[Sensitive topic] Victim culpability in rape

CplFerro · 4th September 2009, 04:52 PM

I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession?

Safe-Keeper · 4th September 2009, 04:54 PM

* Safe-Keeper recognizes can of worms he's been through repeatedly before, and leaves thread.

Pure Argent · 4th September 2009, 04:55 PM

Why wouldn't they? They have to go for normal sex. At least, they're supposed to. I don't think anyone actually does.

Piscivore · 4th September 2009, 05:03 PM

I don't recognise the authority of the Church, so whatever silly little rules govern their superstition are irrelevant.

The only person the victim is responsible to is her(him)self.

Thunder · 4th September 2009, 05:10 PM

i do not understand how someone could or would want to have sex with someone who is begging them not to. I just don't see that as being pleasurable at all.

HeyLeroy · 4th September 2009, 05:10 PM

Can you point to any instance of rape where the victim claimed to enjoy it? Do you know anyone who has been a victim of rape?

I do.

What a ridiculous question.

Piscivore · 4th September 2009, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by HeyLeroy

Can you point to any instance of rape where the victim claimed to enjoy it?

Not outside porn. Or Ayn Rand.

Cavemonster · 4th September 2009, 05:22 PM

I'd say probably.
Look at the Muslim reation to rape, they'll often engage in "honor killing" of the victim.

The whole idea of sin across abrahamic religion is about ritual purity, it only roughly equates to being a good person in practical, real ways.

The catholic church would rather have a child (from a rape) with severe birth defects born to know nothing but pain and bankrupt the mother before dying in pain than allow an abortion.

So I wouldn't at all be surprised if they held the victim as tainted in their eyes, but specifically, ask a priest if you want the answer, it's all more or less arbitrary.

bookitty · 4th September 2009, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession?

How do you get "helped" & "enjoyed it" in a discussion of rape? Rape is sexual assault without consent. I have to wonder why you would ask this question in the first place.

HansMustermann · 4th September 2009, 05:39 PM

Well, sad to say, it seems to me that a lot of people think a rape victim would enjoy it.

I'm going to use the aberration known as "corrective rape" as an example again. In which someone rapes a lesbian, apparently based on the retarded idea that it would amply prove that a man does it better and turn her heterosexual. Apparently even if it involves beating her black and blue in the process. Go figure.

I can't imagine what kind of confusion of mind would cause the idea that a thoroughly traumatic event would be enjoyable, but maybe that's just me.

Mason · 4th September 2009, 05:41 PM

Not to put words into his mouth, but I assume "Help" would be something along the lines of not fighting back to avoid being brutalized further, or not knowing what to do and being very confused and afraid so just going along with it out of fear instead of screaming for help. "Enjoy" might mean that while emotionally traumatic, there may have been some physical pleasure or even climax, even if the victim didn't go along with it.

I think these are reasonable assumptions for what he meant and go along with the OP's apparent intent.

bookitty · 4th September 2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mason

Not to put words into his mouth, but I assume "Help" would be something along the lines of not fighting back to avoid being brutalized further, or not knowing what to do and being very confused and afraid so just going along with it out of fear instead of screaming for help. "Enjoy" might mean that while emotionally traumatic, there may have been some physical pleasure or even climax, even if the victim didn't go along with it.

I think these are reasonable assumptions for what he meant and go along with the OP's apparent intent.

It's true that human sexuality and all the emotional variations that go with it could lead to a circumstance in which a rape victim felt that they had helped. Fear can cause the body to react in strange ways. So a rape victim might feel as if their body had responded in a positive way.

But the question is does a rape victim who experiences one of these even more traumatic variations need to go to confession? In other words, do they need to take responsibility for their part in the attack? No, of course not. They are not guilty of their own rape, regardless of what happened.

I do wish I knew more about the OP and why they are asking. It would completely change the tone of the question.

Sun Countess · 4th September 2009, 09:01 PM

Doesn't society as a whole make (many) rape victims feel horrible enough already, because of what they were wearing, or where they were waiting, or because they didn't fight back hard enough? Now someone thinks that these crime victims should admit to their priests that they're filthy sinning whores? Confession sounds like one big guilt-fest, designed to make one feel crappy and worthless, so I suppose the church might think there's some merit in the OP's disgusting suggestion.

In the same way, somebody who doesn't properly fight off a mugger should go to confession because he "helped" someone else commit the sin of stealing.

Mason · 4th September 2009, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by bookitty

It's true that human sexuality and all the emotional variations that go with it could lead to a circumstance in which a rape victim felt that they had helped. Fear can cause the body to react in strange ways. So a rape victim might feel as if their body had responded in a positive way.

But the question is does a rape victim who experiences one of these even more traumatic variations need to go to confession? In other words, do they need to take responsibility for their part in the attack? No, of course not. They are not guilty of their own rape, regardless of what happened.

I do wish I knew more about the OP and why they are asking. It would completely change the tone of the question.

