Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project

[bwinwright]

I have been going on and on about all of the crime, government corruption, war for profit, etc. for quite some time. Someone in this forum asked me what I think needs to be done to make things better?

Well, about a month ago, let's say sometime in June of 2009, I was listening to Peter Joseph of Zeitgeist fame talking about this guy names JACQUE FRESCO and his VENUS PROJECT.

After several years of research centering around 9/11, who did it, the Rothschilds, the Jesuits, etc.,studying the research of literally hundreds of sources, I had never heard of this guy Fresco. I guess all I was learning was about the crime and corruption industry.

I Googled him and watched several videos, listened to him talk for several hours, and I was impressed. I know a lot of you hate me for my views, especially about Darwin, Atheism, and The Black Pope but I can not control how people feel.

I simply write about the things I find interesting and perhaps true too. I try to always have at least three sources to support any information I use. I have just done a lot more homework than most and have uncovered information many have never considered before. And for all of us ego-maniacs, if we've never heard it before then it can't possibly be true.

In my opinion, this guy Fresco is a Genius. He is the most positive and constructive scientist and thinker I have ever heard. He believes we should have a resource based economy, not one based on money.

The entire time he was talking I kept thinking that he looks as if he could have been James Randi's father. Fresco is 93 and a pure scientist. Like James Randi, Fresco has also debunked frauds trying to cheat people with their ESP tricks. Fresco doesn't have time for any religious mumbo-jumbo either.

Hopefully, one day in the near future, some or many of Fresco's ideas will become a reality because he paints a really beautiful picture of what life could actually be like for all of us.

Check him out and tell me what you think.

[ArmillarySphere]

Had a look a while ago. I'll post my summary of what it's about, based on reading the website:

The Venus Project is a utopian fantasy. The FAQ is a joke - none of the potential problems of such a system are dealt with, except to say either:

1) Oh, noone would do *that* (denial)
2) Money is bad and brainwashes people, yadda yadda (avoiding the question)
3) Robots (handwaving)
4) *More* robots (... with little flags)


To answer the general issue of resource-based economies: In short, it only works if the people involved have changed so much from what we are today that they're hardly recognizable as human. Any system that denies greed as a motivating factor is at best tragically misguided, and doomed to be outcompeted by systems that acknowledge and use that motivation.

When given an absolutely free choice of what to do with their lives, (including nothing whatsoever), many people will choose to party, travel, slack &c. The few who are mainly motivated to be creative will spend their time on what seems interesting or entertaining, not on what's actually needed or appreciated by anyone else. Those things sometimes coincide, but far from always. To make people actually contribute to what society needs requires some sort of coercion/reward, either social (works for small groups) or monetary (for larger ones).

Sorry, but that's the world for you.

[Foster Zygote]

I thought 9/11 was perpetrated by the RAND Corporation and the Reverse Vampires.

[Toke]

Have you tried reading William morris "utopia", it´s pretty old but outlines a society that would work with perfect people living in it. That is the main/only problem of utopian societies.

James Randi as a scientist?
He is a stage magician, and offended by anyone claiming more than trickery to their act.

[Earthborn]

As I said in another thread, all you need to know about the Venus Project can be found on its shop page. Want to know how a moneyless society would function? Buy a 24 minute video for $20. Get the book "The Best That Money Can't Buy" for only $24.95. How about a mini-poster for just $100 ?

It seems to me like a hightech version of the old scam "Your money is cursed. To lift that curse, send it to me."

Quote:

Any system that denies greed as a motivating factor is at best tragically misguided, and doomed to be outcompeted by systems that acknowledge and use that motivation.

The only greed that dooms this system is that of Jacques Fresco and company.

[Ysidro]

There's another thread on this rediculousness elsewhere. I don't care enough to run Search for anyone interested, but it's there.

[Sunray Breaker]

I think when discussing Fresco, it is wise to examine his entire body of work and not just his personal ideals.

After all, I thought his ideas of placing radar in vehicles, with computer mapped nervous systems and memory shape alloy (to help easily repair damage and reduce accidents) was a really neat idea.

Designing vehicles so that they CAN'T hit one another.

I also liked his ideas about reconsidering some things that science can fix, to remove the need for a law against it.

(technocracy had an idea like this involving doors on subways that ONLY open after payment, to dramatically reduce people trying to skip fares)

That is a good approach to at least SOME problems in society.

Sort of like the solution of putting in traffic lights to minimize traffic accidents as opposed to creating tougher laws as a deterrent.

I think to completely dismiss Fresco as a Utopianist (even if that is his general outlook) and to not look into his actual scientific contributions would be a bit negligent.

To get a better idea of Jacque Fresco (without the Zeitgeist woo) I recommend watching Future By Design. It talks more about his actual inventions and ideas and their applicablity as opposed to idealistic utopian fantasies.

The Venus Project as a whole does have some flaws, but I don't think that ALL of the ideas it promotes are irrelevant.

I would like to see a truly critical breakdown of his inventions as opposed to his politicsal ideals

Suggestions? Comments?

[Piscivore]

Originally Posted by bwinwright

...war for profit...

What war hasn't ultimately been about control of resources?

[ScumbagStyle]

So this guy is obviously the science equivalent of Oral Roberts. Fine, not to be trusted. But has anyone that has read more than me on the subject found he has any solutions? Or is he just throwing out a bunch of talking points that a 3rd grader could spout like "war and car crashes are bad" and "robots are cool"? I am genuinely curious, not being a prick. Consider me the guy that didn't do his homework because he saw the end coming a mile away, and now has to write a book report.

