Heaven and hell

UndercoverElephant · 13th July 2009, 02:16 PM

If you believe in heaven and hell, do you think you would behave differently if you didn't?

If you don't, do you think you would behave differently if you did?

Is eternal life in heaven worth having? Is avoiding hell enough to scare you into behaving better? (and yes, we all could behave better, unless there are some saints posting on this board....this isn't supposed to be a thread about the rights and wrongs of Christian ethics so assume "good" means "good according to my own moral standards" - which we all struggle to meet.)

The reason I ask is partly because one look at history would seem to suggest that it makes no difference: human beings have always had the same tendency to behave like animals. So either most of the denizens of Christendom didn't actually believe their bad acts would result in them ending up in hell, or they didn't care....or maybe they couldn't help themselves.

I realise there were a few people, mainly the rich and powerful, who tried to buy their way into heaven or converted on their death-beds, but that's not really what I'm asking about. I don't think that was the strategy of the common man.

Marduk · 13th July 2009, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

The reason I ask is partly because one look at history would seem to suggest that it makes no difference: human beings have always had the same tendency to behave like animals. So either most of the denizens of Christendom didn't actually believe their bad acts would result in them ending up in hell, or they didn't care....or maybe they couldn't help themselves.

thats a pretty recent history, Hell is an invention of monotheism along with the new outer space version of heaven, before then people were driven by more rational motivators such as the King (who was the personal God) and country

As someone who has studied this subject in depth it doesn't motivate me either way, its just another of those things that humanity has used to get us where we are today. I doubt the major religions of today will last much longer in their present form, they ask you to believe in them the same way that a hollywood movie does, by suspending your disbelief, that only works until the sequel (with more explanation) arrives.

UndercoverElephant · 13th July 2009, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

thats a pretty recent history, Hell is an invention of monotheism along with the new outer space version of heaven, before then people were driven by more rational motivators such as the King (who was the personal God) and country

But that just suggests that they placed Earthly matters above whatever was going to happen them after death. God is higher than any King to a Christian.

HansMustermann · 13th July 2009, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

thats a pretty recent history, Hell is an invention of monotheism along with the new outer space version of heaven, before then people were driven by more rational motivators such as the King (who was the personal God) and country

Well, for Judeo-Christianity, yes. But other cultures had an afterlife _long_ before that.

Marduk · 13th July 2009, 02:29 PM

it wasn't a place where you went for punishment for belonging to the wrong religion though was it, they had an underworld which was based on a misunderstanding of their environment, not an underworld that was based on the whim of any one God to prove that he was "the one".

UndercoverElephant · 13th July 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

it wasn't a place where you went for punishment for belonging to the wrong religion though was it, they had an underworld which was based on a misunderstanding of their environment, not an underworld that was based on the whim of any one God to prove that he was "the one".

That's a different point. I'm not interested in the particulars of Christian doctrine. I want to know whether belief in an afterlife for Marduk would affect Marduck's behaviour right now if he actually believed in it.

Let's say it doesn't matter which religion you believe in, you just believe that behaving badly will result in some sort of negative affect after death: it could mean you were reborn as a slug for all I care. I want to know whether this would motivate you, out of fear, to behave more morally. ETA...or out of desire to go to heaven, but that one's tricky because nobody in their right mind would want to go there anyway. Non-existence sounds preferable to me. Hell seems more motivationally relevant.

HansMustermann · 13th July 2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

it wasn't a place where you went for punishment for belonging to the wrong religion though was it, they had an underworld which was based on a misunderstanding of their environment, not an underworld that was based on the whim of any one God to prove that he was "the one".

No, of course not. Being a prick about other people's religion did get made mainstream by Judeo-Christianity, though technically Akhenaten invented it before them.

But anyway, you're right that the rest of the world went more by figuring out equivalences and common pantheons, not by "you'll be punished for being the wrong religion."

I'm more like talking in the context of this thread, about a heaven and/or a hell for behaving morally or imorally. And I'm just saying that the Greeks had the carrot and the stick for that since times imemorial, and even they were not the first. The Mesopotamians had an afterlife since the birth of the human civilization, but then, seeing that your username is Marduk, I'm guessing you already knew that and I'm probably just boring you by now

Marduk · 13th July 2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

That's a different point. I'm not interested in the particulars of Christian doctrine. I want to know whether belief in an afterlife for Marduk would affect Marduck's behaviour right now if he actually believed in it.

Let's say it doesn't matter which religion you believe in, you just believe that behaving badly will result in some sort of negative affect after death: it could mean you were reborn as a slug for all I care. I want to know whether this would motivate you, out of fear, to behave more morally. ETA...or out of desire to go to heaven, but that one's tricky because nobody in their right mind would want to go there anyway. Non-existence sounds preferable to me. Hell seems more motivationally relevant.

