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Samus · 9th December 2003, 08:16 AM

Obviously, the answer to that is "depends on your field of study". But I'm curious as to other people's opinions/experiences on this.

I have a bachelor's degree in computer science. In my line of work, I see no benefit to pursuing a master's degree, even though my employer will pay for it. Any additional topics I might learn in grad school I can also learn OJT in the same period of time.

I can see advanced studies for medicine and certain scientific fields, but for the rest of us, is it really worthwhile?

I think if I had an abundance of time and energy, I might pursue a master's degree in something different but related, like mathematics. But for the time being, I get more satisfaction from pursuing my instrument [and possibly commercial] rating for my pilot's license.

My father says I should pursue a masters program, just because the company is paying for it. But I don't feel it would provide for any career advancement. The only reason I would pursue it is because I'd like to be an adjunct professor at a college some day.

Thoughts?

Jeff Corey · 9th December 2003, 12:20 PM

In NY, Child Protective and Adult Protective Service workers need Masters degrees for advancement. Social workers need MSWs for licensing. Psychologists must have a Ph. D. or Psy.D. to qualify for licensing.
Just a few examples.

roger · 9th December 2003, 12:29 PM

I am of much the same opinion, being in the same field. However, I have these caveats:

1) in some job markets, especially associated with the government, either working for them directly or indirectly through a contractor, you can bill at a hire rate for people with masters, thus you can often command a higher salary.

2) If you are interested in researching something specialized that isn't directly relavant to your current job, getting a master's degree at a university that requires a thesis can have you rubbing elbows with people researching the same thing. This exposure is invaluable to your own thoughts and work.

However, most master degrees in CS which require nothing more than X hours of classwork aren't really valuable (to me). I can learn faster on my own, and I usually learn _more_ that is directly relevant, because I am not aiming for a general survey that will be helpful to a wide variety of students, but only to gather information that is relevant to _me_.

xouper · 9th December 2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Commander Cool: ... for the time being, I get more satisfaction from pursuing my instrument [and possibly commercial] rating for my pilot's license.

Interestingly, there's a CFII who sometimes posts on this forum. I'm surprised how many of us pilots there on JREF. No one has yet confessed to having more sport parachute jumps than me, however.

As for getting a Masters in CS, I say go for it, for a plethora of reasons. Same for a Masters in mathematics if you'd prefer that. I cannot see how anyone would think either one would be a waste of time. I don't know anyone who has regretted getting a graduate degree, but I suppose it could happen. Here's a weird example, my father, who is 70, just got his PhD in education this year.

bug_girl · 9th December 2003, 06:27 PM

well, having a PhD, and formerly having grad students, and currently advising ugrads about picking programs:

don't go to grad school unless you are really interested in learning. The reason to go is to have an interesting research experience, or to have your brain stimulated by the combined effects of a diet of 2 years of ramen noodles + very large expensive textbooks + sleep deprivation + really cool discussions and ideas.
The increased earnings vary from field to field. i just had ANOTHER discussion with some @#$! bachelors level kid who is whining about his 50K starting salary, and i haven't even hit 50 after 10 years of work with a phd.
(what, do i sound bitter?)

in some fields, a grad degree is needed, but not many. in fact, right now, an MBA is almost a liability--people are finding out that a couple of short courses gets you the same product for 20k less a year in salary.

Wile E. Coyote · 10th December 2003, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xouper
I don't know anyone who has regretted getting a graduate degree, but I suppose it could happen. Here's a weird example, my father, who is 70, just got his PhD in education this year.

Of course, few people are going to go through the effort of obtaining a Masters degree and then say it was a waste of time.

Going on my own experience with education, I find that it is overrated in my field (computer science). I went to college for four years but learned more about my chosen profession in the first six months on the job than I did in all of school.

As far as a computer science Masters, I do not see the point. Masters degrees invoke a sense of specialization. In computer science, a specialization could be rendered obsolete in one or two years, truly making that education a waste.

