How the insurance companies are playing healthcare reform opponents for fools

Vic Vega · 17th August 2009, 12:24 PM

"The most vocal folks at the town hall meetings seem to share the same ideology as my kinfolks in East Tennessee and my former CIGNA buddy: the less government involvement in our lives, the better.

That point couldn't have been made clearer than by the man standing in line to get free care at Remote Area Medical's recent health care "expedition" at the Wise County, Virginia, fairgrounds, who told a reporter he was dead set against President Obama's reform proposal.

Even though he didn't have health insurance, and could see the desperation in the faces of thousands of others all around him who were in similar straits, he was more worried about the possibility of having to pay more taxes than he was eager to make sure he and his neighbors wouldn't have to wait in line to get care provided by volunteer doctors in animal stalls."

"So the next time you hear someone warning against a "government takeover" of our health care system, or that the creation of a public health insurance option would send us down the "slippery slope toward socialism," know that someone like I used to be wrote those terms, knowing it might turn many of the very people who would benefit most from meaningful reform into unwitting spokespeople for the industry."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/...nce/index.html

Praktik · 17th August 2009, 12:41 PM

Author of the piece, Wendell Porter, interviewed here.

T.A.M. · 17th August 2009, 12:58 PM

Here is what is really insane. If you listed a top ten of what people would wish their taxes would go to pay, I am willing to bet health care would be one of them.

TAM

Rolfe · 17th August 2009, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

Here is what is really insane. If you listed a top ten of what people would wish their taxes would go to pay, I am willing to bet health care would be one of them.

Exactly. If the right-wingers who like to dredge up the British complaints about the NHS read to the end, they'd find that the complainants don't want the NHS to be abolished and a US-style system to take its place, they want the government to spend more of their taxes on it!!!!

Almost every single time you hear complaints about the NHS, the line is something like, please stop spending so much money on Trident and on screwing up people's lives in Iraq, and spend it on US!

Rolfe.

JoeTheJuggler · 17th August 2009, 03:10 PM

You guys are making too much sense on this thread.

Where's someone to come along and start spouting some nonsense?

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2009, 03:12 PM

Obama wants to use tax money to kill old people!!

JoeTheJuggler · 17th August 2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Obama wants to use tax money to kill old people!!

Thank you!

T.A.M. · 17th August 2009, 03:29 PM

American: We voted for Obama, because we wanted change.
Canadian: Ok, well maybe you should get him to make health care available for all of you.
American: **** that. I ****ing hate government. NIMBY!!! NIMBY!!!
Canadian: (Raises eyebrows, shakes head, and carries on with what he was doing).

TAM

tyr_13 · 17th August 2009, 04:34 PM

But you don't understand! Private industry has always done everything better than government. Err, I mean, people who don't have insurance have only themselves to blame... Or, umm, I mean...

Oh! It doesn't work in other countries! Well fine, it works great in other countries... but they have to pay more! Except that they don't....

Maybe I'm too close to Canada, but this really shouldn't surprise anyone. I like the free market, but I like it to have rules that protect people.

boooeee · 17th August 2009, 10:03 PM

Does anybody have links substantiating the notion that health insurance companies are the ones funding and/or encouraging the vocal anti-reform people at the town hall meetings?

The commentary linked in the OP doesn't provide much.

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2009, 10:08 PM

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=FreedomWorks

boooeee · 17th August 2009, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=FreedomWorks

Not a single mention of health insurance companies on that site.

tyr_13 · 17th August 2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by boooeee

Does anybody have links substantiating the notion that health insurance companies are the ones funding and/or encouraging the vocal anti-reform people at the town hall meetings?

The commentary linked in the OP doesn't provide much.

Did you read the article in the link? It's an industry whistle blower whose job it was to do such things.

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2009, 10:37 PM

http://pharmagossip.blogspot.com/200...ealthcare.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32454754

boooeee · 17th August 2009, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Did you read the article in the link? It's an industry whistle blower whose job it was to do such things.

Yep. The evidence he provided was in regards to health insurance opposition to prior reform efforts (Patients Bill of Rights, Clinton Era Reform, etc.). As far as I can tell, the industry is mostly on board with the reform efforts being proposed today.

boooeee · 17th August 2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

http://pharmagossip.blogspot.com/200...ealthcare.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32454754

Video links. Very helpful.

boooeee · 17th August 2009, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

http://pharmagossip.blogspot.com/200...ealthcare.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32454754

Just watched the entire 7 minute Rachel Maddow link. Excellent report. Not one mention of insurance companies.

