[Merged] Mother prays while child dies of treatable diabetes...

headscratcher4 · 28th July 2009, 11:13 AM

If only there was a hell....from the AP.

Mom who prayed for ill girl: Sin causes sickness
Jul 28th, 2009 | WAUSAU, Wis. -- The mother of an 11-year-old Wisconsin girl who died of untreated diabetes says sickness is caused by sin and can be cured by God.

Leilani Neumann took the witness stand Tuesday in her husband's trial. Dale Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of rushing his daughter to the doctor.

Leilani Neumann was convicted of the same charge in May. She faces up to 25 years in prison when she is sentenced Oct. 6.

The mother testified that she realized her daughter was seriously ill on March 22, 2008, the day before Madeline died. She says she was worried because the girl was pale and weak. The mother testified she could not remember hearing the girl speak clearly.

She says the family's response to the girl's condition was to pray for her.

zerospeaks · 28th July 2009, 12:41 PM

I guess jesus doesn't save after all.

pakeha · 28th July 2009, 01:05 PM

A dreadful story.
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpr...al-was-unfair/

Follow the link if you want to read the mum's reaction to her daughter's death
And that of a surviving sibling.

pakeha · 28th July 2009, 01:11 PM

here's a bit more:http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/art...H0101/90728076

It reads as though the woman thinks the child was ill-wished?
Hs no one explained what diabetes is to her?

And lastly, from the mother's own blog, written before the death of her daghter.
http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=theyshall-leilani

The website is amazing.

supercorgi · 28th July 2009, 02:06 PM

You know, if I believed in god and hell and all that malarky, I really, really wish god would reserve a special place in hell for people like this. Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?

Rasmus · 28th July 2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by supercorgi

You know, if I believed in god and hell and all that malarky, I really, really wish god would reserve a special place in hell for people like this. Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?

If there really *was* a loving, omniscient, omnipotent god - what more or better could you be expected to be doing than to appeal to him for help?

Why would I bother to even bring my child to a doctor? It wouldn'*t matter if i did or not, as the child would get better if and only if god wanted it to. And if god wanted it to get better, there would be nothing left for me to do and nothing i could do0 to stop the child from getting better, either. Likewise, if god wanted my child to die, not only would that be fully justified and acceptable, but taking it to a doctor wouldn't make a lick of a difference.

Why are deluded people expected to all of a sudden be able to make rational decisions?

Pure_Argent · 28th July 2009, 02:13 PM

Stuff like this makes me sick.

bokonon · 28th July 2009, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

If there really *was* a loving, omniscient, omnipotent god - what more or better could you be expected to be doing than to appeal to him for help?

Why would I bother to even bring my child to a doctor? It wouldn'*t matter if i did or not, as the child would get better if and only if god wanted it to. And if god wanted it to get better, there would be nothing left for me to do and nothing i could do0 to stop the child from getting better, either. Likewise, if god wanted my child to die, not only would that be fully justified and acceptable, but taking it to a doctor wouldn't make a lick of a difference.

Why are deluded people expected to all of a sudden be able to make rational decisions?

Yes, exactly.

The mother seems to believe that God called her daughter home while she still believed, rather than let her live on this fallen mud-ball and be tempted away from faith, thus losing her heavenly reward. It's sad.

I understand that Wisconsin law prevents parents from being prosecuted for neglect or abuse if they choose to treat their child's illness solely with prayer, so I'm not sure how solid the legal basis is for this prosecution. I think the parents were charged with "Reckless Homicide" instead of neglect to bypass this exemption.

ponderingturtle · 29th July 2009, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by bokonon

Yes, exactly.

The mother seems to believe that God called her daughter home while she still believed, rather than let her live on this fallen mud-ball and be tempted away from faith, thus losing her heavenly reward. It's sad.