[sadhatter]

Why is it all these people that say money is evil, and useless, or not real, etc.

Ask you for money.

That is kind of like me telling your your sandwhich is going to taste like crap, so give me half so you won't have to deal with eating the entire thing.

[advancedatheist]

Fresco sounds like the "Austrian economists" who say that fiat money will become worthless any day now, so use it to buy the gold coins they sell.

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by ScumbagStyle

has anyone that has read more than me on the subject found he has any solutions?

He has some cute architectural designs (he is a professional architect anyway), which might explain why he has been able to impress more followers than many others who teach smilar Leftist doctrines. Moneyless society is not a new idea, Marx wrote about it I think.

[Bob Blaylock]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Moneyless society is not a new idea, Marx wrote about it I think.

Based on what I've heard of The Venus Project and related proposals, it seems to me like it could well be described as “Marxism version 2.0”. It seems to be based on the same core philosophies as Marxism, including the same disproven assumptions about human nature—with some feeble attempts to correct some superficial notions of why Marxism in its original form has failed so horribly everywhere it's been tried.

[ClarkDickensen]

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

Based on what I've heard of The Venus Project and related proposals, it seems to me like it could well be described as “Marxism version 2.0”. It seems to be based on the same core philosophies as Marxism, including the same disproven assumptions about human nature—with some feeble attempts to correct some superficial notions of why Marxism in its original form has failed so horribly everywhere it's been tried.

Like nowhere?

Hm, wanted my first post to be something more constructive - but Marxism in its "original form" has never been tried.

You could argue that Marxism is pretty much useless without a clear design of economic distribution and administration of the state, but that's still something else than saying "It didn't work" or blaming the semi-religious concept of "human nature", which seems to be quite dominant in the VP discussions over here. Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed.

There's stuff wrong with Fresco's idea (i.e. computers making political decisions and confusing future- vs. present oriented action), but I haven't seen any data on human nature being a problem yet.

[Bob Blaylock]

Originally Posted by ClarkDickensen

…but Marxism in its "original form" has never been tried.

I suppose it's a matter of definition. Certainly, there have been many attempts to create societies based on Marxism. In every instance, these societies quickly went very far astray from the manner in which Marx described that they should.

You could claim, therefore, that none of these societies ever actually constituted an attempt to implement true Marxism, because they so quickly strayed from it.

But by that logic, in order to claim that any society has tried to implement true Marxism, you'd have to be able to point to a society that not only started out on Marxist principles, but which was much more successful than any have so far been in staying true to these principles for a longer period of time. This hasn't happened. This isn't ever going to happen.

Marxism depends on assumptions about human nature that have been repeatedly, solidly proven to be false; and for this reason, every society that has started out on Marxist principles has quickly gone astray, with tragic results. Marxism 2.0—“The Venus Project”—can only ever fail, for exactly the same reason.

[ClarkDickensen]

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

I suppose it's a matter of definition. Certainly, there have been many attempts to create societies based on Marxism. In every instance, these societies quickly went very far astray from the manner in which Marx described that they should.

Well, besides the soviet union there hasn't even been an attempt to address money as an end of production - and the former one failed miserably at eliminating it, as they just terminated money completely and wondered why people didn't continue dirty jobs. Well, not that much surprise there.

The first problem I have with Marxism is that Russia did not have the industrial standards to reach communism, nor was it able to manage the central calculations for productions. Both issues would be easily solvable today with computer technology and global industry - but you can't see all the holes in the road to Marx' Communism with Russia crashing after the first two.

I refuse to even debate China or Korea, they're as communism as the deutsche demokratische republik was democratic or a republic. It's state capitalism, and quite successful when looking at China, but I don't see any practical correlation to Marx' Kapital.

Quote:

But by that logic, in order to claim that any society has tried to implement true Marxism, you'd have to be able to point to a society that not only started out on Marxist principles, but which was much more successful than any have so far been in staying true to these principles for a longer period of time. This hasn't happened. This isn't ever going to happen.

The last sentence is speculation without reference to actual assumptions by Marx. Some read things like "people are generally good" into his works, which aren't really there. Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a communist, although I agree with his critique of money being a illogical "goal" of society.

Personally, I'm not that interested in "true" Marxism, I just like to keep the things he had right and reject the things he had wrong or failed to focus on, without projecting ideological stuff into his work. Sadly, economics is becoming more ideology than science, including Marxism as well as Capitalism.

To get back on topic: Tried to communicate such things with the guys around Fresco, got quite a bunch of people together, but the leaders of the movement seem to be completely uninterested in actually changing something and just continue their mission for awareness, while admitting that the Zeitgeist Movement is popular mainly due to the infamous first movie.

Kinda like trying to build the greatest building ever by hiring random people from the street 'cause it's easier.

[Manopolus]

Originally Posted by bwinwright

I Googled him and watched several videos, listened to him talk for several hours, and I was impressed. I know a lot of you hate me for my views, especially about Darwin, Atheism, and The Black Pope but I can not control how people feel.

No one hates you for your views, bwin. You are paranoid. For more paranoid adventures, I would suggest reading "The Unseen Hand" by Ralph Epperson -- Then again, I suspect you already have.