[Moderated] VFF Preliminary Kidney Detection Test

VisionFromFeeling · 9th August 2009, 06:28 PM

Attention Skeptics Nationwide,

I am a paranormal claimant investigating my claim of medical perceptions. When I look at people I perceive images in my mind that depict the inside of their bodies, see more on www.visionfromfeeling.com. I have submitted a claim and suggested test protocol to the Independent Investigations Group IIG West and they are arranging a test for me to take place in Hollywood California hopefully by the end of the year. The test will involve detecting which of persons is missing a kidney and I will only get to see the persons from behind, neck down. The IIG have suggested that I have a preliminary test before having the official test with them so that I am better prepared for the outcome of their test. That is why I am asking all of you if any of you would be willing to set up a preliminary test of my claim with me.

All that is required is that you find one or several persons who have had a kidney removed. If you know such a person, who would be able to sit for the test, and can then find nine other persons who have both kidneys for the test. I will travel to take the test near you and I will pay for the location and arrange the screens for the test. If you know a person who has had a kidney removed, or are willing to make the effort to finding such persons for the test, let's discuss it here. Being the claimant I am unable to arrange for the persons myself. Also, let's discuss the test protocol for the kidney detection test on this thread. All other topics are referred to the General VFF Thread. Thank you,
Paranormal Claimant
VisionFromFeeling

The preliminary test protocol so far:
One person who has had a kidney removed is sitting among nine other persons who have both kidneys. Their order of sequence is determined randomly. The back rest of their chairs is facing to the left so that their backs can be seen. A fabric curtain is attached from the ceiling and comes down to cover head and necks of the persons. A number is placed on the floor by each of the chairs with numbers from 1 to 10 from left to right. The persons are wearing their everyday clothes and their backs do not need to be bare. Once the ten persons are settled I will take a seat behind their row a few feet behind them. I have four hours to look at them. At any time during this time, I may choose to submit a sheet where I can select up to five numbers. Once I submit that sheet I leave the room. The persons whose numbers are on the sheet leave the row of ten. Their empty chairs are removed and the row is brought together keeping the same order of sequence. I then return to the room and continue looking at the remaining persons. Before the time is up I submit my answer on an answer sheet with the number of the person I think is the one who has had a kidney removed or I state that I am unable to detect which of the persons is missing a kidney. I submit the answer sheet to one of the Skeptics and the accuracy is then determined. The person should bring medical documentation that verifies that they have had a kidney removed, otherwise we can check for the scar at the back.

Let's discuss the protocol for the preliminary test, and most of all I hope to hear from some of you who might know someone who has had a kidney removed so that I can arrange a preliminary test with you.

shandyjan · 9th August 2009, 06:33 PM

I would have thought the volunteers would come from unknown sources and have nothing to do with one of the places (JREF) that youre making the claims?

Empress · 9th August 2009, 06:43 PM

Anyone up for a pool on how long this thread takes to get "moderated" status?

Giggywig · 9th August 2009, 06:51 PM

Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves?

SezMe · 9th August 2009, 07:05 PM

Yes, four hours is quite long to sit. For people who have had a kidney removed, would sitting for four hours lead to discomfort in a way not applicable to those who have not had the operation?

ETA: Why do you need the preliminary step of removing five "sitters"?

JPL · 9th August 2009, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling

Attention Skeptics Nationwide,

The person should bring medical documentation that verifies that they have had a kidney removed, otherwise we can check for the scar at the back.

.

Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front...

VisionFromFeeling · 9th August 2009, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by shandyjan

I would have thought the volunteers would come from unknown sources and have nothing to do with one of the places (JREF) that youre making the claims?

For the preliminary test it should be ok if Skeptics who are not affiliated to the JREF know the volunteers and arrange for them to the test.

Originally Posted by Giggywig

Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves?

Originally Posted by SezMe

Yes, four hours is quite long to sit. For people who have had a kidney removed, would sitting for four hours lead to discomfort in a way not applicable to those who have not had the operation?

ETA: Why do you need the preliminary step of removing five "sitters"?

I was hoping for second opinions on the four hours and I agree. How do we all feel about two hours with five volunteers, and then another two hours with the other five? That would also eliminate the use of the sheet that removes up to five volunteers from the ten. The purpose of that sheet was for me to select out the ones that I am most certain have both kidneys, so to narrow down on the five that I think are most likely to be missing a kidney. Although awkward from a test perspective, it would have been more convenient for me because I keep going back and forth looking at the volunteers. I would prefer to see all ten at the same time, but the volunteers need to also be taken into account.

I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break.

Also you are right, we need to take into account that sitting for four hours might reveal symptoms of their kidney situation.

VisionFromFeeling · 9th August 2009, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by JPL

Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front...

Thank you for that, we now know that checking for the scar is more involved than I had first thought.

Would your wife be willing to take part in the preliminary test with me? Once we have a person who has had a kidney removed, and if you are able to find nine other women who have both kidneys and who can also take part in the test, we can design the preliminary test and make arrangements. Then I would refer you to your local Skeptical society so that we can involve more Skeptics in the test.

