fluorescent lights and health effects?

my poor Google skills have failed me - so I turn to the experts.

A co-worker is claiming the flourescent lighting in her office (which has no windows) is making her ill. Not the general flickering or buzzing noise (which I also find annoying - though not health threatening) - but the actual light itself. Nothing specific for symptoms, general fatique, slight depression, trouble concentrating in general, more susceptible to flu/colds etc. etc.

She wants the lighting all replaced, not at her expense of course. Anyone have any sources which might support her contentions or suggest she is imagining this (which is a bit what it seems like - she does have a bit of a history for tending to err towards the woo-woo side on health and other issues).

Any help is much appreciated.

[tim]

Hm. I dunno if there have been any studies on this. I reckon that interior offices with no access to natural daylight are pretty depressing places anyway. Whether the actual light from a flourescent tube has any harmful effect I don't know. I wouldn't have thought so, but then I'm ALWAYS prepared to be wrong.
It may be the artificial lighting is too similar to winter light. I do know that when the days are short, the cloud low, and the light is weak - I feel like s**t! This is very subjective, but I suspect your answer may be in there somewhere! Let us know if you find out. Good luck!

[Hazelip]

Tell her to go rent Joe vs The Volcano.

[garys_2k]

There's nothing magical about fluorescent lighting that can cause poor health, it's just an incomplete spectrum of visible light. However, it can also visibly flicker if used with magnetic ballasts (although that flicker may be mostly noticeable when viewed with periferal vision) and a poor color-rendering index can make things look "bad." Fluorescent lights can cause headaches from those types of things, but there's nothing special about it that could (or does, demonstrably) cause a loss of immune response or anything like that.

Quote:

Originally posted by garys_2k
There's nothing magical about fluorescent lighting that can cause poor health, it's just an incomplete spectrum of visible light. However, it can also visibly flicker if used with magnetic ballasts (although that flicker may be mostly noticeable when viewed with periferal vision) and a poor color-rendering index can make things look "bad." Fluorescent lights can cause headaches from those types of things, but there's nothing special about it that could (or does, demonstrably) cause a loss of immune response or anything like that.

that's pretty much what I thought as well. I'm not fond of them myself for these reasons, but that's a long way from the kind of problems she seems to blame them for.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Do a search in PubMed. Click on "Limits" under the search box. Underneath where it says "Limited to:," change it from "All fields" to "MeSH Terms" In the search text box put "Lighting/adverse effects." You'll get a bunch of hits (not all relevant), including this one. Unless your coworker is a "Salmonella tester strain," I don't think there's much to worry about. Of course you might want to price out Philips bulbs.

Photochem Photobiol 1995 Apr;61(4):353-9 Related Articles, Links

Reversion profiles of coolwhite fluorescent light compared with far ultraviolet light: homologies and differences.

Cebula TA, Henrikson EN, Hartman PE, Biggley WH.

Molecular Biology Branch (HFS-235), CFSAN, FDA, Washington, DC 20204, USA.

General Electric and Sylvania 15 W coolwhite fluorescent lamps emit roughly 6% of their total irradiance as light in the UV spectrum. Illumination of sensitive Salmonella tester strains results in both lethal and mutagenic activities. In contrast, comparable Philips lamps emit lower levels of UV light, especially UVB, and exhibit no detectable lethal or mutagenic effects. The spectra of mutations induced by General Electric coolwhite lamps in histidine-requiring base substitution mutants hisG46 and hisG428 ("reversion profiles") resemble mutagenesis by far UV light (UVC) and differ quite markedly from the spectra of mutations that occur spontaneously. Coolwhite and UVC reversion profiles are not identical, however. The percentage of C to A transversion mutations induced in hisG46 are elevated over those found after UVC treatment, and a strong bias for one particular class of tandem base substitutions (TAA-->TGT) prevails after treatment of hisG428 with coolwhite light, a bias not observed with UVC. Increased attention needs to be given to minimization of exposure to UV light from fluorescent lamps commonly used in homes and workplaces.

thanks for that
I'm fairly certain she is not a Salmonella tester strain, although on some of her bad days there is a resemblance!
But an interesting study none-the-less.

I really am not seeking to call her on this - she is obviously very unhappy and the symptoms, though I'm pretty sure mostly or entirely stress-related, seem real enough. It was more just to assure myself that there was unlikely to be something to her claims.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
Tell her to go rent Joe vs The Volcano.

sorry - haven't seen it and unlikely to; want to explain?