I'm not gonna bother with your other video link.

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2009, 11:14 PM

I like how you look at the evidence and simply dismiss it without any regard to the facts. I guess that's just a bit too harsh. It seems that it's other big corporations that are fueling the anti-health reform lies and misconceptions. It certainly is not a grass-roots effort.

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2009, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by boooeee

Not a single mention of health insurance companies on that site.

One of the board of directors is a health care executive.

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2009, 11:26 PM

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/28/cppr-dci-astroturf/

boooeee · 18th August 2009, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I like how you look at the evidence and simply dismiss it without any regard to the facts. I guess that's just a bit too harsh. It seems that it's other big corporations that are fueling the anti-health reform lies and misconceptions. It certainly is not a grass-roots effort.

There's plenty of disingenuous astro-turfing going on. But it doesn't seem to be the insurance companies, despite what is being claimed in the OP.

T.A.M. · 18th August 2009, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by boooeee

There's plenty of disingenuous astro-turfing going on. But it doesn't seem to be the insurance companies, despite what is being claimed in the OP.

The insurance companies are to smart to have their hands DIRECTLY dirtied by this issue. Have you noticed their sweet little commercials on TV supporting universal coverage, supporting doing away with "pre-existing conditions" clauses. Take it from a doctor (albeit a Canadian one), the health insurance industry DOES NOT want to get rid of "pre-existing health conditions" clauses.

Publicly they are either remaining silent, or pretending to be the good guys.

TAM

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 18th August 2009, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

Take it from a doctor (albeit a Canadian one), the health insurance industry DOES NOT want to get rid of "pre-existing health conditions" clauses.

What the health insurance industry has proposed -- and something that IMHO actually makes sense -- is that they would be fine with getting rid of pre-existing conditions clauses if health insurance was mandatory (a bit of an oddly socialistic proposal from an otherwise capitalistic group). Whether this is a genuine proposal is perhaps another matter, but it is a proposal, nonetheless.

The reality of the system today is that it makes no sense for health insurance companies to not have pre-existing condition clauses. If those clauses didn't exist, people would simply buy insurance when they got sick, and then drop it when they got better (it would be like buying an auto insurance policy after you rear-ended somebody and then expected the insurance company to pay for it). If you simply get rid of pre-existing condition clauses without doing anything else to fix that basic problem, it doesn't make sense. Hence why the system itself needs an overhaul.

DC · 18th August 2009, 05:32 AM

health insurance has to be mandatory

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 18th August 2009, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

One of the board of directors is a health care executive.

That's a bit disingenuous. He was talking about health insurance, and the person you are referring to (as far as I can tell) is Robert J. Stephenson, the CEO of the Cancer Treatment Centers of America -- a group of hospitals. Not the same industry.

It is a valid point, though, that for all the focus on health insurance companies, there are a heck of a lot of other very wealthy industries involved in healthcare that are trying to influence things (including hospitals, big pharma, doctors, etc.).

It does note that Express Scripts, which is a pharmacy benefit manager/pharmaceutical distributor (a related, but not the same, industry as health insurance) has been involved with FreedomWorks.

Praktik · 18th August 2009, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by boooeee

Just watched the entire 7 minute Rachel Maddow link. Excellent report. Not one mention of insurance companies.

I'm not gonna bother with your other video link.

You could read the transcript of the interview I posted in post #2, if the video version is not conforming to your media-type filter..

boooeee · 18th August 2009, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Praktik

You could read the transcript of the interview I posted in post #2, if the video version is not conforming to your media-type filter..

Is there any evidence presented in the transcript which substantiates the claim made in the OP: "How the insurance companies are playing healthcare reform opponents for fools".

Specifically, that health insurance companies are the ones behind the current vitriolic protests and attach ads opposing healthcare reform.

Praktik · 18th August 2009, 08:23 AM

I think the point of the article, written by a guy whose job it was to shape PR for the insurance industry, was that these kinds of protests at the town halls and so on are really lifting the PR language of the industry.

The evidence is in the words they use.

Now this is not an overt, top-down, "you guys go here and say this stuff" kind of thing, and I'm not sure anyone is alleging that.