Also, most companies view a Masters degree as equivalent to 2 years of experience. In fact, after two years on the job I was making a little more than entry level hires with Masters degrees. The only difference is that I was making money that whole time instead of spending it on an education. Aside from the initial starting boost, I have not seen an instance where having a Masters degree has made a salary difference.

Now, if you want a degree because of pride or because you are a professional student ... well, that is a different matter completely.

Michael Redman · 10th December 2003, 06:21 AM

Along the lines of what bug girl said, for many people in the right program, the education is worthwhile apart from any potential financial reward. Personally I would always have an eye on good educational experiences, as few other pursuits make such improvements in one's life. For you that might be a Masters, or it might be the pilot's license, or it might be both.

On the other hand, I think that many people who pursue degrees with the intent of improving their lifestyle through increased income are dissapointed with the results. There are no employment guarantees these days, and years spent in a program you don't like are years you're never going to get back.

Agammamon · 10th December 2003, 08:59 AM

It very much depends on what you do with it. In the military we require officers to have 4 yr degrees to get comisioned. Unfortunately the vast majority of these degrees end up having nothing to do with either their specialty or warfighting at all. I mean how is the guy in charge of damage control going to use a degree in filmaking? This sort of thing is creeping down into the enlisted ranks also. Before I advance much further I'll have to get off my arse and complete a degree just to stay competitive.

There is something to be said about the "learning to learn" part of a college education but I think a lot of the emphasis on degrees in most job fields is more of a way to weed out a (rather large) selection of candidates. It provides a metric (not necessarily an appropriate one) to judge people by and it's not like there aren't a lot of college graduates floating around to select from once you drop everyone else from consideration.

kittynh · 10th December 2003, 09:19 AM

Computer science is still a new field. Pool Boy makes his living with computers. He's never had a class in computer science ever. When he went to college, there were no classes on it. Computers were BIG and lived in air conditioned rooms. He just decided to work with computers one day and read up about them. He bluffed his way into a temp job doing Y2K, and then got offered a real job. What helps him now is that he speaks several languages, and enjoys managing projects. He gets things done on time and within budget (though he draws up the budget too) , plus he works well with a variety of people from many different countries.

sorry, long story to show that what they look for on resumes at his place of work is experience not degrees. Someday this will probably change and everyone will be expected to have masters or whatever. But right now, it doesn't matter. However, might be nice to get a masters in something else as back up. One day you might want to teach (mathmatics?). A masters is nice then. If you have no big commitments this might be a good time. REmember, most people go through many different careers in their lifetime. You might not like computers forever.

SRW · 10th December 2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Commander Cool
Obviously, the answer to that is "depends on your field of study". But I'm curious as to other people's opinions/experiences on this.

I have a bachelor's degree in computer science. In my line of work, I see no benefit to pursuing a master's degree, even though my employer will pay for it. Any additional topics I might learn in grad school I can also learn OJT in the same period of time.

I got my BS in CS also, and found myself learning more on by far on the job then in the class room. My long term goal is to teach, so to do that I need to get a teaching credentual. I have always felt goals are important. So if you can only achieve them with a MS then go for it, if not do something you want to with the time.

Samus · 10th December 2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bug_girl
don't go to grad school unless you are really interested in learning. The reason to go is to have an interesting research experience, or to have your brain stimulated by the combined effects of a diet of 2 years of ramen noodles + very large expensive textbooks + sleep deprivation + really cool discussions and ideas.

I am really interested in learning. I just don't think, in my field, an advanced degree will get me anything (given other constraints on my time, I've developed a bit of a selfish 'tude). Fortunately, I don't think my current career path would ever require such a degree. Given my interest in math and physics, I would rather pursue a degree in one of those two fields if I did it at all, instead of a M.S. in comp sci.

With the exception of medicine, teaching and the sciences, I can't think of a good reason to pursue masters or doctoral programs, other than as an ego boost or to further delay the paying of student loans.

Quote:

Originally posted by xouper
I'm surprised how many of us pilots there on JREF. No one has yet confessed to having more sport parachute jumps than me, however.