[arcticpenguin]

Maybe the fluorescent light per se isn't making her sick, maybe it's a lack of full spectrum light; perhaps she has Seasonal Affective Disorder. Someone could buy here a $10 incandescent desk lamp and tell her to shut up and get outside once in a while.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

This might be helpful:CCOHS: Lighting Ergonomics - Survey and Solutions. If she's doing alot of computer work, maybe she needs a better (adjustable) chair and/or a foot rest. Sometimes just rearranging the work area can help, too.

[Hazelip]

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad


sorry - haven't seen it and unlikely to; want to explain?

Joe, played by Tom Hanks, claims all sorts of illness and fatigue in the beginning of the movie. He works in a pooly-lit (by fluorescents, and the lighting is played up in the movie) cubicle-entrenched office. His company's doctor, played by Robert Stack, tells him that he has developed an incurable "brain cloud".

Basically, he was just depressed. The bit about the lighting causing illness just made me immediately think of that movie.

[kittynh]

If it's visibly flickering, even a little, it can really bother someone with depression, and can be dangerous for certain types of epilepsy. But, I've heard that its usually just really annoying from my friend that suffers from seasonal depression.

But, at my school they sprung for some smaller Ott lights for the computer users. It's a nicer light. Maybe she should take up smoking and then she would have to go outside every so often to smoke and would get some nice sunlight.

[Soapy Sam]

I recall a library where the combination of fluorescent flicker, near-subsonic air fan hum and turgid reading was guaranteed to put one student in four to sleep inside twenty minutes. No question that a well aired, brightly lit room is more comfortable to work in.
Some folk will feel the effects worse than others. Some of those will ascribe it to the wrong cause.
I agree with the suggestion that she gets a good tungsten anglepoise lamp for her desk. That may be all she needs.

Actually, she had brought in both a floor and desk tungston lamp recently and uses these. Too early to say if they make any difference. My personal opinion is that they won't, unless there is a strong placebo effect perhaps. I haven't mentioned she has a husband she barely talks to (but will probably never divorce), two kids entering their teenage years who she dotes on and of course who are starting to rebel a bit, etc. etc. Thus I think changing her lighting is hardly going to do it!!

P.S. I have an office with one long wall of floor to ceiling windows and lots of natural light (I frequently don't turn on my interior lights). I could of course offer to trade offices with her; let me think about that... millisecond one... millisecond two - ok - done now; ain't happening

[garys_2k]

Of course, if the lights have electronic ballasts you can rule out any "flicker factor." Those operate at about 30 kHz specifically to kill any flicker (thereby increasing their energy efficiency by having a greater "light on" duty cycle with reduced current flow).

[Soapy Sam]

Gary- are those the ones with the buzz of death??

[garys_2k]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Gary- are those the ones with the buzz of death??

Nope. The buzzy ones are magnetic, you're hearing the core iron rattling as it handles the flux. Electronic ones contain an inverter and high frequency oscillator that works well past our hearing range. Maybe fido could be bothered by one, but since there are no magnetic parts inside they should be quiet.

[Agammamon]

An additional problem could be Sick Building Syndrome. Buildings are full of plastics, paints, treated woods, etc. that outgas after installation. With poor air exchange with the outside the vapors/gases can build up. Most people are robust enough to handle the concentrations but some may show symptoms at a lower threshold. Coupled with poor lighting and no exterior view, this may all relate to her problem; course changing the lighting won't help.

You can tell her that I work in the US Navy serving shipboard. Alomost all of my day is (12-20hrs underway) spent indoors with no view of the outside and only cheap flourescent lighting and I know of no colleague who has become ill because of it.

[gnome]

Has anyone here tried those compact fluorescents yet? I have a handful of them in my home, and the experience so far has been generally good.

It seems to give the same quality light, though it takes a few seconds to start, and about half a minute to get to full brightness.

On the up side, I haven't had to replace the lights since I installed them months and months ago.

If you get them, be careful how they fit.. they can tend to protrude over lampshades if they are the wrong size.

Regarding Joe Vs. The Volcano... LOVED it! Though I was curious about the lights... something about sucking the nutrients out of him? Wasn't there also a claim about fluorescent light affecting milk?

[garys_2k]

I use CFs in some outdoor dusk-to-dawn lights. Good service life (years), but a definite decrease in light output in colder weather. In the summer the spiders and moths seem to like them just fine, no evidence of undue insect or arachnid illness or depression.

[Soapy Sam]

Can you be sure the moths didn't commit suicide in the spiders'webs?