Farencue · 9th August 2009, 09:38 PM

An old dog trying an old trick here

JPL pointed out that his wife's kidney was removed from the front and NOT the back which immediately makes the whole location of the scar business more "involved" for Visionfromfeeling.
Here is the first step in nothing happening until it happens eventually.

Just for your information Anita, ALL kidney removal is done from the front/side so there really is nothing complicated about where the location of the scar is. You were wrong in your assumptions.

Second step to nothing happening until it happens eventually, is how JPL was not so subtly requested to find nine other women who do not have a missing kidney so that Anita can then discuss the protocol which is truly putting the cart before the horse. JPL will also be referred to the local skeptics society by Anita, gee JPL I hope you dont live in a small village of 500 people who mind you asking the big questions!

Stay tuned for thousands upon thousands of words as the members here come up with a protocol and possibly nine women with no missing kidneys for Anita.

Do not change posters' names to insult them.

Posted By:LibraryLady

SezMe · 9th August 2009, 10:35 PM

Who's Anita?

SezMe · 9th August 2009, 10:37 PM

VFF you are asking for 24 minutes to look at each person. 24? Is your vision like the old Polaroid cameras such that the picture of the person's innards slowly develops with time?

lionking · 9th August 2009, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Who's Anita?

Anita=VFF

SezMe · 9th August 2009, 11:10 PM

I deduced that but I was trying to make a point with Farencue that he/she should use nics rather than Real Life names. This is a pet peeve of mine that you see often in the 911 subforum and bigfoot forum. Sometimes it's obvious who the reference is (as in this case) but often it is not. Maybe I should have been more direct.

Can you help me down off this soapbox now?

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling

Attention Skeptics Nationwide,

I am a paranormal claimant investigating my claim of medical perceptions. When I look at people I perceive images in my mind that depict the inside of their bodies, see more on www.visionfromfeeling.com. I have submitted a claim and suggested test protocol to the Independent Investigations Group IIG West and they are arranging a test for me to take place in Hollywood California hopefully by the end of the year. The test will involve detecting which of persons is missing a kidney and I will only get to see the persons from behind, neck down. The IIG have suggested that I have a preliminary test before having the official test with them so that I am better prepared for the outcome of their test. That is why I am asking all of you if any of you would be willing to set up a preliminary test of my claim with me.

All that is required is that you find one or several persons who have had a kidney removed. If you know such a person, who would be able to sit for the test, and can then find nine other persons who have both kidneys for the test. I will travel to take the test near you and I will pay for the location and arrange the screens for the test. If you know a person who has had a kidney removed, or are willing to make the effort to finding such persons for the test, let's discuss it here. Being the claimant I am unable to arrange for the persons myself. Also, let's discuss the test protocol for the kidney detection test on this thread. All other topics are referred to the General VFF Thread. Thank you,
Paranormal Claimant
VisionFromFeeling

The preliminary test protocol so far:
One person who has had a kidney removed is sitting among nine other persons who have both kidneys. Their order of sequence is determined randomly. The back rest of their chairs is facing to the left so that their backs can be seen. A fabric curtain is attached from the ceiling and comes down to cover head and necks of the persons. A number is placed on the floor by each of the chairs with numbers from 1 to 10 from left to right. The persons are wearing their everyday clothes and their backs do not need to be bare. Once the ten persons are settled I will take a seat behind their row a few feet behind them. I have four hours to look at them. At any time during this time, I may choose to submit a sheet where I can select up to five numbers. Once I submit that sheet I leave the room. The persons whose numbers are on the sheet leave the row of ten. Their empty chairs are removed and the row is brought together keeping the same order of sequence. I then return to the room and continue looking at the remaining persons. Before the time is up I submit my answer on an answer sheet with the number of the person I think is the one who has had a kidney removed or I state that I am unable to detect which of the persons is missing a kidney. I submit the answer sheet to one of the Skeptics and the accuracy is then determined. The person should bring medical documentation that verifies that they have had a kidney removed, otherwise we can check for the scar at the back.

Let's discuss the protocol for the preliminary test, and most of all I hope to hear from some of you who might know someone who has had a kidney removed so that I can arrange a preliminary test with you.

There are 303,824,640 people in the US.

According to the US Congressional Kidney Caucus, one person in 750 is born with a single kidney.

The above figures indicate that there are approximately 405 000 people in the US with one kidney and no scar.

It's reasonable to assume that not all of these people will be aware of their condition.

There is a reasonably high probability that one of these people will end up in your pool of examinees.

How do you intend to screen these people out of the test?

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by JPL

Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front...

Oh dear. Add people with surgically removed kidneys and no back scar to the 405 000 I mentioned in my previous post.

According to your research, VFF, what proportion of people who have had a kidney removed have a back scar?

How was this research conducted?

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling

<snip>

I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break.

Also you are right, we need to take into account that sitting for four hours might reveal symptoms of their kidney situation.

Might ????eleven?

jimtron · 9th August 2009, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

There are 303,824,640 people in the US.