I think the question is "Where is the line between sin and innocence?"

Woman goes to bar, intent on one-nighter with the first guy who buys her a drink. First guy turns out to be best man at a bachelor party. Woman loses count somewhere in the teens. High end of sex spectrum.

12 year-old girl who hasn't noticed boys yet. Babysits for the neighbors to save up for confirmation gown. Man comes home, knocks her out with a brick, has his way with her. Low end of sex spectrum.

The OP seems to be asking where along the "sex" spectrum does a particular act no longer count as a sin, and whether that point is located somewhere in the "nonconsent" area of the spectrum.

slingblade · 5th September 2009, 12:43 AM

There are times when I find I don't like being of the same species as some members of my species.

This would be one of those times.

lionking · 5th September 2009, 01:02 AM

There are no gradations of rape. The OP is ridiculous.

JJM 777 · 5th September 2009, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the
message erased.

They are so busy erasing any mention of pedophilia in(side) the church (buildings), they may accidentally censor also other topics.

Originally Posted by CplFerro

My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession?

"Confession" is the Catholic equivalent of a therapy session at psychologist. It is a good idea, but certainly no obligation, for a rape victim to have a therapy session at a qualified psychiatrist. Preferably non-Catholic, I would advise.

Originally Posted by lionking

There are no gradations of rape. The OP is ridiculous.

What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not.

In court the proof is often in words only, word against word, which in civilized world should never justify a penalty, unless there is other proof of the involuntary nature of the act than words only. Because of the practical difficulty of proving that a sex act was actually an involuntary rape, entering private and erotic circumstances with a person whom you don't want to have sex with is a risky thing to do.

SezMe · 5th September 2009, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

Why wouldn't they? They have to go for normal sex. At least, they're supposed to. I don't think anyone actually does.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

SezMe · 5th September 2009, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mason

Woman goes to bar, intent on one-nighter with the first guy who buys her a drink. First guy turns out to be best man at a bachelor party. Woman loses count somewhere in the teens. High end of sex spectrum.

12 year-old girl who hasn't noticed boys yet. Babysits for the neighbors to save up for confirmation gown. Man comes home, knocks her out with a brick, has his way with her. Low end of sex spectrum.

The OP seems to be asking where along the "sex" spectrum does a particular act no longer count as a sin, and whether that point is located somewhere in the "nonconsent" area of the spectrum.

There is no connection between rape and sex (in the consensual context). The OP, as already stated, ridiculous. It displays a lack of knowledge about sex.

bookitty · 5th September 2009, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

They are so busy erasing any mention of pedophilia in(side) the church (buildings), they may accidentally censor also other topics.

"Confession" is the Catholic equivalent of a therapy session at psychologist. It is a good idea, but certainly no obligation, for a rape victim to have a therapy session at a qualified psychiatrist. Preferably non-Catholic, I would advise.

What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not.

In court the proof is often in words only, word against word, which in civilized world should never justify a penalty, unless there is other proof of the involuntary nature of the act than words only. Because of the practical difficulty of proving that a sex act was actually an involuntary rape, entering private and erotic circumstances with a person whom you don't want to have sex with is a risky thing to do.

And what proof is good enough? A black eye, a neighbor heard screaming?

Are you aware that the common advice to women is to be quiet and take it? Rape is about power. Fighting a rapist can get you killed because it is an escalating battle for control. And if you don't fight, then people will assume that you "helped" or "liked it." Seems like there's an awful lot of rules for women when it comes to being raped.

Rape is a horrific crime. So why are there so many discussions in which people trip all over themselves defending some hypothetical rapist? You always see the "if the woman is drunk, or was flirting..." side but you never see a question like "If a guy takes advantage of a woman who is drunk, should he turn himself in?"

lionking · 5th September 2009, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not.

Unwilling sex is rape. Clear?

Sabrina · 5th September 2009, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

i do not understand how someone could or would want to have sex with someone who is begging them not to. I just don't see that as being pleasurable at all.

For the rapist, it is about the power over their intended victim; it's not about the sex. They achieve sexual pleasure via the act of dominating another; they get off on the idea that they are forcing this person to do something they do not want to do and violating them in the process. It's a sick, twisted mindset, but it's already been well established that there are some sick, twisted people out there.

As to the OP; the body is a machine, more or less, programmed to respond in certain ways to certain stimuli. There have been cases where a rape victim achieved orgasm via the rape that occurred, but that doesn't make it any less an act of rape. My point is, it doesn't matter whether the person doesn't fight back or even receives pleasure from the act; it is still an act of rape and therefore the victim is not at fault. I can't speak to the Catholic requirement for confession in those cases, as I'm not Catholic, but it sounds to me like you are trying to find a way to pin some of the blame on the victim by saying "well, he/she enjoyed it, so they're partially at fault for not fighting back." I've got news for you; often times the person being raped is physically incapable of escaping their captor and may come to the conscious decision that it isn't worth the potential injury to fight back, and their physical response is oftentimes, as I stated above, out of their conscious control. It becomes more important to survive than to fight back in those cases. I'll end with this; quite frankly, I find your apparent assumption that the victim bears some blame in the act extremely insulting to rape victims, and I sincerely hope you never screw up some poor person's head even more by even SUGGESTING so in the future.