I understand that Wisconsin law prevents parents from being prosecuted for neglect or abuse if they choose to treat their child's illness solely with prayer, so I'm not sure how solid the legal basis is for this prosecution. I think the parents were charged with "Reckless Homicide" instead of neglect to bypass this exemption.

That is not uncommon. It is common in the US that this is legal until the child dies when it becomes manslaughter. There are even a few states where it is entirely legal to kill your kids in this fashion.

Rasmus · 29th July 2009, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

That is not uncommon. It is common in the US that this is legal until the child dies when it becomes manslaughter. There are even a few states where it is entirely legal to kill your kids in this fashion.

Sadly, that makes sense, too. Otherwise, you would have to take custody away from each and every parents that holds a believe that is stupid enough that it might ever endanger the life of the child. That might be quite a few children ...

But you cannot really allow parents to withhold treatment to the child for so long and then turn around and whine when they end up dead because of it. If you allow people to let their beliefs to take precedent of the well-being of their children you simply have to accept that a number of them will die because of it.

Short of allowing nobody to raise their own children you have to go and draw a line somewhere, of course. And that might not be easy. But the line ought to be drawn a lot sooner than where you have to deal with the dead body of some innocent kid.

ponderingturtle · 29th July 2009, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Sadly, that makes sense, too. Otherwise, you would have to take custody away from each and every parents that holds a believe that is stupid enough that it might ever endanger the life of the child. That might be quite a few children ...

Oh no, not at all. The belief needs to be a religious belief, some other woo belief would get the children yanked right away. The law forbids neglect charges if the cause stemed from a religious reason.

It is the priviliging of religion that is the issue here, not parental rights.

Rasmus · 29th July 2009, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Oh no, not at all. The belief needs to be a religious belief, some other woo belief would get the children yanked right away. The law forbids neglect charges if the cause stemed from a religious reason.

It is the priviliging of religion that is the issue here, not parental rights.

Right.

It is a problem that the line is drawn much further out to accommodate religion than it would be for any other reason.

Still, I primarily wanted to acknowledge that drawing a definite line is not necessarily easy but that this would be no excude to draw that particular line where it is currently drawn.

Also, my main concern is that we leave people keep children who openly express views that might very well turn out bad for the kids once acted upon.

Starthinker · 29th July 2009, 02:40 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/...s_prayer_death

How many times does this have to happen?

Safe-Keeper · 29th July 2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Neumann also told the detective that "sickness is a result of sin" and that his daughter's death had not shaken his faith.

Prayer saves life: Halleluja, God is with us! Gain 1 Faith.
Prayer does not work, child dies: God did it for a reason. Faith unaffected.

I'm sure there are lots of medical doctors who would love it if it worked that way for them, too. "Malpractice? Just because I refused to heal his cancer? Don't you arrogant non-doctors realize that maybe I had a reason, a plan, when I let her die?!". Makes me glad humanity holds fellow humans to a far higher standard than God will ever, ever, ever come close to.

Pink Booties · 29th July 2009, 03:20 PM

"Power of prayer"...

When we lost our first child, stillborn, we had many people express religious sympathies.

Except for the priest my wife's family brought in that day to bless the child. My wife wanted him to put holy water on our son. The Priest would not; he said, I quote, "Baptism is only for the living."

If she had the strength, she'd have killed the guy on the spot. That was the last day my wife had any religious interests at all.

MattusMaximus · 29th July 2009, 08:02 PM

Nothing fails like prayer...

ParrotPirate · 29th July 2009, 09:32 PM

Update: the father is on trial now,similar charges. The mother called as witness still believes illness is caused by sin and only God can heal it. I really wish we had the death penalty in Wisconsin. These idiots should be fried.

godless dave · 29th July 2009, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

"Power of prayer"...

When we lost our first child, stillborn, we had many people express religious sympathies.

Except for the priest my wife's family brought in that day to bless the child. My wife wanted him to put holy water on our son. The Priest would not; he said, I quote, "Baptism is only for the living."