According to the US Congressional Kidney Caucus, one person in 750 is born with a single kidney.

The above figures indicate that there are approximately 405 000 people in the US with one kidney and no scar.

It's reasonable to assume that not all of these people will be aware of their condition.

There is a reasonably high probability that one of these people will end up in your pool of examinees.

How do you intend to screen these people out of the test?

Hey, good call...

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by JPL

Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front...

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling

Thank you for that, we now know that checking for the scar is more involved than I had first thought.

<snip>

You're claiming to be ready for a test and you don't even know how to detect a missing kidney using the methods available to people with normal vision.

Can you see a problem with this?

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:32 PM

As a general comment, VFF, you have no medical background, as further evidenced by the above approach to "kidney detection" and yet you appear determined to continue in your attempts to diagnose people.

It won't end well.

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:40 PM

VisionFromFeeling.com

Quote:

We have a solution for the problem of how do we confirm that a person does indeed have both kidneys. This solution came unintentionally from JREF Forum member Akhenaten who said that it should be as simple as checking for the scar after the test. Those that have had a kidney removed would have a scar, and those that have not had a kidney removed would not have that scar. As for people who were born without a kidney, they would be missing a kidney but not have a scar, and we still need to consider this possible complication. Those that have a scar indicating that a kidney would have been removed should also provide documentation to verify that they have had a kidney removed and that the scar could not be due to other reasons.

You should be more careful. You seem to rely on some very dodgy sources.

Akhenaten · 9th August 2009, 11:42 PM

pwned

LONGTABBER PE · 10th August 2009, 12:21 AM

oh the pain

Ashles · 10th August 2009, 01:37 AM

So a claim that started off with vision at a molecular level has now changed to vision at a large organ level... which is going to be nice and difficult to set up, control and arrange.

Just think, if only that crushed pill test hadn't failed so badly, we might be within a decade of some form of real test.

Pixel42 · 10th August 2009, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Giggywig

Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves?

The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant. If ten minutes per volunteer isn't enough for VfF to "see" something as obvious as their number of kidneys then most of the claims she has made about her previous successes with her supposed ability can be instantly dismissed, as from her own accounts her observations were usually made in a far shorter time than that.

This is the suggested protocol I posted on the other thread. Obviously it has some of the same problems as VfF's (the possibility that one of the other volunteers may have only one kidney and not realise it, for example) but it's much more practical. I'm curious to know why VfF rejected it.

1. The volunteers all wear football jerseys or similiar with a different number on the back. The volunteers are monitored and filmed from the moment they put them on until the end of the test to ensure they have no opportunity to swap shirts.

2. VfF enters a screened off section of the room and sits facing a curtain, on the other side of which is a stool.

3. The first volunteer sits on the stool with their back to the curtain. When he/she is settled, the curtain is drawn back. VfF should not be able to see anything except the stool and its occupant from where she is sitting. The volunteer sits as still as he/she can manage whilst VfF examines him/her. VfF indicates when she has seen enough and the curtain is drawn. The volunteer then returns to the waiting area and the next volunteer takes their place.

4. Repeat for each volunteer. VfF is free to make whatever notes she wishes about the volunteers.

5. When all volunteers have been examined VfF decides which one she thinks has only one kidney and writes the appropriate number on a card which she seals inside an envelope. She then joins the volunteers, adjudicator and observers and places the envelope on a table in clear view.

6. The adjudicator calls for the volunteer with only one kidney to step forward. He/she produces the previously agreed documentary evidence which is examined by VfF and the adjudicator. When both are satisfied the volunteer turns around to show the number on his/her back. The adjudicator then opens VfF's envelope to see if the number she has written is the same.

Repeat as many times as necessary to beat the previously agreed odds of chance success.

Rolfe · 10th August 2009, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant.

Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game. And I personally know two people who have had a kidney removed (one is my own mother, who had a diseased kidney removed many years ago, and the other is a friend who donated a kidney to her sick husband). Both of these have no symptoms or inconvenience from the operation, and could not be guessed to be missing a kidney from their behaviour.

However, it seems to me the checking for scars is hopeless. People can have abdominal scars for all sorts of reasons, and different surgeons favour different approaches. I'm surprised that so many people are born with one kidney, but it's certainly something to think about. Doing CT scans of the volunteers seems completely impractical - no medical service would subject people to ionising radiation for something so trivial. Would production of medical records do it? Easy enough to show that someone has had a kidney removed from their records, if there's no impersonation. Might be harder to show that it had never happened I suppose....

These things are never quite as simple as they first appear.

Rolfe.

Pixel42 · 10th August 2009, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game.

I was assuming the volunteers would have to sit still to allow VfF to do her stuff, and also to avoid potentially give-away body language. Even with some movement allowed, I suspect it would still be difficult to get enough volunteers. I know I wouldn't consider it worth my time and inconvenience

Sean84 · 10th August 2009, 03:16 AM

I just want to scream "malarkey, malarkey!"

Malarkey is a substitute for a rule violation.

