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Puppycow · 30th August 2009, 02:42 AM

This video brought up the question in my mind of how scientific polygraph tests really are. I'm just a layperson with no expertise, but I'm very skeptical about polygraph tests.

Does anyone know more about them, and what do you think of this news report?

Dr. Imago · 30th August 2009, 02:46 AM

You mean the "poly-laugh" test?

There is already a cornucopia of discussion of this subject on this forum. Maybe some enterprising forum member can point you in the right direction.

In summary, it's one of those "lose-lose" types of tests that ascribes meaning, namely lying, to specific physiological changes that can occur during intense questioning. And, if you don't express those physiologic changes, many people will still simply believe you are still lying and somehow "beat" the test.

In other words, the polygraph ultimately proves nothing.

~Dr. Imago

Puppycow · 30th August 2009, 03:07 AM

If that's the case, then what a terrible report.

The guy even admits that the results depend on who administers the test. That's a huge red flag to me right there, in addition to what you said.

And here's the criteria he claims which makes him believe in this particular guy: some people have passed and others have failed his tests. Beyond some kind of vague sense of trust in this guy's reputation, there is no objective rationale. Maybe she is guilty and maybe not, and maybe she was dumb or ignorant for asking to be tested, but she's basically being tried and convicted in the court of public opinion on the basis of this polygraph test.

Aitch · 30th August 2009, 06:07 AM

IIRC polygraph test results are not acceptable in court in the US or the UK. Which would suggest that they are not that reliable.

Oh, and Aldrich Ames passed two polygraph tests.

Bikewer · 30th August 2009, 06:46 AM

Most police officers who are familiar with the test will say things like "It's all the operator."

They know that the best operators are skilled at observing the often-obvious personal quirks and "tells" of the subject.
Some years ago, 60 Minutes did a segment where they set up a phony camera shop and hired three different private lie-detector outfits to ferret out the "criminal" who was stealing from the shop.
In each case, the operator was told...."We're not sure, but we think it's George."
In all cases, "George" was found to be deceptive...

sol invictus · 30th August 2009, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Some years ago, 60 Minutes did a segment where they set up a phony camera shop and hired three different private lie-detector outfits to ferret out the "criminal" who was stealing from the shop.
In each case, the operator was told...."We're not sure, but we think it's George."
In all cases, "George" was found to be deceptive...

If it was a "phony" shop, how could George not have been deceptive?

The Man · 30th August 2009, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by sol invictus

If it was a "phony" shop, how could George not have been deceptive?

Indeed, but then so would everyone else in the "phony" shop. So what would single out George? Were the others found to be deceptive as well?

bokonon · 30th August 2009, 03:45 PM

I think it's possible a polygraph would be useful in a situation where there is information that's only available to the police and to people connected with the crime. If someone was killed with an unusual poison, for example, asking the question "How much do you know about [this unusual poison]" might elicit a reaction in the murderer, but not in an ordinary Joe off the street.

I also think false positives are unavoidable, and it's possible for guilty people to train themselves to beat the polygraph.

Fnord · 30th August 2009, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Most police officers who are familiar with the test will say things like "It's all the operator." They know that the best operators are skilled at observing the often-obvious personal quirks and "tells" of the subject...

.
It's also how capable the operator is at intimidating the subject into a physical response whenever certain key questions are asked. It has to do with tone of voice, cadence, body language, and other other "Alpha-Male" signals the operator displays to the subject.

For example, I have taken polygraph tests for various reasons. During each one, I was told to maintain eye contact with the operator. I caught ever micro-twitch, every sneer, every sigh, and every shake of his head - none of which were noticed by any of the others in he room.

It was either that I was raised by an alcoholic father and learned to keep my reactions under control or that I have Asperger's Syndrome that prevented me from responding to the operator's tics. I passed each test, even though I was still considered a "person of interest" in each case long after the actual perps were arrested, tried, and convicted. This is one of the reasons I don't live in the Midwest any more.

(A little explanation is in order here. My brothers and cousins were juvenile delinquents and adult criminals, and I was considered "guilty by relation" by many people. My lawyers told me that the operators were just trying to get somebody to confess to something in order to better their reputations with law enforcement.)

Polygraph Machines are nothing more than tools of intimidation, used on people that may (or may not) actually be guilty in order to coerce a confession, or at least some incriminating "evidence."

shandyjan · 30th August 2009, 04:37 PM

Have any of you ever felt that reaction to a question, where you are innocent, but just the question makes you react funny...almost as though you are guilty? That happens to me, I wonder if that would give a guilty verdict for me, even though I was innocent?

ponderingturtle · 31st August 2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Imago

You mean the "poly-laugh" test?