,

if the world ended tomorrow would you act differently today is the same question, and my answer is still no, the fact that you are implying heaven and hell are somehow connected to moral behaviour I find quite amusing,

+ theres no "c" in Marduk, thats a different animal

:

UndercoverElephant · 13th July 2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

,

if the world ended tomorrow would you act differently today is the same question, and my answer is still no, the fact that you are implying heaven and hell are somehow connected to moral behaviour I find quite amusing,

+ theres no "c" in Marduk, thats a different animal

:

I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour.

Marduk · 13th July 2009, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour.

errr no, take a look at any religious leader if you need supporting evidence, people might believe it exists 100%, so when they act atrociously they just do mental gymnastics to allow them to do so inside the remit of their faith.

I Ratant · 13th July 2009, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour.

.
For many people, yes, they try to be stalwart believers and perform morally in this life.
For many more people though, it's lip service.
It's always possible to find a rational exception to the Golden Rule when you want something bad enough.

HansMustermann · 13th July 2009, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour.

Well, if that were the case, you'd think people would at least obey the 10 commandments, right? I mean, it's the most basic set of what God wants, and he doesn't spare the threats to get his point across, right?

I mean, take just this one:

"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

This is _the_ one commandment where the LORD feels it necessary to mention that He won't forgive ever. It's the one thing you can't repent later or anything. It can't get any more unambiguous, really.

You're supposed to use His name only in formal prayers or truthful formal oaths. Swearing a truthful oath in his name in court is ok, but even "Oh my God" is right out. The doctrine about it is, or used to be so strict, so strict that euphemisms like "by golly" appeared just because "by god's body" was a violation of that commandment. The lord will be mightily pissed if you use his name as a mere interjection in casual conversation.

Do you think that belief in heaven and hell makes many people obey that one? Yeah, right.

Let me repeat: even something that the Lord singles out as _the_ thing that's not forgivable and he won't forgive... nobody gives a rat's rear about it.

UndercoverElephant · 13th July 2009, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Swearing a truthful oath in his name in court is ok, but even "Oh my God" is right out.

Are you aware I was recently suspended for posting a word starting with "f" followed by four stars, followed by a "d", from this very board?

Apparently you have to star out the "f" and "d" around here...

ETA: The offending adjective was referring to the state of the world.

Marduk · 13th July 2009, 04:45 PM

yeah, but look on the bright side, you get to have your punishment for that one while you are alive and your time is limited

HansMustermann · 13th July 2009, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

Are you aware I was recently suspended for posting a word starting with "f" followed by four stars, followed by a "d", from this very board?

Apparently you have to star out the "f" and "d" around here...

ETA: The offending adjective was referring to the state of the world.

So, if you've learned to obey rule 10 that way, that's already more than heaven and hell do to get Christian to obey their own Commandment 3

(or 2, depending on how their particular sect divides that list)

FireGarden · 13th July 2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

If you don't, do you think you would behave differently if you did?

Would I have more will power/self-discipline as a result of this belief? Quite possibly. But I think I would find it difficult to sustain such a belief.

Of course reward/punishment are great motivators. But most of our behaviour is determined by training. It's too much effort to make a cost/benefit analysis for every decision.

Try it in a game of chess. Damn it is difficult to put the effort into every move -- especially against a ticking clock.

I occassionaly practice here:
http://chess.emrald.net/

I've got a good accuracy record, but many of my mistakes are really, really dumb. That's the way I'm wired.

Would I pay more attention if the reward for success was higher? Or if the punishment for failure was worse? Probably. But how much attention am I capable of paying?

Soapy Sam · 13th July 2009, 05:10 PM

It's a question of belief in enforcement.
If I actually believed I would be dumped in molten lava for eternity for some trivial offence, of course I would change my behaviour. But only if I thought I'd be caught.

I believe in traffic cops, but I do not believe they are omniscient and omnipresent.
So I speed.

But if I knew that every move I made was being recorded and that I absolutely would be caught, I would ... actually I'd sell the car.