I've noticed that, too. We have a good collection of aviators in these parts. A good buddy of mine that used to live in MI but now resides in NH has over 400 jumps, and the highest level of licensure for sport parachuting. That's the most of anyone I know. You got more?

T'ai Chi · 10th December 2003, 01:17 PM

I believe that the more degrees the better! If I was smart enough (I'm not) and a hard worker (I'm not), I'd go on for a Ph.D in Statistics or Mathematics.

xouper · 10th December 2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Commander Cool: A good buddy of mine that used to live in MI but now resides in NH has over 400 jumps, and the highest level of licensure for sport parachuting. That's the most of anyone I know. You got more?

No, but close. I have over 300 jumps, which is really not very many. One of the guys I often jumped with in Illinois had some 9,000 jumps when he was killed last summer in a skydiving accident.

I assume you are asking about the USPA D license, which I have all the qualifications for and passed the written, but never got all my paperwork signed off. So, your friend is obviously better than me.

roger · 10th December 2003, 06:15 PM

Speaking as somebody who was in a CS master's program, but never finished it, I found the program to be much more about jumping through hoops - learn technique X, apply X in your homework assignment, then regurgitate X on a test, then again on the final - than about mind bending theories and research. I'm sure that is less true if you go to a top flight school, such as Stanford, MIT, etc. Otherwise it was mostly a bunch of grunt work that I can do just as well without a teacher.

Mostly. I did gain some positive stuff from it, including eventually publishing a paper that some other random person/stranger in my field actually mentioned reading when he met me. But the negatives (including having to bail out on a book I was co-authoring due to time constraints) leave me not regretting dropping out. Pursuing a CS degree is often a heavy burden with few intellectual rewards.

9th December 2003, 08:16 AM	#1
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003	Advanced degrees - are they worthwhile? Obviously, the answer to that is "depends on your field of study". But I'm curious as to other people's opinions/experiences on this. I have a bachelor's degree in computer science. In my line of work, I see no benefit to pursuing a master's degree, even though my employer will pay for it. Any additional topics I might learn in grad school I can also learn OJT in the same period of time. I can see advanced studies for medicine and certain scientific fields, but for the rest of us, is it really worthwhile? I think if I had an abundance of time and energy, I might pursue a master's degree in something different but related, like mathematics. But for the time being, I get more satisfaction from pursuing my instrument [and possibly commercial] rating for my pilot's license. My father says I should pursue a masters program, just because the company is paying for it. But I don't feel it would provide for any career advancement. The only reason I would pursue it is because I'd like to be an adjunct professor at a college some day. Thoughts?
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003

9th December 2003, 05:30 PM	#4
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	Quote: Commander Cool: ... for the time being, I get more satisfaction from pursuing my instrument [and possibly commercial] rating for my pilot's license. Interestingly, there's a CFII who sometimes posts on this forum. I'm surprised how many of us pilots there on JREF. No one has yet confessed to having more sport parachute jumps than me, however. As for getting a Masters in CS, I say go for it, for a plethora of reasons. Same for a Masters in mathematics if you'd prefer that. I cannot see how anyone would think either one would be a waste of time. I don't know anyone who has regretted getting a graduate degree, but I suppose it could happen. Here's a weird example, my father, who is 70, just got his PhD in education this year.
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189

9th December 2003, 06:27 PM	#5
bug_girl übernerd Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Very Low Earth orbit Posts: 3,013	actually, it's Dr. Bug_girl to you. well, having a PhD, and formerly having grad students, and currently advising ugrads about picking programs: don't go to grad school unless you are really interested in learning. The reason to go is to have an interesting research experience, or to have your brain stimulated by the combined effects of a diet of 2 years of ramen noodles + very large expensive textbooks + sleep deprivation + really cool discussions and ideas. The increased earnings vary from field to field. i just had ANOTHER discussion with some @#$! bachelors level kid who is whining about his 50K starting salary, and i haven't even hit 50 after 10 years of work with a phd. (what, do i sound bitter?) in some fields, a grad degree is needed, but not many. in fact, right now, an MBA is almost a liability--people are finding out that a couple of short courses gets you the same product for 20k less a year in salary.
	__________________ The Bug Blog