DuckOnWarpath · 5th September 2009, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by bookitty

If a guy takes advantage of a woman who is drunk, should he turn himself in?

He should, however I don't see that happening.

A rapist may think "(s)he had it coming", however in reality no matter how one acts, dresses etc, no one has any right to rape.

As to the OP, AFAIK they should go to confess even if it were consensual, yet pleasurable love making.

Mason · 5th September 2009, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession?

After seeing more replies, I find myself wondering WTF is so hard about this question that there has to be an arguement about victims and definitions of rape? We've all read the bible, we all make fun of it on a regular basis, we all know what "abomination" and "unclean" means in the biblical context, we all know that confession is to cleanse one's sins. We all know the sins and the sentances carried for them are ridiculous. We're all very familiar with the absurdities in that book and the irrationality of the people who support it. The question is about these absurdities, and has nothing to do with legal issues, moral issues, or semantics. It's about what is considerd a sin requiring confession, as outlined by the religion that requires confession in the first place.

Women who are menstruating are unclean in the bible. Are they willingly and intentionally engaging in a sinful act? No, it's a natural act, yet the bible still outlines a form of pennance for the act. Unwedded sex, in the eyes of the church, is sinful. Motive, willingness, etc, do not change the fact that the victim still had sex. Again, the question is about whether the CHURCH REQUIRES YOU TO CONFESS THIS SIN, to be cleansed of it in the eyes of God, not about whether you called the police or were wearing something provocative and asked for it.

If I'm outside gardening and I get dirty, I need a shower. If someone throws a bucket of mud on me, I still need a shower. Motive, intent, cooperation, etc do not change the fact that I'm unclean and need a shower in both scenarios. Now, whether I press assault charges against you or if you try to say I has it coming is an entirely different matter, a matter for the courts to decide. In the meantime, I'm going to get a shower to wash the mud off.

That's what confession is, cleansing your sins, with sins being outlined in the bible and interpreted by the church. The OP is trying to find out if the CHURCH considers nonconsensual sex to still be SINFUL for the nonconsenting party.

Maybe I'm just tired, but damn, it's a pretty simple question, and thinking about the old testament, I would say the answer is probably, regrettably, "Yes".

JJM 777 · 5th September 2009, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Unwilling sex is rape. Clear?

Clear in theory, but how do you prove in court that it was involuntary? Not easy if the woman fears so much that she doesn't resist physically, which means that there will be no signs of physical violence.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Otherwise we will have many innocent men in jail, which already is the case at the moment.

Dancing David · 5th September 2009, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession?

Have you ever met a rape victim?

Or is this just a how many stupid angels can stand on the head of your stupid question sort of question?

Define 'help', do you mean like prisoners at a concentration camp 'helping' the guards or do you mean like What?

Your question is foolish and hypothetical, what person has enpryed being beaten in a fight? Should they go to confession because they enjoyed being beaten?

Dancing David · 5th September 2009, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Clear in theory, but how do you prove in court that it was involuntary? Not easy if the woman fears so much that she doesn't resist physically, which means that there will be no signs of physical violence.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Otherwise we will have many innocent men in jail, which already is the case at the moment.

Excuse me, are you really going to go there?

So when an adult perpetrator uses a child for sexual gratification, without any physical harm to the child, you will say it is not rape?

Rape is non-consensual sex, do you believe in marital rape?

How many innocent people are in jail for other crimes and why do you single out rape?

Dancing David · 5th September 2009, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

i do not understand how someone could or would want to have sex with someone who is begging them not to. I just don't see that as being pleasurable at all.

Because they get off on causing pain, theye njoy the pain of forcing someone to endure a terrible act.

Why would people get sexual gratification from killing other people?

JJM 777 · 5th September 2009, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

So when an adult perpetrator uses a child for sexual gratification, without any physical harm to the child, you will say it is not rape?

If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Again, if talking about law enforcement (which is not a necessary topic for us though), proving that anything sexual ever happened between two persons can be difficult or impossible, if the case is reported a long time after the event, as often is the case. Word against word, without any other evidence, should never result in a conviction in court.

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Rape is non-consensual sex, do you believe in marital rape?

Rape can happen anywhere, also in marriage.

Originally Posted by Dancing David

How many innocent people are in jail for other crimes and why do you single out rape?

I don't "single out" rape. I am against any punishments given to people on "probable" grounds, as popular as it may be in various countries, if binding evidence does not exist.

When binding evidence exists, I support essentially harsher punishments than Western countries give nowadays. 100 years back the punishments were more reasonable.

Elizabeth I · 5th September 2009, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

They are so busy erasing any mention of pedophilia in(side) the church (buildings), they may accidentally censor also other topics.

