Religious-Secular Divide in Jerusalem

Puppycow · 3rd September 2009, 01:51 AM

Interesting story

Makes me wonder about Israel's future.

Quote:

This summer, radical elements of the ultra-Orthodox community have been demonstrating and rioting against city authorities, welfare officials and the police. For Jerusalem’s mayor, Nir Barkat, a secular high-tech millionaire trying to attract more business, tourism and professional types to the city, the timing has been inopportune, to say the least.

The tensions in this contested city usually run along an east-west, Jewish-Palestinian divide. But within the western, predominantly Jewish, section of the city, the cultural fault lines between religious and secular Jews run deep. Any change in the delicate status quo seems capable of setting off a riot, as Jerusalem’s most zealous Jews and liberals vie for the city’s character and soul.

“It is all part of the special human mosaic that makes up Jerusalem,” said Israel Kimhi, a director of the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies, an independent research organization here. But the recent turmoil “does not do much for the image of the city,” he added, arguing that a small but strident section of the ultra-Orthodox population has grown increasingly extreme.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as haredim, or those who fear God, went to battle in years past to ensure observation of the Jewish Sabbath, and tried to force the closing of movie theaters and roads. From sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, strictly observant Jews do not work, use electric devices, spend money or drive. There are no municipal services during the Sabbath in Jerusalem, and on the Jewish side most businesses are closed.

. . .

The ultra-Orthodox make up about a third of Jerusalem’s Jewish population, and the adherents of the Eda Haredit are only a fraction of that. But with an average of 10 children per family, Mr. Kraus said, the community is growing fast.

The rabbinic sects of the Eda Haredit are the scions of Orthodox Jews who were in Palestine before the foundation of Israel in 1948. In the absence of the Messiah, they fervently reject Zionism and the legitimacy of the Jewish state.

The protesters called the police “Nazis” and spat at them. Special Force police officers dumped troublemakers into the fragrant rosemary and lavender bushes along the sidewalk. Protesters who tried to block the road were sprayed with pepper gas and carried off in a prison service van.

. . .

The Eda Haredit has also rallied around one of its members this summer, a mother who was arrested on suspicion of starving her 3-year-old son. Her supporters rioted in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods and set fire to a local welfare office where she had met with social workers before being detained.

Fierce riots broke out on Sunday night after the police entered a central ultra-Orthodox neighborhood to remove the body of a murder victim from a hostel. The riot seemed to have more to do with a general hatred of the police than the killing itself, which did not even involve a member of the ultra-Orthodox community. For the first time, the police used tear gas and stun grenades and fired in the air to disperse the crowds.

The Eda Haredit called the police “murderers,” saying later in a poster that a young yeshiva student had been run over and badly wounded by a vehicle of the “Zionist Gestapo” force.

Violence then broke out again on Tuesday night, when a mob attacked a taxi driven by an Arab driver in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. The driver escaped, though the car was battered.

So, these people have an average of 10 children per family, they "fervently reject Zionism and the legitimacy of the Jewish state," they call the police "Nazis" and attack Arab and secular Israelis for breaking their Sabbath rules, they rally around a woman who starves her child and riot and accuse the police of murder, calling them “Zionist Gestapo” when they are doing their job. Where does this all lead to in the future?

Gord_in_Toronto · 3rd September 2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Interesting story

Makes me wonder about Israel's future.

So, these people have an average of 10 children per family, they "fervently reject Zionism and the legitimacy of the Jewish state," they call the police "Nazis" and attack Arab and secular Israelis for breaking their Sabbath rules, they rally around a woman who starves her child and riot and accuse the police of murder, calling them “Zionist Gestapo” when they are doing their job. Where does this all lead to in the future?

"Where does this all lead to in the future?" God only knows and He ain't telling.

I guess that, if the birth rate trend continues, eventually the ultra-orthodox will be the majority. At this point the end of the state of Israel will soon follow as the ultra-orthodox don't participate in the army.

Puppycow · 3rd September 2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

"Where does this all lead to in the future?" God only knows and He ain't telling.

I guess that, if the birth rate trend continues, eventually the ultra-orthodox will be the majority. At this point the end of the state of Israel will soon follow as the ultra-orthodox don't participate in the army.

Well, Israel could switch to a volunteer army instead, like most other countries.

But will the seculars still want to defend these people, who spit on them and call them Nazis?

Why would secular Jews prefer to live in Israel than the US? (I realize there are other countries too, but most of the world's Jews live in those two countries).

JJM 777 · 4th September 2009, 08:06 AM

Nothing new here. Ever since the state of Israel was created on humanistic/atheistic principles, rather than religious ones, this divide has been evident in Israeli politics and daily life.

There seems to be no possibility of a consensus solution that would satisfy both parties (quite perfectly everything what the religious want is what the liberals don't want, and vide versa), unless these two are divided into autonomous territories where they can do what they want.

bigjelmapro · 18th September 2009, 10:26 AM

Simply put, stop funding these ridiculously large families and they will eventually have less children. This third pillar in a country which they refuse (in all aspects) to acknowledge, freeload from, and contribute nothing to but dissension, violence and rioting should not be supported by the country they exist in. This goes beyond freedom of speech or expression. If they wish to continue living where they are, then embrace Palestine, Jordan, or wherever they choose to live and finally be cut off from Israeli funding.

There's no appeasing these people...