10th December 2003, 06:21 AM	#7
Michael Redman Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 3,063	Along the lines of what bug girl said, for many people in the right program, the education is worthwhile apart from any potential financial reward. Personally I would always have an eye on good educational experiences, as few other pursuits make such improvements in one's life. For you that might be a Masters, or it might be the pilot's license, or it might be both. On the other hand, I think that many people who pursue degrees with the intent of improving their lifestyle through increased income are dissapointed with the results. There are no employment guarantees these days, and years spent in a program you don't like are years you're never going to get back.
	__________________ The rule is perfect; in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain

10th December 2003, 08:59 AM	#8
Agammamon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,385	It very much depends on what you do with it. In the military we require officers to have 4 yr degrees to get comisioned. Unfortunately the vast majority of these degrees end up having nothing to do with either their specialty or warfighting at all. I mean how is the guy in charge of damage control going to use a degree in filmaking? This sort of thing is creeping down into the enlisted ranks also. Before I advance much further I'll have to get off my arse and complete a degree just to stay competitive. There is something to be said about the "learning to learn" part of a college education but I think a lot of the emphasis on degrees in most job fields is more of a way to weed out a (rather large) selection of candidates. It provides a metric (not necessarily an appropriate one) to judge people by and it's not like there aren't a lot of college graduates floating around to select from once you drop everyone else from consideration.
	__________________ It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists.

9th December 2003, 12:20 PM	#2
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,797	In NY, Child Protective and Adult Protective Service workers need Masters degrees for advancement. Social workers need MSWs for licensing. Psychologists must have a Ph. D. or Psy.D. to qualify for licensing. Just a few examples.

9th December 2003, 12:29 PM	#3
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,062	I am of much the same opinion, being in the same field. However, I have these caveats: 1) in some job markets, especially associated with the government, either working for them directly or indirectly through a contractor, you can bill at a hire rate for people with masters, thus you can often command a higher salary. 2) If you are interested in researching something specialized that isn't directly relavant to your current job, getting a master's degree at a university that requires a thesis can have you rubbing elbows with people researching the same thing. This exposure is invaluable to your own thoughts and work. However, most master degrees in CS which require nothing more than X hours of classwork aren't really valuable (to me). I can learn faster on my own, and I usually learn _more_ that is directly relevant, because I am not aiming for a general survey that will be helpful to a wide variety of students, but only to gather information that is relevant to _me_.

10th December 2003, 05:44 AM	#6
Wile E. Coyote Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 342	Quote: Originally posted by xouper I don't know anyone who has regretted getting a graduate degree, but I suppose it could happen. Here's a weird example, my father, who is 70, just got his PhD in education this year. Of course, few people are going to go through the effort of obtaining a Masters degree and then say it was a waste of time. Going on my own experience with education, I find that it is overrated in my field (computer science). I went to college for four years but learned more about my chosen profession in the first six months on the job than I did in all of school. As far as a computer science Masters, I do not see the point. Masters degrees invoke a sense of specialization. In computer science, a specialization could be rendered obsolete in one or two years, truly making that education a waste. Also, most companies view a Masters degree as equivalent to 2 years of experience. In fact, after two years on the job I was making a little more than entry level hires with Masters degrees. The only difference is that I was making money that whole time instead of spending it on an education. Aside from the initial starting boost, I have not seen an instance where having a Masters degree has made a salary difference. Now, if you want a degree because of pride or because you are a professional student ... well, that is a different matter completely.