There is already a cornucopia of discussion of this subject on this forum. Maybe some enterprising forum member can point you in the right direction.

In summary, it's one of those "lose-lose" types of tests that ascribes meaning, namely lying, to specific physiological changes that can occur during intense questioning. And, if you don't express those physiologic changes, many people will still simply believe you are still lying and somehow "beat" the test.

In other words, the polygraph ultimately proves nothing.

~Dr. Imago

Depends on what you are looking for. It is not terribly useful for determining truth or lie, but it does measure a number of responces that can be useful measurements for other things. Say measuring stress durring various kinds of exam to correlate it to exam performance, or determining if someone is having an orgasm.

NoZed Avenger · 31st August 2009, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Depends on what you are looking for. It is not terribly useful for determining truth or lie, but it does measure a number of responces that can be useful measurements for other things. Say measuring stress durring various kinds of exam to correlate it to exam performance, or determining if someone is having an orgasm.

How do I enroll in that class and how many exams are offered?

MortFurd · 31st August 2009, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger

How do I enroll in that class and how many exams are offered?

Ask your wife or girlfriend. The number and frequency of the exams depends on how well you perform. Poor performance leads to disinterest on the part of the examee. Stellar performance tends to leave them incapable of a rapid retest. You'll want to restrict your perfomance level to something mid-range in order to maximize the number of exams you can take.

Fnord · 31st August 2009, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by shandyjan

Have any of you ever felt that reaction to a question, where you are innocent, but just the question makes you react funny ... almost as though you are guilty?

.
What do you mean?

I never had sex with that woman!

Singularitarian · 31st August 2009, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

This video brought up the question in my mind of how scientific polygraph tests really are. I'm just a layperson with no expertise, but I'm very skeptical about polygraph tests.

Does anyone know more about them, and what do you think of this news report?

From what i recall, polygraph tests are quite accurate, to 98%. The accuracy should be well known to me, i love morning talk shows see. They love to use polygraph tests to out the lies.

scratchy · 31st August 2009, 08:36 AM

I remember the tv-aired polygraph test of the guy who was the long time suspect of the murder of Swedens prime minister Olof Palme 1986. He was first sentenced, later aquitted, mainly because of a botched up witness confrontation. To a lot of swedes he was always the guy who killed Palme and got away with it. A few years after he was freed one of the commercial channels in sweden offered him a polygraph test, aired live. He passed without problem. The reporter then asked him the hypothetical question, if he would have been guilty, would he still be able to pass the test anyway? He answered without hesitation: Yes, definitely!

NoZed Avenger · 31st August 2009, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by MortFurd

Ask your wife or girlfriend.

If I could, I wouldn't need the class.

shandyjan · 31st August 2009, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

.
What do you mean?

I never had sex with that woman!

Well....I wonder what the polygraph would have said to that question?Depends what he said was sex and what he believed was sex really. Id have failed by saying I never had sex with that woman, go figure!

BobK · 1st September 2009, 12:18 AM

I believe this link has been posted in other discussions.

arthwollipot · 1st September 2009, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by scratchy

I remember the tv-aired polygraph test of the guy who was the long time suspect of the murder of Swedens prime minister Olof Palme 1986. He was first sentenced, later aquitted, mainly because of a botched up witness confrontation. To a lot of swedes he was always the guy who killed Palme and got away with it. A few years after he was freed one of the commercial channels in sweden offered him a polygraph test, aired live. He passed without problem. The reporter then asked him the hypothetical question, if he would have been guilty, would he still be able to pass the test anyway? He answered without hesitation: Yes, definitely!

I know of at least two methods of fooling a polygraph. I presume there are more.