Was he Catholic? I'm finding it hard to reconcile this with the idea that life begins at conception and abortion is murder.

fromdownunder · 29th July 2009, 11:14 PM

So presumably, according to this couple's view, all medical doctors are Satan's handiwork?

Norm

MattusMaximus · 30th July 2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by ParrotPirate

Update: the father is on trial now,similar charges. The mother called as witness still believes illness is caused by sin and only God can heal it. I really wish we had the death penalty in Wisconsin. These idiots should be fried.

I want these people to really put their faith on the line. It's easy to just sit back and pray when it's somebody else whose life is at stake, but very different when it's your own ass.

So, what I'd like to see is for this couple to forget all the lawyers, just fire their defense team. Instead they should sit quietly in the courtroom and pray that God will intervene and represent them. If their faith is strong, they'll be acquitted because if God can play doctor, then I'm sure God can handle acting as a lawyer as well.

How much you want to bet these morons will stick with the lawyers? Hypocrites.

Rasmus · 30th July 2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

I want these people to really put their faith on the line. It's easy to just sit back and pray when it's somebody else whose life is at stake, but very different when it's your own ass.

So, what I'd like to see is for this couple to forget all the lawyers, just fire their defense team. Instead they should sit quietly in the courtroom and pray that God will intervene and represent them. If their faith is strong, they'll be acquitted because if God can play doctor, then I'm sure God can handle acting as a lawyer as well.

How much you want to bet these morons will stick with the lawyers? Hypocrites.

Here's hoping the prosecution will use that line of questioning.

linusrichard · 30th July 2009, 11:10 AM

"What do you mean? I sent you three boats!"

Raze · 30th July 2009, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by supercorgi

[...] Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?

If you read the Book of Job you will see that God really gets off on gambling to see if his "servants" will turn on him if inflicted with pain. So maybe God and Satan had another bet. Maybe it was something like this:

God says: "Alright Satan, I bet that if I take this praying woman's daughter despite the fact that she remained in my service, other Christians will STILL believe."

Satan thinks to himself, This is win win! Not only will the child die, but clearly, since God will be proven false to other Christians by not saving the child, they will also turn away...

Satan says: "Alright God, you're on. Bring it!"

Some time passes...

Then, the bet carries out, and the child dies. But... to Satan's horror, the Christians continue to believe without batting an eye!!!

God smiles smugly.

Satan says: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuu- "

ParrotPirate · 30th July 2009, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Here's hoping the prosecution will use that line of questioning.

That would be cool,but I don't know if they'll think of it.

zerospeaks · 31st July 2009, 12:23 AM

Ok... food for thought guys!

Shoot my argument down!

*Argument:
This type of religious faith should be outlawed.

Takers?

Rasmus · 31st July 2009, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by zerospeaks

Ok... food for thought guys!

Shoot my argument down!

*Argument:
This type of religious faith should be outlawed.

Takers?

Well, that's not an argument, of course. There's no reason or explanantion given as to why you would think so.

But, anyway (since it's quite obvious why you might):

Not a good idea. Thought crimes are not a good idea, much less so if they want to restrict the religious freedoms of those subject to the law. People can believe whatever the heck they want to, after all.

But: Take their children away from them before these people get a chance to murder them with their stupidity.

zerospeaks · 31st July 2009, 03:56 AM

So should I have said.

Outlaw parenting with such religious beliefs?

Rasmus · 31st July 2009, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by zerospeaks

So should I have said.

Outlaw parenting with such religious beliefs?

Yes, I fully agree with that.

Holding certain beliefs make you dangerous to children you are responsible for, and that they are religious should not be an excuse.

Darth Rotor · 31st July 2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

Stuff like this makes me sick.

I'll pray for you.

Darth Rotor · 31st July 2009, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Yes, I fully agree with that.

Holding certain beliefs make you dangerous to children you are responsible for, and that they are religious should not be an excuse

OK, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who might have a car accident ought to have kids either, since kids die from car accidents.