Farencue · 10th August 2009, 03:20 AM

Why would anyone want to take a "missing kidney" test when they have already failed at this? I am referring specifically to the fact that VfF did not mention that Dr Carlson had a missing kidney when she had a "reading" with him at her local skeptic meeting.

Does "I knew it but I didnt mention it" REALLY mean you didnt fail?
Would that excuse cut it with any JREFers here?

Ocelot · 10th August 2009, 03:24 AM

Four hours is a long time.

How about you see the subjects one at a time.

skeen · 10th August 2009, 03:25 AM

The wheels on the bus!

Giggywig · 10th August 2009, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling

I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break.

I would recommend you have scheduled breaks every set period of time (say 20-30 minutes) when all volunteers would stand up and leave the room for 5 minutes, stretch their legs and if needed use the bathroom. That way you are not distracted by who needs to pee every 40 minutes.

Rolfe · 10th August 2009, 05:37 AM

Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you?

Rolfe.

LissaLysikan · 10th August 2009, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you?

Rolfe.

Since needing to pee often is a symptom of possible kidney problems, I agree with Rolfe - why would you? would be like stacking the deck. VFF might see a malfunctioning kidney as not there. The control group need to have functioning kidneys for it to be a fair test of her ability.

Giggywig · 10th August 2009, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you?

Rolfe.

From what I recall from other efforts by VFF, lack of volunteers was an issue. With a requirement to sit for 4 hours, volunteers might not be easy to come by. I'm just thinking making it an easier time for everybody involved will give the test itself greater chance of success (not the claimant mind you, but the test itself).

Gmonster2 · 10th August 2009, 05:57 AM

This is from the FACT readings

“For the first time ever I forced a time limit on myself to try to keep it within 15 minutes. If I recall it took me 18 minutes. I think the time limit might affect my results such that I don't have time to find all the information that I can find but I know that a test will probably be restricted to only a few ailments, giving me plenty of time.

The way I will be looking to detect that a kidney is missing will be easier since it already involves a specific area of the body and will be the same general area for all persons so I do not have to search across the body. Also I already know the feeling that corresponds to the absence of the feeling of a kidney. But the most important technique is that I will be able to compare with the opposite side to feel if the left and right side at where the kidneys should be feel vastly different.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are taken straight from your own website why 4hrs for the readings? You say yourself you know where to look and its only one thing to look for? And why do u want to narrow down from 10 to 5 then check again , why are you so full of contradictions? You’ve been practicing as well does it take 24 mins to locate your own kidneys? You did a whole body reading in 15-18 mins why can't you find a kidney in 10 mins????????????????????

You talk the talk but can’t walk the walk..

skeen · 10th August 2009, 06:28 AM

Yep, bog standard Anita. Making a protocol which will never work. Do you guys think she's going to let up on the 4 hour requirement? I guarantee you she won't.

Then, when none of this happens, she'll blame it on the lack of volunteers.

How many times have we been here before?

MRC_Hans · 10th August 2009, 07:24 AM

Might I suggest that the requirement for hours of sitting could be meant to ensure that it will not be possible to recruit the necessary number of volunteers, and hence impossible to conduct the test? This would enable VFF to say: "I suggested a scientific protocol, but they did not want to go throught with it."

Hans

ETA: Oh, Skeen beat me to it, heheh.

Rolfe · 10th August 2009, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by LissaLysikan

Since needing to pee often is a symptom of possible kidney problems, I agree with Rolfe - why would you? would be like stacking the deck. VFF might see a malfunctioning kidney as not there. The control group need to have functioning kidneys for it to be a fair test of her ability.

I think everyone needs to remember that having had a kidney removed does not mean that the person has any problem with the remaining kidney. Many people have donated a kidney to a sick relative, and others (such as my mother) have had a single unhealthy kidney removed, leaving them with a healthy kidney.

Everyone can manage perfectly normally on one kidney, and most people who physically have only one kidney are in that category. You literally Would. Not. Be. Able. To. Tell.

Do not include anyone with any actual disease of the urinogenital system (to include bladder or prostate problems) to ensure no confounding factors. This would not be that hard. Just find a healthy live kidney donor, and some other healthy people.

Your main problem is to prove that the people are as they say they are. After all, Randi could have persuaded someone with only one kidney to join the group and claim they had two, and/or someone with two kidneys to pretend they had only one. He could even ave arranged to falsify their medical records to weasel out on paying.
[/paranoid MDC claimant mode]

You have to think of everything.

Rolfe.

Lisa Simpson · 10th August 2009, 07:53 AM

1 in 400 people have horseshoe kidney (including my brother-in-law). Wouldn't that also potentially throw off things?

Ocelot · 10th August 2009, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

You have to think of everything.

Rolfe.

Robots. Suspend a huge magnet over the testing arena to check for robots.