30th August 2009, 02:42 AM	#1
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 16,014	Polygraph tests This video brought up the question in my mind of how scientific polygraph tests really are. I'm just a layperson with no expertise, but I'm very skeptical about polygraph tests. Does anyone know more about them, and what do you think of this news report?
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

30th August 2009, 02:46 AM	#2
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,055	You mean the "poly-laugh" test? There is already a cornucopia of discussion of this subject on this forum. Maybe some enterprising forum member can point you in the right direction. In summary, it's one of those "lose-lose" types of tests that ascribes meaning, namely lying, to specific physiological changes that can occur during intense questioning. And, if you don't express those physiologic changes, many people will still simply believe you are still lying and somehow "beat" the test. In other words, the polygraph ultimately proves nothing. ~Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,055	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

30th August 2009, 03:07 AM	#3
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 16,014	If that's the case, then what a terrible report. The guy even admits that the results depend on who administers the test. That's a huge red flag to me right there, in addition to what you said. And here's the criteria he claims which makes him believe in this particular guy: some people have passed and others have failed his tests. Beyond some kind of vague sense of trust in this guy's reputation, there is no objective rationale. Maybe she is guilty and maybe not, and maybe she was dumb or ignorant for asking to be tested, but she's basically being tried and convicted in the court of public opinion on the basis of this polygraph test.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

30th August 2009, 07:01 AM	#7
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 7,577	Originally Posted by sol invictus If it was a "phony" shop, how could George not have been deceptive? Indeed, but then so would everyone else in the "phony" shop. So what would single out George? Were the others found to be deceptive as well?
	__________________ "Not a seat but a springboard” (1942 Winston Churchill) "As he who, seeking asses, found a kingdom" (1671 Milton "Paradise Regained") "for it seem'd A void was made in nature, all her bonds Crack'd; and I saw the flaring atom-streams And torrents of her myriad universe, Ruining along the illimitable inane, Fly on to clash together again, and make Another and another frame of things For ever." (1868 Tennyson "Lucretius")

30th August 2009, 03:45 PM	#8
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,444	I think it's possible a polygraph would be useful in a situation where there is information that's only available to the police and to people connected with the crime. If someone was killed with an unusual poison, for example, asking the question "How much do you know about [this unusual poison]" might elicit a reaction in the murderer, but not in an ordinary Joe off the street. I also think false positives are unavoidable, and it's possible for guilty people to train themselves to beat the polygraph.
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,444	__________________ Laugh while you can, monkey boy.

30th August 2009, 06:07 AM	#4
Aitch Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: StAines Posts: 2,731	IIRC polygraph test results are not acceptable in court in the US or the UK. Which would suggest that they are not that reliable. Oh, and Aldrich Ames passed two polygraph tests.

30th August 2009, 06:46 AM	#5
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,612	Most police officers who are familiar with the test will say things like "It's all the operator." They know that the best operators are skilled at observing the often-obvious personal quirks and "tells" of the subject. Some years ago, 60 Minutes did a segment where they set up a phony camera shop and hired three different private lie-detector outfits to ferret out the "criminal" who was stealing from the shop. In each case, the operator was told...."We're not sure, but we think it's George." In all cases, "George" was found to be deceptive...

30th August 2009, 06:54 AM	#6
sol invictus Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Nova Roma Posts: 8,434	Originally Posted by Bikewer Some years ago, 60 Minutes did a segment where they set up a phony camera shop and hired three different private lie-detector outfits to ferret out the "criminal" who was stealing from the shop. In each case, the operator was told...."We're not sure, but we think it's George." In all cases, "George" was found to be deceptive... If it was a "phony" shop, how could George not have been deceptive?

30th August 2009, 04:25 PM	#9
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Bikewer Most police officers who are familiar with the test will say things like "It's all the operator." They know that the best operators are skilled at observing the often-obvious personal quirks and "tells" of the subject... . It's also how capable the operator is at intimidating the subject into a physical response whenever certain key questions are asked. It has to do with tone of voice, cadence, body language, and other other "Alpha-Male" signals the operator displays to the subject. For example, I have taken polygraph tests for various reasons. During each one, I was told to maintain eye contact with the operator. I caught ever micro-twitch, every sneer, every sigh, and every shake of his head - none of which were noticed by any of the others in he room. It was either that I was raised by an alcoholic father and learned to keep my reactions under control or that I have Asperger's Syndrome that prevented me from responding to the operator's tics. I passed each test, even though I was still considered a "person of interest" in each case long after the actual perps were arrested, tried, and convicted. This is one of the reasons I don't live in the Midwest any more. (A little explanation is in order here. My brothers and cousins were juvenile delinquents and adult criminals, and I was considered "guilty by relation" by many people. My lawyers told me that the operators were just trying to get somebody to confess to something in order to better their reputations with law enforcement.) Polygraph Machines are nothing more than tools of intimidation, used on people that may (or may not) actually be guilty in order to coerce a confession, or at least some incriminating "evidence."
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

30th August 2009, 04:37 PM	#10
shandyjan Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 2,111	Have any of you ever felt that reaction to a question, where you are innocent, but just the question makes you react funny...almost as though you are guilty? That happens to me, I wonder if that would give a guilty verdict for me, even though I was innocent?