Makes about as much sense as what you put up there.

DR

zerospeaks · 31st July 2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

OK, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who might have a car accident ought to have kids either, since kids die from car accidents.

Ok, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who practices car wrecks as part of their beliefs ought to have kids.

There, fixed that for you. Your analogy was flawed. Chance accident and purposeful endangerment are two completely different things.

De_Bunk · 1st August 2009, 11:11 PM

Yep...

Daughter dying...She don't need medical help...All you gotta do is pray...

It always works...

Thankyou baby Jeebus...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm

DB

dafydd · 2nd August 2009, 04:19 AM

I suppose that some of you know more about this nutter's case than I do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm

aggle-rithm · 2nd August 2009, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

I suppose that some of you know more about this nutter's case than I do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm

This guy had a very egocentric attitude. God would listen to HIS prayers, even though he clearly doesn't listen to most prayers.

After all, faith healing has been around for centuries, and people died young. Modern medicine has been around for quite a bit less time, and...well, you know.

28th July 2009, 11:13 AM	#1
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,424	Mother prays while child dies of treatable diabetes... If only there was a hell....from the AP. Mom who prayed for ill girl: Sin causes sickness Jul 28th, 2009 \| WAUSAU, Wis. -- The mother of an 11-year-old Wisconsin girl who died of untreated diabetes says sickness is caused by sin and can be cured by God. Leilani Neumann took the witness stand Tuesday in her husband's trial. Dale Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of rushing his daughter to the doctor. Leilani Neumann was convicted of the same charge in May. She faces up to 25 years in prison when she is sentenced Oct. 6. The mother testified that she realized her daughter was seriously ill on March 22, 2008, the day before Madeline died. She says she was worried because the girl was pale and weak. The mother testified she could not remember hearing the girl speak clearly. She says the family's response to the girl's condition was to pray for her.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

28th July 2009, 01:05 PM	#3
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	A dreadful story. http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpr...al-was-unfair/ Follow the link if you want to read the mum's reaction to her daughter's death And that of a surviving sibling.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099

28th July 2009, 01:11 PM	#4
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	here's a bit more:http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/art...H0101/90728076 It reads as though the woman thinks the child was ill-wished? Hs no one explained what diabetes is to her? And lastly, from the mother's own blog, written before the death of her daghter. http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=theyshall-leilani The website is amazing.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	Last edited by pakeha; 28th July 2009 at 01:15 PM.

28th July 2009, 02:06 PM	#5
supercorgi Dog Everlasting Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: State of Confusion, Massachusetts, USA Posts: 2,485	You know, if I believed in god and hell and all that malarky, I really, really wish god would reserve a special place in hell for people like this. Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?
	__________________

28th July 2009, 02:12 PM	#6
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by supercorgi You know, if I believed in god and hell and all that malarky, I really, really wish god would reserve a special place in hell for people like this. Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them? If there really was a loving, omniscient, omnipotent god - what more or better could you be expected to be doing than to appeal to him for help? Why would I bother to even bring my child to a doctor? It wouldn'*t matter if i did or not, as the child would get better if and only if god wanted it to. And if god wanted it to get better, there would be nothing left for me to do and nothing i could do0 to stop the child from getting better, either. Likewise, if god wanted my child to die, not only would that be fully justified and acceptable, but taking it to a doctor wouldn't make a lick of a difference. Why are deluded people expected to all of a sudden be able to make rational decisions?
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th July 2009, 12:41 PM	#2
zerospeaks Metaphysical Naturalist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 307	I guess jesus doesn't save after all.