9th August 2009, 06:28 PM	#1
VisionFromFeeling Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina, United States Posts: 1,363	VFF Preliminary Kidney Detection Test Attention Skeptics Nationwide, I am a paranormal claimant investigating my claim of medical perceptions. When I look at people I perceive images in my mind that depict the inside of their bodies, see more on www.visionfromfeeling.com. I have submitted a claim and suggested test protocol to the Independent Investigations Group IIG West and they are arranging a test for me to take place in Hollywood California hopefully by the end of the year. The test will involve detecting which of persons is missing a kidney and I will only get to see the persons from behind, neck down. The IIG have suggested that I have a preliminary test before having the official test with them so that I am better prepared for the outcome of their test. That is why I am asking all of you if any of you would be willing to set up a preliminary test of my claim with me. All that is required is that you find one or several persons who have had a kidney removed. If you know such a person, who would be able to sit for the test, and can then find nine other persons who have both kidneys for the test. I will travel to take the test near you and I will pay for the location and arrange the screens for the test. If you know a person who has had a kidney removed, or are willing to make the effort to finding such persons for the test, let's discuss it here. Being the claimant I am unable to arrange for the persons myself. Also, let's discuss the test protocol for the kidney detection test on this thread. All other topics are referred to the General VFF Thread. Thank you, Paranormal Claimant VisionFromFeeling The preliminary test protocol so far: One person who has had a kidney removed is sitting among nine other persons who have both kidneys. Their order of sequence is determined randomly. The back rest of their chairs is facing to the left so that their backs can be seen. A fabric curtain is attached from the ceiling and comes down to cover head and necks of the persons. A number is placed on the floor by each of the chairs with numbers from 1 to 10 from left to right. The persons are wearing their everyday clothes and their backs do not need to be bare. Once the ten persons are settled I will take a seat behind their row a few feet behind them. I have four hours to look at them. At any time during this time, I may choose to submit a sheet where I can select up to five numbers. Once I submit that sheet I leave the room. The persons whose numbers are on the sheet leave the row of ten. Their empty chairs are removed and the row is brought together keeping the same order of sequence. I then return to the room and continue looking at the remaining persons. Before the time is up I submit my answer on an answer sheet with the number of the person I think is the one who has had a kidney removed or I state that I am unable to detect which of the persons is missing a kidney. I submit the answer sheet to one of the Skeptics and the accuracy is then determined. The person should bring medical documentation that verifies that they have had a kidney removed, otherwise we can check for the scar at the back. Let's discuss the protocol for the preliminary test, and most of all I hope to hear from some of you who might know someone who has had a kidney removed so that I can arrange a preliminary test with you.

9th August 2009, 06:51 PM	#4
Giggywig Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,312	Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves?
	__________________ Linus: "Why do I have to get a measles shot? Who ever worries about measles? What's a little 'rubeola' among friends?" Lucy: "Your stupidity is appalling!!!" Linus: "Most stupidity is!"

9th August 2009, 08:15 PM	#6
JPL New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 18	Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling Attention Skeptics Nationwide, The person should bring medical documentation that verifies that they have had a kidney removed, otherwise we can check for the scar at the back. . Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front...
JPL New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 18

9th August 2009, 10:38 PM	#12
lionking Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 15,941	Originally Posted by SezMe Who's Anita? Anita=VFF
	__________________ You must believe in free will; there is no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer

9th August 2009, 11:12 PM	#14
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling Attention Skeptics Nationwide, I am a paranormal claimant investigating my claim of medical perceptions. When I look at people I perceive images in my mind that depict the inside of their bodies, see more on www.visionfromfeeling.com. I have submitted a claim and suggested test protocol to the Independent Investigations Group IIG West and they are arranging a test for me to take place in Hollywood California hopefully by the end of the year. The test will involve detecting which of persons is missing a kidney and I will only get to see the persons from behind, neck down. The IIG have suggested that I have a preliminary test before having the official test with them so that I am better prepared for the outcome of their test. That is why I am asking all of you if any of you would be willing to set up a preliminary test of my claim with me. All that is required is that you find one or several persons who have had a kidney removed. If you know such a person, who would be able to sit for the test, and can then find nine other persons who have both kidneys for the test. I will travel to take the test near you and I will pay for the location and arrange the screens for the test. If you know a person who has had a kidney removed, or are willing to make the effort to finding such persons for the test, let's discuss it here. Being the claimant I am unable to arrange for the persons myself. Also, let's discuss the test protocol for the kidney detection test on this thread. All other topics are referred to the General VFF Thread. Thank you, Paranormal Claimant VisionFromFeeling The preliminary test protocol so far: One person who has had a kidney removed is sitting among nine other persons who have both kidneys. Their order of sequence is determined randomly. The back rest of their chairs is facing to the left so that their backs can be seen. A fabric curtain is attached from the ceiling and comes down to cover head and necks of the persons. A number is placed on the floor by each of the chairs with numbers from 1 to 10 from left to right. The persons are wearing their everyday clothes and their backs do not need to be bare. Once the ten persons are settled I will take a seat behind their row a few feet behind them. I have four hours to look at them. At any time during this time, I may choose to submit a sheet where I can select up to five numbers. Once I submit that sheet I leave the room. The persons whose numbers are on the sheet leave the row of ten. Their empty chairs are removed and the row is brought together keeping the same order of sequence. I then return to the room and continue looking at the remaining persons. Before the time is up I submit my answer on an answer sheet with the number of the person I think is the one who has had a kidney removed or I state that I am unable to detect which of the persons is missing a kidney. I submit the answer sheet to one of the Skeptics and the accuracy is then determined. The person should bring medical documentation that verifies that they have had a kidney removed, otherwise we can check for the scar at the back. Let's discuss the protocol for the preliminary test, and most of all I hope to hear from some of you who might know someone who has had a kidney removed so that I can arrange a preliminary test with you. There are 303,824,640 people in the US. According to the US Congressional Kidney Caucus, one person in 750 is born with a single kidney. The above figures indicate that there are approximately 405 000 people in the US with one kidney and no scar. It's reasonable to assume that not all of these people will be aware of their condition. There is a reasonably high probability that one of these people will end up in your pool of examinees. How do you intend to screen these people out of the test?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