"Confession" is the Catholic equivalent of a therapy session at psychologist. It is a good idea, but certainly no obligation, for a rape victim to have a therapy session at a qualified psychiatrist. Preferably non-Catholic, I would advise.

What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not.

In court the proof is often in words only, word against word, which in civilized world should never justify a penalty, unless there is other proof of the involuntary nature of the act than words only. Because of the practical difficulty of proving that a sex act was actually an involuntary rape, entering private and erotic circumstances with a person whom you don't want to have sex with is a risky thing to do.

I was about to come out with guns blazing about this post, but many other posters have already blasted it much more effectively than I ever could.

Originally Posted by SezMe

There is no connection between rape and sex (in the consensual context). The OP, as already stated, ridiculous. It displays a lack of knowledge about sex.

And about rape.

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Clear in theory, but how do you prove in court that it was involuntary? Not easy if the woman fears so much that she doesn't resist physically, which means that there will be no signs of physical violence.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Otherwise we will have many innocent men in jail, which already is the case at the moment.

Do you know what someone who reports a rape has to go through? Do you think there are a whole lot of people who would go through that just for the LOLs? Or even for some kind of revenge?

Instead of "many innocent men in jail" [for rape], I think what we have is a whole lot of men who thought like you and believed in their god-given right to act on what their penises said.

And your remarks about sex with children leave me incoherent with rage.

DuckOnWarpath · 5th September 2009, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape.

Different people/cultures and states have different laws (thus definitions) regarding that, however IMHO no matter how willing a child becomes to "experiment", it is always rape, because a child has little to no knowledge of the proposed acts. A child cannot be held accountable to make that choice.

Pardalis · 5th September 2009, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape.

Peadophilia or ephebophilia are paraphilias, deviant sexual preferences, they have nothing to do with whether the child is willing or not, or the act of rape itself.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 5th September 2009, 10:17 AM

Here's my question on the subject: Who gives a crap?

~~ Paul

slingblade · 5th September 2009, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear.

Hey, man? You're a man, right?

I bet if someone raped you, you'd know.
I bet if someone raped you, you'd want to hit people who asked this stupid, stupid question.

A man once reached through the open window of my parked car to grope my breasts. I'd just given birth a month before and had major surgery immediately afterwards. I had 12 inches of sutures extending from between my breasts to below my navel. Because of this, I couldn't wear a bra. And this moron walks up to my car as it's parked in a lot, reaches in my window, and grabs a handful of my breast.

I prosecuted the bastard. He went to jail.

I bet if it happened to you, you'd know what sexual assault feels like, and you'd never make stupid, stupid statements about assault again.

slingblade · 5th September 2009, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape.

This argument is really a piece of work.

Oh hey, have I ever mentioned that I was serially sexually assaulted from the ages of 8 to 14 by numerous middle-aged men?

Have I ever mentioned it ruined me as a human being and I pray for death every day now because I'm so defective?

Let's you and me talk about the willing participation of children in sexual assault, shall we?

Wudang · 5th September 2009, 10:48 AM

"helping" - there was one case I read about at the time (and I found numerous google hits) where the rapist argued that because the victim had begged him to wear a condom that she had consented. This was a remarkably level-headed woman who realised that she had no way of stopping the crime so did what she could to limit the impact - akin to a man being beaten covering his head and not his back.
Of course, the law rightly found that trying to mitigate the effects of a crime does not mean consent to the crime. However the neanderthals came out.
I understand there is also an effect in some male on male rape - stimulation of the prostate may result in an involuntary erection on the victim's part which can cause psychological damage - especially if he has no clue what a prostate is.

Delscottio · 5th September 2009, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

Do you know what someone who reports a rape has to go through? Do you think there are a whole lot of people who would go through that just for the LOLs? Or even for some kind of revenge?

Strangely enough, there are quite a few people out there willing to do exactly that.

Without looking for exact number a quick google search throws up quite a few cases. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...e&start=0&sa=N

This report claims that in 40% of complaints investigated no rape had taken place. I hope it is a load of rubbish to be honest. http://www.familieslink.co.uk/downlo...s%20common.pdf

bookitty · 5th September 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

So in your scenario you have a perfectly willing preteen having sex with an adult. The only adult who would want to participate is a pederast. A pederast has sick & selfish reasons for encouraging this. Adults can easily manipulate the emotions of children.

So how willing is a child who has been mentally abused enough to give what looks like consent?

Even if a child indicates willingness without being manipulated, the adult should NOT be taking advantage of that. Children do not have enough life-experience to fully understand the consequences. They are not able to grant consent.

ponderingturtle · 5th September 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

There are no gradations of rape. The OP is ridiculous.

Then define rape. It gets confusing when say it was consensual sex but under the influences of recreational pharmaceuticals or alcohol.

ponderingturtle · 5th September 2009, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

There is no connection between rape and sex (in the consensual context). The OP, as already stated, ridiculous. It displays a lack of knowledge about sex.

