Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks - Page 10

DC · 31st July 2009, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.

how? by all those things you keep ignoring or belive to be justified

FireGarden · 31st July 2009, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

As your hero, Benny Morris, has written, the nakba was the fault of the Arabs. Need I already re-post Morris's comments, given your penchant for misrepresenting him and your warped view of history?

War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war.

Quote:

Testy! First, Morris was your hero when you thought he believed Israel had a governmental policy of mass Arab expulsion.

Never my hero.
I used the phrase: "Historians from both sides of the political spectrum" to indicate that even people whose politics is entirely different to my own agree on certain facts. You should try widening your outlook a bit. It will help you see past the politics of a very political conflict.

I claimed that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. Morris does indeed agree with that. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Quote:

Here's a clue for you, since you are without one: Ben-Gurion wore two hats during the 1948 War, as BOTH Prime Minister and Minister of Defense. When Ben-Gurion ordered the Israeli military to evacuate Arabs, it was for MILITARY reasons, NOT for POLITICAL reasons.

Are you now claiming that the minister of defense is not part of the government? Is that what your defense has fallen down to?

Quote:

Massacres were perpetrated by Arabs before the war even started. The Hebron Massacre happened in 1929, which you, no doubt, are also unaware of.

Unlike you I don't try to hide or deny historical facts.

FireGarden · 31st July 2009, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.

You want us to explain the Nakba without reference to "obscure military operations during the '48 War"? On what basis do you decide what is obscure?

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"

Marc39 · 31st July 2009, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war.

The PLO and Hamas charters are violations of the laws against genocide and terrorism. Let's start there. No need to go back 60 years in history.

Quote:

I claimed that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. Morris does indeed agree with that. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Populations are displaced during war. 350,000 Iraqis were displaced during the battles in Fallujah. 10,000 buildings were demolished and another 25,000 buildings were smashed. Guess what? It's war and war isn't pretty. But, the blame for the consequences suffered by the Arabs is squarely on their heads since they initiated the war. You snooze, you lose.

Quote:

e you now claiming that the minister of defense is not part of the government? Is that what your defense has fallen down to?

Ben-Gurion made both military decisions and political deciisons. When Arab expulsions occurred, they were to gain military advantage, which is the objective of war, and not to expel for the purposes of eliminating an Arab population in the nascent state of Israel. Ben-Gurion knew UN Res. 181 called for an Arab minority in Israel. Plus, 181 authorized the creation of an Arab/Palestinian state nearby, so, expulsion was not even necessary.

Quote:

Unlike you I don't try to hide or deny historical facts.

What world are you living in?

FireGarden · 31st July 2009, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Ben-Gurion made both military decisions and political deciisons. When Arab expulsions occurred, they were to gain military advantage, which is the objective of war, and not to expel for the purposes of eliminating an Arab population in the nascent state of Israel.

Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed.

Marc39 · 31st July 2009, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed.

Moral of the story: War is bad. Don't start them.

Marc39 · 31st July 2009, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed.

Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation. What you seemingly are unable to discern is the significant difference between individual, tactical expulsions for military gain, which are not unique, and one widespread, mass Zionist-directed expulsion of Arabs for political gain. I don't think such a distinction can be made any clearer without resorting to using pictures and baby talk.

FireGarden · 31st July 2009, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation. What you seemingly are unable to discern is the significant difference between individual, tactical expulsions for military gain, which are not unique, and one widespread, mass Zionist-directed expulsion of Arabs for political gain.

My claim was this:
Historians from all over the political spectrum -- from Benny Morris to Ilan Pappe -- agree that Arabs were forced out by the Israeli government.

You said I misrepresented Morris. It turns out you are wrong. I did not misrepresent Morris, since he does agree that the Israeli government expelled Arabs.

Thank you,
Goodnight.

a_unique_person · 31st July 2009, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation.

Thunder · 31st July 2009, 07:43 PM

“Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949”

“During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

The Fool · 31st July 2009, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.

oh dearly me, how many times do you have to be told? I don't hold with the view "Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs" A 5 year old would understand that its pointless stalking someone with requests to provide justification for something they have not proposed. Do you understand this simple concept?

I have asked you to quote where I have expressed this opinion and you can't.