9th August 2009, 06:33 PM	#2
shandyjan Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 1,336	I would have thought the volunteers would come from unknown sources and have nothing to do with one of the places (JREF) that youre making the claims?

9th August 2009, 06:43 PM	#3
Empress Abandoned All Hope Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Blandings Castle Posts: 1,188	Anyone up for a pool on how long this thread takes to get "moderated" status?

9th August 2009, 07:05 PM	#5
SezMe Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 9,850	Yes, four hours is quite long to sit. For people who have had a kidney removed, would sitting for four hours lead to discomfort in a way not applicable to those who have not had the operation? ETA: Why do you need the preliminary step of removing five "sitters"?

9th August 2009, 09:04 PM	#7
VisionFromFeeling Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina, United States Posts: 1,363	Originally Posted by shandyjan I would have thought the volunteers would come from unknown sources and have nothing to do with one of the places (JREF) that youre making the claims? For the preliminary test it should be ok if Skeptics who are not affiliated to the JREF know the volunteers and arrange for them to the test. Originally Posted by Giggywig Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves? Originally Posted by SezMe Yes, four hours is quite long to sit. For people who have had a kidney removed, would sitting for four hours lead to discomfort in a way not applicable to those who have not had the operation? ETA: Why do you need the preliminary step of removing five "sitters"? I was hoping for second opinions on the four hours and I agree. How do we all feel about two hours with five volunteers, and then another two hours with the other five? That would also eliminate the use of the sheet that removes up to five volunteers from the ten. The purpose of that sheet was for me to select out the ones that I am most certain have both kidneys, so to narrow down on the five that I think are most likely to be missing a kidney. Although awkward from a test perspective, it would have been more convenient for me because I keep going back and forth looking at the volunteers. I would prefer to see all ten at the same time, but the volunteers need to also be taken into account. I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break. Also you are right, we need to take into account that sitting for four hours might reveal symptoms of their kidney situation.

9th August 2009, 09:12 PM	#8
VisionFromFeeling Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North Carolina, United States Posts: 1,363	Originally Posted by JPL Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front... Thank you for that, we now know that checking for the scar is more involved than I had first thought. Would your wife be willing to take part in the preliminary test with me? Once we have a person who has had a kidney removed, and if you are able to find nine other women who have both kidneys and who can also take part in the test, we can design the preliminary test and make arrangements. Then I would refer you to your local Skeptical society so that we can involve more Skeptics in the test.

9th August 2009, 10:35 PM	#10
SezMe Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 9,850	Who's Anita?

9th August 2009, 10:37 PM	#11
SezMe Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 9,850	VFF you are asking for 24 minutes to look at each person. 24? Is your vision like the old Polaroid cameras such that the picture of the person's innards slowly develops with time?

9th August 2009, 11:10 PM	#13
SezMe Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 9,850	I deduced that but I was trying to make a point with Farencue that he/she should use nics rather than Real Life names. This is a pet peeve of mine that you see often in the 911 subforum and bigfoot forum. Sometimes it's obvious who the reference is (as in this case) but often it is not. Maybe I should have been more direct. Can you help me down off this soapbox now?

9th August 2009, 11:17 PM	#15
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	Originally Posted by JPL Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front... Oh dear. Add people with surgically removed kidneys and no back scar to the 405 000 I mentioned in my previous post. According to your research, VFF, what proportion of people who have had a kidney removed have a back scar? How was this research conducted?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

9th August 2009, 11:20 PM	#16
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling <snip> I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break. Also you are right, we need to take into account that sitting for four hours might reveal symptoms of their kidney situation. Might ????eleven?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

9th August 2009, 11:22 PM	#17
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Akhenaten There are 303,824,640 people in the US. According to the US Congressional Kidney Caucus, one person in 750 is born with a single kidney. The above figures indicate that there are approximately 405 000 people in the US with one kidney and no scar. It's reasonable to assume that not all of these people will be aware of their condition. There is a reasonably high probability that one of these people will end up in your pool of examinees. How do you intend to screen these people out of the test? Hey, good call...
	__________________

