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Old 12th August 2009, 09:52 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
I've often wondered why many Latin-American depictions of La Virgen de Guadalupe have such a strong resemblance to a woman's ... <ahem> ... "Private Parts". On the one hand, they are depicting the Virgin Mary. On the other hand, they're projecting a strong subliminal message of sexuality. On the gripping hand, it must put more people in the pews and thus more coins in the collection plate.

Sex sells - it even sells religion!
It would appear that the Virgin of Guadalupe is yet another example of the Catholic Church incorporating pagan beliefs into their version of Christianity in order to make Catholocism more acceptable to the natives and win more converts.

Seems she was based on an "Earth mother" or fertility goddess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_of_Guadalupe
Quote:
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is often read as a coded image. Miguel Sanchez, the author of the 1648 tract Imagen de la Virgen Mara, described the Virgin's image as the Woman of the Apocalypse from the New Testament's Revelation 12:1: "arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." Mateo de la Cruz, writing twelve years after Snchez, argued that "the Guadalupe possessed all the iconographical attributes of Mary in her Immaculate Conception".[3] Likewise, a 1738 sermon preached by Miguel Picazo argued that the Guadalupe was the "best representation" of the Immaculate Conception.[3]

Many writers, including Patricia Harrington and Virgilio Elizondo, describe the image as containing coded messages for the indigenous people of Mexico.[4][5]

"The Aztecs...had an elaborate, coherent symbolic system for making sense of their lives. When this was destroyed by the Spaniards, something new was needed to fill the void and make sense of New Spain...the image of Guadalupe served that purpose."[6]

Her blue-green mantle was described as the color once reserved for the divine couple Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl;[7] her belt is interpreted as a sign of pregnancy; and a cross-shaped image symbolizing the cosmos and called nahui-ollin is said to be inscribed beneath the image's sash.[8]

Yet another interpretation of the image is offered by the historian William B. Taylor, who recounted that Guadalupe has also been "acclaimed goddess of the maguey [agave]" and pulque was drunk on her feast day. A 1772 report described the rays of light around Guadalupe as maguey spines.[9][10]
Quote:
Some historians believe the icon syncretically represents both Virgin Mary and the indigenous Mexican goddess Tonantzin. Others believe the Virgin was a simplified and sanitized version of Coatlicue, the Aztec mother goddess. This syncretism may have provided a way for 16th century Spaniards to gain converts among the indigenous population of early Mexico; it may also have provided a method for 16th century indigenous Mexicans to covertly practice their native religion.

Guadalupe is often considered a mixture of the cultures which blend to form Mexico, both racially[25] and religiously[26] Guadalupe is sometimes called the "first mestiza"[27] or "the first Mexican".[28] In the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Mary O'Connor writes that Guadalupe "bring[s] together people of distinct cultural heritages, while at the same time affirming their distinctness."[29]

One theory is that the Virgin of Guadalupe was presented to the Aztecs as a sort of "Christianised" Tonantzin, necessary for the clergymen to convert the Indians to their Faith. As Jacques Lafaye wrote in Quetzalcoatl and Guadalupe, "...as the Christians built their first churches with the rubble and the columns of the ancient pagan temples, so they often borrowed pagan customs for their own cult purposes."[30]

Some theologians also associate the Virgin of Guadalupe with a special relationship between the indigenous peoples of the American continents and the Catholic Church. This perspective developed as the scriptural terms of truths "hid ... from the wise and prudent" but "revealed...unto babes" (Matthew 11:25), but later developed into the "spiritual mestizaje of the Americas",[4] and the "option for the poor" provided by Liberation theology.
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Old 13th August 2009, 01:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
I've often wondered why many Latin-American depictions of La Virgen de Guadalupe have such a strong resemblance to a woman's ... <ahem> ... "Private Parts".

?

Pics, please.
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Old 13th August 2009, 01:43 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by shecky View Post
?

Pics, please.
I looked for it, but since it's been vandalised, there aren't any good pics of the underpass stain.

Yes, I typed that right. Underpass stain.
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Old 13th August 2009, 05:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
My main interest is the phenomena refered to as the "Miracle Of The Sun" This had the most diverse and dispersed observations
I've always been confused by what the actual miracle is supposed to be. People reported seeing the sun 'dance in the sky', and 'bright colours flashed towards the earth'.

