Opponents of health care reform: why do you hate me?

Travis · 8th September 2009, 07:37 PM

An Open Letter,

As some might recall from back when I had the rabies scare, I am uninsured. This is because I am, in the Health Insurance Providers words, "uninsurable" thanks to several pre-existing conditions and a family history chock full of deadly cancers. Sure Kaiser said they would if I gave them $1,200 a month with a yearly $50,000 deductible and a clause that they would never pay for cancer treatments (though they would pay for mitigating side effects of cancer treatments

) which made that offer effectively useless. Back when I was trying to figure out how I might get the $3,000 post exposure rabies treatment I was told very starkly how I could get health insurance 1) win the lottery or 2) quit my job, get a woman pregnant and end up on government assistance.

How insane is it that those are my only options? How insane is it that a proposal that would create a system where people with pre-existing conditions and high risk histories could get covered is denounced as "evil?"

What the hell do you people have against people like me? What did we ever do to you? Are you so insecure in your place in life that you lay awake at night worrying that "undeserving" people might just have a right to basic medical care? Have you become so insanely polarized that anything the other side proposes simply must be bad? Has the coddling you've received as the coveted NASCAR Dad demographic gone to your head? Have you read too many anarchist pamphlets being handed out by the screaming lunatic on the corner who still thinks Carter is President?

I mean we're getting handed the keys to a program that is more humane and egalitarian and you're just swatting the keys to the dirt and spitting on it for good measure just so everyone knows what a jerk you are. Then, when told how much of a jerk it makes you look like, you revel in it and strut about. "Yeah, that's me, King Jerk! Whaddayagonnadoboutit?"

So, King Jerk, the question is again put to you, why do you hate people like me and Ducky (who got screwed over by private health insurance in a way I hope I no one else ever has to be again)? Sure, you might protest that you only hate the existing proposals but when your counter-proposals consist of nothing but tax credits for what people pay for private health insurance I can't help but shake my head because it misses the point that private health insurance companies refuse to cover some people and until I hear about something that won't leave me laying awake at night worrying about the fact that when I get cancer (and in my position it is only a matter of time) I won't have anyway to pay to get it treated.

Travis, whose been left twisting in the health care wind.

boooeee · 8th September 2009, 08:14 PM

Travis - Have you looked into MRMIP? The coverage isn't fantastic and the rates aren't cheap, but it's intended for people who can't get approved for coverage in the individual market. Another option is to find an employer that provides health insurance (easier said than done). You can't be turned away for health reasons under employer-based coverage.

Even if healthcare reform is passed, it may not kick in until 2013, which is a long time to twist in the wind.

Cobalt · 8th September 2009, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

An Open Letter,

As some might recall from back when I had the rabies scare, I am uninsured. This is because I am, in the Health Insurance Providers words, "uninsurable" thanks to several pre-existing conditions and a family history chock full of deadly cancers.

That's a shame, doesn't mean I hate you.

Originally Posted by Travis

Sure Kaiser said they would if I gave them $1,200 a month with a yearly $50,000 deductible and a clause that they would never pay for cancer treatments (though they would pay for mitigating side effects of cancer treatments

) which made that offer effectively useless.

Bummer, but I stil don't hate you.

Originally Posted by Travis

Back when I was trying to figure out how I might get the $3,000 post exposure rabies treatment I was told very starkly how I could get health insurance 1) win the lottery or 2) quit my job, get a woman pregnant and end up on government assistance.

Maybe they hated you?

Originally Posted by Travis

How insane is it that those are my only options? How insane is it that a proposal that would create a system where people with pre-existing conditions and high risk histories could get covered is denounced as "evil?"

Very insane, I still don't hate you.

Originally Posted by Travis

What the hell do you people have against people like me?

Your attitude towards me when I've done promptly dick to you is a put off, gotta say.

Originally Posted by Travis

What did we ever do to you?

Anally raped my mother and poured sugar in my gas tank. I'm just ****in' with you, nothing.

Originally Posted by Travis

Are you so insecure in your place in life that you lay awake at night worrying that "undeserving" people might just have a right to basic medical care?

I lay awake at night because I drink too much caffeine.

Originally Posted by Travis

Have you become so insanely polarized that anything the other side proposes simply must be bad?

Oh yeah man.

Originally Posted by Travis

Has the coddling you've received as the coveted NASCAR Dad demographic gone to your head?

lolwut

Originally Posted by Travis

Have you read too many anarchist pamphlets being handed out by the screaming lunatic on the corner who still thinks Carter is President?

Okay, for real, you should probably relax.

Originally Posted by Travis

I mean we're getting handed the keys to a program that is more humane and egalitarian and you're just swatting the keys to the dirt and spitting on it for good measure just so everyone knows what a jerk you are.

BROAD HUGE BRUSH THAT COULD PAINT AN ENTIRE HOUSE WITH A SINGLE STROKE.

Originally Posted by Travis

Then, when told how much of a jerk it makes you look like, you revel in it and strut about. "Yeah, that's me, King Jerk! Whaddayagonnadoboutit?"

I do revel in my assholery, but not when it comes to this. Sorry, bucko.

Originally Posted by Travis

So, King Jerk, the question is again put to you, why do you hate people like me and Ducky (who got screwed over by private health insurance in a way I hope I no one else ever has to be again)?

Oh, silly, because I can.

Originally Posted by Travis

Sure, you might protest that you only hate the existing proposals but when your counter-proposals consist of nothing but tax credits for what people pay for private health insurance I can't help but shake my head because it misses the point that private health insurance companies refuse to cover some people and until I hear about something that won't leave me laying awake at night worrying about the fact that when I get cancer (and in my position it is only a matter of time) I won't have anyway to pay to get it treated.