9th August 2009, 11:23 PM	#18
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	Originally Posted by JPL Scar on the back? My wife wants to play! When she donated a kidney a couple years back it was removed from the front... Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling Thank you for that, we now know that checking for the scar is more involved than I had first thought. <snip> You're claiming to be ready for a test and you don't even know how to detect a missing kidney using the methods available to people with normal vision. Can you see a problem with this?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

9th August 2009, 11:32 PM	#19
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	As a general comment, VFF, you have no medical background, as further evidenced by the above approach to "kidney detection" and yet you appear determined to continue in your attempts to diagnose people. It won't end well.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

9th August 2009, 11:40 PM	#20
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	VisionFromFeeling.com Quote: We have a solution for the problem of how do we confirm that a person does indeed have both kidneys. This solution came unintentionally from JREF Forum member Akhenaten who said that it should be as simple as checking for the scar after the test. Those that have had a kidney removed would have a scar, and those that have not had a kidney removed would not have that scar. As for people who were born without a kidney, they would be missing a kidney but not have a scar, and we still need to consider this possible complication. Those that have a scar indicating that a kidney would have been removed should also provide documentation to verify that they have had a kidney removed and that the scar could not be due to other reasons. You should be more careful. You seem to rely on some very dodgy sources.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

9th August 2009, 11:42 PM	#21
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aberhaten-by-the-Sea Posts: 10,377	pwned
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

10th August 2009, 12:21 AM	#22
LONGTABBER PE Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,865	oh the pain

10th August 2009, 01:37 AM	#23
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,642	So a claim that started off with vision at a molecular level has now changed to vision at a large organ level... which is going to be nice and difficult to set up, control and arrange. Just think, if only that crushed pill test hadn't failed so badly, we might be within a decade of some form of real test.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

10th August 2009, 02:01 AM	#24
Pixel42 Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 1,594	Originally Posted by Giggywig Four hours seems a bit long. Are the volunteers going to be given bathroom breaks or any way to amuse themselves? The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant. If ten minutes per volunteer isn't enough for VfF to "see" something as obvious as their number of kidneys then most of the claims she has made about her previous successes with her supposed ability can be instantly dismissed, as from her own accounts her observations were usually made in a far shorter time than that. This is the suggested protocol I posted on the other thread. Obviously it has some of the same problems as VfF's (the possibility that one of the other volunteers may have only one kidney and not realise it, for example) but it's much more practical. I'm curious to know why VfF rejected it. 1. The volunteers all wear football jerseys or similiar with a different number on the back. The volunteers are monitored and filmed from the moment they put them on until the end of the test to ensure they have no opportunity to swap shirts. 2. VfF enters a screened off section of the room and sits facing a curtain, on the other side of which is a stool. 3. The first volunteer sits on the stool with their back to the curtain. When he/she is settled, the curtain is drawn back. VfF should not be able to see anything except the stool and its occupant from where she is sitting. The volunteer sits as still as he/she can manage whilst VfF examines him/her. VfF indicates when she has seen enough and the curtain is drawn. The volunteer then returns to the waiting area and the next volunteer takes their place. 4. Repeat for each volunteer. VfF is free to make whatever notes she wishes about the volunteers. 5. When all volunteers have been examined VfF decides which one she thinks has only one kidney and writes the appropriate number on a card which she seals inside an envelope. She then joins the volunteers, adjudicator and observers and places the envelope on a table in clear view. 6. The adjudicator calls for the volunteer with only one kidney to step forward. He/she produces the previously agreed documentary evidence which is examined by VfF and the adjudicator. When both are satisfied the volunteer turns around to show the number on his/her back. The adjudicator then opens VfF's envelope to see if the number she has written is the same. Repeat as many times as necessary to beat the previously agreed odds of chance success.

10th August 2009, 02:22 AM	#25
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 22,651	Originally Posted by Pixel42 The proposed protocol is absurd for this reason alone. No-one is going the volunteer to sit like that for four hours, or even two. I'd say the maximum time that could be reasonably asked is ten minutes. The only one with any motivation to put up with any more inconvenience than that for the sake of such a test is the applicant. Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game. And I personally know two people who have had a kidney removed (one is my own mother, who had a diseased kidney removed many years ago, and the other is a friend who donated a kidney to her sick husband). Both of these have no symptoms or inconvenience from the operation, and could not be guessed to be missing a kidney from their behaviour. However, it seems to me the checking for scars is hopeless. People can have abdominal scars for all sorts of reasons, and different surgeons favour different approaches. I'm surprised that so many people are born with one kidney, but it's certainly something to think about. Doing CT scans of the volunteers seems completely impractical - no medical service would subject people to ionising radiation for something so trivial. Would production of medical records do it? Easy enough to show that someone has had a kidney removed from their records, if there's no impersonation. Might be harder to show that it had never happened I suppose.... These things are never quite as simple as they first appear. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The thing about medicine is, that it all comes down to the numbers." - Dr. Stephen Franklin, Interludes and Examinations. "To give Rolfe his due, I think this is a good example to everyone of what can happen if we fail to get a proper diagnosis and begin treating on symptoms alone--a big mistake, as shown here." - "Snoopy" on H'pathy Forums, apparently abjuring the very fundamentals of homoeopathy after she'd just allowed a young mother with Addison's disease to die. Last edited by Rolfe; 10th August 2009 at 02:24 AM.