Its about messaging, and when people are carrying your exact message to these town halls, its evidence that your PR machine is working quite well. Your friendlies in the media are receptive to your press releases and your personal contacts. They repeat your message on-air and in their columns. The public who trust these figures than take the xerox and and repeat the carefully shaped "facts". Nothing is direct. And it would be foolish to say that ALL these protesters at the town halls are buying into this messaging, or that there aren't other factors at play here including genuine concern over the defecit, and higher taxes - but the point is that among all these factors, there is a chain that leads back to the PR machines behind the industries affected.

I would urge you to read the full article and either read the transcript or view the interview I posted, and get out of the dichotomoy of "is the industry directly organizing these protests or not", because if that's your focus then you're missing the point.

Newtons Bit · 18th August 2009, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

Here is what is really insane. If you listed a top ten of what people would wish their taxes would go to pay, I am willing to bet health care would be one of them.

TAM

It would definitely be on mine. Or at least on an individual states top-10 expenditures.

However, the current Obamacare plan is going to raise health-care premiums for just about everyone. We'll have better access, we'll end up paying less when we do need medical care, but the total net cost will be the same. It will just be distributed about more.

JoeTheJuggler · 18th August 2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by boooeee

Does anybody have links substantiating the notion that health insurance companies are the ones funding and/or encouraging the vocal anti-reform people at the town hall meetings?

The commentary linked in the OP doesn't provide much.

I don't think the claim is that the people disrupting town hall meetings are part of some corporate conspiracy. I think instead, the misinformation is being fed (in part) from the insurance companies to very sympathetic political ~~hacks~~ commentators, and the people disrupting the meetings are mostly buying the lies those people are repeating.

There's pretty strong evidence that this is indeed what's going on.

In addition to that, there's also the overt ad war.

ETA: Just got caught up and realized that Praktik made largely this same point but much more eloquently.

T.A.M. · 18th August 2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

It would definitely be on mine. Or at least on an individual states top-10 expenditures.

However, the current Obamacare plan is going to raise health-care premiums for just about everyone. We'll have better access, we'll end up paying less when we do need medical care, but the total net cost will be the same. It will just be distributed about more.

you know what though. I guarantee you won't give a **** when you are rolled in for that bypass surgery, and your bill on discharge is a small deductible.

I only hope your country, and more importantly, your politicians, have the balls, the courage, to get a decent health care bill/option/plan through.

TAM

boooeee · 19th August 2009, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I don't think the claim is that the people disrupting town hall meetings are part of some corporate conspiracy. I think instead, the misinformation is being fed (in part) from the insurance companies to very sympathetic political ~~hacks~~ commentators, and the people disrupting the meetings are mostly buying the lies those people are repeating.

There's pretty strong evidence that this is indeed what's going on.

In addition to that, there's also the overt ad war.

ETA: Just got caught up and realized that Praktik made largely this same point but much more eloquently.

There's a lot of opposition to healthcare reform, but I guess my overall point is that it's not the insurance companies driving the opposition. Why would they? The key element of the reform is a law that forces people to buy their product.

Just because insurance companies opposed different reforms in the past doesn't mean they are opposing reform now. And I still don't see any "strong evidence" that insurance companies are funding these PR firms to do their dirty work for them. In fact, I don't see any evidence of that at all.

JoeTheJuggler · 19th August 2009, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by boooeee

There's a lot of opposition to healthcare reform, but I guess my overall point is that it's not the insurance companies driving the opposition. Why would they? The key element of the reform is a law that forces people to buy their product.

That's one element in some of the proposals. Most of the proposals also include outlawing per-term and lifetime caps on benefits; most of them would forbid them excluding pre-existing conditions; most would forbid insurers canceling coverage following a claim; some of them include expansions of Medicaid and a public insurance option; etc.

This article says that health insurance companies have been airing ads on the debate. (Do you suppose they're in favor of the reforms Obama wants?)

This article points out that while health insurance companies tend to underpay claims, they're shelling out huge sums in political contributions.

Quote:

Just because insurance companies opposed different reforms in the past doesn't mean they are opposing reform now.

You think maybe they've had a change of heart and realized that don't need to make as much money as they do?