One. I made no proposals. Two. There is nothing that I personally can do about your situation. **** sucks. I'm honestly sorry. Three. Relax. We're not all your enemy. Maybe some of us don't like how reform suddenly means CHANGE ****ING EVERYTHING WITHOUT ANY REGARD FOR WHAT IT MAY MEAN COST WISE OR WHAT HAVE YOU!

Originally Posted by Travis

Travis, whose been left twisting in the health care wind.

Cobalt, who hopes his insurance will cover his inevitable Brazilian Jiu Jitsu injuries.

theprestige · 8th September 2009, 09:15 PM

Travis, I don't hate you.

I just don't think that there's any inalienable right to life regardless of cost. I don't believe that as the costs of keeping me alive mount up--as they are sure to do as I get progressively older--that I should be entitled to receive more and more time and effort from my fellow citizens indefinitely. Nor do I think that I should be entitled to cut more and more into the profits of for-profit health insurance companies, or into the revenues of private charities. And I don't think your claims and entitlements are any greater than mine.

I don't hate you, Travis, but I do hate your attitude and your arguments. If you'd like to come to my house, sit in my living room, and tell me to my face that you're entitled to $1,200 a month of my money and an automatic down payment of up to $50,000 more of my money on any procedure you might require, I'm perfectly happy to give your argument serious and sincere consideration. Likewise if you want to explain why you think your condition is would not or should not actually cost that much to insure or treat.

But if all you're interested in doing is ranting on the Internet about how I must hate you, simply because I disagree with you about whether or not there's an inalienable human right to life at any cost (to other people), then there's probably not much we have to say to each other.

WildCat · 8th September 2009, 09:23 PM

So it's not hatred, just pure selfishness and greed, is that it?

WildCat · 8th September 2009, 09:25 PM

And btw, if either theprestige or Cobalt have employer-provided health insurance Travis is subsidizing it through the tax breaks your employer gets.

Isn't it ironic?

mortimer · 8th September 2009, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

I mean we're getting handed the keys to a program that is more humane and egalitarian and you're just swatting the keys to the dirt and spitting on it for good measure just so everyone knows what a jerk you are. Then, when told how much of a jerk it makes you look like, you revel in it and strut about. "Yeah, that's me, King Jerk! Whaddayagonnadoboutit?"

So, King Jerk, the question is again put to you, why do you hate people like me and Ducky (who got screwed over by private health insurance in a way I hope I no one else ever has to be again)?

How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there.

quixotecoyote · 8th September 2009, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by mortimer

How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there.

I think people who support a status quo (or mild change) that they know will leave him and people like him going bankrupt while undergoing cancer treatments may not be King Jerks, but they're definitely royal pains.

We could have a health care system that covers everyone. We know it's possible. We can see other people doing it. Half the country would rather see people go bankrupt trying not to die because they aren't deserving enough, or because it's 'socialist', or because the system would let other undeserving through, or because they don't want to take the risk of a tax hike, or because they don't give enough of a **** and don't like the rest of the politics of those promoting it. I haven't seen a halfway decent argument against it yet. It's all baseless scaremongering speculation at best and death panel/video game nonsense at worst.

That level of disregard for life and well being is solid grounds for the 'jerk' tag in my opinion, although not productive to put out in the RL political debate because there are a lot of jerks out there.

Travis · 8th September 2009, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cobalt

BROAD HUGE BRUSH THAT COULD PAINT AN ENTIRE HOUSE WITH A SINGLE STROKE. I do revel in my assholery, but not when it comes to this. Sorry, bucko.

Good to know.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

One. I made no proposals. Two. There is nothing that I personally can do about your situation. **** sucks.

Provided you oppose universal coverage in Health Care Reform you could, gee, I don't know, stop doing that. That would help me.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I'm honestly sorry. Three. Relax. We're not all your enemy. Maybe some of us don't like how reform suddenly means CHANGE ****ING EVERYTHING WITHOUT ANY REGARD FOR WHAT IT MAY MEAN COST WISE OR WHAT HAVE YOU!

So it is just that you hate lots of change fast. Only you couch your concerns that it might, hypothetically, cost a lot. List me the countries that bankrupted themselves because of universal coverage then explain why you think the United States of America, a country that is still filled with lots of smart people, will somehow become the first country ever, to do this.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Cobalt, who hopes his insurance will cover his inevitable Brazilian Jiu Jitsu injuries.

Jiu Jitsu, I wish.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Travis, I don't hate you.

I just don't think that there's any inalienable right to life regardless of cost. I don't believe that as the costs of keeping me alive mount up--as they are sure to do as I get progressively older--that I should be entitled to receive more and more time and effort from my fellow citizens indefinitely.

Awesome, so you would be one of the people who would be totally cool with a hypothetical Death Panel.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Nor do I think that I should be entitled to cut more and more into the profits of for-profit health insurance companies, or into the revenues of private charities. And I don't think your claims and entitlements are any greater than mine.

So, you don't hate me but I don't have the right to exist?

Originally Posted by theprestige

I don't hate you, Travis, but I do hate your attitude and your arguments. If you'd like to come to my house, sit in my living room, and tell me to my face that you're entitled to $1,200 a month of my money and an automatic down payment of up to $50,000 more of my money on any procedure you might require, I'm perfectly happy to give your argument serious and sincere consideration. Likewise if you want to explain why you think your condition is would not or should not actually cost that much to insure or treat.

My own medical costs, at present, don't come anywhere near $1,200 a month but I find your idea that one should only be treated in proportion to what they have already paid into a system to be interesting. Let us suppose you, the prestige, have paid into your system $250,000 over the time you have been a party to it, but now suppose that your daughter (or son) suddenly develops a type of cancer that will cost $500,000 to treat. Do you just let them die because you don't think it's "fair" for others to pick up the outstanding cost?