Look Mark39 I know its probably one of the pre-packaged arguments you begged off the members on the Israel forum but if you want to try letting it out for a run on this forum first find someone who has actually stated the things it is ment to argue against.

I know its frustrating to have the best original argument you have ever borrowed not be usable but tough....find someone who expresses the views your borrowed position argues against.

Just curious about another thing...You tell the people over there that you are not well informed on the middle east and need them to help you with arguments you can use on JREF members (even pleading with them not to tell JREF members about the Israel forum )....good god man...why do you tell them you are ill informed?? why don't you tell them about your Princeton degree and your study under eminent professors? I'm sure they would like to know that they have such a middle east scholar among them.....They might wonder (like I do) why you get so many basic facts wrong but hey....maybe you were not at your sharpest the day that particular thing was covered at princeton...

...know what marc39? You are the funniest thing that has blown through here for a while, I'm going to miss you when you are gone.

But all good things must come to an end so goodbye for now, I'll be back to correct your next major factual error Mr Princeton grad......

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

oh dearly me, how many times do you have to be told? I don't hold with the view "Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs" A 5 year old would understand that its pointless stalking someone with requests to provide justification for something they have not proposed. Do you understand this simple concept?

I have asked you to quote where I have expressed this opinion and you can't.

Look Mark39 I know its probably one of the pre-packaged arguments you begged off the members on the Israel forum but if you want to try letting it out for a run on this forum first find someone who has actually stated the things it is ment to argue against.

I know its frustrating to have the best original argument you have ever borrowed not be usable but tough....find someone who expresses the views your borrowed position argues against.

Just curious about another thing...You tell the people over there that you are not well informed on the middle east and need them to help you with arguments you can use on JREF members (even pleading with them not to tell JREF members about the Israel forum )....good god man...why do you tell them you are ill informed?? why don't you tell them about your Princeton degree and your study under eminent professors? I'm sure they would like to know that they have such a middle east scholar among them.....They might wonder (like I do) why you get so many basic facts wrong but hey....maybe you were not at your sharpest the day that particular thing was covered at princeton...

...know what marc39? You are the funniest thing that has blown through here for a while, I'm going to miss you when you are gone.

But all good things must come to an end so goodbye for now, I'll be back to correct your next major factual error Mr Princeton grad......

Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done.

DC · 1st August 2009, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done.

oh dear. Marc you do realise that for you and other ISraelis, Israel was surely not a nakba. but for others it was one.

For the Nazis, the Holocaust was not a Nakba, but for the jews and roma etc it was a nakba.

For white people the time of slavery was not a catastrophe, but sure for Black it was.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

oh dear. Marc you do realise that for you and other ISraelis, Israel was surely not a nakba. but for others it was one.

How so? After hundreds of posts, nobody, yet, can say. So much for the whole idiotic concept.

Quote:

For the Nazis, the Holocaust was not a Nakba, but for the jews and roma etc it was a nakba.

You suffer from the inability to discern between historical fact and historical propaganda.

DC · 1st August 2009, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

How so? After hundreds of posts, nobody, yet, can say. So much for the whole idiotic concept.

You suffer from the inability to discern between historical fact and historical propaganda.

erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them.

in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore?

you have an inability to understand other point of views.

you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.

DC · 1st August 2009, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them.

in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore?

you have an inability to understand other point of views.

you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.

should religous people stop calling earthquakes, catastrophes? because such an earthquake is God's will.

DC · 1st August 2009, 04:41 AM

and the creation of Israel was and is a catastrophe. Look, more than 60 years later there is still a huge armed conflict going on. that is a catastrophe. and some do blame the Israelis or Jews for it, i dont but still it is a catastrophe.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them.

in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore?

you have an inability to understand other point of views.

you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.

I don't agree. Israel has been a huge plus for Arabs. The presence of a democratic state that embraces human rights and civil liberties, while despised for being a "Zionist entity", puts pressure on the brutal and repressive Arab dictatorships for reform.

Additionally, historically, had Israel not existed, there likely would not be even a chance for Palestinian statehood.

Arabs should thank Israel and Jews instead of cursing them.

