Of red wine, and letting it "breathe"

GlennB · 8th July 2009, 10:31 AM

We hear that bottles of red wine should be unstoppered and left to 'breathe' for 60 mins or more before drinking. More advanced technique is to decant it, which makes sense as the area of the surface is greatly increased in a decanter, and the pouring itself aerates the wine. We hear that pros reckon this can make a profound difference to the taste.

But - my biology teacher (circa 1965) taught us that diffusion of gas into liquid operates in a logarithmic fashion, as I recall . It's efficient over 1mm, OK over 2mm, but 20cms would take centuries or similar. Which is why a small fish in a full wine bottle of water would soon expire. And why any creature over about 2mm thick cannot rely on diffusion and needs an active ventilation system.

So - how does wine 'breathe' ? Is it wine cognoscenti techno-babble or is there something to it?

wackyvorlon · 8th July 2009, 10:37 AM

The potential is they're looking for it to oxidize, which would proceed via a different mechanism.

roger · 8th July 2009, 10:54 AM

I don't know much about it, but this article recommends a breathing time of 24 to 48 hours if you are going to bother to do it at all, for the reasons you state.

edit: pretty much all the googling I've done says it's complete nonsense. It is perhaps worthwhile for a really young wine with a lot of tannins, but you have to really aerate it - decant, pour from a great height, let sit in a glass, etc. Removing a cork does nothing.

casebro · 8th July 2009, 11:02 AM

Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid.

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">

GlennB · 8th July 2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid.

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">

I can well believe the foamy venturi gismo. Far from the same as pouring and leaving though. Will 'convection currents' save the fish in the bottle?

ponderingturtle · 8th July 2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

I can well believe the foamy venturi gismo. Far from the same as pouring and leaving though. Will 'convection currents' save the fish in the bottle?

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

alexi_drago · 8th July 2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

Nah, it'll wake up back in it's own bowl with no idea how it got there.

HarryKeogh · 8th July 2009, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

Unless, of course, it can drink like a fish.

wackyvorlon · 8th July 2009, 11:18 AM

Some time ago, I had an aquarium with live plants. I used the fermentation of yeast to produce CO2 for the plants. At one point, a cat knocked the fermentation vessel over, and the sugar/yeast/alcohol mix was driven into the tank. Killed the vast majority of the fish.

GlennB · 8th July 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

Thanks for the instant derail, ponderingturtle. Check the o/p and then try to be coherent if that's OK.

MG1962 · 8th July 2009, 11:26 AM

My understanding of letting as wine breathe is as much to do with odor as anything. Wine is as much in the smell as in the actual taste

GlennB · 8th July 2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by wackyvorlon

Some time ago, I had an aquarium with live plants. I used the fermentation of yeast to produce CO2 for the plants. At one point, a cat knocked the fermentation vessel over, and the sugar/yeast/alcohol mix was driven into the tank. Killed the vast majority of the fish.

Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.

casebro · 8th July 2009, 01:06 PM

He probably just wanted to give his fish headaches.

ZirconBlue · 8th July 2009, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by wackyvorlon

The potential is they're looking for it to oxidize, which would proceed via a different mechanism.

I thought oxidation was bad for wine. That's why an open bottle of wine doesn't keep very well.

Originally Posted by casebro

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

IIRC, Cooks' Illustrated tested one of these devices recently, and gave it a thumbs up.

Originally Posted by casebro

He probably just wanted to give his fish headaches.

I'm sure they had it coming.

TheDaver · 8th July 2009, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

My understanding of letting as wine breathe is as much to do with odor as anything. Wine is as much in the smell as in the actual taste

A lot of food and drink is, really.

“Flavour” is a combination of taste and smell. Things can taste really weird when you have a bad head cold or right after you’ve brushed your teeth.

wackyvorlon · 8th July 2009, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.

It may very possibly be an erroneous perception, but the plants did seem to grow much better with the CO2 enrichment.

BenBurch · 8th July 2009, 03:21 PM

I have heard it expressed that a little oxygen gets in to the wine and enhances the flavor and some of the sulfur volatiles have a chance to escape.

paximperium · 8th July 2009, 03:54 PM

Letting a wine "breathe" does several distinct things. It lets some measure of oxidation and changes some of the the underlying chemistry of the wine and it also lets some of the alcohol evaporate. Its needs at least 1 day of doing so but I've read some require 2-3 days at times.