10th August 2009, 02:59 AM	#26
Pixel42 Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 1,594	Originally Posted by Rolfe Depends what people are doing during the "sit". People will often sit for quite a while with a good book or a computer game. I was assuming the volunteers would have to sit still to allow VfF to do her stuff, and also to avoid potentially give-away body language. Even with some movement allowed, I suspect it would still be difficult to get enough volunteers. I know I wouldn't consider it worth my time and inconvenience

10th August 2009, 03:16 AM	#27
Sean84 Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 731	I just want to scream "malarkey, malarkey!" Malarkey is a substitute for a rule violation.

10th August 2009, 03:20 AM	#28
Farencue Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Far NQ Posts: 309	Why would anyone want to take a "missing kidney" test when they have already failed at this? I am referring specifically to the fact that VfF did not mention that Dr Carlson had a missing kidney when she had a "reading" with him at her local skeptic meeting. Does "I knew it but I didnt mention it" REALLY mean you didnt fail? Would that excuse cut it with any JREFers here?

10th August 2009, 03:24 AM	#29
Ocelot Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,121	Four hours is a long time. How about you see the subjects one at a time.
Ocelot Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,121	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne

10th August 2009, 03:25 AM	#30
skeen Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 257	The wheels on the bus!
skeen Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 257

10th August 2009, 03:36 AM	#31
Giggywig Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,312	Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling I would imagine that the test can be paused if a volunteer (or claimant) absolutely has to take a break. I would recommend you have scheduled breaks every set period of time (say 20-30 minutes) when all volunteers would stand up and leave the room for 5 minutes, stretch their legs and if needed use the bathroom. That way you are not distracted by who needs to pee every 40 minutes.
	__________________ Linus: "Why do I have to get a measles shot? Who ever worries about measles? What's a little 'rubeola' among friends?" Lucy: "Your stupidity is appalling!!!" Linus: "Most stupidity is!"

10th August 2009, 05:37 AM	#32
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 22,651	Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The thing about medicine is, that it all comes down to the numbers." - Dr. Stephen Franklin, Interludes and Examinations. "To give Rolfe his due, I think this is a good example to everyone of what can happen if we fail to get a proper diagnosis and begin treating on symptoms alone--a big mistake, as shown here." - "Snoopy" on H'pathy Forums, apparently abjuring the very fundamentals of homoeopathy after she'd just allowed a young mother with Addison's disease to die.

10th August 2009, 05:51 AM	#33
LissaLysikan Thinker Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: A forest in Georgia, US Posts: 211	Originally Posted by Rolfe Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you? Rolfe. Since needing to pee often is a symptom of possible kidney problems, I agree with Rolfe - why would you? would be like stacking the deck. VFF might see a malfunctioning kidney as not there. The control group need to have functioning kidneys for it to be a fair test of her ability.

10th August 2009, 05:53 AM	#34
Giggywig Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,312	Originally Posted by Rolfe Well, don't use any volunteers who need to pee every 40 minutes. Why would you? Rolfe. From what I recall from other efforts by VFF, lack of volunteers was an issue. With a requirement to sit for 4 hours, volunteers might not be easy to come by. I'm just thinking making it an easier time for everybody involved will give the test itself greater chance of success (not the claimant mind you, but the test itself).
	__________________ Linus: "Why do I have to get a measles shot? Who ever worries about measles? What's a little 'rubeola' among friends?" Lucy: "Your stupidity is appalling!!!" Linus: "Most stupidity is!"

10th August 2009, 05:57 AM	#35
Gmonster2 Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Western Australia Posts: 95	These quotes are from the VFF website This is from the FACT readings “For the first time ever I forced a time limit on myself to try to keep it within 15 minutes. If I recall it took me 18 minutes. I think the time limit might affect my results such that I don't have time to find all the information that I can find but I know that a test will probably be restricted to only a few ailments, giving me plenty of time. The way I will be looking to detect that a kidney is missing will be easier since it already involves a specific area of the body and will be the same general area for all persons so I do not have to search across the body. Also I already know the feeling that corresponds to the absence of the feeling of a kidney. But the most important technique is that I will be able to compare with the opposite side to feel if the left and right side at where the kidneys should be feel vastly different.” ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These are taken straight from your own website why 4hrs for the readings? You say yourself you know where to look and its only one thing to look for? And why do u want to narrow down from 10 to 5 then check again , why are you so full of contradictions? You’ve been practicing as well does it take 24 mins to locate your own kidneys? You did a whole body reading in 15-18 mins why can't you find a kidney in 10 mins???????????????????? You talk the talk but can’t walk the walk..

10th August 2009, 06:28 AM	#36
skeen Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 257	Yep, bog standard Anita. Making a protocol which will never work. Do you guys think she's going to let up on the 4 hour requirement? I guarantee you she won't. Then, when none of this happens, she'll blame it on the lack of volunteers. How many times have we been here before?
skeen Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 257