DC · 1st August 2009, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

I don't agree. Israel has been a huge plus for Arabs. The presence of a democratic state that embraces human rights and civil liberties, while despised for being a "Zionist entity", puts pressure on the brutal and repressive Arab dictatorships for reform.

Additionally, historically, had Israel not existed, there likely would not be even a chance for Palestinian statehood.

Arabs should thank Israel and Jews instead of cursing them.

yes thanks for demonstrating your inability to understand other points of view.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

yes thanks for demonstrating your inability to understand other points of view.

And, to you, for demonstrating an inability to comprehend complex concepts.

The Fool · 1st August 2009, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done.

quite amusing....you feel you have finally convinced me I am wrong in holding an opinion I don't and never have held? An opinion you keep telling me I have "asserted" but unfortunately you cannot find to quote.

Tell your Israel forum coaches you want to return the failed arguments and get your money back

I'm still curious about which is the real marc39...the one on the Israel forum that knows little and begs for help or the one here that knows everything and is a harvard graduate on the subject........come on , don't keep us in suspense.... people are interested

I honestly think you would be better to make up a single life history and stick to it. All these different ones littered all over the internet does nothing for your credibility. The sockpuppet on this forum that you were suspended for (where you were a child) was particularly amusing. You told the Israel forum people not to tell Jref members about the place, shall we help you keep your little secret?

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

quite amusing....you feel you have finally convinced me I am wrong in holding an opinion I don't and never have held? An opinion you keep telling me I have "asserted" but unfortunately you cannot find to quote.

Tell your Israel forum coaches you want to return the failed arguments and get your money back

I'm still curious about which is the real marc39...the one on the Israel forum that knows little and begs for help or the one here that knows everything and is a harvard graduate on the subject........come on , don't keep us in suspense.... people are interested

I honestly think you would be better to make up a single life history and stick to it. All these different ones littered all over the internet does nothing for your credibility. The sockpuppet on this forum that you were suspended for (where you were a child) was particularly amusing. You told the Israel forum people not to tell Jref members about the place, shall we help you keep your little secret?

You have been busted. Instead of whining, study the subject matter and I won't have to embarrass you.

DC · 1st August 2009, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

You have been busted. Instead of whining, study the subject matter and I won't have to embarrass you.

and thats how Marc really feels now, Busted and embarrassed.

it made my day

The Fool · 1st August 2009, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

and thats how Marc really feels now, Busted and embarrassed.

it made my day

" You all don't understand....Marc39 was victorious...just like we were"

LMAO...

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

and the creation of Israel was and is a catastrophe. Look, more than 60 years later there is still a huge armed conflict going on. that is a catastrophe. and some do blame the Israelis or Jews for it, i dont but still it is a catastrophe.

Arab resistance to and aggression against Israel has repeatedly resulted in "catastrophic" consequences for...Arabs. Maybe, one day, Arabs will learn not to be their own nakba.

The Fool · 1st August 2009, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Arab resistance to and aggression against Israel has repeatedly resulted in "catastrophic" consequences for...Arabs. Maybe, one day, Arabs will learn not to be their own nakba.

what are they resisting Marc39? Maybe the fate you have in mind for them? What is that fate?

what do you think should happen to non jews living west of the Jordan again?

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

what are they resisting Marc39??

Historically and intellectually astute people would respond to such a patently inane question that Arabs are resisting a legally created sovereign state established with international urging and recognition, from the Allies of World War I--Great Britain, France, Italy and Japan--to all 51 members of the League of Nations to the UN to both Houses of the US Congress, Winston Churchill, US presidents Woodrow Wilson, Calvin Coolidge, Harry Truman and the vast majority of US presidents and political leaders.

Darat · 1st August 2009, 06:21 AM

To all participants: Stop the personal attacks, Rule 12 breaches and breaches of the "Be civil and polite" guideline. Continuing to breach your Membership Agreement in this thread will result in a suspension.

Posted By:Darat

Monketey Ghost · 1st August 2009, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Moral of the story: Losing wars is bad. Don't ~~start~~ lose them.

Fa-hiiixed.

Srsly, everyone should chill. Keep it on the upper road, let's.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

What is that fate?

"They" have had multiple opportunities for statehood. I've written about this. Try the search function.