The flavor and aroma of wine changes the longer it "breathes" and depending on the wine, some of the more "tannin" and harsher wines mellow out a bit with breathing. Truthfully, the only time most wine fellas ever "breathe" their wine if you want to drink a young wine to mellow out the harsher flavors.

Personally, it you want to drink a young harsh wine, go make a sangria.

paximperium · 8th July 2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I have heard it expressed that a little oxygen gets in to the wine and enhances the flavor and some of the sulfur volatiles have a chance to escape.

The recommendation is to place the wine in a decanter and rigorously swirl it for it to pick air. I guess it kind of makes sense if you have young cheap wines you know you're going to use as table wine with your dinner in the next 2-3 days.

paximperium · 8th July 2009, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

I thought oxidation was bad for wine. That's why an open bottle of wine doesn't keep very well.

it isn't necessarily bad, most wines keeps for 2-3days after you uncork it. The problem is that for subtle and older wines, "breathing" just makes the wine taste flat...but then I never have any leftovers.

DavidS · 8th July 2009, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.

CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. Given sufficient light and other nutrients, CO2 augmentation can definitely contribute to plant growth. Beside their own pleasing appearance, actively growing plants can consume much of the nitrogen and phosphorous that would otherwise accumulate in solution as byproducts of the fishes' metabolism.

In my tank, without CO2 augmentation nitrate levels rise continuously, pH hovers near 8, and plant growth seems sluggish. With strong lighting and CO2 augmentation (a couple-three bubbles every couple-three seconds, enough to hold the pH in the 6.6-7.0 range [a few minutes' aeration raises it to 8-ish]), the plants routinely need trimming and I can't find enough nitrate (nor nitrite nor ammonia) to measure with an aquarium test kit. My qualitative perception of plant growth is arguably subjective, but the impact of CO2 augmentation on nitrogen consumption is quantitatively measurable.

And the fish, including a small school of cardinal tetras seem to be fine with it. A school of rift lake cichlids more accustomed to hard water at pH 8 might be a different story.

FramerDave · 8th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid.

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">

Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?

On a side note, a couple months ago I had a long (fruitless) discussion with an otherwise intelligent brother in law about magnetic wine agers. He wasn't much interested in double blind testing. He suckered a sister in law into buying one too.

casebro · 8th July 2009, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by DavidS

CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. Given sufficient light and other nutrients, CO2 augmentation can definitely contribute to plant growth. Beside their own pleasing appearance, actively growing plants can consume much of the nitrogen and phosphorous that would otherwise accumulate in solution as byproducts of the fishes' metabolism.

In my tank, without CO2 augmentation nitrate levels rise continuously, pH hovers near 8, and plant growth seems sluggish. With strong lighting and CO2 augmentation (a couple-three bubbles every couple-three seconds, enough to hold the pH in the 6.6-7.0 range [a few minutes' aeration raises it to 8-ish]), the plants routinely need trimming and I can't find enough nitrate (nor nitrite nor ammonia) to measure with an aquarium test kit. My qualitative perception of plant growth is arguably subjective, but the impact of CO2 augmentation on nitrogen consumption is quantitatively measurable.

And the fish, including a small school of cardinal tetras seem to be fine with it. A school of rift lake cichlids more accustomed to hard water at pH 8 might be a different story.

And you forgot to even mention the effects of the homebrew on the aquarium owner. Beer or wine?

paximperium · 8th July 2009, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?

A wine decanter works.

ImaginalDisc · 8th July 2009, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by FramerDave

Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?

On a side note, a couple months ago I had a long (fruitless) discussion with an otherwise intelligent brother in law about magnetic wine agers. He wasn't much interested in double blind testing. He suckered a sister in law into buying one too.

The problem there is that almost all red wines have some particulate matter in them, so if you agitate them too agressively it'll taste gritty.

BenBurch · 8th July 2009, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

The problem there is that almost all red wines have some particulate matter in them, so if you agitate them too agressively it'll taste gritty.

Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.

ImaginalDisc · 8th July 2009, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.

Well, yes. But, the question was "Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?"

Damien Evans · 8th July 2009, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.

Which is what decanting is really for anyway.

SezMe · 8th July 2009, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

We <snip>

Who's "we"?