Originally Posted by theprestige

But if all you're interested in doing is ranting on the Internet about how I must hate you, simply because I disagree with you about whether or not there's an inalienable human right to life at any cost (to other people), then there's probably not much we have to say to each other.

Well, call me a crazy loon, but I do think that people do, in fact, have an inalienable right to life. Crazy, I know.

Originally Posted by mortimer

How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there.

I'd have to live long enough for us to get to that bridge before we could start the "hating."

corplinx · 8th September 2009, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

What the hell do you people have against people like me?

That miserable excuse for a beard in your avatar.

David Wong · 8th September 2009, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

But if all you're interested in doing is ranting on the Internet about how I must hate you, simply because I disagree with you about whether or not there's an inalienable human right to life at any cost (to other people), then there's probably not much we have to say to each other.

I think you're a borderline sociopath.

David Wong · 8th September 2009, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by mortimer

How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there.

Right, not so much active hatred as an unimaginable level of selfishness and blindness to human suffering.

If somebody else has to die so you can buy something nice for yourself, well, them's the breaks, right?

Travis · 9th September 2009, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by corplinx

That miserable excuse for a beard in your avatar.

You should see the miserable excuse for a beard I get when I try to grow the whole thing out. Yikes!

Whiplash · 9th September 2009, 12:29 AM

Is not this whole thing an appeal to emotion or something?

No offense Travis, you are a good guy and smart and everything. I'm not trying to rip on you. But I don't see what any of that has to do with the actual facts at hand.. what ideas are good or bad.. the concerns some people have over public healthcare options...

You are just creating a huge strawman here, and appealing to emotion, in my opinion. I'm sorry if you have problems. I have problems too. I can't get health insurance through my work, and I have many issues including being bi-polar and having to see a psych that I pay for out of my own pocket. I don't like it. I wish it was different. But I don't pretend that my situation is the norm and that anyone who doesn't immediately want to bend over backwards to help me is somehow against me or selfish. I can recognize that there are many legitimate concerns with regards to it all.

Cobalt · 9th September 2009, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Good to know.

I love trolling jerks on other websites, but not here.

Originally Posted by Travis

Provided you oppose universal coverage in Health Care Reform you could, gee, I don't know, stop doing that. That would help me.

So if I up and support this is it going to magically fix all of your problems?

Originally Posted by Travis

So it is just that you hate lots of change fast. Only you couch your concerns that it might, hypothetically, cost a lot. List me the countries that bankrupted themselves because of universal coverage then explain why you think the United States of America, a country that is still filled with lots of smart people, will somehow become the first country ever, to do this.

Wait, hypothetically? How exactly is this in any way going to be a cheap endeavor to undertake? I didn't say anything about bankruptcy.

Look, to be quite honest, the problem I have with this whole debate is it seems there are only two sides you can be on.

Side A- The current way is the best, we cannot make any changes.
Side B- We must overhaul everything, the current way works for nobody, ever.

Why's there not a middle ground? By all means there should be some way for you to get the help you need. But for some reason the fact that the current system does work for some people goes completely forgotten.

Originally Posted by Travis

Jiu Jitsu, I wish.

It's only a matter of time. New guy slapped on an americana lock the other month, practically pulled my elbow off altogether.

Puppycow · 9th September 2009, 12:59 AM

Travis, I love you man. I hope health insurance reform gets passed asap.

Have you considered moving to Canada?

PogoPedant · 9th September 2009, 01:58 AM

... or really any other industrialized country?

we have pie

Travis · 9th September 2009, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

Is not this whole thing an appeal to emotion or something?

No offense Travis, you are a good guy and smart and everything. I'm not trying to rip on you. But I don't see what any of that has to do with the actual facts at hand.. what ideas are good or bad.. the concerns some people have over public healthcare options...

You are just creating a huge strawman here, and appealing to emotion, in my opinion. I'm sorry if you have problems. I have problems too. I can't get health insurance through my work, and I have many issues including being bi-polar and having to see a psych that I pay for out of my own pocket. I don't like it. I wish it was different. But I don't pretend that my situation is the norm and that anyone who doesn't immediately want to bend over backwards to help me is somehow against me or selfish. I can recognize that there are many legitimate concerns with regards to it all.

Really, what are your concerns about this that will mean I won't be covered?

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Wait, hypothetically? How exactly is this in any way going to be a cheap endeavor to undertake? I didn't say anything about bankruptcy.

What does it matter? The money is there for it.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Look, to be quite honest, the problem I have with this whole debate is it seems there are only two sides you can be on.

Side A- The current way is the best, we cannot make any changes.
Side B- We must overhaul everything, the current way works for nobody, ever.

Why's there not a middle ground?

Do you disagree with one of those positions?

Originally Posted by Cobalt

By all means there should be some way for you to get the help you need.

I could go to prison. We have universal coverage for all the inmates in our prison system.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

But for some reason the fact that the current system does work for some people goes completely forgotten.

Well, that's great that it works for them. I will be comforted by that thought should I need chemo therapy down the line.

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Travis, I love you man. I hope health insurance reform gets passed asap.

Have you considered moving to Canada?

I'm gonna try and fix things here first.

Originally Posted by PogoPedant

... or really any other industrialized country?

we have pie

Pie is good.

Rika · 9th September 2009, 05:21 AM

.. there is value in taking a middle position: reform healthcare as is, no public option. (Of course, that itself is a bitter political debate..)

Dr Adequate · 9th September 2009, 08:30 AM

This thread brings to mind that phrase about "the banality of evil".