28th July 2009, 02:13 PM	#7
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,820	Stuff like this makes me sick.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

28th July 2009, 10:09 PM	#8
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224	Originally Posted by Rasmus If there really was a loving, omniscient, omnipotent god - what more or better could you be expected to be doing than to appeal to him for help? Why would I bother to even bring my child to a doctor? It wouldn'*t matter if i did or not, as the child would get better if and only if god wanted it to. And if god wanted it to get better, there would be nothing left for me to do and nothing i could do0 to stop the child from getting better, either. Likewise, if god wanted my child to die, not only would that be fully justified and acceptable, but taking it to a doctor wouldn't make a lick of a difference. Why are deluded people expected to all of a sudden be able to make rational decisions? Yes, exactly. The mother seems to believe that God called her daughter home while she still believed, rather than let her live on this fallen mud-ball and be tempted away from faith, thus losing her heavenly reward. It's sad. I understand that Wisconsin law prevents parents from being prosecuted for neglect or abuse if they choose to treat their child's illness solely with prayer, so I'm not sure how solid the legal basis is for this prosecution. I think the parents were charged with "Reckless Homicide" instead of neglect to bypass this exemption.
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224

29th July 2009, 05:25 AM	#9
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,770	Originally Posted by bokonon Yes, exactly. The mother seems to believe that God called her daughter home while she still believed, rather than let her live on this fallen mud-ball and be tempted away from faith, thus losing her heavenly reward. It's sad. I understand that Wisconsin law prevents parents from being prosecuted for neglect or abuse if they choose to treat their child's illness solely with prayer, so I'm not sure how solid the legal basis is for this prosecution. I think the parents were charged with "Reckless Homicide" instead of neglect to bypass this exemption. That is not uncommon. It is common in the US that this is legal until the child dies when it becomes manslaughter. There are even a few states where it is entirely legal to kill your kids in this fashion.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

29th July 2009, 05:32 AM	#10
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle That is not uncommon. It is common in the US that this is legal until the child dies when it becomes manslaughter. There are even a few states where it is entirely legal to kill your kids in this fashion. Sadly, that makes sense, too. Otherwise, you would have to take custody away from each and every parents that holds a believe that is stupid enough that it might ever endanger the life of the child. That might be quite a few children ... But you cannot really allow parents to withhold treatment to the child for so long and then turn around and whine when they end up dead because of it. If you allow people to let their beliefs to take precedent of the well-being of their children you simply have to accept that a number of them will die because of it. Short of allowing nobody to raise their own children you have to go and draw a line somewhere, of course. And that might not be easy. But the line ought to be drawn a lot sooner than where you have to deal with the dead body of some innocent kid.
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

29th July 2009, 06:44 AM	#11
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,770	Originally Posted by Rasmus Sadly, that makes sense, too. Otherwise, you would have to take custody away from each and every parents that holds a believe that is stupid enough that it might ever endanger the life of the child. That might be quite a few children ... Oh no, not at all. The belief needs to be a religious belief, some other woo belief would get the children yanked right away. The law forbids neglect charges if the cause stemed from a religious reason. It is the priviliging of religion that is the issue here, not parental rights.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

29th July 2009, 07:06 AM	#12
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Oh no, not at all. The belief needs to be a religious belief, some other woo belief would get the children yanked right away. The law forbids neglect charges if the cause stemed from a religious reason. It is the priviliging of religion that is the issue here, not parental rights. Right. It is a problem that the line is drawn much further out to accommodate religion than it would be for any other reason. Still, I primarily wanted to acknowledge that drawing a definite line is not necessarily easy but that this would be no excude to draw that particular line where it is currently drawn. Also, my main concern is that we leave people keep children who openly express views that might very well turn out bad for the kids once acted upon.
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

29th July 2009, 02:40 PM	#13
Starthinker Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,834	The Power of Prayer Kills Another Child http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/...s_prayer_death How many times does this have to happen?
	__________________ Naked People Running on Treadmills \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ • Does the blue line only run on Saturday? He who doubts victory has already lost the battle.

