Noctilucent clouds

Wangler · 24th July 2009, 02:39 PM

Beautiful display of noctilucent clouds above my hometown last night.

These typically only appear at latitudes above 50 degrees, but they have been getting lower and lower (I'm at 42 degrees N).

No record of these clouds before 1885, so they are a recent phenomenon.

Some speculate that climate change may be part of the factor in their appearing with increasing frequency.

They are really beautiful to the eye, they look like they are made of glowing neon.

Pink Booties · 24th July 2009, 02:44 PM

I saw that shot featured on a weather site. Very neat.

Wangler · 24th July 2009, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

I saw that shot featured on a weather site. Very neat.

Someone hacked my harddrive, then!

casebro · 24th July 2009, 06:26 PM

I take it the phenomenon is explained by high clouds catching the setting suns light, only at far northern latitudes the sun never sets. So there is no reason the clouds were never seen 'so far south before' except maybe the clouds are higher? Or the sun is reflecting off of open ocean?

casebro · 24th July 2009, 06:29 PM

Or maybe like the WWII sub captain who saw an enemy convoy lined up in the sky? The convoy was 20 miles away, or twice as far as the horizon. I don't know the phenom involved, but I guess it is possible to 'see' light over the horizon.

Pink Booties · 24th July 2009, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

I take it the phenomenon is explained by high clouds catching the setting suns light, only at far northern latitudes the sun never sets. So there is no reason the clouds were never seen 'so far south before' except maybe the clouds are higher? Or the sun is reflecting off of open ocean?

The clouds must be at a certain high altitude, and the sunlight has to be at just the right angle, and there must be a specific content of water in the clouds...

Wangler, nobody hacked your drive. I checked, and the shot was a different example, though similar.

bokonon · 24th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wangler

No record of these clouds before 1885, so they are a recent phenomenon.

No record of live coelacanths before 1938, so they too are a recent phenomenon.

Wangler · 24th July 2009, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by bokonon

No record of live coelacanths before 1938, so they too are a recent phenomenon.

It's a pretty sure bet that anything "live" is a recent phenomenon.

portlandatheist · 24th July 2009, 10:11 PM

Wangler, you are very lucky to have spotted these clouds. I read at space weather that for the very first time they were spotted at relatively low latitudes and to watch out for them the following evening. I looked but didn't find any. A friend of mine who lives on the Oregon coast caught some about a year ago. I find them fascinating and really want to see them some day. I think one theory is that particles from space travel are seeding these clouds. One thing is for sure: they are becoming more common for whatever reason.

bokonon · 24th July 2009, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Wangler

It's a pretty sure bet that anything "live" is a recent phenomenon.

And it's a pretty sure bet that any cloud you see is less than a week old, and any sunlight you see illuminating it is less than a day old.

Skeptic Ginger · 25th July 2009, 12:28 AM

Above 50⁰? No wonder I never see them. I didn't know that and I am a big time space weather fan. They have been particularly prominent this summer.

Spaceweather photo gallery of noctilucent clouds

dikkedeur · 25th July 2009, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

I think one theory is that particles from space travel are seeding these clouds.

The liquid H2/O2 based rockets, such as the space shuttle main engine also dump water vapour in the higher layers of the atmosphere. I'm not sure if the amounts are significant enough, though.

Skeptic Ginger · 25th July 2009, 02:03 AM

Theory of Noctilucent Clouds

Quote:

Mesopause is one of the most difficult locations in Earth's atmosphere to observe. Satellites, lidars, and radars, for example, can be used to do remote sensing measurements, but In situ measurements can only be carried out using expensive rockets. Remote sensing methods cannot provide direct measurements, and a rocket provide data with very limited spatial or temporal resolution (they penetrate the thin NLC layer with high speed in a few seconds, and only in two highly localized points, once on their way up and once on their way down).

Kind of interesting we can determine the composition of distant stars by their spectrographic pattern but no one is sure whether noctilucent clouds are dust or ice.

NobbyNobbs · 25th July 2009, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by Wangler

It's a pretty sure bet that anything "live" is a recent phenomenon.