If I ever stand on a riverbank watching a man drown and doing nothing to help him, it had damn well better be because I hate him like poison, and not just because I don't want to get my feet wet. Hatred would be more human.

Flo · 9th September 2009, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

This thread brings to mind that phrase about "the banality of evil".

If I ever stand on a riverbank watching a man drown and doing nothing to help him, it had damn well better be because I hate him like poison, and not just because I don't want to get my feet wet. Hatred would be more human.

Seconded. So far, the reasons against universal (access to) healthcare I've heard are pretty depressing.

volatile · 9th September 2009, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

you're entitled to $1,200 a month of my money and an automatic down payment of up to $50,000 more of my money on any procedure you might require,

Universal Healthcare doesn't work like that.

By that logic, you're "entitled" to money directly from the pockets of whoever else is in the same private healthcare pool as you, as they are to yours. If you're OK with Joe Bloggs, insured by the same private insurer as you, "picking your pocket" and "feeling entitled" to "your" money, what's the issue with public care? Unless you think all healthcare should be paid for out-of-pocket, and shun all insurance - public and private - on general principle, you're completely and utterly hypocritical.

Rasmus · 9th September 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by volatile

Universal Healthcare doesn't work like that.al.

Taxes in general don't. It's not "your" money just because it's part of your paycheck.

Travis · 9th September 2009, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Rika

.. there is value in taking a middle position: reform healthcare as is, no public option. (Of course, that itself is a bitter political debate..)

Except a public option is the only way a person such as myself could be insured. Everything else is just tweeking the insurance benefits/costs for those that already are being covered.

mortimer · 9th September 2009, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by David Wong

Right, not so much active hatred as an unimaginable level of selfishness and blindness to human suffering.

If somebody else has to die so you can buy something nice for yourself, well, them's the breaks, right?

Something nice, like food for my family? Have you ever bought something nice for yourself?

volatile · 9th September 2009, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Taxes in general don't. It's not "your" money just because it's part of your paycheck.

Quite.

Does ThePrestige think primary school kids are stealing his money whenever they show up for school? Or borrowers are stealing his money whenever they go to the library? Or that policing, fire and military costs are theft of his money?

It's a stupid argument. It's a very stupid argument.

volatile · 9th September 2009, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by mortimer

Something nice, like food for my family? Have you ever bought something nice for yourself?

See, the good thing about UHC - and, indeed, taxes in general - is that they really don't force a choice between tax take and food on the table. You have to be earning above a certain threshold to start paying tax, for a start.

What was your objection, again? You think America bringing in a UHC system (which, if you need reminding, other countries provide for less in tax take than is currently being "stolen" from you) will mean you won't be able to feed your family? Seriously?

mortimer · 9th September 2009, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by volatile

See, the good thing about UHC - and, indeed, taxes in general - is that they really don't force a choice between tax take and food on the table. You have to be earning above a certain threshold to start paying tax, for a start.

What was your objection, again? You think America bringing in a UHC system (which, if you need reminding, other countries provide for less in tax take than is currently being "stolen" from you) will mean you won't be able to feed your family? Seriously?

I don't think I voiced an objection, other than being called a King Jerk for not supporting the public option.

I am completely in favor of single-payer UHC. I am completely against any of the bills floating around right now, which I believe will only exacerbate our health care problems.

thaiboxerken · 9th September 2009, 09:18 AM

They don't hate you, Travis. They just don't give a damn.

daredelvis · 9th September 2009, 09:26 AM

I am confused. I have been told by many people on this board that the preexisting condition clause is to keep sneaky people like you from just signing up for insurance immediately before you get sick (or immediately after diagnosis), and getting rid of it right after your are cured. Basicly that people like you are trying to cheat the upstanding insurance industry. Are you telling me that these people are full of poop? Interesting.

Daredelvis

theprestige · 9th September 2009, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

So, you don't hate me but I don't have the right to exist?

You have a right to exist. I just don't agree that you have a right to burden others with an arbitrarily high cost for your existence.

Quote:

My own medical costs, at present, don't come anywhere near $1,200 a month but I find your idea that one should only be treated in proportion to what they have already paid into a system to be interesting. Let us suppose you, the prestige, have paid into your system $250,000 over the time you have been a party to it, but now suppose that your daughter (or son) suddenly develops a type of cancer that will cost $500,000 to treat. Do you just let them die because you don't think it's "fair" for others to pick up the outstanding cost?

I don't think it's fair for other people to pick up some arbitrarily high cost for my survival, or the survival of people (like my children) for whose survival I'm entirely responsible. There comes a point in every life where no investment of resources is enough to ensure survival. There comes a point, much earlier, where any investment necessarily means sacrificing some other good for some number of other people. For some people these points come sooner in life. For others these points come later.

And why $500,000? Why shouldn't I and my children be entitled to $1 million? Or $10 million? Or $1 billion? Where do you draw the line, Travis? At what point does the cost of keeping you alive absolve everybody else of the burden?

Personally, I don't think there is a line. I think, simply put, that you have a right to your own life, to make it the best you can with the luck you have. And I think I have exactly the same right. I don't think either of us has a right to compel anybody else to make either of our lives better than we ourselves can make it on our own.

Also, your entire argument boils down to an appeal to emotion. It's fail right out of the gate.

Quote:

Well, call me a crazy loon, but I do think that people do, in fact, have an inalienable right to life. Crazy, I know.

I don't think that's crazy at all. What I do think is crazy is the idea that people have an inalienable right to stick other people with the bill for their own survival.

If you were to argue that we should foot your bill because society as a whole benefits from such government aid programs, that's an argument I'd listen to. If you were to appeal to my charitable impulses, arguing that giving succor to the needy is somehow good for the soul, that's an argument I'd listen to. But as long as your argument is to demonize me for disagreeing that you have an inalienable right to compel me to make your life longer or less sucky... Not so much.

volatile · 9th September 2009, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I don't think either of us has a right to compel anybody else to make either of our lives better than we ourselves can make it on our own.