29th July 2009, 03:10 PM	#14
Safe-Keeper Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 4,374	Quote: Neumann also told the detective that "sickness is a result of sin" and that his daughter's death had not shaken his faith. Prayer saves life: Halleluja, God is with us! Gain 1 Faith. Prayer does not work, child dies: God did it for a reason. Faith unaffected. I'm sure there are lots of medical doctors who would love it if it worked that way for them, too. "Malpractice? Just because I refused to heal his cancer? Don't you arrogant non-doctors realize that maybe I had a reason, a plan, when I let her die?!". Makes me glad humanity holds fellow humans to a far higher standard than God will ever, ever, ever come close to.
	__________________ "Then my war dogs joined the fray. I have to say I'm a bit afraid of them. One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage." --the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered

29th July 2009, 03:20 PM	#15
Pink Booties Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: in your guard, up on points, and stalling. Posts: 3,537	"Power of prayer"... When we lost our first child, stillborn, we had many people express religious sympathies. Except for the priest my wife's family brought in that day to bless the child. My wife wanted him to put holy water on our son. The Priest would not; he said, I quote, "Baptism is only for the living." If she had the strength, she'd have killed the guy on the spot. That was the last day my wife had any religious interests at all.

29th July 2009, 08:02 PM	#16
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 7,123	Nothing fails like prayer...
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher Critical Thinking Education Group (CTEG) Chicago's First Skepticamp: Skepchicamp - March 6, 2010 Secular & Skeptic Help for Haiti

29th July 2009, 09:32 PM	#17
ParrotPirate Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Here,now Posts: 403	Update: the father is on trial now,similar charges. The mother called as witness still believes illness is caused by sin and only God can heal it. I really wish we had the death penalty in Wisconsin. These idiots should be fried.

29th July 2009, 10:06 PM	#18
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 3,728	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 "Power of prayer"... When we lost our first child, stillborn, we had many people express religious sympathies. Except for the priest my wife's family brought in that day to bless the child. My wife wanted him to put holy water on our son. The Priest would not; he said, I quote, "Baptism is only for the living." Was he Catholic? I'm finding it hard to reconcile this with the idea that life begins at conception and abortion is murder.
	__________________ Genesis 9:3

29th July 2009, 11:14 PM	#19
fromdownunder Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,527	So presumably, according to this couple's view, all medical doctors are Satan's handiwork? Norm

30th July 2009, 11:00 AM	#20
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by ParrotPirate Update: the father is on trial now,similar charges. The mother called as witness still believes illness is caused by sin and only God can heal it. I really wish we had the death penalty in Wisconsin. These idiots should be fried. I want these people to really put their faith on the line. It's easy to just sit back and pray when it's somebody else whose life is at stake, but very different when it's your own ass. So, what I'd like to see is for this couple to forget all the lawyers, just fire their defense team. Instead they should sit quietly in the courtroom and pray that God will intervene and represent them. If their faith is strong, they'll be acquitted because if God can play doctor, then I'm sure God can handle acting as a lawyer as well. How much you want to bet these morons will stick with the lawyers? Hypocrites.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher Critical Thinking Education Group (CTEG) Chicago's First Skepticamp: Skepchicamp - March 6, 2010 Secular & Skeptic Help for Haiti

30th July 2009, 11:04 AM	#21
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus I want these people to really put their faith on the line. It's easy to just sit back and pray when it's somebody else whose life is at stake, but very different when it's your own ass. So, what I'd like to see is for this couple to forget all the lawyers, just fire their defense team. Instead they should sit quietly in the courtroom and pray that God will intervene and represent them. If their faith is strong, they'll be acquitted because if God can play doctor, then I'm sure God can handle acting as a lawyer as well. How much you want to bet these morons will stick with the lawyers? Hypocrites. Here's hoping the prosecution will use that line of questioning.
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

30th July 2009, 11:10 AM	#22
linusrichard Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lansing, Mich. Posts: 2,355	"What do you mean? I sent you three boats!"