So, is this:
  • An optical illusion, nothing supernatural.
  • An optical illusion, caused by something supernatural.
  • A physical event, that had no other effects on the earth, and was only seen by people in this small region of Portugal.
  • Something else.
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Old 13th August 2009, 06:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by shecky View Post
?

Pics, please.
Our Lady of GuadalupeWP

Some people appear to get off on auras, but everyone has one, don't they?

Last edited by shadron; 13th August 2009 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 13th August 2009, 07:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
I've always been confused by what the actual miracle is supposed to be. People reported seeing the sun 'dance in the sky', and 'bright colours flashed towards the earth'.


So, is this:
  • An optical illusion, nothing supernatural.
  • An optical illusion, caused by something supernatural.
  • A physical event, that had no other effects on the earth, and was only seen by people in this small region of Portugal.
  • Something else.
I was reading yestersday a series of eyewitness accounts. I wont post the site because I cant vouch for the impartiality nor does it link to sources for the accounts

But what seems to be a near constant in the reports was the sun at first changing to a silver or pearl colour, then ranged through a number of others including blue and red, people report that this colour covered the landscape, and a possible scientific observer suggested that the area darkened similiar to the early stages of an eclipse.

Beyond this some claimed to see the Virgin Mary in the Sun, others expanded this to also include St Joseph and Jesus himself.

Another constant was the observation that people could look directly at the sun without any trouble.

To try and seek any scientific answer to this is hard because of the lack of forensics. We really only have eyewitness accounts, and any scientist will tell you how good they are.

The things they do know is the air moisture was way up due to the constant showers 48 hour prior. The cloud cover was broken and moving fairly quickly from West to East. And where the people gathered was very boggy and wet.

I would argue from a thesist point of view that it is a win win lol - If it can be proved through science that a natural phenomena occured then the default position is - How did the girls know that it would happen where they predicted. This was not a spontanious grouping. It had been announced some time before that something would happen, hence the media presence and at least a few scientists.
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Old 13th August 2009, 07:36 AM   #47
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On a side note - can anyone recall any details of an apparition that occured in Egypt in the 80's or 90's. There was a glowing light on the roof of a Church. I was trying to google it with out success. I know video and photos were taken, and I might be mistaken but I am sure CNN or some such media organisation did a live cross to the area during one of the events.
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Old 13th August 2009, 08:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Ever hear of paradolia...



....

Ever hear of Jean Harlow?

I think that what we have here is a case of a Foodstuff-Equivalent Intentionally Generated Non-Enzymatic Darkening (or FEIGNED) image.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Harlow1.jpg (4.5 KB, 174 views)
File Type: jpg Harlow2.jpg (24.1 KB, 1 views)
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Old 13th August 2009, 12:45 PM   #49
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By FSM - you're right, it's the second piccy of Jean in the toast.
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Old 13th August 2009, 01:02 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lensman View Post
By FSM - you're right, it's the second piccy of Jean in the toast.
No it's not. It's the first picture! Any fool can see it and I submit to you that I am that fool.

. . . errrr . . .
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Old 13th August 2009, 02:00 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
I've often wondered why many Latin-American depictions of La Virgen de Guadalupe have such a strong resemblance to a woman's ... <ahem> ... "Private Parts". On the one hand, they are depicting the Virgin Mary. On the other hand, they're projecting a strong subliminal message of sexuality. On the gripping hand, it must put more people in the pews and thus more coins in the collection plate.

Sex sells - it even sells religion!
About 5 years ago, we had an apparition, projected by a broken light bulb on the wall of a government local hospital.



But of course... people see what they want to see.

Catholics saw the Virgin Mary, I saw Mary's Virginity.
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Old 13th August 2009, 02:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Gagglegnash View Post
Ever hear of Jean Harlow?

I think that what we have here is a case of a Foodstuff-Equivalent Intentionally Generated Non-Enzymatic Darkening (or FEIGNED) image.

Hmm, I'd always thought Gibson Girl, but you make a strong case.
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Old 13th August 2009, 03:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by cafetimes1991 View Post
Does anyone here have some good arguments against (or for) Marian apparitions, such as Lourdes, Fatima etc?
I have done some Googleing, but have not found much really so far.
There were apparitions in my area, and I just don't get why those who claimed to see St. Mary would lie like that.

Thanks
Do you get why the Cottingley girls would lie about the fairies at the bottom of their garden?