So you're against private insurance on principle, then?

thaiboxerken · 9th September 2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

But as long as your argument is to demonize me for disagreeing that you have an inalienable right to compel me to make your life longer or less sucky... Not so much.

There's no need for him to demonize you, you're doing quiet a fine job of it yourself when you make statement's such as:

Quote:

You have a right to exist. I just don't agree that you have a right to burden others with an arbitrarily high cost for your existence.

I truly can't understand how a person can see another person hanging off the edge of a cliff and just walk on by.

Upchurch · 9th September 2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Well, call me a crazy loon, but I do think that people do, in fact, have an inalienable right to life. Crazy, I know.

You and the crazy bastards who wrote this:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Down right un-American....

mortimer · 9th September 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I truly can't understand how a person can see another person hanging off the edge of a cliff and just walk on by.

I suspect we are all capable of walking on by, depending on how much help that person needs.

Undesired Walrus · 9th September 2009, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I don't think either of us has a right to compel anybody else to make either of our lives better than we ourselves can make it on our own.

So, what is your position on public schools?

WildCat · 9th September 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Except a public option is the only way a person such as myself could be insured. Everything else is just tweeking the insurance benefits/costs for those that already are being covered.

No, it's not. Other countries have figured out how to insure people like you without any public option at all. The Netherlands for example.

Undesired Walrus · 9th September 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by daredelvis

I am confused. I have been told by many people on this board that the preexisting condition clause is to keep sneaky people like you from just signing up for insurance immediately before you get sick (or immediately after diagnosis), and getting rid of it right after your are cured. Basicly that people like you are trying to cheat the upstanding insurance industry. Are you telling me that these people are full of poop? Interesting.

Daredelvis

I'm confused too. I thought, as several people on this forum have stressed, that Insurance companies refusing to cover you due to family history and/or pre-existing conditions was a myth?

Undesired Walrus · 9th September 2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

The Netherlands for example.

Doesn't Japan (A UHC country) have (in proportion) more private for-profit hospitals than the US does?

Tsukasa Buddha · 9th September 2009, 12:14 PM

I, for one, hate your freedoms. That's why I wish to enslave you in socialized medicine!

8th September 2009, 07:37 PM	#1
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	Opponents of health care reform: why do you hate me? An Open Letter, As some might recall from back when I had the rabies scare, I am uninsured. This is because I am, in the Health Insurance Providers words, "uninsurable" thanks to several pre-existing conditions and a family history chock full of deadly cancers. Sure Kaiser said they would if I gave them $1,200 a month with a yearly $50,000 deductible and a clause that they would never pay for cancer treatments (though they would pay for mitigating side effects of cancer treatments ) which made that offer effectively useless. Back when I was trying to figure out how I might get the $3,000 post exposure rabies treatment I was told very starkly how I could get health insurance 1) win the lottery or 2) quit my job, get a woman pregnant and end up on government assistance. How insane is it that those are my only options? How insane is it that a proposal that would create a system where people with pre-existing conditions and high risk histories could get covered is denounced as "evil?" What the hell do you people have against people like me? What did we ever do to you? Are you so insecure in your place in life that you lay awake at night worrying that "undeserving" people might just have a right to basic medical care? Have you become so insanely polarized that anything the other side proposes simply must be bad? Has the coddling you've received as the coveted NASCAR Dad demographic gone to your head? Have you read too many anarchist pamphlets being handed out by the screaming lunatic on the corner who still thinks Carter is President? I mean we're getting handed the keys to a program that is more humane and egalitarian and you're just swatting the keys to the dirt and spitting on it for good measure just so everyone knows what a jerk you are. Then, when told how much of a jerk it makes you look like, you revel in it and strut about. "Yeah, that's me, King Jerk! Whaddayagonnadoboutit?" So, King Jerk, the question is again put to you, why do you hate people like me and Ducky (who got screwed over by private health insurance in a way I hope I no one else ever has to be again)? Sure, you might protest that you only hate the existing proposals but when your counter-proposals consist of nothing but tax credits for what people pay for private health insurance I can't help but shake my head because it misses the point that private health insurance companies refuse to cover some people and until I hear about something that won't leave me laying awake at night worrying about the fact that when I get cancer (and in my position it is only a matter of time) I won't have anyway to pay to get it treated. Travis, whose been left twisting in the health care wind.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Nominate February Stundies. Vote in the January Stundie Finals!

8th September 2009, 08:14 PM	#2
boooeee Dart Fener Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Lando System Posts: 1,867	Travis - Have you looked into MRMIP? The coverage isn't fantastic and the rates aren't cheap, but it's intended for people who can't get approved for coverage in the individual market. Another option is to find an employer that provides health insurance (easier said than done). You can't be turned away for health reasons under employer-based coverage. Even if healthcare reform is passed, it may not kick in until 2013, which is a long time to twist in the wind.
	__________________ "I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress." - Daniel Boorstin "When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems look like squirrels." - NoZed Avenger