Given how common rape fantasies are, I find this argument less convincing.

4th September 2009, 04:52 PM	#1
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	[Sensitive topic] Victim culpability in rape I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession?

4th September 2009, 04:55 PM	#3
Pure Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 6,259	Why wouldn't they? They have to go for normal sex. At least, they're supposed to. I don't think anyone actually does.
	__________________ "Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

4th September 2009, 05:03 PM	#4
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,456	I don't recognise the authority of the Church, so whatever silly little rules govern their superstition are irrelevant. The only person the victim is responsible to is her(him)self.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen Last edited by Piscivore; 4th September 2009 at 05:04 PM.

4th September 2009, 05:10 PM	#6
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,565	Can you point to any instance of rape where the victim claimed to enjoy it? Do you know anyone who has been a victim of rape? I do. What a ridiculous question.
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

4th September 2009, 05:13 PM	#7
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,456	Originally Posted by HeyLeroy Can you point to any instance of rape where the victim claimed to enjoy it? Not outside porn. Or Ayn Rand.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

4th September 2009, 04:54 PM	#2
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,109	* Safe-Keeper recognizes can of worms he's been through repeatedly before, and leaves thread.

4th September 2009, 05:10 PM	#5
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	i do not understand how someone could or would want to have sex with someone who is begging them not to. I just don't see that as being pleasurable at all.

4th September 2009, 05:22 PM	#8
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	I'd say probably. Look at the Muslim reation to rape, they'll often engage in "honor killing" of the victim. The whole idea of sin across abrahamic religion is about ritual purity, it only roughly equates to being a good person in practical, real ways. The catholic church would rather have a child (from a rape) with severe birth defects born to know nothing but pain and bankrupt the mother before dying in pain than allow an abortion. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if they held the victim as tainted in their eyes, but specifically, ask a priest if you want the answer, it's all more or less arbitrary.
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

4th September 2009, 05:32 PM	#9
bookitty Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,532	Originally Posted by CplFerro I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession? How do you get "helped" & "enjoyed it" in a discussion of rape? Rape is sexual assault without consent. I have to wonder why you would ask this question in the first place.

4th September 2009, 05:39 PM	#10
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,832	Well, sad to say, it seems to me that a lot of people think a rape victim would enjoy it. I'm going to use the aberration known as "corrective rape" as an example again. In which someone rapes a lesbian, apparently based on the retarded idea that it would amply prove that a man does it better and turn her heterosexual. Apparently even if it involves beating her black and blue in the process. Go figure. I can't imagine what kind of confusion of mind would cause the idea that a thoroughly traumatic event would be enjoyable, but maybe that's just me.

4th September 2009, 05:41 PM	#11
Mason Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 231	Not to put words into his mouth, but I assume "Help" would be something along the lines of not fighting back to avoid being brutalized further, or not knowing what to do and being very confused and afraid so just going along with it out of fear instead of screaming for help. "Enjoy" might mean that while emotionally traumatic, there may have been some physical pleasure or even climax, even if the victim didn't go along with it. I think these are reasonable assumptions for what he meant and go along with the OP's apparent intent.
Mason Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 231

4th September 2009, 06:05 PM	#12
bookitty Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,532	Originally Posted by Mason Not to put words into his mouth, but I assume "Help" would be something along the lines of not fighting back to avoid being brutalized further, or not knowing what to do and being very confused and afraid so just going along with it out of fear instead of screaming for help. "Enjoy" might mean that while emotionally traumatic, there may have been some physical pleasure or even climax, even if the victim didn't go along with it. I think these are reasonable assumptions for what he meant and go along with the OP's apparent intent. It's true that human sexuality and all the emotional variations that go with it could lead to a circumstance in which a rape victim felt that they had helped. Fear can cause the body to react in strange ways. So a rape victim might feel as if their body had responded in a positive way. But the question is does a rape victim who experiences one of these even more traumatic variations need to go to confession? In other words, do they need to take responsibility for their part in the attack? No, of course not. They are not guilty of their own rape, regardless of what happened. I do wish I knew more about the OP and why they are asking. It would completely change the tone of the question.

4th September 2009, 09:01 PM	#13
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Doesn't society as a whole make (many) rape victims feel horrible enough already, because of what they were wearing, or where they were waiting, or because they didn't fight back hard enough? Now someone thinks that these crime victims should admit to their priests that they're filthy sinning whores? Confession sounds like one big guilt-fest, designed to make one feel crappy and worthless, so I suppose the church might think there's some merit in the OP's disgusting suggestion. In the same way, somebody who doesn't properly fight off a mugger should go to confession because he "helped" someone else commit the sin of stealing.