It happens, kids sometimes lie to get attention. Usually the adults do their job and check that they are telling the truth, but sometimes adults, like Conan Doyle, get all carried away with the lie and it gets out of hand.

Sometimes the lie gets so out of hand that it comes to be the basis for the economies of some small towns.

And sometimes religious leaders, who should know better, pretend to go along with the lie in order not to offend the Goddess cult in their midst.
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Old 13th August 2009, 08:00 PM   #54
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Hi

Originally Posted by Puggy View Post
About 5 years ago, we had an apparition, projected by a broken light bulb on the wall of a government local hospital.



But of course... people see what they want to see.

Catholics saw the Virgin Mary, I saw Mary's Virginity.

Now... see... that is DEFINITELY Darth Vader!
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Old 6th September 2009, 01:51 AM   #55
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Bump
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Old 7th September 2009, 08:39 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by shandyjan View Post

Bernadette died in prayer at the age of 34. 30 years after Bernadette passed away, her coffin was exumed because Pope Pius XI wished to offer Bernadette beautifucation due to her piousness and visions of the Holy Mother. What was found was truly a miracle, which almost immediately led to her canonization as a Saint. Saint Bernadette looked exactly the same as the day of her death. Not even the smallest hint of decay or smell was present.
I have read several accounts of this (the book "The Incorruptibles" is very interesting and informative.)

But one account I read somewhere on the web said that she was nowhere near as "exactly as she was the day she died" as the religious around her exhumed corpse claim. The other witnesses said that she looked good, but her abdomen, when thumped gently, sounded like cardboard, her face was a little sunken, her lashes were stuck to her face strangely, and that no-one could mistake this corpse for a living person. I know this was recorded somewhere and is probably easy to find. As with other "incorruptibles" they are well preserved, but the rosy accounts are exaggerated. And the Bernadette you see today has a waxen mask over her face and hands to hide the blackness that is really present. So she is, again, well preserved, but not "incorruptible."

Still, she is lovely, as is Blessed Imelda and Maria Goretti.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:23 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
I have read several accounts of this (the book "The Incorruptibles" is very interesting and informative.)

But one account I read somewhere on the web said that she was nowhere near as "exactly as she was the day she died" as the religious around her exhumed corpse claim. The other witnesses said that she looked good, but her abdomen, when thumped gently, sounded like cardboard, her face was a little sunken, her lashes were stuck to her face strangely, and that no-one could mistake this corpse for a living person. I know this was recorded somewhere and is probably easy to find. As with other "incorruptibles" they are well preserved, but the rosy accounts are exaggerated. And the Bernadette you see today has a waxen mask over her face and hands to hide the blackness that is really present. So she is, again, well preserved, but not "incorruptible."

Still, she is lovely, as is Blessed Imelda and Maria Goretti.
This episode of the great Skeptoid podcast also debunks the myth of the so called incorruptibles.
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Old 7th September 2009, 12:50 PM   #58
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I wonder why the apparitions of Mary and Jesus never seem to resemble Jews from the Galilee.
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Old 7th September 2009, 06:04 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
This episode of the great Skeptoid podcast also debunks the myth of the so called incorruptibles.
Thanks! I'll give a listen!
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Old 8th September 2009, 07:56 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
I wonder why the apparitions of Mary and Jesus never seem to resemble Jews from the Galilee.
The same reason that most artistic representations don't either. People like to think of their gods, goddesses, heroes, etc., looking much like them. I don't think I've ever seen an "accurate" picture of Jesus. He's always depicted as a handsome Caucasian man with a beard and Pantene-perfect hair.
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:32 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I would argue from a thesist point of view that it is a win win lol - If it can be proved through science that a natural phenomena occured then the default position is - How did the girls know that it would happen where they predicted. This was not a spontanious grouping. It had been announced some time before that something would happen, hence the media presence and at least a few scientists.
I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from here. This Fatima thing is so expected that if it was a miracle, it has to be the lamest miracle ever ever.

Thousands of true believers congregate, fully expecting to see a miracle in the sky. They stare at the sun, something that probably most people don't do too often, and the unfamiliar brightness causes vision/imagination anomalies that the true believers ascribe to a miracle.

Where is the interesting story here? Well, it's a good study in mass psychology, but as evidence for a miracle, wow, what a lame one it was.