8th September 2009, 08:16 PM	#3
Cobalt Shōryū-reppa Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 800	Originally Posted by Travis An Open Letter, As some might recall from back when I had the rabies scare, I am uninsured. This is because I am, in the Health Insurance Providers words, "uninsurable" thanks to several pre-existing conditions and a family history chock full of deadly cancers. That's a shame, doesn't mean I hate you. Originally Posted by Travis Sure Kaiser said they would if I gave them $1,200 a month with a yearly $50,000 deductible and a clause that they would never pay for cancer treatments (though they would pay for mitigating side effects of cancer treatments ) which made that offer effectively useless. Bummer, but I stil don't hate you. Originally Posted by Travis Back when I was trying to figure out how I might get the $3,000 post exposure rabies treatment I was told very starkly how I could get health insurance 1) win the lottery or 2) quit my job, get a woman pregnant and end up on government assistance. Maybe they hated you? Originally Posted by Travis How insane is it that those are my only options? How insane is it that a proposal that would create a system where people with pre-existing conditions and high risk histories could get covered is denounced as "evil?" Very insane, I still don't hate you. Originally Posted by Travis What the hell do you people have against people like me? Your attitude towards me when I've done promptly dick to you is a put off, gotta say. Originally Posted by Travis What did we ever do to you? Anally raped my mother and poured sugar in my gas tank. I'm just **in' with you, nothing. Originally Posted by Travis Are you so insecure in your place in life that you lay awake at night worrying that "undeserving" people might just have a right to basic medical care? I lay awake at night because I drink too much caffeine. Originally Posted by Travis** Have you become so insanely polarized that anything the other side proposes simply must be bad? Oh yeah man. Originally Posted by Travis Has the coddling you've received as the coveted NASCAR Dad demographic gone to your head? lolwut Originally Posted by Travis Have you read too many anarchist pamphlets being handed out by the screaming lunatic on the corner who still thinks Carter is President? Okay, for real, you should probably relax. Originally Posted by Travis I mean we're getting handed the keys to a program that is more humane and egalitarian and you're just swatting the keys to the dirt and spitting on it for good measure just so everyone knows what a jerk you are. BROAD HUGE BRUSH THAT COULD PAINT AN ENTIRE HOUSE WITH A SINGLE STROKE. Originally Posted by Travis Then, when told how much of a jerk it makes you look like, you revel in it and strut about. "Yeah, that's me, King Jerk! Whaddayagonnadoboutit?" I do revel in my assholery, but not when it comes to this. Sorry, bucko. Originally Posted by Travis So, King Jerk, the question is again put to you, why do you hate people like me and Ducky (who got screwed over by private health insurance in a way I hope I no one else ever has to be again)? Oh, silly, because I can. Originally Posted by Travis Sure, you might protest that you only hate the existing proposals but when your counter-proposals consist of nothing but tax credits for what people pay for private health insurance I can't help but shake my head because it misses the point that private health insurance companies refuse to cover some people and until I hear about something that won't leave me laying awake at night worrying about the fact that when I get cancer (and in my position it is only a matter of time) I won't have anyway to pay to get it treated. One. I made no proposals. Two. There is nothing that I personally can do about your situation. ** sucks. I'm honestly sorry. Three. Relax. We're not all your enemy. Maybe some of us don't like how reform suddenly means CHANGE ING EVERYTHING WITHOUT ANY REGARD FOR WHAT IT MAY MEAN COST WISE OR WHAT HAVE YOU! Originally Posted by Travis** Travis, whose been left twisting in the health care wind. Cobalt, who hopes his insurance will cover his inevitable Brazilian Jiu Jitsu injuries.
Cobalt Shōryū-reppa Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 800	__________________ Some say he's illegal in 17 US states, and that he blinks horizontally....

8th September 2009, 09:23 PM	#5
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 24,983	So it's not hatred, just pure selfishness and greed, is that it?
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

8th September 2009, 09:25 PM	#6
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 24,983	And btw, if either theprestige or Cobalt have employer-provided health insurance Travis is subsidizing it through the tax breaks your employer gets. Isn't it ironic?
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

8th September 2009, 09:15 PM	#4
theprestige Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,099	Travis, I don't hate you. I just don't think that there's any inalienable right to life regardless of cost. I don't believe that as the costs of keeping me alive mount up--as they are sure to do as I get progressively older--that I should be entitled to receive more and more time and effort from my fellow citizens indefinitely. Nor do I think that I should be entitled to cut more and more into the profits of for-profit health insurance companies, or into the revenues of private charities. And I don't think your claims and entitlements are any greater than mine. I don't hate you, Travis, but I do hate your attitude and your arguments. If you'd like to come to my house, sit in my living room, and tell me to my face that you're entitled to $1,200 a month of my money and an automatic down payment of up to $50,000 more of my money on any procedure you might require, I'm perfectly happy to give your argument serious and sincere consideration. Likewise if you want to explain why you think your condition is would not or should not actually cost that much to insure or treat. But if all you're interested in doing is ranting on the Internet about how I must hate you, simply because I disagree with you about whether or not there's an inalienable human right to life at any cost (to other people), then there's probably not much we have to say to each other.

8th September 2009, 09:28 PM	#7
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,897	Originally Posted by Travis I mean we're getting handed the keys to a program that is more humane and egalitarian and you're just swatting the keys to the dirt and spitting on it for good measure just so everyone knows what a jerk you are. Then, when told how much of a jerk it makes you look like, you revel in it and strut about. "Yeah, that's me, King Jerk! Whaddayagonnadoboutit?" So, King Jerk, the question is again put to you, why do you hate people like me and Ducky (who got screwed over by private health insurance in a way I hope I no one else ever has to be again)? How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there.
	__________________ Dylan, showing his true colors: "Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2. Us: 1. Haters: 0. :lol:"

8th September 2009, 09:56 PM	#8
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,300	Originally Posted by mortimer How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there. I think people who support a status quo (or mild change) that they know will leave him and people like him going bankrupt while undergoing cancer treatments may not be King Jerks, but they're definitely royal pains. We could have a health care system that covers everyone. We know it's possible. We can see other people doing it. Half the country would rather see people go bankrupt trying not to die because they aren't deserving enough, or because it's 'socialist', or because the system would let other undeserving through, or because they don't want to take the risk of a tax hike, or because they don't give enough of a **** and don't like the rest of the politics of those promoting it. I haven't seen a halfway decent argument against it yet. It's all baseless scaremongering speculation at best and death panel/video game nonsense at worst. That level of disregard for life and well being is solid grounds for the 'jerk' tag in my opinion, although not productive to put out in the RL political debate because there are a lot of jerks out there.
	__________________ Ladewig: I'll start worrying about the media's liberal bias the day I hear of labor negotiations described as management demands and union concessions. Thank you for the avatar xkcd.