31st August 2009, 07:20 AM	#11
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,547	Originally Posted by Dr. Imago You mean the "poly-laugh" test? There is already a cornucopia of discussion of this subject on this forum. Maybe some enterprising forum member can point you in the right direction. In summary, it's one of those "lose-lose" types of tests that ascribes meaning, namely lying, to specific physiological changes that can occur during intense questioning. And, if you don't express those physiologic changes, many people will still simply believe you are still lying and somehow "beat" the test. In other words, the polygraph ultimately proves nothing. ~Dr. Imago Depends on what you are looking for. It is not terribly useful for determining truth or lie, but it does measure a number of responces that can be useful measurements for other things. Say measuring stress durring various kinds of exam to correlate it to exam performance, or determining if someone is having an orgasm.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

31st August 2009, 07:33 AM	#12
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Depends on what you are looking for. It is not terribly useful for determining truth or lie, but it does measure a number of responces that can be useful measurements for other things. Say measuring stress durring various kinds of exam to correlate it to exam performance, or determining if someone is having an orgasm. How do I enroll in that class and how many exams are offered?
	__________________ [This Space Available. PM for Rates.]

31st August 2009, 08:12 AM	#13
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger How do I enroll in that class and how many exams are offered? Ask your wife or girlfriend. The number and frequency of the exams depends on how well you perform. Poor performance leads to disinterest on the part of the examee. Stellar performance tends to leave them incapable of a rapid retest. You'll want to restrict your perfomance level to something mid-range in order to maximize the number of exams you can take.
	__________________ Ace Baker gets pwned by Shrinker, and I get an Avatar.

31st August 2009, 08:23 AM	#14
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by shandyjan Have any of you ever felt that reaction to a question, where you are innocent, but just the question makes you react funny ... almost as though you are guilty? . What do you mean? I never had sex with that woman!
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

31st August 2009, 08:30 AM	#15
Singularitarian Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,008	Originally Posted by Puppycow This video brought up the question in my mind of how scientific polygraph tests really are. I'm just a layperson with no expertise, but I'm very skeptical about polygraph tests. Does anyone know more about them, and what do you think of this news report? From what i recall, polygraph tests are quite accurate, to 98%. The accuracy should be well known to me, i love morning talk shows see. They love to use polygraph tests to out the lies.
Singularitarian Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,008

31st August 2009, 08:36 AM	#16
scratchy Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In the happy state of denial Posts: 607	I remember the tv-aired polygraph test of the guy who was the long time suspect of the murder of Swedens prime minister Olof Palme 1986. He was first sentenced, later aquitted, mainly because of a botched up witness confrontation. To a lot of swedes he was always the guy who killed Palme and got away with it. A few years after he was freed one of the commercial channels in sweden offered him a polygraph test, aired live. He passed without problem. The reporter then asked him the hypothetical question, if he would have been guilty, would he still be able to pass the test anyway? He answered without hesitation: Yes, definitely!
	Last edited by scratchy; 31st August 2009 at 08:37 AM.

31st August 2009, 08:36 AM	#17
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Originally Posted by MortFurd Ask your wife or girlfriend. If I could, I wouldn't need the class.
	__________________ [This Space Available. PM for Rates.]

31st August 2009, 02:06 PM	#18
shandyjan Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by Fnord . What do you mean? I never had sex with that woman! Well....I wonder what the polygraph would have said to that question?Depends what he said was sex and what he believed was sex really. Id have failed by saying I never had sex with that woman, go figure!
	__________________ Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's A dog is for life, not just for xmas!

1st September 2009, 12:18 AM	#19
BobK Muse Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: State of confusion Posts: 916	I believe this link has been posted in other discussions.
	__________________ A mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.

1st September 2009, 12:21 AM	#20
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,242	Originally Posted by scratchy I remember the tv-aired polygraph test of the guy who was the long time suspect of the murder of Swedens prime minister Olof Palme 1986. He was first sentenced, later aquitted, mainly because of a botched up witness confrontation. To a lot of swedes he was always the guy who killed Palme and got away with it. A few years after he was freed one of the commercial channels in sweden offered him a polygraph test, aired live. He passed without problem. The reporter then asked him the hypothetical question, if he would have been guilty, would he still be able to pass the test anyway? He answered without hesitation: Yes, definitely! I know of at least two methods of fooling a polygraph. I presume there are more.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.