4th September 2009, 09:33 PM	#14
Mason Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 231	Originally Posted by bookitty It's true that human sexuality and all the emotional variations that go with it could lead to a circumstance in which a rape victim felt that they had helped. Fear can cause the body to react in strange ways. So a rape victim might feel as if their body had responded in a positive way. But the question is does a rape victim who experiences one of these even more traumatic variations need to go to confession? In other words, do they need to take responsibility for their part in the attack? No, of course not. They are not guilty of their own rape, regardless of what happened. I do wish I knew more about the OP and why they are asking. It would completely change the tone of the question. I think the question is "Where is the line between sin and innocence?" Woman goes to bar, intent on one-nighter with the first guy who buys her a drink. First guy turns out to be best man at a bachelor party. Woman loses count somewhere in the teens. High end of sex spectrum. 12 year-old girl who hasn't noticed boys yet. Babysits for the neighbors to save up for confirmation gown. Man comes home, knocks her out with a brick, has his way with her. Low end of sex spectrum. The OP seems to be asking where along the "sex" spectrum does a particular act no longer count as a sin, and whether that point is located somewhere in the "nonconsent" area of the spectrum.
Mason Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 231

5th September 2009, 12:43 AM	#15
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	There are times when I find I don't like being of the same species as some members of my species. This would be one of those times.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

5th September 2009, 01:02 AM	#16
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,649	There are no gradations of rape. The OP is ridiculous.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

5th September 2009, 01:31 AM	#17
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by CplFerro I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. They are so busy erasing any mention of pedophilia in(side) the church (buildings), they may accidentally censor also other topics. Originally Posted by CplFerro My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession? "Confession" is the Catholic equivalent of a therapy session at psychologist. It is a good idea, but certainly no obligation, for a rape victim to have a therapy session at a qualified psychiatrist. Preferably non-Catholic, I would advise. Originally Posted by lionking There are no gradations of rape. The OP is ridiculous. What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not. In court the proof is often in words only, word against word, which in civilized world should never justify a penalty, unless there is other proof of the involuntary nature of the act than words only. Because of the practical difficulty of proving that a sex act was actually an involuntary rape, entering private and erotic circumstances with a person whom you don't want to have sex with is a risky thing to do.
	Last edited by JJM 777; 5th September 2009 at 01:33 AM.

5th September 2009, 01:35 AM	#18
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent Why wouldn't they? They have to go for normal sex. At least, they're supposed to. I don't think anyone actually does. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

5th September 2009, 01:41 AM	#19
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Mason Woman goes to bar, intent on one-nighter with the first guy who buys her a drink. First guy turns out to be best man at a bachelor party. Woman loses count somewhere in the teens. High end of sex spectrum. 12 year-old girl who hasn't noticed boys yet. Babysits for the neighbors to save up for confirmation gown. Man comes home, knocks her out with a brick, has his way with her. Low end of sex spectrum. The OP seems to be asking where along the "sex" spectrum does a particular act no longer count as a sin, and whether that point is located somewhere in the "nonconsent" area of the spectrum. There is no connection between rape and sex (in the consensual context). The OP, as already stated, ridiculous. It displays a lack of knowledge about sex.

5th September 2009, 01:51 AM	#20
bookitty Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,532	Originally Posted by JJM 777 They are so busy erasing any mention of pedophilia in(side) the church (buildings), they may accidentally censor also other topics. "Confession" is the Catholic equivalent of a therapy session at psychologist. It is a good idea, but certainly no obligation, for a rape victim to have a therapy session at a qualified psychiatrist. Preferably non-Catholic, I would advise. What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not. In court the proof is often in words only, word against word, which in civilized world should never justify a penalty, unless there is other proof of the involuntary nature of the act than words only. Because of the practical difficulty of proving that a sex act was actually an involuntary rape, entering private and erotic circumstances with a person whom you don't want to have sex with is a risky thing to do. And what proof is good enough? A black eye, a neighbor heard screaming? Are you aware that the common advice to women is to be quiet and take it? Rape is about power. Fighting a rapist can get you killed because it is an escalating battle for control. And if you don't fight, then people will assume that you "helped" or "liked it." Seems like there's an awful lot of rules for women when it comes to being raped. Rape is a horrific crime. So why are there so many discussions in which people trip all over themselves defending some hypothetical rapist? You always see the "if the woman is drunk, or was flirting..." side but you never see a question like "If a guy takes advantage of a woman who is drunk, should he turn himself in?"

5th September 2009, 02:54 AM	#21
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,649	Originally Posted by JJM 777 What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not. Unwilling sex is rape. Clear?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