GlennB · 9th July 2009, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Who's "we"?

Just the general public, really.

GlennB · 9th July 2009, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by DavidS

CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. .....

Ah OK. I'll remember this if I ever get back into fish keeping. Is fermentation the usual method, or is it favoured because the home-brew is a useful by product?

Toke · 9th July 2009, 04:44 AM

With some wines I pour it from as high as possible into a emty waterjug, then back in the bottle. It gives a difference within ½hour or more.

Knowing what wines will benefit is mostly trial and error, for me.

DavidS · 9th July 2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

Beer or wine?

False dichotomy^WP -- Why not both? Is there no room for Scotch in the world? If I gotta pick just one, it's beer (YMMV). I don't let it breathe; I doubt it would help, but mostly I just don't wanna wait.

Originally Posted by GlennB

Ah OK. I'll remember this if I ever get back into fish keeping. Is fermentation the usual method, or is it favoured because the home-brew is a useful by product?

For adding CO2 to an aquarium, fermentation is a useful method that doesn't cost much to try. After a year or so of mixing brew every few weeks, I switched to bottled CO2 for convenience and longevity. Much good info here.

The resulting liquor isn't very useful. If you want to brew for consumption or ethanol production, do that also or instead. If you want something good to drink, learn to do that well or buy from somebody who already does.

8th July 2009, 10:31 AM	#1
GlennB Li'l darlin' Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 2,542	Of red wine, and letting it "breathe" We hear that bottles of red wine should be unstoppered and left to 'breathe' for 60 mins or more before drinking. More advanced technique is to decant it, which makes sense as the area of the surface is greatly increased in a decanter, and the pouring itself aerates the wine. We hear that pros reckon this can make a profound difference to the taste. But - my biology teacher (circa 1965) taught us that diffusion of gas into liquid operates in a logarithmic fashion, as I recall . It's efficient over 1mm, OK over 2mm, but 20cms would take centuries or similar. Which is why a small fish in a full wine bottle of water would soon expire. And why any creature over about 2mm thick cannot rely on diffusion and needs an active ventilation system. So - how does wine 'breathe' ? Is it wine cognoscenti techno-babble or is there something to it?

8th July 2009, 10:54 AM	#3
roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 7,872	I don't know much about it, but this article recommends a breathing time of 24 to 48 hours if you are going to bother to do it at all, for the reasons you state. edit: pretty much all the googling I've done says it's complete nonsense. It is perhaps worthwhile for a really young wine with a lot of tannins, but you have to really aerate it - decant, pour from a great height, let sit in a glass, etc. Removing a cork does nothing.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir Last edited by roger; 8th July 2009 at 11:00 AM.

8th July 2009, 11:02 AM	#4
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid. There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow. ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts. Last edited by casebro; 8th July 2009 at 11:06 AM.

8th July 2009, 11:14 AM	#6
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by GlennB I can well believe the foamy venturi gismo. Far from the same as pouring and leaving though. Will 'convection currents' save the fish in the bottle? Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.
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8th July 2009, 11:17 AM	#7
alexi_drago Muse Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 503	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly. Nah, it'll wake up back in it's own bowl with no idea how it got there.
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8th July 2009, 10:37 AM	#2
wackyvorlon Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sarnia, ON, Canada Posts: 317	The potential is they're looking for it to oxidize, which would proceed via a different mechanism.

8th July 2009, 11:11 AM	#5
GlennB Li'l darlin' Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 2,542	Originally Posted by casebro Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid. There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow. ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test"> I can well believe the foamy venturi gismo. Far from the same as pouring and leaving though. Will 'convection currents' save the fish in the bottle?

8th July 2009, 11:18 AM	#8
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 10,717	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly. Unless, of course, it can drink like a fish.

8th July 2009, 11:22 AM	#10
GlennB Li'l darlin' Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 2,542	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly. Thanks for the instant derail, ponderingturtle. Check the o/p and then try to be coherent if that's OK.

8th July 2009, 11:26 AM	#11
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	My understanding of letting as wine breathe is as much to do with odor as anything. Wine is as much in the smell as in the actual taste
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031

8th July 2009, 11:28 AM	#12
GlennB Li'l darlin' Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 2,542	Originally Posted by wackyvorlon Some time ago, I had an aquarium with live plants. I used the fermentation of yeast to produce CO2 for the plants. At one point, a cat knocked the fermentation vessel over, and the sugar/yeast/alcohol mix was driven into the tank. Killed the vast majority of the fish. Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.