The Fool · 1st August 2009, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Historically and intellectually astute people would respond to such a patently inane question that Arabs are resisting a legally created sovereign state established with international urging and recognition, from the Allies of World War I--Great Britain, France, Italy and Japan--to all 51 members of the League of Nations to the UN to both Houses of the US Congress, Winston Churchill, US presidents Woodrow Wilson, Calvin Coolidge, Harry Truman and the vast majority of US presidents and political leaders.

Ok...but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs. In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are? Is it unreasonable to expect that those that choose not to leave would resist?

Is there anything they need worry about? Can they stay?

I'm actually not asking about legal opinion as you are much more highly qualified that I am in the legal area having worked as a legal adviser to the US state department (as you claim on Politicalgroove.com). I am interested in your own view...Do you feel they should all just leave?

Thunder · 1st August 2009, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

Ok...but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs. In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are? Is it unreasonable to expect that those that choose not to leave would resist?

Is there anything they need worry about? Can they stay?

I'm actually not asking about legal opinion as you are much more highly qualified that I am in the legal area having worked as a legal adviser to the US state department (as you claim on Politicalgroove.com). I am interested in your own view...Do you feel they should all just leave?

the Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens and pay Israelis taxes. therefore, they should stay right where they are.

if the jewish settlers would also agree to become citizens of Palestine and pay Palestinian taxes, they should also, for the most part, be allowed to stay.

a sizeable Jewish minority in a Palestinian-Arab state could be a good thing.

The Fool · 1st August 2009, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

the Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens and pay Israelis taxes. therefore, they should stay right where they are.

if the jewish settlers would also agree to become citizens of Palestine and pay Palestinian taxes, they should also, for the most part, be allowed to stay.

a sizeable Jewish minority in a Palestinian-Arab state could be a good thing.

No, I was asking about all Non-Jews west of the Jordan. Should they be allowed to stay where they are?

Thunder · 1st August 2009, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

No, I was asking about all Non-Jews west of the Jordan. Should they be allowed to stay where they are?

no true democracy would ever dare to transfer a large portion of their citizens to another state. that would be ethnic cleansing. though some racist ultra-Zionists want to strip the Israeli-Arabs of their right to vote.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

Ok...but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs.

The direct consequence of offensively launching a war against Israel. Wars inevitably cause population movement. 350,000 Iraqis were displaced during the battles of Fallujah.

Quote:

In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are?

What territory, specifically, "west of the Jordan"

Quote:

Is it unreasonable to expect that those that choose not to leave would resist?

Resist on what basis?

Quote:

Is there anything they need worry about?

Since several Palestinians have been hanged by Hamas and 2,000 Palestinians have died in Fatah--Hamas conflicts, "they" probably need to worry about their safety jeopardized by their own elected governments.

Quote:

Can they stay?

Muslim Palestinians are chasing Christians out in droves. Why can't they stay?

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

No, I was asking about all Non-Jews west of the Jordan. Should they be allowed to stay where they are?

Should Christians be allowed to stay where they are? Because, as you are no doubt extremely well-informed on the subject, Christians are being persecuted by Muslims out of the area.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are?

In your informed view, should Palestinians "east of the Jordan" be allowed to stay where they are?

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

.but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs

What were the key factors that caused "displacement of Arabs"?

bigjelmapro · 1st August 2009, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

My claim was this:
Historians from all over the political spectrum -- from Benny Morris to Ilan Pappe -- agree that Arabs were forced out by the Israeli government.

Both Pappe and Morris (the latter which admitted so) didn't use the Israeli archives to justify their claims. Pappe is even worse and uses simply the witness testimony of a handful of Palestinian Arabs to make his claims, some not even firsthand.

From Morris to Pappe is not really a spectrum, its more of a corner.

Marc39 · 1st August 2009, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Both Pappe and Morris (the latter which admitted so) didn't use the Israeli archives to justify their claims. Pappe is even worse and uses simply the witness testimony of a Palestinian Arabs to make his claims.

From Morris to Pappe is not really a spectrum, its more of a corner.

Worse, still, neither Morris nor Pappe use Arab archives, resulting in a one-sided, often-anti-Zionist, point-of-view and, ultimately, a flawed historiography.