I'll take that bet.

Wangler · 25th July 2009, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Wangler, you are very lucky to have spotted these clouds. I read at space weather that for the very first time they were spotted at relatively low latitudes and to watch out for them the following evening. I looked but didn't find any. A friend of mine who lives on the Oregon coast caught some about a year ago. I find them fascinating and really want to see them some day. I think one theory is that particles from space travel are seeding these clouds. One thing is for sure: they are becoming more common for whatever reason.

I was very lucky...I have been looking for them on a regular basis, but this night my daughter saw them before I did....believe me, the pictures don't do them justice...they are magnificient.

I hope you can see them someday soon.

macdoc · 25th July 2009, 10:08 AM

Wangler

Quote:

In theory then, some lichens are immortal,

http://www.earthlife.net/lichens/growth.html

Noctilucent are gorgeous

portlandatheist · 29th July 2009, 02:57 PM

Here are some photos taken recently in Oregon:
http://www.katu.com/blogs/weather/50962302.html?blog=y

macdoc · 30th July 2009, 02:42 PM

Had to post this up here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...stronauts.html

Unreal

portlandatheist · 30th July 2009, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by macdoc

Had to post this up here

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Picture97.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...stronauts.html

Unreal

Amazing.Hitting the stratosphere is like hitting a brick wall.

24th July 2009, 02:39 PM	#1
Wangler Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: WA State Posts: 1,734	Noctilucent clouds Beautiful display of noctilucent clouds above my hometown last night. These typically only appear at latitudes above 50 degrees, but they have been getting lower and lower (I'm at 42 degrees N). No record of these clouds before 1885, so they are a recent phenomenon. Some speculate that climate change may be part of the factor in their appearing with increasing frequency. They are really beautiful to the eye, they look like they are made of glowing neon.

24th July 2009, 06:26 PM	#4
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	I take it the phenomenon is explained by high clouds catching the setting suns light, only at far northern latitudes the sun never sets. So there is no reason the clouds were never seen 'so far south before' except maybe the clouds are higher? Or the sun is reflecting off of open ocean?
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

24th July 2009, 06:29 PM	#5
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	Or maybe like the WWII sub captain who saw an enemy convoy lined up in the sky? The convoy was 20 miles away, or twice as far as the horizon. I don't know the phenom involved, but I guess it is possible to 'see' light over the horizon.
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

24th July 2009, 08:23 PM	#7
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224	Originally Posted by Wangler No record of these clouds before 1885, so they are a recent phenomenon. No record of live coelacanths before 1938, so they too are a recent phenomenon.
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224

24th July 2009, 11:37 PM	#10
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224	Originally Posted by Wangler It's a pretty sure bet that anything "live" is a recent phenomenon. And it's a pretty sure bet that any cloud you see is less than a week old, and any sunlight you see illuminating it is less than a day old.
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224

24th July 2009, 02:44 PM	#2
Pink Booties Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: in your guard, up on points, and stalling. Posts: 3,537	I saw that shot featured on a weather site. Very neat.

24th July 2009, 06:20 PM	#3
Wangler Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: WA State Posts: 1,734	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 I saw that shot featured on a weather site. Very neat. Someone hacked my harddrive, then!

24th July 2009, 06:45 PM	#6
Pink Booties Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: in your guard, up on points, and stalling. Posts: 3,537	Originally Posted by casebro I take it the phenomenon is explained by high clouds catching the setting suns light, only at far northern latitudes the sun never sets. So there is no reason the clouds were never seen 'so far south before' except maybe the clouds are higher? Or the sun is reflecting off of open ocean? The clouds must be at a certain high altitude, and the sunlight has to be at just the right angle, and there must be a specific content of water in the clouds... Wangler, nobody hacked your drive. I checked, and the shot was a different example, though similar.

24th July 2009, 09:14 PM	#8
Wangler Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: WA State Posts: 1,734	Originally Posted by bokonon No record of live coelacanths before 1938, so they too are a recent phenomenon. It's a pretty sure bet that anything "live" is a recent phenomenon.