I think they're willing to accept the inevitable (the stuff about pre-existing conditions and covering everyone), so it's better for them to make it sound like it's something they're in support of. (Again, right this minute, the insurance quotes I'm looking at still exclude pre-existing conditions at least for a time--like 6 months.)

I agree they're happy with the proposal for a universal mandate (that everyone has to have insurance), but they're not at all happy with a public option or expanding Medicaid to cover many of the currently uninsured.

Here's an article that looks at the claims made by an insurance industry spokesperson.

ETA: In June, a House committee held hearings with insurance industry representatives on the topic of canceling coverage when people get expensively sick ("rescission"). All the transcripts are here. This memo (pdf) summarizes the committee's findings.

17th August 2009, 12:24 PM	#1
Vic Vega Muse Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 593	How the insurance companies are playing healthcare reform opponents for fools "The most vocal folks at the town hall meetings seem to share the same ideology as my kinfolks in East Tennessee and my former CIGNA buddy: the less government involvement in our lives, the better. That point couldn't have been made clearer than by the man standing in line to get free care at Remote Area Medical's recent health care "expedition" at the Wise County, Virginia, fairgrounds, who told a reporter he was dead set against President Obama's reform proposal. Even though he didn't have health insurance, and could see the desperation in the faces of thousands of others all around him who were in similar straits, he was more worried about the possibility of having to pay more taxes than he was eager to make sure he and his neighbors wouldn't have to wait in line to get care provided by volunteer doctors in animal stalls." "So the next time you hear someone warning against a "government takeover" of our health care system, or that the creation of a public health insurance option would send us down the "slippery slope toward socialism," know that someone like I used to be wrote those terms, knowing it might turn many of the very people who would benefit most from meaningful reform into unwitting spokespeople for the industry." http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/...nce/index.html
Vic Vega Muse Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 593	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

17th August 2009, 02:26 PM	#4
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 19,385	Originally Posted by T.A.M. Here is what is really insane. If you listed a top ten of what people would wish their taxes would go to pay, I am willing to bet health care would be one of them. Exactly. If the right-wingers who like to dredge up the British complaints about the NHS read to the end, they'd find that the complainants don't want the NHS to be abolished and a US-style system to take its place, they want the government to spend more of their taxes on it!!!! Almost every single time you hear complaints about the NHS, the line is something like, please stop spending so much money on Trident and on screwing up people's lives in Iraq, and spend it on US! Rolfe.
	__________________ "The thing about medicine is, that it all comes down to the numbers." - Dr. Stephen Franklin, Interludes and Examinations. "To give Rolfe his due, I think this is a good example to everyone of what can happen if we fail to get a proper diagnosis and begin treating on symptoms alone--a big mistake, as shown here." - "Snoopy" on H'pathy Forums, apparently abjuring the very fundamentals of homoeopathy after she'd just allowed a young mother with Addison's disease to die.

17th August 2009, 03:10 PM	#5
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,989	You guys are making too much sense on this thread. Where's someone to come along and start spouting some nonsense?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

17th August 2009, 03:12 PM	#6
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	Obama wants to use tax money to kill old people!!
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

17th August 2009, 03:21 PM	#7
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,989	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Obama wants to use tax money to kill old people!! Thank you!
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

17th August 2009, 12:41 PM	#2
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	Author of the piece, Wendell Porter, interviewed here.
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	__________________ "It must be very strange to be President Bush. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile." - John Hinderaker, Powerline

17th August 2009, 12:58 PM	#3
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 18,122	Here is what is really insane. If you listed a top ten of what people would wish their taxes would go to pay, I am willing to bet health care would be one of them. TAM
	__________________ "Angry Young Man!" - The truth movement in a phrase, by O&A "His fists in the air, his head in the sand" - Angry Young Man, Billy Joel An English Professor that knew 9/11 from the Truth Movement quotes would conclude that hyperbole, simile, and metaphor caused the towers to collapse. - BigAl

17th August 2009, 03:29 PM	#8
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 18,122	American: We voted for Obama, because we wanted change. Canadian: Ok, well maybe you should get him to make health care available for all of you. American: ** that. I **ing hate government. NIMBY!!! NIMBY!!! Canadian: (Raises eyebrows, shakes head, and carries on with what he was doing). TAM
	__________________ "Angry Young Man!" - The truth movement in a phrase, by O&A "His fists in the air, his head in the sand" - Angry Young Man, Billy Joel An English Professor that knew 9/11 from the Truth Movement quotes would conclude that hyperbole, simile, and metaphor caused the towers to collapse. - BigAl

