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Drooper · 7th December 2003, 06:37 AM

This is an interesting report:

Revealed: the Iraqi colonel who told MI6 that Saddam could launch WMD within 45 minutes

Quote:

An Iraqi colonel who commanded a front-line unit during the build-up to the war in Iraq has revealed how he passed top secret information to British intelligence warning that Saddam Hussein had deployed weapons of mass destruction that could be used on the battlefield against coalition troops in less than 45 minutes.

Lt-Col al-Dabbagh, 40, who was the head of an Iraqi air defence unit in the western desert, said that cases containing WMD warheads were delivered to front-line units, including his own, towards the end of last year.

This "45 minute" claim is one of the more contentious pieces of information for which Tony Blair has come under fire.

It will be interesting to see if this goes anywhere.

One thing that is obviously missing from the article is:

if these wepons were ditributed to the front line Iraqi forces, why haven't they been recovered and revealed as evidence of WMD?

epepke · 7th December 2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drooper
One thing that is obviously missing from the article is:

if these wepons were ditributed to the front line Iraqi forces, why haven't they been recovered and revealed as evidence of WMD?

The most obvious possibility is that the Iraqi colonel was lying.

However, the usual accusation is that Blair, Cheney, etc. just made up the WMD stuff out of whole cloth.

Jon_in_london · 8th December 2003, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by epepke

The most obvious possibility is that the Iraqi colonel was lying.

However, the usual accusation is that Blair, Cheney, etc. just made up the WMD stuff out of whole cloth.

Umm... maybe they should have corrobarated this before sending our lads of to get killed and maimed.

Drooper · 8th December 2003, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by epepke

The most obvious possibility is that the Iraqi colonel was lying.

However, the usual accusation is that Blair, Cheney, etc. just made up the WMD stuff out of whole cloth.

Well, yes,that is obvious so I didn't bother saying so

And yes the usual accusation is that Blair etc. made it all up, hence the report is interesting.

What I did say was that it would be interesting to see where this might go; fishing for some more information.

The Don · 8th December 2003, 04:32 AM

The issue was, as I recall, that Blair (or Campbell or whoever) had insisted that the 45 minute claim was inserted into the dossier or at least was given more prominence within the dossier.

It was alleged that the security services were uncomfortable with doing this because the claim was from a single uncorroborated source.

Drooper · 8th December 2003, 05:12 AM

There were in fact claims that the "45 minutes" phrase was made up by Downing Street spin doctors.

WildCat · 8th December 2003, 05:30 AM

It could be that rebellious factions within the Iraqi military passed this story on to foreign intelligence agents to get them to do what they couldn't, overthrow Saddam.

Graham · 8th December 2003, 05:53 AM

What I don't understand is this:

Apparently these weapons were distributed to the various units and the unit commanders decided not to use them (independently or collectively?).

Their reasons for doing this?

Quote:

The only reason that these weapons were not used, said Col al-Dabbagh, was because the bulk of the Iraqi army did not want to fight for Saddam.

So having disobeyed orders and not used the weapons, what did they do with them?

Apparently they (independently or collectively again?) took them off into the desert and hid them so that the US could not find them.

Why?

It doesn't seem likely that it was a co-odinated conspiracy against Saddam and that't not the impression I got from the article.

That means that however-many WMD-equipped units hid away their WMD in various parts of the country, in great haste (since the Americans were rolling across the country at the time) and yet not one of those hastily chosen stashes has been discovered and not one of those unit commanders and/or ordainary Iraqi soldiers that were involved in trasport and burial or whatever of the weapons has chosen to turn them over for the rewards offered by the US?

That doesn't seem likely to me.

Graham

Drooper · 8th December 2003, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WildCat
It could be that rebellious factions within the Iraqi military passed this story on to foreign intelligence agents to get them to do what they couldn't, overthrow Saddam.

This is one of the more interesting feasible conclusions.

Extrapolating this would be fascinating:

It was the Iraqis themselves who engineered the overthrow and Bush and Blair were hoodwinked into doing it for them.

fishbob · 8th December 2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

It was the Iraqis themselves who engineered the overthrow and Bush and Blair were hoodwinked into doing it for them.

This possibility was hinted at in a PFS Frontline show a couple of months ago. There was a little bit of discussion of the show here (can't find it right now).