30th July 2009, 08:51 PM	#23
Raze Thinker Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 133	Originally Posted by supercorgi [...] Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them? If you read the Book of Job you will see that God really gets off on gambling to see if his "servants" will turn on him if inflicted with pain. So maybe God and Satan had another bet. Maybe it was something like this: God says: "Alright Satan, I bet that if I take this praying woman's daughter despite the fact that she remained in my service, other Christians will STILL believe." Satan thinks to himself, This is win win! Not only will the child die, but clearly, since God will be proven false to other Christians by not saving the child, they will also turn away... Satan says: "Alright God, you're on. Bring it!" Some time passes... Then, the bet carries out, and the child dies. But... to Satan's horror, the Christians continue to believe without batting an eye!!! God smiles smugly. Satan says: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuu- "
Raze Thinker Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 133

30th July 2009, 09:24 PM	#24
ParrotPirate Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Here,now Posts: 403	Originally Posted by Rasmus Here's hoping the prosecution will use that line of questioning. That would be cool,but I don't know if they'll think of it.

31st July 2009, 12:23 AM	#25
zerospeaks Metaphysical Naturalist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 307	Ok... food for thought guys! Shoot my argument down! *Argument: This type of religious faith should be outlawed. Takers?

31st July 2009, 03:48 AM	#26
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by zerospeaks Ok... food for thought guys! Shoot my argument down! *Argument: This type of religious faith should be outlawed. Takers? Well, that's not an argument, of course. There's no reason or explanantion given as to why you would think so. But, anyway (since it's quite obvious why you might): Not a good idea. Thought crimes are not a good idea, much less so if they want to restrict the religious freedoms of those subject to the law. People can believe whatever the heck they want to, after all. But: Take their children away from them before these people get a chance to murder them with their stupidity.
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

31st July 2009, 03:56 AM	#27
zerospeaks Metaphysical Naturalist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 307	So should I have said. Outlaw parenting with such religious beliefs?

31st July 2009, 04:59 AM	#28
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by zerospeaks So should I have said. Outlaw parenting with such religious beliefs? Yes, I fully agree with that. Holding certain beliefs make you dangerous to children you are responsible for, and that they are religious should not be an excuse.
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

31st July 2009, 03:36 PM	#29
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,812	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent Stuff like this makes me sick. I'll pray for you.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

31st July 2009, 03:39 PM	#30
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,812	Originally Posted by Rasmus Yes, I fully agree with that. Holding certain beliefs make you dangerous to children you are responsible for, and that they are religious should not be an excuse OK, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who might have a car accident ought to have kids either, since kids die from car accidents. Makes about as much sense as what you put up there. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

31st July 2009, 08:09 PM	#31
zerospeaks Metaphysical Naturalist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 307	Quote: OK, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who might have a car accident ought to have kids either, since kids die from car accidents. Ok, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who practices car wrecks as part of their beliefs ought to have kids. There, fixed that for you. Your analogy was flawed. Chance accident and purposeful endangerment are two completely different things.

1st August 2009, 11:11 PM	#32
De_Bunk Scourge of the Believer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 4,568	Father prays instead of medical help for his daughter... Yep... Daughter dying...She don't need medical help...All you gotta do is pray... It always works... Thankyou baby Jeebus... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm DB
	__________________ "Do not stand at my grave and weep".... 1. I'm dead... Last edited by De_Bunk; 1st August 2009 at 11:13 PM.

2nd August 2009, 04:19 AM	#33
dafydd Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,194	Praying man let his daughter die I suppose that some of you know more about this nutter's case than I do. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm
dafydd Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,194

2nd August 2009, 05:05 AM	#34
aggle-rithm Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 6,745	Originally Posted by dafydd I suppose that some of you know more about this nutter's case than I do. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm This guy had a very egocentric attitude. God would listen to HIS prayers, even though he clearly doesn't listen to most prayers. After all, faith healing has been around for centuries, and people died young. Modern medicine has been around for quite a bit less time, and...well, you know.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.