5th September 2009, 04:01 AM	#22
Sabrina Wicked Lovely Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spinning through space Posts: 6,870	Originally Posted by parky76 i do not understand how someone could or would want to have sex with someone who is begging them not to. I just don't see that as being pleasurable at all. For the rapist, it is about the power over their intended victim; it's not about the sex. They achieve sexual pleasure via the act of dominating another; they get off on the idea that they are forcing this person to do something they do not want to do and violating them in the process. It's a sick, twisted mindset, but it's already been well established that there are some sick, twisted people out there. As to the OP; the body is a machine, more or less, programmed to respond in certain ways to certain stimuli. There have been cases where a rape victim achieved orgasm via the rape that occurred, but that doesn't make it any less an act of rape. My point is, it doesn't matter whether the person doesn't fight back or even receives pleasure from the act; it is still an act of rape and therefore the victim is not at fault. I can't speak to the Catholic requirement for confession in those cases, as I'm not Catholic, but it sounds to me like you are trying to find a way to pin some of the blame on the victim by saying "well, he/she enjoyed it, so they're partially at fault for not fighting back." I've got news for you; often times the person being raped is physically incapable of escaping their captor and may come to the conscious decision that it isn't worth the potential injury to fight back, and their physical response is oftentimes, as I stated above, out of their conscious control. It becomes more important to survive than to fight back in those cases. I'll end with this; quite frankly, I find your apparent assumption that the victim bears some blame in the act extremely insulting to rape victims, and I sincerely hope you never screw up some poor person's head even more by even SUGGESTING so in the future.
	__________________ "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985 *Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.* *Sins are very desirable... as long as no one judges you for them.*

5th September 2009, 04:16 AM	#23
DuckOnWarpath Student Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 33	Originally Posted by bookitty If a guy takes advantage of a woman who is drunk, should he turn himself in? He should, however I don't see that happening. A rapist may think "(s)he had it coming", however in reality no matter how one acts, dresses etc, no one has any right to rape. As to the OP, AFAIK they should go to confess even if it were consensual, yet pleasurable love making.
DuckOnWarpath Student Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 33

5th September 2009, 05:39 AM	#24
Mason Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 231	Originally Posted by CplFerro I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession? After seeing more replies, I find myself wondering WTF is so hard about this question that there has to be an arguement about victims and definitions of rape? We've all read the bible, we all make fun of it on a regular basis, we all know what "abomination" and "unclean" means in the biblical context, we all know that confession is to cleanse one's sins. We all know the sins and the sentances carried for them are ridiculous. We're all very familiar with the absurdities in that book and the irrationality of the people who support it. The question is about these absurdities, and has nothing to do with legal issues, moral issues, or semantics. It's about what is considerd a sin requiring confession, as outlined by the religion that requires confession in the first place. Women who are menstruating are unclean in the bible. Are they willingly and intentionally engaging in a sinful act? No, it's a natural act, yet the bible still outlines a form of pennance for the act. Unwedded sex, in the eyes of the church, is sinful. Motive, willingness, etc, do not change the fact that the victim still had sex. Again, the question is about whether the CHURCH REQUIRES YOU TO CONFESS THIS SIN, to be cleansed of it in the eyes of God, not about whether you called the police or were wearing something provocative and asked for it. If I'm outside gardening and I get dirty, I need a shower. If someone throws a bucket of mud on me, I still need a shower. Motive, intent, cooperation, etc do not change the fact that I'm unclean and need a shower in both scenarios. Now, whether I press assault charges against you or if you try to say I has it coming is an entirely different matter, a matter for the courts to decide. In the meantime, I'm going to get a shower to wash the mud off. That's what confession is, cleansing your sins, with sins being outlined in the bible and interpreted by the church. The OP is trying to find out if the CHURCH considers nonconsensual sex to still be SINFUL for the nonconsenting party. Maybe I'm just tired, but damn, it's a pretty simple question, and thinking about the old testament, I would say the answer is probably, regrettably, "Yes".
Mason Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 231

5th September 2009, 06:01 AM	#25
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by lionking Unwilling sex is rape. Clear? Clear in theory, but how do you prove in court that it was involuntary? Not easy if the woman fears so much that she doesn't resist physically, which means that there will be no signs of physical violence. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Otherwise we will have many innocent men in jail, which already is the case at the moment.

5th September 2009, 06:08 AM	#26
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Originally Posted by CplFerro I asked this at a Catholic forum and had the message erased. My question is, if someone is raped, and they enjoyed it a little bit, and/or "helped" in the rape instead of fighting or passively resisting, do they have to go to confession? Have you ever met a rape victim? Or is this just a how many stupid angels can stand on the head of your stupid question sort of question? Define 'help', do you mean like prisoners at a concentration camp 'helping' the guards or do you mean like What? Your question is foolish and hypothetical, what person has enpryed being beaten in a fight? Should they go to confession because they enjoyed being beaten?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

5th September 2009, 06:10 AM	#27
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Originally Posted by JJM 777 Clear in theory, but how do you prove in court that it was involuntary? Not easy if the woman fears so much that she doesn't resist physically, which means that there will be no signs of physical violence. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Otherwise we will have many innocent men in jail, which already is the case at the moment. Excuse me, are you really going to go there? So when an adult perpetrator uses a child for sexual gratification, without any physical harm to the child, you will say it is not rape? Rape is non-consensual sex, do you believe in marital rape? How many innocent people are in jail for other crimes and why do you single out rape?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

5th September 2009, 06:14 AM	#28
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Originally Posted by parky76 i do not understand how someone could or would want to have sex with someone who is begging them not to. I just don't see that as being pleasurable at all. Because they get off on causing pain, theye njoy the pain of forcing someone to endure a terrible act. Why would people get sexual gratification from killing other people?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