Could the problem with cheap flourescents (sic) perhaps be a wheat allergy?

[Souzina]

I have been intrigued by the question of lighting and health for some years, especially the flourescent lighting found in most offices. I sympathise completely with the lady in question and I will explain why. All my life, in some department stores I would find myself feeling weird after about 5 minutes of being there. I felt tense, suddenly drained of energy and almost anxious to get out but in the beginning I had no idea why. Some years ago I began work in an office and immediately began to get regular headaches (I almost never got them before). All the women mentioned they had headaches and laughed it off as stress of the job. Then one day I had a violent migraine, with blurred vision and sickness for the first time in my life. I also noticed that when the office lights were off I felt completely relaxed and much happier. After the second migraine I asked my boss to remove just the stong light directly above my workstation - which he did very reluctantly. I never had a headache after that and though it was better when colleagues allowed my to turn all the lights of it was an improvement. I also realised that it was the lights in the department stores that make me feel terrible. I have no doubt of this and now avoid the flourescent lights. I would say that slight anxiety and depression are symptoms for me along with the headaches, though only whilst in that enviroment, once out I feel relief and normality again. I believe that depression, stress, anxiety etc all have an affect in the long term. I see no reason, though I'm not a doctor or a scientest, why general poor health could not be caused in certain people who spend a lot of time under these lights. Obviously not everyone is affected and therefore some of us may be more sensitive to light than others. Anyway I'm glad finally to know that I'm not the only one who believes this!

[kevin]

Flickering fluorescents are made worse when used with a CRT monitors that refresh at a harmony of 120Hz (the flicker rate of the lights). Typically setting a CRT to 70, 72 or over 120Hz (if possible) helps. LCD monitors don't have this problem.

Personally I find that too much light (of any type) shining in my eyes gives me a headache. The area of the building I'm in is severly overlit so I frequently wear a baseball cap to shield my eyes. I also dim my monitor, many people run at full brightness unnecessarily.

The absolute best light design I've seen is indirect lighting (lighting is hung from the ceiling and pointed up, lighting the space by reflecting off the ceiling). With no point/line sources of light my eyes are more at ease in these environments. I also prefer the trend of reducing over all room lighting and providing task lighting at the desks instead.

[blutoski]

Originally Posted by gnome

Has anyone here tried those compact fluorescents yet? I have a handful of them in my home, and the experience so far has been generally good.

It seems to give the same quality light, though it takes a few seconds to start, and about half a minute to get to full brightness.

There are different types, as well. There are 'warm' and 'white' varieties, which are appropriate for different environments. I use the 'white' for photographing specimens, so I don't have to correct for the yellow in warm varieties, but I find the white bulbs are too intense for reading.

I have replaced all my incandescents with cf bulbs, and have not had to replace a bulb in three years. According to the specs, I can probably go a couple more. Two more benefits: they use about 70% less juice, so I'm looking at some overall savings, and secondly, they're more efficient, so I can get tons of decent illumination without cooking the lamp or heating up the room. Those Ikea gooseneck lamps wouldn't fare well with a 120W incandescent, but the equivalent 30W cf works just fine.

[Soapy Sam]

I maintain the worst thing about fluorescent lighting is spelling it.

Why is the "uo" combination so hard for people?

[casebro]

Manufacturors make fluorescents in many different colors. Try a local store named something like "Light Bulb Emporium", they will usully have a differnt wavelength in every socket. You wouldn't know it til you see them in that context that the color range is from blue to orange. I think some are even called 'daylight'. They get pricey, but one tube has to be cheaper than a couple lamps. Just think of the placebo effect of the "Special Anti-Depressive Electomagnetic Quantum Vibrations" it will generate!

eta, I've got myself convinced! I gotta go to the light bulb store NOW! It's a matter of live and death!

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

I maintain the worst thing about fluorescent lighting is spelling it.

Why is the "uo" combination so hard for people?

How many other words are there with it? Fluorine is the same root, right?

[richardm]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

How many other words are there with it? Fluorine is the same root, right?

I'm ambiguous about quoting this. It's arduous to find a list of words and frankly I'm so languorous this morning I can't be bothered, in all ingenuousness. Perhaps in the afternoon I'll feel more buoyant, and have a go, assuming it turns out to be a not-too-strenuous task. (although of course I'm being presumptuous in assuming nobody else will do it, it's not as though I have a quota to fill)

[Mr. Scott]

Originally Posted by gnome

Has anyone here tried those compact fluorescents yet? I have a handful of them in my home, and the experience so far has been generally good.