8th September 2009, 10:51 PM	#9
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	Originally Posted by Cobalt BROAD HUGE BRUSH THAT COULD PAINT AN ENTIRE HOUSE WITH A SINGLE STROKE. I do revel in my assholery, but not when it comes to this. Sorry, bucko. Good to know. Originally Posted by Cobalt One. I made no proposals. Two. There is nothing that I personally can do about your situation. **** sucks. Provided you oppose universal coverage in Health Care Reform you could, gee, I don't know, stop doing that. That would help me. Originally Posted by Cobalt I'm honestly sorry. Three. Relax. We're not all your enemy. Maybe some of us don't like how reform suddenly means CHANGE **ING EVERYTHING WITHOUT ANY REGARD FOR WHAT IT MAY MEAN COST WISE OR WHAT HAVE YOU! So it is just that you hate lots of change fast. Only you couch your concerns that it might, hypothetically, cost a lot. List me the countries that bankrupted themselves because of universal coverage then explain why you think the United States of America, a country that is still filled with lots of smart people, will somehow become the first country ever, to do this. Originally Posted by Cobalt Cobalt, who hopes his insurance will cover his inevitable Brazilian Jiu Jitsu injuries. Jiu Jitsu, I wish. Originally Posted by theprestige Travis, I don't hate you. I just don't think that there's any inalienable right to life regardless of cost. I don't believe that as the costs of keeping me alive mount up--as they are sure to do as I get progressively older--that I should be entitled to receive more and more time and effort from my fellow citizens indefinitely. Awesome, so you would be one of the people who would be totally cool with a hypothetical Death Panel. Originally Posted by theprestige Nor do I think that I should be entitled to cut more and more into the profits of for-profit health insurance companies, or into the revenues of private charities. And I don't think your claims and entitlements are any greater than mine. So, you don't hate me but I don't have the right to exist? Originally Posted by theprestige I don't hate you, Travis, but I do hate your attitude and your arguments. If you'd like to come to my house, sit in my living room, and tell me to my face that you're entitled to $1,200 a month of my money and an automatic down payment of up to $50,000 more of my money on any procedure you might require, I'm perfectly happy to give your argument serious and sincere consideration. Likewise if you want to explain why you think your condition is would not or should not actually cost that much to insure or treat. My own medical costs, at present, don't come anywhere near $1,200 a month but I find your idea that one should only be treated in proportion to what they have already paid into a system to be interesting. Let us suppose you, the prestige, have paid into your system $250,000 over the time you have been a party to it, but now suppose that your daughter (or son) suddenly develops a type of cancer that will cost $500,000 to treat. Do you just let them die because you don't think it's "fair" for others to pick up the outstanding cost? Originally Posted by theprestige But if all you're interested in doing is ranting on the Internet about how I must hate you, simply because I disagree with you about whether or not there's an inalienable human right to life at any cost (to other people), then there's probably not much we have to say to each other. Well, call me a crazy loon, but I do think that people do, in fact, have an inalienable right to life. Crazy, I know. Originally Posted by mortimer** How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there. I'd have to live long enough for us to get to that bridge before we could start the "hating."
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Nominate February Stundies. Vote in the January Stundie Finals!

8th September 2009, 11:44 PM	#10
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,839	Originally Posted by Travis What the hell do you people have against people like me? That miserable excuse for a beard in your avatar.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,839	__________________ Terribad Moderation Creates Stupibad Posting

8th September 2009, 11:49 PM	#11
David Wong Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,697	Originally Posted by theprestige But if all you're interested in doing is ranting on the Internet about how I must hate you, simply because I disagree with you about whether or not there's an inalienable human right to life at any cost (to other people), then there's probably not much we have to say to each other. I think you're a borderline sociopath.
	__________________ Author, John Dies at the End. Available now in hardcover. Editor, Cracked.com.

8th September 2009, 11:50 PM	#12
David Wong Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,697	Originally Posted by mortimer How could I hate you when I don't even know you? Granted, if I did get to know you, I would likely grow to hate you (based solely on this post), but let's cross that bridge when and if we get there. Right, not so much active hatred as an unimaginable level of selfishness and blindness to human suffering. If somebody else has to die so you can buy something nice for yourself, well, them's the breaks, right?
	__________________ Author, John Dies at the End. Available now in hardcover. Editor, Cracked.com.

9th September 2009, 12:11 AM	#13
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	Originally Posted by corplinx That miserable excuse for a beard in your avatar. You should see the miserable excuse for a beard I get when I try to grow the whole thing out. Yikes!
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Nominate February Stundies. Vote in the January Stundie Finals!