8th July 2009, 01:06 PM	#13
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	He probably just wanted to give his fish headaches.
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

8th July 2009, 01:19 PM	#14
ZirconBlue Your Last Cup of Sorrow Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Zebulon, North Carolina Posts: 4,549	Originally Posted by wackyvorlon The potential is they're looking for it to oxidize, which would proceed via a different mechanism. I thought oxidation was bad for wine. That's why an open bottle of wine doesn't keep very well. Originally Posted by casebro There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow. IIRC, Cooks' Illustrated tested one of these devices recently, and gave it a thumbs up. Originally Posted by casebro He probably just wanted to give his fish headaches. I'm sure they had it coming.
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8th July 2009, 01:25 PM	#15
TheDaver hairy farting brute Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 825	Originally Posted by MG1962 My understanding of letting as wine breathe is as much to do with odor as anything. Wine is as much in the smell as in the actual taste A lot of food and drink is, really. “Flavour” is a combination of taste and smell. Things can taste really weird when you have a bad head cold or right after you’ve brushed your teeth.

8th July 2009, 01:48 PM	#16
wackyvorlon Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sarnia, ON, Canada Posts: 317	Originally Posted by GlennB Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water. It may very possibly be an erroneous perception, but the plants did seem to grow much better with the CO2 enrichment.

8th July 2009, 03:21 PM	#17
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,782	I have heard it expressed that a little oxygen gets in to the wine and enhances the flavor and some of the sulfur volatiles have a chance to escape.
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8th July 2009, 03:54 PM	#18
paximperium Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 7,800	Letting a wine "breathe" does several distinct things. It lets some measure of oxidation and changes some of the the underlying chemistry of the wine and it also lets some of the alcohol evaporate. Its needs at least 1 day of doing so but I've read some require 2-3 days at times. The flavor and aroma of wine changes the longer it "breathes" and depending on the wine, some of the more "tannin" and harsher wines mellow out a bit with breathing. Truthfully, the only time most wine fellas ever "breathe" their wine if you want to drink a young wine to mellow out the harsher flavors. Personally, it you want to drink a young harsh wine, go make a sangria.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

8th July 2009, 03:58 PM	#19
paximperium Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 7,800	Originally Posted by BenBurch I have heard it expressed that a little oxygen gets in to the wine and enhances the flavor and some of the sulfur volatiles have a chance to escape. The recommendation is to place the wine in a decanter and rigorously swirl it for it to pick air. I guess it kind of makes sense if you have young cheap wines you know you're going to use as table wine with your dinner in the next 2-3 days.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

8th July 2009, 04:00 PM	#20
paximperium Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 7,800	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue I thought oxidation was bad for wine. That's why an open bottle of wine doesn't keep very well. it isn't necessarily bad, most wines keeps for 2-3days after you uncork it. The problem is that for subtle and older wines, "breathing" just makes the wine taste flat...but then I never have any leftovers.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

8th July 2009, 07:23 PM	#21
DavidS Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 256	Originally Posted by GlennB Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water. CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. Given sufficient light and other nutrients, CO2 augmentation can definitely contribute to plant growth. Beside their own pleasing appearance, actively growing plants can consume much of the nitrogen and phosphorous that would otherwise accumulate in solution as byproducts of the fishes' metabolism. In my tank, without CO2 augmentation nitrate levels rise continuously, pH hovers near 8, and plant growth seems sluggish. With strong lighting and CO2 augmentation (a couple-three bubbles every couple-three seconds, enough to hold the pH in the 6.6-7.0 range [a few minutes' aeration raises it to 8-ish]), the plants routinely need trimming and I can't find enough nitrate (nor nitrite nor ammonia) to measure with an aquarium test kit. My qualitative perception of plant growth is arguably subjective, but the impact of CO2 augmentation on nitrogen consumption is quantitatively measurable. And the fish, including a small school of cardinal tetras seem to be fine with it. A school of rift lake cichlids more accustomed to hard water at pH 8 might be a different story.
DavidS Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 256