13th July 2009, 02:16 PM	#1
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brighton, Sussex, England Posts: 8,066	Heaven and hell If you believe in heaven and hell, do you think you would behave differently if you didn't? If you don't, do you think you would behave differently if you did? Is eternal life in heaven worth having? Is avoiding hell enough to scare you into behaving better? (and yes, we all could behave better, unless there are some saints posting on this board....this isn't supposed to be a thread about the rights and wrongs of Christian ethics so assume "good" means "good according to my own moral standards" - which we all struggle to meet.) The reason I ask is partly because one look at history would seem to suggest that it makes no difference: human beings have always had the same tendency to behave like animals. So either most of the denizens of Christendom didn't actually believe their bad acts would result in them ending up in hell, or they didn't care....or maybe they couldn't help themselves. I realise there were a few people, mainly the rich and powerful, who tried to buy their way into heaven or converted on their death-beds, but that's not really what I'm asking about. I don't think that was the strategy of the common man.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

13th July 2009, 02:25 PM	#2
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant The reason I ask is partly because one look at history would seem to suggest that it makes no difference: human beings have always had the same tendency to behave like animals. So either most of the denizens of Christendom didn't actually believe their bad acts would result in them ending up in hell, or they didn't care....or maybe they couldn't help themselves. thats a pretty recent history, Hell is an invention of monotheism along with the new outer space version of heaven, before then people were driven by more rational motivators such as the King (who was the personal God) and country As someone who has studied this subject in depth it doesn't motivate me either way, its just another of those things that humanity has used to get us where we are today. I doubt the major religions of today will last much longer in their present form, they ask you to believe in them the same way that a hollywood movie does, by suspending your disbelief, that only works until the sequel (with more explanation) arrives.
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer) Last edited by Marduk; 13th July 2009 at 02:27 PM.

13th July 2009, 02:27 PM	#3
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brighton, Sussex, England Posts: 8,066	Originally Posted by Marduk thats a pretty recent history, Hell is an invention of monotheism along with the new outer space version of heaven, before then people were driven by more rational motivators such as the King (who was the personal God) and country But that just suggests that they placed Earthly matters above whatever was going to happen them after death. God is higher than any King to a Christian.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

13th July 2009, 02:29 PM	#5
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	it wasn't a place where you went for punishment for belonging to the wrong religion though was it, they had an underworld which was based on a misunderstanding of their environment, not an underworld that was based on the whim of any one God to prove that he was "the one".
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

13th July 2009, 02:57 PM	#6
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brighton, Sussex, England Posts: 8,066	Originally Posted by Marduk it wasn't a place where you went for punishment for belonging to the wrong religion though was it, they had an underworld which was based on a misunderstanding of their environment, not an underworld that was based on the whim of any one God to prove that he was "the one". That's a different point. I'm not interested in the particulars of Christian doctrine. I want to know whether belief in an afterlife for Marduk would affect Marduck's behaviour right now if he actually believed in it. Let's say it doesn't matter which religion you believe in, you just believe that behaving badly will result in some sort of negative affect after death: it could mean you were reborn as a slug for all I care. I want to know whether this would motivate you, out of fear, to behave more morally. ETA...or out of desire to go to heaven, but that one's tricky because nobody in their right mind would want to go there anyway. Non-existence sounds preferable to me. Hell seems more motivationally relevant.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about." Last edited by UndercoverElephant; 13th July 2009 at 03:00 PM.

13th July 2009, 02:27 PM	#4
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by Marduk thats a pretty recent history, Hell is an invention of monotheism along with the new outer space version of heaven, before then people were driven by more rational motivators such as the King (who was the personal God) and country Well, for Judeo-Christianity, yes. But other cultures had an afterlife _long_ before that.

13th July 2009, 03:58 PM	#7
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by Marduk it wasn't a place where you went for punishment for belonging to the wrong religion though was it, they had an underworld which was based on a misunderstanding of their environment, not an underworld that was based on the whim of any one God to prove that he was "the one". No, of course not. Being a prick about other people's religion did get made mainstream by Judeo-Christianity, though technically Akhenaten invented it before them. But anyway, you're right that the rest of the world went more by figuring out equivalences and common pantheons, not by "you'll be punished for being the wrong religion." I'm more like talking in the context of this thread, about a heaven and/or a hell for behaving morally or imorally. And I'm just saying that the Greeks had the carrot and the stick for that since times imemorial, and even they were not the first. The Mesopotamians had an afterlife since the birth of the human civilization, but then, seeing that your username is Marduk, I'm guessing you already knew that and I'm probably just boring you by now

13th July 2009, 04:01 PM	#8
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant That's a different point. I'm not interested in the particulars of Christian doctrine. I want to know whether belief in an afterlife for Marduk would affect Marduck's behaviour right now if he actually believed in it. Let's say it doesn't matter which religion you believe in, you just believe that behaving badly will result in some sort of negative affect after death: it could mean you were reborn as a slug for all I care. I want to know whether this would motivate you, out of fear, to behave more morally. ETA...or out of desire to go to heaven, but that one's tricky because nobody in their right mind would want to go there anyway. Non-existence sounds preferable to me. Hell seems more motivationally relevant. , if the world ended tomorrow would you act differently today is the same question, and my answer is still no, the fact that you are implying heaven and hell are somehow connected to moral behaviour I find quite amusing, + theres no "c" in Marduk, thats a different animal :
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer) Last edited by Marduk; 13th July 2009 at 04:07 PM.