31st July 2009, 07:21 AM	#361
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Marc39 Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs. how? by all those things you keep ignoring or belive to be justified
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st July 2009, 08:58 AM	#362
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by Marc39 As your hero, Benny Morris, has written, the nakba was the fault of the Arabs. Need I already re-post Morris's comments, given your penchant for misrepresenting him and your warped view of history? War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war. Quote: Testy! First, Morris was your hero when you thought he believed Israel had a governmental policy of mass Arab expulsion. Never my hero. I used the phrase: "Historians from both sides of the political spectrum" to indicate that even people whose politics is entirely different to my own agree on certain facts. You should try widening your outlook a bit. It will help you see past the politics of a very political conflict. I claimed that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. Morris does indeed agree with that. You'll have to learn to live with it. Quote: Here's a clue for you, since you are without one: Ben-Gurion wore two hats during the 1948 War, as BOTH Prime Minister and Minister of Defense. When Ben-Gurion ordered the Israeli military to evacuate Arabs, it was for MILITARY reasons, NOT for POLITICAL reasons. Are you now claiming that the minister of defense is not part of the government? Is that what your defense has fallen down to? Quote: Massacres were perpetrated by Arabs before the war even started. The Hebron Massacre happened in 1929, which you, no doubt, are also unaware of. Unlike you I don't try to hide or deny historical facts.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

31st July 2009, 09:02 AM	#363
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by Marc39 Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs. You want us to explain the Nakba without reference to "obscure military operations during the '48 War"? On what basis do you decide what is obscure? One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

31st July 2009, 09:16 AM	#364
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by FireGarden War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war. The PLO and Hamas charters are violations of the laws against genocide and terrorism. Let's start there. No need to go back 60 years in history. Quote: I claimed that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. Morris does indeed agree with that. You'll have to learn to live with it. Populations are displaced during war. 350,000 Iraqis were displaced during the battles in Fallujah. 10,000 buildings were demolished and another 25,000 buildings were smashed. Guess what? It's war and war isn't pretty. But, the blame for the consequences suffered by the Arabs is squarely on their heads since they initiated the war. You snooze, you lose. Quote: e you now claiming that the minister of defense is not part of the government? Is that what your defense has fallen down to? Ben-Gurion made both military decisions and political deciisons. When Arab expulsions occurred, they were to gain military advantage, which is the objective of war, and not to expel for the purposes of eliminating an Arab population in the nascent state of Israel. Ben-Gurion knew UN Res. 181 called for an Arab minority in Israel. Plus, 181 authorized the creation of an Arab/Palestinian state nearby, so, expulsion was not even necessary. Quote: Unlike you I don't try to hide or deny historical facts. What world are you living in?
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

31st July 2009, 09:26 AM	#365
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by Marc39 Ben-Gurion made both military decisions and political deciisons. When Arab expulsions occurred, they were to gain military advantage, which is the objective of war, and not to expel for the purposes of eliminating an Arab population in the nascent state of Israel. Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

31st July 2009, 09:52 AM	#366
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by FireGarden Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed. Moral of the story: War is bad. Don't start them.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

31st July 2009, 09:57 AM	#367
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by FireGarden Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed. Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation. What you seemingly are unable to discern is the significant difference between individual, tactical expulsions for military gain, which are not unique, and one widespread, mass Zionist-directed expulsion of Arabs for political gain. I don't think such a distinction can be made any clearer without resorting to using pictures and baby talk.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

31st July 2009, 10:34 AM	#368
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by Marc39 Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation. What you seemingly are unable to discern is the significant difference between individual, tactical expulsions for military gain, which are not unique, and one widespread, mass Zionist-directed expulsion of Arabs for political gain. My claim was this: Historians from all over the political spectrum -- from Benny Morris to Ilan Pappe -- agree that Arabs were forced out by the Israeli government. You said I misrepresented Morris. It turns out you are wrong. I did not misrepresent Morris, since he does agree that the Israeli government expelled Arabs. Thank you, Goodnight.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

31st July 2009, 04:07 PM	#369
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,325	Originally Posted by Marc39 Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st July 2009, 07:43 PM	#370
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	“Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949” “During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
	Last edited by Thunder; 31st July 2009 at 07:44 PM.