24th July 2009, 10:11 PM	#9
portlandatheist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,162	Wangler, you are very lucky to have spotted these clouds. I read at space weather that for the very first time they were spotted at relatively low latitudes and to watch out for them the following evening. I looked but didn't find any. A friend of mine who lives on the Oregon coast caught some about a year ago. I find them fascinating and really want to see them some day. I think one theory is that particles from space travel are seeding these clouds. One thing is for sure: they are becoming more common for whatever reason.

25th July 2009, 12:28 AM	#11
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods Posts: 19,317	Above 50⁰? No wonder I never see them. I didn't know that and I am a big time space weather fan. They have been particularly prominent this summer. Spaceweather photo gallery of noctilucent clouds
	__________________ Sk'p' 'el (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.) Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th July 2009 at 12:29 AM.*

25th July 2009, 12:59 AM	#12
dikkedeur Scholar Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 70	Originally Posted by portlandatheist I think one theory is that particles from space travel are seeding these clouds. The liquid H2/O2 based rockets, such as the space shuttle main engine also dump water vapour in the higher layers of the atmosphere. I'm not sure if the amounts are significant enough, though.
dikkedeur Scholar Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 70

25th July 2009, 02:03 AM	#13
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods Posts: 19,317	Theory of Noctilucent Clouds Quote: Mesopause is one of the most difficult locations in Earth's atmosphere to observe. Satellites, lidars, and radars, for example, can be used to do remote sensing measurements, but In situ measurements can only be carried out using expensive rockets. Remote sensing methods cannot provide direct measurements, and a rocket provide data with very limited spatial or temporal resolution (they penetrate the thin NLC layer with high speed in a few seconds, and only in two highly localized points, once on their way up and once on their way down). Kind of interesting we can determine the composition of distant stars by their spectrographic pattern but no one is sure whether noctilucent clouds are dust or ice.
	__________________ Sk'p' 'el (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (*Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.)

25th July 2009, 05:00 AM	#14
NobbyNobbs Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 4,976	Originally Posted by Wangler It's a pretty sure bet that anything "live" is a recent phenomenon. I'll take that bet.
	__________________ I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant

25th July 2009, 09:45 AM	#15
Wangler Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: WA State Posts: 1,734	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Wangler, you are very lucky to have spotted these clouds. I read at space weather that for the very first time they were spotted at relatively low latitudes and to watch out for them the following evening. I looked but didn't find any. A friend of mine who lives on the Oregon coast caught some about a year ago. I find them fascinating and really want to see them some day. I think one theory is that particles from space travel are seeding these clouds. One thing is for sure: they are becoming more common for whatever reason. I was very lucky...I have been looking for them on a regular basis, but this night my daughter saw them before I did....believe me, the pictures don't do them justice...they are magnificient. I hope you can see them someday soon.

25th July 2009, 10:08 AM	#16
macdoc Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 2,616	Wangler Quote: In theory then, some lichens are immortal, http://www.earthlife.net/lichens/growth.html Noctilucent are gorgeous
	__________________ _{Nature Reports Climate Change Copenhagen Climate Change Synthesis Report 2009 http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.com/} _{Anyone wishing a list of mainstream climate science sources to get up speed feel free to PM. Others have found the links useful.}

29th July 2009, 02:57 PM	#17
portlandatheist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,162	Here are some photos taken recently in Oregon: http://www.katu.com/blogs/weather/50962302.html?blog=y

30th July 2009, 02:42 PM	#18
macdoc Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 2,616	Had to post this up here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...stronauts.html Unreal
	__________________ _{Nature Reports Climate Change Copenhagen Climate Change Synthesis Report 2009 http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.com/} _{Anyone wishing a list of mainstream climate science sources to get up speed feel free to PM. Others have found the links useful.}

30th July 2009, 04:35 PM	#19
portlandatheist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,162	Originally Posted by macdoc Had to post this up here http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Picture97.jpg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...stronauts.html Unreal Amazing.Hitting the stratosphere is like hitting a brick wall.