17th August 2009, 04:34 PM	#9
tyr_13 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,018	But you don't understand! Private industry has always done everything better than government. Err, I mean, people who don't have insurance have only themselves to blame... Or, umm, I mean... Oh! It doesn't work in other countries! Well fine, it works great in other countries... but they have to pay more! Except that they don't.... Maybe I'm too close to Canada, but this really shouldn't surprise anyone. I like the free market, but I like it to have rules that protect people.
tyr_13 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,018	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Look at the puppy...the puppy is good.

17th August 2009, 10:03 PM	#10
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Does anybody have links substantiating the notion that health insurance companies are the ones funding and/or encouraging the vocal anti-reform people at the town hall meetings? The commentary linked in the OP doesn't provide much.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

17th August 2009, 10:08 PM	#11
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=FreedomWorks
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

17th August 2009, 10:28 PM	#12
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=FreedomWorks Not a single mention of health insurance companies on that site.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

17th August 2009, 10:36 PM	#13
tyr_13 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,018	Originally Posted by boooeee Does anybody have links substantiating the notion that health insurance companies are the ones funding and/or encouraging the vocal anti-reform people at the town hall meetings? The commentary linked in the OP doesn't provide much. Did you read the article in the link? It's an industry whistle blower whose job it was to do such things.
tyr_13 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,018	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Look at the puppy...the puppy is good.

17th August 2009, 10:37 PM	#14
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	http://pharmagossip.blogspot.com/200...ealthcare.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32454754
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

17th August 2009, 10:49 PM	#15
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Did you read the article in the link? It's an industry whistle blower whose job it was to do such things. Yep. The evidence he provided was in regards to health insurance opposition to prior reform efforts (Patients Bill of Rights, Clinton Era Reform, etc.). As far as I can tell, the industry is mostly on board with the reform efforts being proposed today.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

17th August 2009, 10:52 PM	#16
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken http://pharmagossip.blogspot.com/200...ealthcare.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32454754 Video links. Very helpful.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

17th August 2009, 11:00 PM	#17
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken http://pharmagossip.blogspot.com/200...ealthcare.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32454754 Just watched the entire 7 minute Rachel Maddow link. Excellent report. Not one mention of insurance companies. I'm not gonna bother with your other video link.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

17th August 2009, 11:14 PM	#18
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	I like how you look at the evidence and simply dismiss it without any regard to the facts. I guess that's just a bit too harsh. It seems that it's other big corporations that are fueling the anti-health reform lies and misconceptions. It certainly is not a grass-roots effort.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine Last edited by thaiboxerken; 17th August 2009 at 11:20 PM.

17th August 2009, 11:21 PM	#19
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	Originally Posted by boooeee Not a single mention of health insurance companies on that site. One of the board of directors is a health care executive.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

17th August 2009, 11:26 PM	#20
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/28/cppr-dci-astroturf/
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

18th August 2009, 12:51 AM	#21
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I like how you look at the evidence and simply dismiss it without any regard to the facts. I guess that's just a bit too harsh. It seems that it's other big corporations that are fueling the anti-health reform lies and misconceptions. It certainly is not a grass-roots effort. There's plenty of disingenuous astro-turfing going on. But it doesn't seem to be the insurance companies, despite what is being claimed in the OP.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

18th August 2009, 05:07 AM	#22
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 18,122	Originally Posted by boooeee There's plenty of disingenuous astro-turfing going on. But it doesn't seem to be the insurance companies, despite what is being claimed in the OP. The insurance companies are to smart to have their hands DIRECTLY dirtied by this issue. Have you noticed their sweet little commercials on TV supporting universal coverage, supporting doing away with "pre-existing conditions" clauses. Take it from a doctor (albeit a Canadian one), the health insurance industry DOES NOT want to get rid of "pre-existing health conditions" clauses. Publicly they are either remaining silent, or pretending to be the good guys. TAM
	__________________ "Angry Young Man!" - The truth movement in a phrase, by O&A "His fists in the air, his head in the sand" - Angry Young Man, Billy Joel An English Professor that knew 9/11 from the Truth Movement quotes would conclude that hyperbole, simile, and metaphor caused the towers to collapse. - BigAl