31st July 2009, 09:15 PM	#371
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Marc39 Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs. oh dearly me, how many times do you have to be told? I don't hold with the view "Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs" A 5 year old would understand that its pointless stalking someone with requests to provide justification for something they have not proposed. Do you understand this simple concept? I have asked you to quote where I have expressed this opinion and you can't. Look Mark39 I know its probably one of the pre-packaged arguments you begged off the members on the Israel forum but if you want to try letting it out for a run on this forum first find someone who has actually stated the things it is ment to argue against. I know its frustrating to have the best original argument you have ever borrowed not be usable but tough....find someone who expresses the views your borrowed position argues against. Just curious about another thing...You tell the people over there that you are not well informed on the middle east and need them to help you with arguments you can use on JREF members (even pleading with them not to tell JREF members about the Israel forum )....good god man...why do you tell them you are ill informed?? why don't you tell them about your Princeton degree and your study under eminent professors? I'm sure they would like to know that they have such a middle east scholar among them.....They might wonder (like I do) why you get so many basic facts wrong but hey....maybe you were not at your sharpest the day that particular thing was covered at princeton... ...know what marc39? You are the funniest thing that has blown through here for a while, I'm going to miss you when you are gone. But all good things must come to an end so goodbye for now, I'll be back to correct your next major factual error Mr Princeton grad......
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st August 2009, 03:45 AM	#372
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by The Fool oh dearly me, how many times do you have to be told? I don't hold with the view "Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs" A 5 year old would understand that its pointless stalking someone with requests to provide justification for something they have not proposed. Do you understand this simple concept? I have asked you to quote where I have expressed this opinion and you can't. Look Mark39 I know its probably one of the pre-packaged arguments you begged off the members on the Israel forum but if you want to try letting it out for a run on this forum first find someone who has actually stated the things it is ment to argue against. I know its frustrating to have the best original argument you have ever borrowed not be usable but tough....find someone who expresses the views your borrowed position argues against. Just curious about another thing...You tell the people over there that you are not well informed on the middle east and need them to help you with arguments you can use on JREF members (even pleading with them not to tell JREF members about the Israel forum )....good god man...why do you tell them you are ill informed?? why don't you tell them about your Princeton degree and your study under eminent professors? I'm sure they would like to know that they have such a middle east scholar among them.....They might wonder (like I do) why you get so many basic facts wrong but hey....maybe you were not at your sharpest the day that particular thing was covered at princeton... ...know what marc39? You are the funniest thing that has blown through here for a while, I'm going to miss you when you are gone. But all good things must come to an end so goodbye for now, I'll be back to correct your next major factual error Mr Princeton grad...... Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Last edited by Marc39; 1st August 2009 at 03:51 AM.

1st August 2009, 04:24 AM	#373
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Marc39 Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done. oh dear. Marc you do realise that for you and other ISraelis, Israel was surely not a nakba. but for others it was one. For the Nazis, the Holocaust was not a Nakba, but for the jews and roma etc it was a nakba. For white people the time of slavery was not a catastrophe, but sure for Black it was.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st August 2009, 04:28 AM	#374
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney oh dear. Marc you do realise that for you and other ISraelis, Israel was surely not a nakba. but for others it was one. How so? After hundreds of posts, nobody, yet, can say. So much for the whole idiotic concept. Quote: For the Nazis, the Holocaust was not a Nakba, but for the jews and roma etc it was a nakba. You suffer from the inability to discern between historical fact and historical propaganda.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

1st August 2009, 04:36 AM	#375
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Marc39 How so? After hundreds of posts, nobody, yet, can say. So much for the whole idiotic concept. You suffer from the inability to discern between historical fact and historical propaganda. erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them. in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore? you have an inability to understand other point of views. you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st August 2009, 04:37 AM	#376
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them. in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore? you have an inability to understand other point of views. you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it. should religous people stop calling earthquakes, catastrophes? because such an earthquake is God's will.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st August 2009, 04:41 AM	#377
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	and the creation of Israel was and is a catastrophe. Look, more than 60 years later there is still a huge armed conflict going on. that is a catastrophe. and some do blame the Israelis or Jews for it, i dont but still it is a catastrophe.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st August 2009, 04:49 AM	#378
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them. in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore? you have an inability to understand other point of views. you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it. I don't agree. Israel has been a huge plus for Arabs. The presence of a democratic state that embraces human rights and civil liberties, while despised for being a "Zionist entity", puts pressure on the brutal and repressive Arab dictatorships for reform. Additionally, historically, had Israel not existed, there likely would not be even a chance for Palestinian statehood. Arabs should thank Israel and Jews instead of cursing them.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