So why are you asking about an "it" that happened? Do you really think there was some phenomenon going on, external to the minds of the people there? Really? Why?

I just don't see anything that needs an explanation - it's all mundane effects.
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:03 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
I don't think I've ever seen an "accurate" picture of Jesus. He's always depicted as a handsome Caucasian man with a beard and Pantene-perfect hair.
And don't forget that his skin is perfect for a carpenter. His colleagues must have been jealous. And his oh-so-blue eyes and always thoughtful/holy expression. Or maybe he used lots of sunscreen and lotions and practiced meditation for hours.

Lovely pictures, but not accurate in the least.
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:43 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
The same reason that most artistic representations don't either. People like to think of their gods, goddesses, heroes, etc., looking much like them. I don't think I've ever seen an "accurate" picture of Jesus. He's always depicted as a handsome Caucasian man with a beard and Pantene-perfect hair.
I should have used one of those smiley icons
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
And don't forget that his skin is perfect for a carpenter. His colleagues must have been jealous. And his oh-so-blue eyes and always thoughtful/holy expression. Or maybe he used lots of sunscreen and lotions and practiced meditation for hours.

Lovely pictures, but not accurate in the least.
And don't forget the other-wordly glow, and sometimes halo. That must have been annoying when the Apostles were trying to go to sleep:

"Jesus Christ! Can you turn that thing down!?"

Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
I should have used one of those smiley icons
Poe's Law.
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Old 8th September 2009, 11:29 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from here. This Fatima thing is so expected that if it was a miracle, it has to be the lamest miracle ever ever.

Thousands of true believers congregate, fully expecting to see a miracle in the sky. They stare at the sun, something that probably most people don't do too often, and the unfamiliar brightness causes vision/imagination anomalies that the true believers ascribe to a miracle.

Where is the interesting story here? Well, it's a good study in mass psychology, but as evidence for a miracle, wow, what a lame one it was.

So why are you asking about an "it" that happened? Do you really think there was some phenomenon going on, external to the minds of the people there? Really? Why?

I just don't see anything that needs an explanation - it's all mundane effects.
I've heard this explanation before, but in my opinion, it's not plausible. 70000 people gathered to witness the "miracle" and not even one of them realizes that it's just an optical illusion from staring too long at the sun?

Being an atheist living in Portugal, i can't provide a reasonable explanation for what happened in Fatima. I believe that something DID happen in Fatima. Was it paranormal? Was it a miracle? Probably not, but the theory that thousands of people were fooled by a simple trick that not even a 5 year old would fall for seems too simple to be true.

I'll try to dig up more about the topic.
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Old 8th September 2009, 11:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
And don't forget the other-wordly glow, and sometimes halo. That must have been annoying when the Apostles were trying to go to sleep:

"Jesus Christ! Can you turn that thing down!?"
I would nominate that for pith, but I'm not sure how.
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Old 8th September 2009, 12:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Pure_Argent View Post
I would nominate that for pith, but I'm not sure how.
Hey thanks. And, just to suit my own ends, I'll help you. See the little button on the bottom left of each post? Click that. It will immediately take you to a quote screen, saying something like:

I nominate the following post:

[Said post]

Then you can type your reasons for it below, if you wish.
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Old 8th September 2009, 12:54 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
Hey thanks. And, just to suit my own ends, I'll help you. See the little http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/...s/nominate.gif button on the bottom left of each post? Click that. It will immediately take you to a quote screen, saying something like:

I nominate the following post:

[Said post]

Then you can type your reasons for it below, if you wish.
Ah, thanks. Thought that was it, but I wasn't sure, and I wasn't going to click that button until I was. I mean, I wasn't sure if there was a separate nomination process for the language and pith awards.
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Old 8th September 2009, 12:58 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Pure_Argent View Post
Ah, thanks. Thought that was it, but I wasn't sure, and I wasn't going to click that button until I was. I mean, I wasn't sure if there was a separate nomination process for the language and pith awards.
No worries. They all fall under the same nomination process, and have an equal chance of being selected.
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Old 8th September 2009, 03:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Lothario View Post
I've heard this explanation before, but in my opinion, it's not plausible. 70000 people gathered to witness the "miracle" and not even one of them realizes that it's just an optical illusion from staring too long at the sun?
69900 of them realized it was an illusion and went home, the other 100 were the ones who gushed about a miracle.
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Old 8th September 2009, 03:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
69900 of them realized it was an illusion and went home, the other 100 were the ones who gushed about a miracle.
69900 of them went home. Of the remaining, 100, 90 realized that it was an illusion but owned a tourist shop and decided it could not hurt. Of the remaining 10, 8 were afraid of what the neighbour would think of them if they refused to accept the miracle, plus, they were quite happy to be part of something so important and meaningful, they quickly convinced themselves that they did, indeed, see something. Of the remaining two, one did not want to upset his wife, 'yes darling, I see it too'.