5th September 2009, 07:37 AM	#29
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by Dancing David So when an adult perpetrator uses a child for sexual gratification, without any physical harm to the child, you will say it is not rape? If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia Again, if talking about law enforcement (which is not a necessary topic for us though), proving that anything sexual ever happened between two persons can be difficult or impossible, if the case is reported a long time after the event, as often is the case. Word against word, without any other evidence, should never result in a conviction in court. Originally Posted by Dancing David Rape is non-consensual sex, do you believe in marital rape? Rape can happen anywhere, also in marriage. Originally Posted by Dancing David How many innocent people are in jail for other crimes and why do you single out rape? I don't "single out" rape. I am against any punishments given to people on "probable" grounds, as popular as it may be in various countries, if binding evidence does not exist. When binding evidence exists, I support essentially harsher punishments than Western countries give nowadays. 100 years back the punishments were more reasonable.

5th September 2009, 07:55 AM	#30
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,255	Originally Posted by JJM 777 They are so busy erasing any mention of pedophilia in(side) the church (buildings), they may accidentally censor also other topics. "Confession" is the Catholic equivalent of a therapy session at psychologist. It is a good idea, but certainly no obligation, for a rape victim to have a therapy session at a qualified psychiatrist. Preferably non-Catholic, I would advise. What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Someone is simply raped with brute force. Someone is threatened with violence, and she fully cooperates to avoid violence. Someone receives dirty suggestions in private and already erotic circumstances, and next morning the two have different memories about whether she actually agreed to sex or not. In court the proof is often in words only, word against word, which in civilized world should never justify a penalty, unless there is other proof of the involuntary nature of the act than words only. Because of the practical difficulty of proving that a sex act was actually an involuntary rape, entering private and erotic circumstances with a person whom you don't want to have sex with is a risky thing to do. I was about to come out with guns blazing about this post, but many other posters have already blasted it much more effectively than I ever could. Originally Posted by SezMe There is no connection between rape and sex (in the consensual context). The OP, as already stated, ridiculous. It displays a lack of knowledge about sex. And about rape. Originally Posted by JJM 777 Clear in theory, but how do you prove in court that it was involuntary? Not easy if the woman fears so much that she doesn't resist physically, which means that there will be no signs of physical violence. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Otherwise we will have many innocent men in jail, which already is the case at the moment. Do you know what someone who reports a rape has to go through? Do you think there are a whole lot of people who would go through that just for the LOLs? Or even for some kind of revenge? Instead of "many innocent men in jail" [for rape], I think what we have is a whole lot of men who thought like you and believed in their god-given right to act on what their penises said. And your remarks about sex with children leave me incoherent with rage.
	__________________ • There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill • Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. • My blog: Pardon me, may I ask... Last edited by Elizabeth I; 5th September 2009 at 07:56 AM. Reason: to correct a typo.

5th September 2009, 09:26 AM	#31
DuckOnWarpath Student Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 33	Originally Posted by JJM 777 If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape. Different people/cultures and states have different laws (thus definitions) regarding that, however IMHO no matter how willing a child becomes to "experiment", it is always rape, because a child has little to no knowledge of the proposed acts. A child cannot be held accountable to make that choice.
DuckOnWarpath Student Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 33

5th September 2009, 10:16 AM	#32
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by JJM 777 If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape. Peadophilia or ephebophilia are paraphilias, deviant sexual preferences, they have nothing to do with whether the child is willing or not, or the act of rape itself.

5th September 2009, 10:17 AM	#33
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	Here's my question on the subject: Who gives a crap? ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

5th September 2009, 10:35 AM	#34
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by JJM 777 What is a "rape", and what is very strong-willed and persistent petition to have sex... the line is not always clear. Hey, man? You're a man, right? I bet if someone raped you, you'd know. I bet if someone raped you, you'd want to hit people who asked this stupid, stupid question. A man once reached through the open window of my parked car to grope my breasts. I'd just given birth a month before and had major surgery immediately afterwards. I had 12 inches of sutures extending from between my breasts to below my navel. Because of this, I couldn't wear a bra. And this moron walks up to my car as it's parked in a lot, reaches in my window, and grabs a handful of my breast. I prosecuted the bastard. He went to jail. I bet if it happened to you, you'd know what sexual assault feels like, and you'd never make stupid, stupid statements about assault again.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

5th September 2009, 10:38 AM	#35
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by JJM 777 If the child willingly participates, I would classify it as pedophilia (for preteens), or ephebophilia (for teens), not rape. This argument is really a piece of work. Oh hey, have I ever mentioned that I was serially sexually assaulted from the ages of 8 to 14 by numerous middle-aged men? Have I ever mentioned it ruined me as a human being and I pray for death every day now because I'm so defective? Let's you and me talk about the willing participation of children in sexual assault, shall we?
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642