1st August 2009, 04:58 AM	#379
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Marc39 I don't agree. Israel has been a huge plus for Arabs. The presence of a democratic state that embraces human rights and civil liberties, while despised for being a "Zionist entity", puts pressure on the brutal and repressive Arab dictatorships for reform. Additionally, historically, had Israel not existed, there likely would not be even a chance for Palestinian statehood. Arabs should thank Israel and Jews instead of cursing them. yes thanks for demonstrating your inability to understand other points of view.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st August 2009, 04:59 AM	#380
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney yes thanks for demonstrating your inability to understand other points of view. And, to you, for demonstrating an inability to comprehend complex concepts.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

1st August 2009, 05:07 AM	#381
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Marc39 Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done. quite amusing....you feel you have finally convinced me I am wrong in holding an opinion I don't and never have held? An opinion you keep telling me I have "asserted" but unfortunately you cannot find to quote. Tell your Israel forum coaches you want to return the failed arguments and get your money back I'm still curious about which is the real marc39...the one on the Israel forum that knows little and begs for help or the one here that knows everything and is a harvard graduate on the subject........come on , don't keep us in suspense.... people are interested I honestly think you would be better to make up a single life history and stick to it. All these different ones littered all over the internet does nothing for your credibility. The sockpuppet on this forum that you were suspended for (where you were a child) was particularly amusing. You told the Israel forum people not to tell Jref members about the place, shall we help you keep your little secret?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st August 2009, 05:08 AM	#382
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by The Fool quite amusing....you feel you have finally convinced me I am wrong in holding an opinion I don't and never have held? An opinion you keep telling me I have "asserted" but unfortunately you cannot find to quote. Tell your Israel forum coaches you want to return the failed arguments and get your money back I'm still curious about which is the real marc39...the one on the Israel forum that knows little and begs for help or the one here that knows everything and is a harvard graduate on the subject........come on , don't keep us in suspense.... people are interested I honestly think you would be better to make up a single life history and stick to it. All these different ones littered all over the internet does nothing for your credibility. The sockpuppet on this forum that you were suspended for (where you were a child) was particularly amusing. You told the Israel forum people not to tell Jref members about the place, shall we help you keep your little secret? You have been busted. Instead of whining, study the subject matter and I won't have to embarrass you.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Last edited by Marc39; 1st August 2009 at 05:09 AM.

1st August 2009, 05:17 AM	#383
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Marc39 You have been busted. Instead of whining, study the subject matter and I won't have to embarrass you. and thats how Marc really feels now, Busted and embarrassed. it made my day
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st August 2009, 05:30 AM	#384
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney and thats how Marc really feels now, Busted and embarrassed. it made my day " You all don't understand....Marc39 was victorious...just like we were" LMAO...
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st August 2009, 05:59 AM	#385
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney and the creation of Israel was and is a catastrophe. Look, more than 60 years later there is still a huge armed conflict going on. that is a catastrophe. and some do blame the Israelis or Jews for it, i dont but still it is a catastrophe. Arab resistance to and aggression against Israel has repeatedly resulted in "catastrophic" consequences for...Arabs. Maybe, one day, Arabs will learn not to be their own nakba.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

1st August 2009, 06:06 AM	#386
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Marc39 Arab resistance to and aggression against Israel has repeatedly resulted in "catastrophic" consequences for...Arabs. Maybe, one day, Arabs will learn not to be their own nakba. what are they resisting Marc39? Maybe the fate you have in mind for them? What is that fate? what do you think should happen to non jews living west of the Jordan again?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st August 2009, 06:17 AM	#387
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by The Fool what are they resisting Marc39?? Historically and intellectually astute people would respond to such a patently inane question that Arabs are resisting a legally created sovereign state established with international urging and recognition, from the Allies of World War I--Great Britain, France, Italy and Japan--to all 51 members of the League of Nations to the UN to both Houses of the US Congress, Winston Churchill, US presidents Woodrow Wilson, Calvin Coolidge, Harry Truman and the vast majority of US presidents and political leaders.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Last edited by Marc39; 1st August 2009 at 06:18 AM.