The light from warm color compact fluorescents is almost indistinguishable from tungsten lights IMO. Perfectly happy with them. My home is now 95% tungsten-free. Don't like the color of the cool white ones. I have warm ones in every room in the house, and cheap cool ones in hallways and closets I spend little time in. Electric bill very low. Seldom change bulbs.

Most of the good ones turn on instantly at around 75% brightness. Some flicker for a second at turn-on and others I've seen start at 25% brightness and don't get near full brightness until after a minute or so of warmup -- really annoying.

You can find the cool white ones at dollar stores. At an Asian Food Market I found excellent warm light compacts for about $1.30 each.

[Red Siegfried]

I had a COWorker who claimed that fluorescent lights "steal the vitamins out of your body." When I pinned her down on the trying to explain the mechanism for this, she couldn't, but persisted in saying it was true. When I asked her how she knew if it was true if she didn't know how it worked she said "Well, gravity works and no one knows how." When I pointed out that it's a false analogy she started crying.

Gee, guess I'm a bastard for not believing it. That, and honey and vinegar doesn't cure you of a cold by adjusting your PH balance. Whatever.

Sure, if you're not getting the full spectrum of sunlight your body may not be able to manufacture all the vitamin D3 it needs, but I hardly think that vitamins are evaporating out of your skin into the air under office lighting.

Even if that were the case, a daily multivitamin should provide everything you need.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

I maintain the worst thing about fluorescent lighting is spelling it.

Why is the "uo" combination so hard for people?

Because people always confuse Fluorine, the highly reactive gas, with Flourine, the element used to make bread.

[marting]

Fluorescent lights do have pretty peaky spectra. Even high color rendition index lamps are spikey, just less so, or have a broader distribution of spikes which tends to make better for color accuracy.

CRI's greater than 90 are the best choices - but pricy. Cool whites are pretty bad, are actually much more yellow than sunlight (4000K correlated temp instead of 5000K) but have awful color rendition. Especially for reds which turn extremely dull.

An extreme example is this: There are an infinite number of just two monochrome wavelengths that, when illuminating a white paper will look just as white as the same paper illuminated by sunlight*. Illuminating a scene with them will produce horrid results. This can be a sort of fun thing to do by mixing the light from two, well chosen LEDs.

*Unless you are female and a quadrachrome, that is.

[Silver Lining]

I work in an office that used to have really bright fluorescent lights and I always got migranes from them.

I did some research online and found that placing certain diffuser panels over the fluorescent lighting helps cut down on migranes, eye problems, etc. So I talked to my boss and she ended up getting some with pictures of clouds on them. They were really nice.

Right after we had them installed, I noticed such relief from the constant headaches! Even co-workers have commented how much more soothing the light is, now that it's not glaring above our heads.

The ones we have are Skypanels, or something like that, but we found them on Google. There are plenty of companies out there, just make sure you do your research!

Hope this helps!

[Rolfe]

What, that it will echo down the years and still be heard?

It's not Hallowe'en for a couple of weeks. What's with the zombie thread?

Rolfe.

[casebro]

New member, possible spammer?

Can moderators check his lurking history- if any?

[Andrew Wiggin]

Hey, at least he posted in an existing thread. Give him credit for that, if not for the thread necromancy.

A

[Madalch]

Nothing wrong with a bit of thread necromancy.

Arise thread!!! Rise out of your grave and do my bidding!!

[Peter i]

I had a "scare" with CFs a week ago.

I had a Geiger counter lying under one, and it triggered the alarm

When holding the counter close to the CF, it stopped counting, an just beeped and read "EVACUATE IMMEDIATELY" in the display.



I got hold of another counter (of newer manufacture and higher price) and it did not react to the CFs at all.
Guess it was simply a case of electromagnetic interference.



(It could become a great urban legend!)

[BobHaulk]

My mother who started working in a library about six years ago developed a tick in her left eye and we wondered if the lighting was to blame, well she retired three months ago and her eye tick has all but stopped. It's went from ticking every few seconds to maybe once or twice an hour. She developed the tick within a month of starting there, so who knows but it does seem that it might have had something to do with it. Previously she had never worked under fluorescent lighting.

[Molinaro]

It would be interesting to know what kind of light levels are maintained in the homes of the people who find fluorescent lighting bothersome. Do they keep the lighting off when they watch tv? Do they prefer darker environments and the bright lighting of the office environment is a strong contrast?