10th December 2003, 09:19 AM	#9
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,726	Computer science is still a new field. Pool Boy makes his living with computers. He's never had a class in computer science ever. When he went to college, there were no classes on it. Computers were BIG and lived in air conditioned rooms. He just decided to work with computers one day and read up about them. He bluffed his way into a temp job doing Y2K, and then got offered a real job. What helps him now is that he speaks several languages, and enjoys managing projects. He gets things done on time and within budget (though he draws up the budget too) , plus he works well with a variety of people from many different countries. sorry, long story to show that what they look for on resumes at his place of work is experience not degrees. Someday this will probably change and everyone will be expected to have masters or whatever. But right now, it doesn't matter. However, might be nice to get a masters in something else as back up. One day you might want to teach (mathmatics?). A masters is nice then. If you have no big commitments this might be a good time. REmember, most people go through many different careers in their lifetime. You might not like computers forever.
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

10th December 2003, 09:46 AM	#10
SRW Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,901	Re: Advanced degrees - are they worthwhile? Quote: Originally posted by Commander Cool Obviously, the answer to that is "depends on your field of study". But I'm curious as to other people's opinions/experiences on this. I have a bachelor's degree in computer science. In my line of work, I see no benefit to pursuing a master's degree, even though my employer will pay for it. Any additional topics I might learn in grad school I can also learn OJT in the same period of time. I got my BS in CS also, and found myself learning more on by far on the job then in the class room. My long term goal is to teach, so to do that I need to get a teaching credentual. I have always felt goals are important. So if you can only achieve them with a MS then go for it, if not do something you want to with the time.
SRW Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,901

10th December 2003, 12:25 PM	#11
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003	Re: actually, it's Dr. Bug_girl to you. Quote: Originally posted by bug_girl don't go to grad school unless you are really interested in learning. The reason to go is to have an interesting research experience, or to have your brain stimulated by the combined effects of a diet of 2 years of ramen noodles + very large expensive textbooks + sleep deprivation + really cool discussions and ideas. I am really interested in learning. I just don't think, in my field, an advanced degree will get me anything (given other constraints on my time, I've developed a bit of a selfish 'tude). Fortunately, I don't think my current career path would ever require such a degree. Given my interest in math and physics, I would rather pursue a degree in one of those two fields if I did it at all, instead of a M.S. in comp sci. With the exception of medicine, teaching and the sciences, I can't think of a good reason to pursue masters or doctoral programs, other than as an ego boost or to further delay the paying of student loans. Quote: Originally posted by xouper I'm surprised how many of us pilots there on JREF. No one has yet confessed to having more sport parachute jumps than me, however. I've noticed that, too. We have a good collection of aviators in these parts. A good buddy of mine that used to live in MI but now resides in NH has over 400 jumps, and the highest level of licensure for sport parachuting. That's the most of anyone I know. You got more?
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003

10th December 2003, 01:17 PM	#12
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	I believe that the more degrees the better! If I was smart enough (I'm not) and a hard worker (I'm not), I'd go on for a Ph.D in Statistics or Mathematics.
	__________________ http://www.statisticool.com

10th December 2003, 04:32 PM	#13
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	Quote: Commander Cool: A good buddy of mine that used to live in MI but now resides in NH has over 400 jumps, and the highest level of licensure for sport parachuting. That's the most of anyone I know. You got more? No, but close. I have over 300 jumps, which is really not very many. One of the guys I often jumped with in Illinois had some 9,000 jumps when he was killed last summer in a skydiving accident. I assume you are asking about the USPA D license, which I have all the qualifications for and passed the written, but never got all my paperwork signed off. So, your friend is obviously better than me.
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189

10th December 2003, 06:15 PM	#14
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,062	Speaking as somebody who was in a CS master's program, but never finished it, I found the program to be much more about jumping through hoops - learn technique X, apply X in your homework assignment, then regurgitate X on a test, then again on the final - than about mind bending theories and research. I'm sure that is less true if you go to a top flight school, such as Stanford, MIT, etc. Otherwise it was mostly a bunch of grunt work that I can do just as well without a teacher. Mostly. I did gain some positive stuff from it, including eventually publishing a paper that some other random person/stranger in my field actually mentioned reading when he met me. But the negatives (including having to bail out on a book I was co-authoring due to time constraints) leave me not regretting dropping out. Pursuing a CS degree is often a heavy burden with few intellectual rewards.