1st August 2009, 06:26 AM	#389
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,808	Originally Posted by Marc39 Moral of the story: Losing wars is bad. Don't ~~start~~ lose them. Fa-hiiixed. Srsly, everyone should chill. Keep it on the upper road, let's.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

1st August 2009, 06:28 AM	#390
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by The Fool What is that fate? "They" have had multiple opportunities for statehood. I've written about this. Try the search function.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

1st August 2009, 06:47 AM	#391
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Marc39 Historically and intellectually astute people would respond to such a patently inane question that Arabs are resisting a legally created sovereign state established with international urging and recognition, from the Allies of World War I--Great Britain, France, Italy and Japan--to all 51 members of the League of Nations to the UN to both Houses of the US Congress, Winston Churchill, US presidents Woodrow Wilson, Calvin Coolidge, Harry Truman and the vast majority of US presidents and political leaders. Ok...but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs. In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are? Is it unreasonable to expect that those that choose not to leave would resist? Is there anything they need worry about? Can they stay? I'm actually not asking about legal opinion as you are much more highly qualified that I am in the legal area having worked as a legal adviser to the US state department (as you claim on Politicalgroove.com). I am interested in your own view...Do you feel they should all just leave?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st August 2009, 06:50 AM	#392
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by The Fool Ok...but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs. In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are? Is it unreasonable to expect that those that choose not to leave would resist? Is there anything they need worry about? Can they stay? I'm actually not asking about legal opinion as you are much more highly qualified that I am in the legal area having worked as a legal adviser to the US state department (as you claim on Politicalgroove.com). I am interested in your own view...Do you feel they should all just leave? the Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens and pay Israelis taxes. therefore, they should stay right where they are. if the jewish settlers would also agree to become citizens of Palestine and pay Palestinian taxes, they should also, for the most part, be allowed to stay. a sizeable Jewish minority in a Palestinian-Arab state could be a good thing.

1st August 2009, 06:55 AM	#393
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by parky76 the Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens and pay Israelis taxes. therefore, they should stay right where they are. if the jewish settlers would also agree to become citizens of Palestine and pay Palestinian taxes, they should also, for the most part, be allowed to stay. a sizeable Jewish minority in a Palestinian-Arab state could be a good thing. No, I was asking about all Non-Jews west of the Jordan. Should they be allowed to stay where they are?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st August 2009, 06:58 AM	#394
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by The Fool No, I was asking about all Non-Jews west of the Jordan. Should they be allowed to stay where they are? no true democracy would ever dare to transfer a large portion of their citizens to another state. that would be ethnic cleansing. though some racist ultra-Zionists want to strip the Israeli-Arabs of their right to vote.
	Last edited by Thunder; 1st August 2009 at 06:59 AM.

1st August 2009, 07:03 AM	#395
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by The Fool Ok...but on the topic of the Nakba....much of which revolves around displacement of Arabs. The direct consequence of offensively launching a war against Israel. Wars inevitably cause population movement. 350,000 Iraqis were displaced during the battles of Fallujah. Quote: In your view should the remaining non Jews west of the Jordan be allowed to stay where they are? What territory, specifically, "west of the Jordan" Quote: Is it unreasonable to expect that those that choose not to leave would resist? Resist on what basis? Quote: Is there anything they need worry about? Since several Palestinians have been hanged by Hamas and 2,000 Palestinians have died in Fatah--Hamas conflicts, "they" probably need to worry about their safety jeopardized by their own elected governments. Quote: Can they stay? Muslim Palestinians are chasing Christians out in droves. Why can't they stay?
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

1st August 2009, 07:15 AM	#396
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Originally Posted by The Fool No, I was asking about all Non-Jews west of the Jordan. Should they be allowed to stay where they are? Should Christians be allowed to stay where they are? Because, as you are no doubt extremely well-informed on the subject, Christians are being persecuted by Muslims out of the area.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720