3rd September 2009, 01:51 AM	#1
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 6,323	Religious-Secular Divide in Jerusalem Interesting story Makes me wonder about Israel's future. Quote: This summer, radical elements of the ultra-Orthodox community have been demonstrating and rioting against city authorities, welfare officials and the police. For Jerusalem’s mayor, Nir Barkat, a secular high-tech millionaire trying to attract more business, tourism and professional types to the city, the timing has been inopportune, to say the least. The tensions in this contested city usually run along an east-west, Jewish-Palestinian divide. But within the western, predominantly Jewish, section of the city, the cultural fault lines between religious and secular Jews run deep. Any change in the delicate status quo seems capable of setting off a riot, as Jerusalem’s most zealous Jews and liberals vie for the city’s character and soul. “It is all part of the special human mosaic that makes up Jerusalem,” said Israel Kimhi, a director of the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies, an independent research organization here. But the recent turmoil “does not do much for the image of the city,” he added, arguing that a small but strident section of the ultra-Orthodox population has grown increasingly extreme. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as haredim, or those who fear God, went to battle in years past to ensure observation of the Jewish Sabbath, and tried to force the closing of movie theaters and roads. From sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, strictly observant Jews do not work, use electric devices, spend money or drive. There are no municipal services during the Sabbath in Jerusalem, and on the Jewish side most businesses are closed. . . . The ultra-Orthodox make up about a third of Jerusalem’s Jewish population, and the adherents of the Eda Haredit are only a fraction of that. But with an average of 10 children per family, Mr. Kraus said, the community is growing fast. The rabbinic sects of the Eda Haredit are the scions of Orthodox Jews who were in Palestine before the foundation of Israel in 1948. In the absence of the Messiah, they fervently reject Zionism and the legitimacy of the Jewish state. The protesters called the police “Nazis” and spat at them. Special Force police officers dumped troublemakers into the fragrant rosemary and lavender bushes along the sidewalk. Protesters who tried to block the road were sprayed with pepper gas and carried off in a prison service van. . . . The Eda Haredit has also rallied around one of its members this summer, a mother who was arrested on suspicion of starving her 3-year-old son. Her supporters rioted in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods and set fire to a local welfare office where she had met with social workers before being detained. Fierce riots broke out on Sunday night after the police entered a central ultra-Orthodox neighborhood to remove the body of a murder victim from a hostel. The riot seemed to have more to do with a general hatred of the police than the killing itself, which did not even involve a member of the ultra-Orthodox community. For the first time, the police used tear gas and stun grenades and fired in the air to disperse the crowds. The Eda Haredit called the police “murderers,” saying later in a poster that a young yeshiva student had been run over and badly wounded by a vehicle of the “Zionist Gestapo” force. Violence then broke out again on Tuesday night, when a mob attacked a taxi driven by an Arab driver in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. The driver escaped, though the car was battered. So, these people have an average of 10 children per family, they "fervently reject Zionism and the legitimacy of the Jewish state," they call the police "Nazis" and attack Arab and secular Israelis for breaking their Sabbath rules, they rally around a woman who starves her child and riot and accuse the police of murder, calling them “Zionist Gestapo” when they are doing their job. Where does this all lead to in the future?
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous Religions are God's way of telling us that He doesn't exist. -Pat Condell

3rd September 2009, 11:03 AM	#2
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,168	Originally Posted by Puppycow Interesting story Makes me wonder about Israel's future. So, these people have an average of 10 children per family, they "fervently reject Zionism and the legitimacy of the Jewish state," they call the police "Nazis" and attack Arab and secular Israelis for breaking their Sabbath rules, they rally around a woman who starves her child and riot and accuse the police of murder, calling them “Zionist Gestapo” when they are doing their job. Where does this all lead to in the future? "Where does this all lead to in the future?" God only knows and He ain't telling. I guess that, if the birth rate trend continues, eventually the ultra-orthodox will be the majority. At this point the end of the state of Israel will soon follow as the ultra-orthodox don't participate in the army.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick Now completely free.

3rd September 2009, 07:22 PM	#3
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 6,323	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto "Where does this all lead to in the future?" God only knows and He ain't telling. I guess that, if the birth rate trend continues, eventually the ultra-orthodox will be the majority. At this point the end of the state of Israel will soon follow as the ultra-orthodox don't participate in the army. Well, Israel could switch to a volunteer army instead, like most other countries. But will the seculars still want to defend these people, who spit on them and call them Nazis? Why would secular Jews prefer to live in Israel than the US? (I realize there are other countries too, but most of the world's Jews live in those two countries).
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous Religions are God's way of telling us that He doesn't exist. -Pat Condell

18th September 2009, 10:26 AM	#5
bigjelmapro Muse Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 821	Simply put, stop funding these ridiculously large families and they will eventually have less children. This third pillar in a country which they refuse (in all aspects) to acknowledge, freeload from, and contribute nothing to but dissension, violence and rioting should not be supported by the country they exist in. This goes beyond freedom of speech or expression. If they wish to continue living where they are, then embrace Palestine, Jordan, or wherever they choose to live and finally be cut off from Israeli funding. There's no appeasing these people...
bigjelmapro Muse Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 821

4th September 2009, 08:06 AM	#4
JJM 777 Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 779	Nothing new here. Ever since the state of Israel was created on humanistic/atheistic principles, rather than religious ones, this divide has been evident in Israeli politics and daily life. There seems to be no possibility of a consensus solution that would satisfy both parties (quite perfectly everything what the religious want is what the liberals don't want, and vide versa), unless these two are divided into autonomous territories where they can do what they want.