7th December 2003, 06:37 AM	#1
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983	45 minutes, yes or no? This is an interesting report: Revealed: the Iraqi colonel who told MI6 that Saddam could launch WMD within 45 minutes Quote: An Iraqi colonel who commanded a front-line unit during the build-up to the war in Iraq has revealed how he passed top secret information to British intelligence warning that Saddam Hussein had deployed weapons of mass destruction that could be used on the battlefield against coalition troops in less than 45 minutes. Lt-Col al-Dabbagh, 40, who was the head of an Iraqi air defence unit in the western desert, said that cases containing WMD warheads were delivered to front-line units, including his own, towards the end of last year. This "45 minute" claim is one of the more contentious pieces of information for which Tony Blair has come under fire. It will be interesting to see if this goes anywhere. One thing that is obviously missing from the article is: if these wepons were ditributed to the front line Iraqi forces, why haven't they been recovered and revealed as evidence of WMD?
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983

7th December 2003, 02:35 PM	#2
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,953	Re: 45 minutes, yes or no? Quote: Originally posted by Drooper One thing that is obviously missing from the article is: if these wepons were ditributed to the front line Iraqi forces, why haven't they been recovered and revealed as evidence of WMD? The most obvious possibility is that the Iraqi colonel was lying. However, the usual accusation is that Blair, Cheney, etc. just made up the WMD stuff out of whole cloth.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,953

8th December 2003, 03:04 AM	#3
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Re: Re: 45 minutes, yes or no? Quote: Originally posted by epepke The most obvious possibility is that the Iraqi colonel was lying. However, the usual accusation is that Blair, Cheney, etc. just made up the WMD stuff out of whole cloth. Umm... maybe they should have corrobarated this before sending our lads of to get killed and maimed.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

8th December 2003, 03:20 AM	#4
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983	Re: Re: 45 minutes, yes or no? Quote: Originally posted by epepke The most obvious possibility is that the Iraqi colonel was lying. However, the usual accusation is that Blair, Cheney, etc. just made up the WMD stuff out of whole cloth. Well, yes,that is obvious so I didn't bother saying so And yes the usual accusation is that Blair etc. made it all up, hence the report is interesting. What I did say was that it would be interesting to see where this might go; fishing for some more information.
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983

8th December 2003, 05:12 AM	#6
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983	There were in fact claims that the "45 minutes" phrase was made up by Downing Street spin doctors.
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983

8th December 2003, 04:32 AM	#5
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,561	The issue was, as I recall, that Blair (or Campbell or whoever) had insisted that the 45 minute claim was inserted into the dossier or at least was given more prominence within the dossier. It was alleged that the security services were uncomfortable with doing this because the claim was from a single uncorroborated source.

8th December 2003, 05:30 AM	#7
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	It could be that rebellious factions within the Iraqi military passed this story on to foreign intelligence agents to get them to do what they couldn't, overthrow Saddam.

8th December 2003, 05:53 AM	#8
Graham Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,465	What I don't understand is this: Apparently these weapons were distributed to the various units and the unit commanders decided not to use them (independently or collectively?). Their reasons for doing this? Quote: The only reason that these weapons were not used, said Col al-Dabbagh, was because the bulk of the Iraqi army did not want to fight for Saddam. So having disobeyed orders and not used the weapons, what did they do with them? Apparently they (independently or collectively again?) took them off into the desert and hid them so that the US could not find them. Why? It doesn't seem likely that it was a co-odinated conspiracy against Saddam and that't not the impression I got from the article. That means that however-many WMD-equipped units hid away their WMD in various parts of the country, in great haste (since the Americans were rolling across the country at the time) and yet not one of those hastily chosen stashes has been discovered and not one of those unit commanders and/or ordainary Iraqi soldiers that were involved in trasport and burial or whatever of the weapons has chosen to turn them over for the rewards offered by the US? That doesn't seem likely to me. Graham
Graham Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,465	__________________ The wages of sin are death, but by the time taxes are taken out, it's just sort of a tired feeling. - Paula Poundstone

8th December 2003, 06:49 AM	#9
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983	Quote: Originally posted by WildCat It could be that rebellious factions within the Iraqi military passed this story on to foreign intelligence agents to get them to do what they couldn't, overthrow Saddam. This is one of the more interesting feasible conclusions. Extrapolating this would be fascinating: It was the Iraqis themselves who engineered the overthrow and Bush and Blair were hoodwinked into doing it for them.
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983

8th December 2003, 09:09 AM	#10
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,670	Quote: It was the Iraqis themselves who engineered the overthrow and Bush and Blair were hoodwinked into doing it for them. This possibility was hinted at in a PFS Frontline show a couple of months ago. There was a little bit of discussion of the show here (can't find it right now).
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.