8th July 2009, 08:23 PM	#22
FramerDave Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 497	Originally Posted by casebro Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid. There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow. ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test"> Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same? On a side note, a couple months ago I had a long (fruitless) discussion with an otherwise intelligent brother in law about magnetic wine agers. He wasn't much interested in double blind testing. He suckered a sister in law into buying one too.
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8th July 2009, 09:59 PM	#23
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	Originally Posted by DavidS CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. Given sufficient light and other nutrients, CO2 augmentation can definitely contribute to plant growth. Beside their own pleasing appearance, actively growing plants can consume much of the nitrogen and phosphorous that would otherwise accumulate in solution as byproducts of the fishes' metabolism. In my tank, without CO2 augmentation nitrate levels rise continuously, pH hovers near 8, and plant growth seems sluggish. With strong lighting and CO2 augmentation (a couple-three bubbles every couple-three seconds, enough to hold the pH in the 6.6-7.0 range [a few minutes' aeration raises it to 8-ish]), the plants routinely need trimming and I can't find enough nitrate (nor nitrite nor ammonia) to measure with an aquarium test kit. My qualitative perception of plant growth is arguably subjective, but the impact of CO2 augmentation on nitrogen consumption is quantitatively measurable. And the fish, including a small school of cardinal tetras seem to be fine with it. A school of rift lake cichlids more accustomed to hard water at pH 8 might be a different story. And you forgot to even mention the effects of the homebrew on the aquarium owner. Beer or wine?
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

8th July 2009, 10:03 PM	#24
paximperium Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 7,800	Originally Posted by FramerDave Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same? A wine decanter works.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

8th July 2009, 10:07 PM	#25
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,049	Originally Posted by FramerDave Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same? On a side note, a couple months ago I had a long (fruitless) discussion with an otherwise intelligent brother in law about magnetic wine agers. He wasn't much interested in double blind testing. He suckered a sister in law into buying one too. The problem there is that almost all red wines have some particulate matter in them, so if you agitate them too agressively it'll taste gritty.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

8th July 2009, 10:23 PM	#26
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,782	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc The problem there is that almost all red wines have some particulate matter in them, so if you agitate them too agressively it'll taste gritty. Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

8th July 2009, 10:24 PM	#27
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,049	Originally Posted by BenBurch Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two. Well, yes. But, the question was "Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?"
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

8th July 2009, 11:03 PM	#28
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 11,681	Originally Posted by BenBurch Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two. Which is what decanting is really for anyway.
	__________________ And down by Kosciusko, where the pine-clad ridges raise; Their torn and rugged battlements on high, Where the air is clear as crystal, and the white stars fairly blaze; At midnight in the cold and frosty sky, And where around the Overflow the reed-beds sweep and sway; To the breezes, and the rolling plains are wide, The Man from Snowy River is a household word today, And the stockmen tell the story of his ride.

8th July 2009, 11:58 PM	#29
SezMe Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 9,129	Originally Posted by GlennB We <snip> Who's "we"?

9th July 2009, 12:53 AM	#30
GlennB Li'l darlin' Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 2,542	Originally Posted by SezMe Who's "we"? Just the general public, really.

9th July 2009, 01:06 AM	#31
GlennB Li'l darlin' Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 2,542	Originally Posted by DavidS CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. ..... Ah OK. I'll remember this if I ever get back into fish keeping. Is fermentation the usual method, or is it favoured because the home-brew is a useful by product?

9th July 2009, 04:44 AM	#32
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 4,180	With some wines I pour it from as high as possible into a emty waterjug, then back in the bottle. It gives a difference within ½hour or more. Knowing what wines will benefit is mostly trial and error, for me.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx

9th July 2009, 10:27 AM	#33
DavidS Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 256	Originally Posted by casebro Beer or wine? False dichotomy^WP -- Why not both? Is there no room for Scotch in the world? If I gotta pick just one, it's beer (YMMV). I don't let it breathe; I doubt it would help, but mostly I just don't wanna wait. Originally Posted by GlennB Ah OK. I'll remember this if I ever get back into fish keeping. Is fermentation the usual method, or is it favoured because the home-brew is a useful by product? For adding CO2 to an aquarium, fermentation is a useful method that doesn't cost much to try. After a year or so of mixing brew every few weeks, I switched to bottled CO2 for convenience and longevity. Much good info here. The resulting liquor isn't very useful. If you want to brew for consumption or ethanol production, do that also or instead. If you want something good to drink, learn to do that well or buy from somebody who already does.
DavidS Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 256