18th August 2009, 05:23 AM	#23
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,805	Originally Posted by T.A.M. Take it from a doctor (albeit a Canadian one), the health insurance industry DOES NOT want to get rid of "pre-existing health conditions" clauses. What the health insurance industry has proposed -- and something that IMHO actually makes sense -- is that they would be fine with getting rid of pre-existing conditions clauses if health insurance was mandatory (a bit of an oddly socialistic proposal from an otherwise capitalistic group). Whether this is a genuine proposal is perhaps another matter, but it is a proposal, nonetheless. The reality of the system today is that it makes no sense for health insurance companies to not have pre-existing condition clauses. If those clauses didn't exist, people would simply buy insurance when they got sick, and then drop it when they got better (it would be like buying an auto insurance policy after you rear-ended somebody and then expected the insurance company to pay for it). If you simply get rid of pre-existing condition clauses without doing anything else to fix that basic problem, it doesn't make sense. Hence why the system itself needs an overhaul.

18th August 2009, 05:32 AM	#24
DC Formerly The Dictator Cheney Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Helvetia Posts: 8,407	health insurance has to be mandatory
	__________________ "Creation Science 101"

18th August 2009, 05:39 AM	#25
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,805	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken One of the board of directors is a health care executive. That's a bit disingenuous. He was talking about health insurance, and the person you are referring to (as far as I can tell) is Robert J. Stephenson, the CEO of the Cancer Treatment Centers of America -- a group of hospitals. Not the same industry. It is a valid point, though, that for all the focus on health insurance companies, there are a heck of a lot of other very wealthy industries involved in healthcare that are trying to influence things (including hospitals, big pharma, doctors, etc.). It does note that Express Scripts, which is a pharmacy benefit manager/pharmaceutical distributor (a related, but not the same, industry as health insurance) has been involved with FreedomWorks.

18th August 2009, 05:43 AM	#26
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by boooeee Just watched the entire 7 minute Rachel Maddow link. Excellent report. Not one mention of insurance companies. I'm not gonna bother with your other video link. You could read the transcript of the interview I posted in post #2, if the video version is not conforming to your media-type filter..
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	__________________ "It must be very strange to be President Bush. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile." - John Hinderaker, Powerline

18th August 2009, 07:41 AM	#27
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by Praktik You could read the transcript of the interview I posted in post #2, if the video version is not conforming to your media-type filter.. Is there any evidence presented in the transcript which substantiates the claim made in the OP: "How the insurance companies are playing healthcare reform opponents for fools". Specifically, that health insurance companies are the ones behind the current vitriolic protests and attach ads opposing healthcare reform.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

18th August 2009, 08:23 AM	#28
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	I think the point of the article, written by a guy whose job it was to shape PR for the insurance industry, was that these kinds of protests at the town halls and so on are really lifting the PR language of the industry. The evidence is in the words they use. Now this is not an overt, top-down, "you guys go here and say this stuff" kind of thing, and I'm not sure anyone is alleging that. Its about messaging, and when people are carrying your exact message to these town halls, its evidence that your PR machine is working quite well. Your friendlies in the media are receptive to your press releases and your personal contacts. They repeat your message on-air and in their columns. The public who trust these figures than take the xerox and and repeat the carefully shaped "facts". Nothing is direct. And it would be foolish to say that ALL these protesters at the town halls are buying into this messaging, or that there aren't other factors at play here including genuine concern over the defecit, and higher taxes - but the point is that among all these factors, there is a chain that leads back to the PR machines behind the industries affected. I would urge you to read the full article and either read the transcript or view the interview I posted, and get out of the dichotomoy of "is the industry directly organizing these protests or not", because if that's your focus then you're missing the point.
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	__________________ "It must be very strange to be President Bush. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile." - John Hinderaker, Powerline Last edited by Praktik; 18th August 2009 at 08:26 AM.