Eye witnesses account are quite terrible.
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Old 8th September 2009, 04:13 PM   #72
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Not seeing apparition = Not news

Given the audience size, there should have been far more accounts of alleged supernatural events than there were.
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Old 8th September 2009, 07:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by blue sock monkey View Post
Not seeing apparition = Not news

Given the audience size, there should have been far more accounts of alleged supernatural events than there were.
Based on what? Past supernatural events with audiences of similar size?
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:57 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by RobRoy View Post
Based on what? Past supernatural events with audiences of similar size?
I typed too fast--what I meant to say was, if there were thousands who really did witness the sun doing wild and crazy things, I would expect far more reports than we actually got. Not to mention panic in the streets.
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Old 9th September 2009, 07:27 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by blue sock monkey View Post
I typed too fast--what I meant to say was, if there were thousands who really did witness the sun doing wild and crazy things, I would expect far more reports than we actually got. Not to mention panic in the streets.
No, I got what you meant. I just didn't agree with your premise. If supernatural events occur, and if there is a faith-based supernatural event, and if a certain number of people showed up to witness it, then how many people would actually report witnessing said event? <shrug>

Too many variables, on a presumption of that paranormal events might occur, to make that statement. And far too easy to argue for the "believers". I just have to say that only the faithful saw it, or only those "pure" enough saw it, etc., ad nauseum. Thus, scientific, verifiable proof is the only way to quantify such an event. Anything else should be rejected as eyewitness assertion.
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Old 9th September 2009, 07:59 AM   #76
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Here's a contemporary, real-time example of a marian apparition cult:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...=es&lr=lang_en

Even now, in 2009, this cult is going strong.
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Old 9th September 2009, 08:16 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Here's a contemporary, real-time example of a marian apparition cult:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...=es&lr=lang_en

Even now, in 2009, this cult is going strong.
Everyone likes to belong and feel special . . . well, almost everyone.
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Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. whatthebutlersaw

Far an taine n abhainn, s ann as m a fuaim.

All your base are belong to us.
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Old 9th September 2009, 08:30 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by fnord View Post
i've often wondered why many latin-american depictions of la virgen de guadalupe have such a strong resemblance to a woman's ... <ahem> ... "private parts". On the one hand, they are depicting the virgin mary. On the other hand, they're projecting a strong subliminal message of sexuality. On the gripping hand, it must put more people in the pews and thus more coins in the collection plate.

Sex sells - it even sells religion!
you motie!!!!

Last edited by CriticalSock; 9th September 2009 at 09:08 AM. Reason: Add bolding
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Old 20th October 2010, 11:27 PM   #79
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To the people responding to MG1962, you forget that the event was both predicted by the children and two different psychics. Have you ever looked at all of the details, or are you just brushing it off without thinking about it critically?
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Old 21st October 2010, 09:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Zanders View Post
To the people responding to MG1962, you forget that the event was both predicted by the children and two different psychics.
No, the event wasn’t. The children didn’t state that the sun would do some crazy things after a large group had gathered, it had rained heavily, everyone starred at the sun for a long time, and so forth. The children simply said that Mary would reveal herself.

I’m not familiar with the psychics you mention. Please provide more information on them.

Quote:
Have you ever looked at all of the details, or are you just brushing it off without thinking about it critically?
Your premise here is flawed. You do understand that the definition of critical thinking is a review of evidence through observation, and arriving at a conclusion based on scientific method. It is systematic and practical. Even if the Miracle of the Sun were a paranormal, you would rely on critical thinkers to review the data at hand and provide a repeatable, perhaps even testable, explanation for the occurrence. If they failed to do so, then you might be able to qualify the event as paranormal. But you wouldn't ask someone who considered themselves to think critically, to throw away all rational and reasonable explanations and simply go with "Goddidit".
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