13th July 2009, 04:14 PM	#9
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brighton, Sussex, England Posts: 8,066	Originally Posted by Marduk , if the world ended tomorrow would you act differently today is the same question, and my answer is still no, the fact that you are implying heaven and hell are somehow connected to moral behaviour I find quite amusing, + theres no "c" in Marduk, thats a different animal : I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

13th July 2009, 04:22 PM	#10
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour. errr no, take a look at any religious leader if you need supporting evidence, people might believe it exists 100%, so when they act atrociously they just do mental gymnastics to allow them to do so inside the remit of their faith.
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer) Last edited by Marduk; 13th July 2009 at 04:24 PM.

13th July 2009, 04:36 PM	#11
I Ratant Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,593	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour. . For many people, yes, they try to be stalwart believers and perform morally in this life. For many more people though, it's lip service. It's always possible to find a rational exception to the Golden Rule when you want something bad enough.
I Ratant Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,593

13th July 2009, 04:39 PM	#12
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant I'm ASKING if BELIEF IN heaven and hell ACTUALLY INFLUENCES human behaviour. Well, if that were the case, you'd think people would at least obey the 10 commandments, right? I mean, it's the most basic set of what God wants, and he doesn't spare the threats to get his point across, right? I mean, take just this one: "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." This is _the_ one commandment where the LORD feels it necessary to mention that He won't forgive ever. It's the one thing you can't repent later or anything. It can't get any more unambiguous, really. You're supposed to use His name only in formal prayers or truthful formal oaths. Swearing a truthful oath in his name in court is ok, but even "Oh my God" is right out. The doctrine about it is, or used to be so strict, so strict that euphemisms like "by golly" appeared just because "by god's body" was a violation of that commandment. The lord will be mightily pissed if you use his name as a mere interjection in casual conversation. Do you think that belief in heaven and hell makes many people obey that one? Yeah, right. Let me repeat: even something that the Lord singles out as _the_ thing that's not forgivable and he won't forgive... nobody gives a rat's rear about it.

13th July 2009, 04:43 PM	#13
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brighton, Sussex, England Posts: 8,066	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Swearing a truthful oath in his name in court is ok, but even "Oh my God" is right out. Are you aware I was recently suspended for posting a word starting with "f" followed by four stars, followed by a "d", from this very board? Apparently you have to star out the "f" and "d" around here... ETA: The offending adjective was referring to the state of the world.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

13th July 2009, 04:45 PM	#14
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	yeah, but look on the bright side, you get to have your punishment for that one while you are alive and your time is limited
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

13th July 2009, 04:50 PM	#15
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant Are you aware I was recently suspended for posting a word starting with "f" followed by four stars, followed by a "d", from this very board? Apparently you have to star out the "f" and "d" around here... ETA: The offending adjective was referring to the state of the world. So, if you've learned to obey rule 10 that way, that's already more than heaven and hell do to get Christian to obey their own Commandment 3 (or 2, depending on how their particular sect divides that list)
	Last edited by HansMustermann; 13th July 2009 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Meh, the forum had made an auto-link outta "rule 3"

13th July 2009, 05:06 PM	#16
FireGarden Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 3,399	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant If you don't, do you think you would behave differently if you did? Would I have more will power/self-discipline as a result of this belief? Quite possibly. But I think I would find it difficult to sustain such a belief. Of course reward/punishment are great motivators. But most of our behaviour is determined by training. It's too much effort to make a cost/benefit analysis for every decision. Try it in a game of chess. Damn it is difficult to put the effort into every move -- especially against a ticking clock. I occassionaly practice here: http://chess.emrald.net/ I've got a good accuracy record, but many of my mistakes are really, really dumb. That's the way I'm wired. Would I pay more attention if the reward for success was higher? Or if the punishment for failure was worse? Probably. But how much attention am I capable of paying?
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

13th July 2009, 05:10 PM	#17
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092	It's a question of belief in enforcement. If I actually believed I would be dumped in molten lava for eternity for some trivial offence, of course I would change my behaviour. But only if I thought I'd be caught. I believe in traffic cops, but I do not believe they are omniscient and omnipresent. So I speed. But if I knew that every move I made was being recorded and that I absolutely would be caught, I would ... actually I'd sell the car.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092