18th August 2009, 10:07 AM	#29
Newtons Bit Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,612	Originally Posted by T.A.M. Here is what is really insane. If you listed a top ten of what people would wish their taxes would go to pay, I am willing to bet health care would be one of them. TAM It would definitely be on mine. Or at least on an individual states top-10 expenditures. However, the current Obamacare plan is going to raise health-care premiums for just about everyone. We'll have better access, we'll end up paying less when we do need medical care, but the total net cost will be the same. It will just be distributed about more.
	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

18th August 2009, 10:27 AM	#30
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,989	Originally Posted by boooeee Does anybody have links substantiating the notion that health insurance companies are the ones funding and/or encouraging the vocal anti-reform people at the town hall meetings? The commentary linked in the OP doesn't provide much. I don't think the claim is that the people disrupting town hall meetings are part of some corporate conspiracy. I think instead, the misinformation is being fed (in part) from the insurance companies to very sympathetic political ~~hacks~~ commentators, and the people disrupting the meetings are mostly buying the lies those people are repeating. There's pretty strong evidence that this is indeed what's going on. In addition to that, there's also the overt ad war. ETA: Just got caught up and realized that Praktik made largely this same point but much more eloquently.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 18th August 2009 at 10:28 AM.

18th August 2009, 02:52 PM	#31
T.A.M. Keeper of the Kool-Vax Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Far East...of Canada Posts: 18,122	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit It would definitely be on mine. Or at least on an individual states top-10 expenditures. However, the current Obamacare plan is going to raise health-care premiums for just about everyone. We'll have better access, we'll end up paying less when we do need medical care, but the total net cost will be the same. It will just be distributed about more. you know what though. I guarantee you won't give a **** when you are rolled in for that bypass surgery, and your bill on discharge is a small deductible. I only hope your country, and more importantly, your politicians, have the balls, the courage, to get a decent health care bill/option/plan through. TAM
	__________________ "Angry Young Man!" - The truth movement in a phrase, by O&A "His fists in the air, his head in the sand" - Angry Young Man, Billy Joel An English Professor that knew 9/11 from the Truth Movement quotes would conclude that hyperbole, simile, and metaphor caused the towers to collapse. - BigAl

19th August 2009, 07:58 AM	#32
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I don't think the claim is that the people disrupting town hall meetings are part of some corporate conspiracy. I think instead, the misinformation is being fed (in part) from the insurance companies to very sympathetic political ~~hacks~~ commentators, and the people disrupting the meetings are mostly buying the lies those people are repeating. There's pretty strong evidence that this is indeed what's going on. In addition to that, there's also the overt ad war. ETA: Just got caught up and realized that Praktik made largely this same point but much more eloquently. There's a lot of opposition to healthcare reform, but I guess my overall point is that it's not the insurance companies driving the opposition. Why would they? The key element of the reform is a law that forces people to buy their product. Just because insurance companies opposed different reforms in the past doesn't mean they are opposing reform now. And I still don't see any "strong evidence" that insurance companies are funding these PR firms to do their dirty work for them. In fact, I don't see any evidence of that at all.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

19th August 2009, 08:32 AM	#33
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,989	Originally Posted by boooeee There's a lot of opposition to healthcare reform, but I guess my overall point is that it's not the insurance companies driving the opposition. Why would they? The key element of the reform is a law that forces people to buy their product. That's one element in some of the proposals. Most of the proposals also include outlawing per-term and lifetime caps on benefits; most of them would forbid them excluding pre-existing conditions; most would forbid insurers canceling coverage following a claim; some of them include expansions of Medicaid and a public insurance option; etc. This article says that health insurance companies have been airing ads on the debate. (Do you suppose they're in favor of the reforms Obama wants?) This article points out that while health insurance companies tend to underpay claims, they're shelling out huge sums in political contributions. Quote: Just because insurance companies opposed different reforms in the past doesn't mean they are opposing reform now. You think maybe they've had a change of heart and realized that don't need to make as much money as they do? I think they're willing to accept the inevitable (the stuff about pre-existing conditions and covering everyone), so it's better for them to make it sound like it's something they're in support of. (Again, right this minute, the insurance quotes I'm looking at still exclude pre-existing conditions at least for a time--like 6 months.) I agree they're happy with the proposal for a universal mandate (that everyone has to have insurance), but they're not at all happy with a public option or expanding Medicaid to cover many of the currently uninsured. Here's an article that looks at the claims made by an insurance industry spokesperson. ETA: In June, a House committee held hearings with insurance industry representatives on the topic of canceling coverage when people get expensively sick ("rescission"). All the transcripts are here. This memo (pdf) summarizes the committee's findings.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 19th August 2009 at 08:50 AM.