9th September 2009, 12:29 AM	#14
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 4,005	Is not this whole thing an appeal to emotion or something? No offense Travis, you are a good guy and smart and everything. I'm not trying to rip on you. But I don't see what any of that has to do with the actual facts at hand.. what ideas are good or bad.. the concerns some people have over public healthcare options... You are just creating a huge strawman here, and appealing to emotion, in my opinion. I'm sorry if you have problems. I have problems too. I can't get health insurance through my work, and I have many issues including being bi-polar and having to see a psych that I pay for out of my own pocket. I don't like it. I wish it was different. But I don't pretend that my situation is the norm and that anyone who doesn't immediately want to bend over backwards to help me is somehow against me or selfish. I can recognize that there are many legitimate concerns with regards to it all.
	__________________ "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" - The Prisoner "Look, I'm a tenth generation A.I. hologramic computer.. I'm not your Mum" - Red Dwarf "Ken Buddah... a smile, two bangs, and a religion" - Monty Python "A little hard work never killed anyone... but I'm not taking any chances" - Upright Citizens Brigade

9th September 2009, 12:35 AM	#15
Cobalt Shōryū-reppa Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 800	Originally Posted by Travis Good to know. I love trolling jerks on other websites, but not here. Originally Posted by Travis Provided you oppose universal coverage in Health Care Reform you could, gee, I don't know, stop doing that. That would help me. So if I up and support this is it going to magically fix all of your problems? Originally Posted by Travis So it is just that you hate lots of change fast. Only you couch your concerns that it might, hypothetically, cost a lot. List me the countries that bankrupted themselves because of universal coverage then explain why you think the United States of America, a country that is still filled with lots of smart people, will somehow become the first country ever, to do this. Wait, hypothetically? How exactly is this in any way going to be a cheap endeavor to undertake? I didn't say anything about bankruptcy. Look, to be quite honest, the problem I have with this whole debate is it seems there are only two sides you can be on. Side A- The current way is the best, we cannot make any changes. Side B- We must overhaul everything, the current way works for nobody, ever. Why's there not a middle ground? By all means there should be some way for you to get the help you need. But for some reason the fact that the current system does work for some people goes completely forgotten. Originally Posted by Travis Jiu Jitsu, I wish. It's only a matter of time. New guy slapped on an americana lock the other month, practically pulled my elbow off altogether.
Cobalt Shōryū-reppa Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 800	__________________ Some say he's illegal in 17 US states, and that he blinks horizontally....

9th September 2009, 12:59 AM	#16
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 6,323	Travis, I love you man. I hope health insurance reform gets passed asap. Have you considered moving to Canada?
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous Religions are God's way of telling us that He doesn't exist. -Pat Condell

9th September 2009, 01:58 AM	#17
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 693	... or really any other industrialized country? we have pie
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 693

9th September 2009, 04:13 AM	#18
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	Originally Posted by Whiplash Is not this whole thing an appeal to emotion or something? No offense Travis, you are a good guy and smart and everything. I'm not trying to rip on you. But I don't see what any of that has to do with the actual facts at hand.. what ideas are good or bad.. the concerns some people have over public healthcare options... You are just creating a huge strawman here, and appealing to emotion, in my opinion. I'm sorry if you have problems. I have problems too. I can't get health insurance through my work, and I have many issues including being bi-polar and having to see a psych that I pay for out of my own pocket. I don't like it. I wish it was different. But I don't pretend that my situation is the norm and that anyone who doesn't immediately want to bend over backwards to help me is somehow against me or selfish. I can recognize that there are many legitimate concerns with regards to it all. Really, what are your concerns about this that will mean I won't be covered? Originally Posted by Cobalt Wait, hypothetically? How exactly is this in any way going to be a cheap endeavor to undertake? I didn't say anything about bankruptcy. What does it matter? The money is there for it. Originally Posted by Cobalt Look, to be quite honest, the problem I have with this whole debate is it seems there are only two sides you can be on. Side A- The current way is the best, we cannot make any changes. Side B- We must overhaul everything, the current way works for nobody, ever. Why's there not a middle ground? Do you disagree with one of those positions? Originally Posted by Cobalt By all means there should be some way for you to get the help you need. I could go to prison. We have universal coverage for all the inmates in our prison system. Originally Posted by Cobalt But for some reason the fact that the current system does work for some people goes completely forgotten. Well, that's great that it works for them. I will be comforted by that thought should I need chemo therapy down the line. Originally Posted by Puppycow Travis, I love you man. I hope health insurance reform gets passed asap. Have you considered moving to Canada? I'm gonna try and fix things here first. Originally Posted by PogoPedant ... or really any other industrialized country? we have pie Pie is good.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Nominate February Stundies. Vote in the January Stundie Finals!

9th September 2009, 05:21 AM	#19
Rika Guardian of the Setting Sun Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 3,257	.. there is value in taking a middle position: reform healthcare as is, no public option. (Of course, that itself is a bitter political debate..)
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne! rha ki ga gran wael wassa Rrha ki ra chs hymmnos mea Rrha ki ra enne sos yor Was yea ra chs hymmnos, la glasden yehah

9th September 2009, 08:30 AM	#20
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,902	This thread brings to mind that phrase about "the banality of evil". If I ever stand on a riverbank watching a man drown and doing nothing to help him, it had damn well better be because I hate him like poison, and not just because I don't want to get my feet wet. Hatred would be more human.

9th September 2009, 08:53 AM	#21
Flo Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Massongy, France Posts: 1,967	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate This thread brings to mind that phrase about "the banality of evil". If I ever stand on a riverbank watching a man drown and doing nothing to help him, it had damn well better be because I hate him like poison, and not just because I don't want to get my feet wet. Hatred would be more human. Seconded. So far, the reasons against universal (access to) healthcare I've heard are pretty depressing.
	__________________ "Let me explain the order of things for you. There's the aristocracy, the upper class, middle class, working class, dumb animals, waiters, creeping things, head lice, people who eat packet soup, and then you." (Chef)

9th September 2009, 08:59 AM	#22
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Originally Posted by theprestige you're entitled to $1,200 a month of my money and an automatic down payment of up to $50,000 more of my money on any procedure you might require, Universal Healthcare doesn't work like that. By that logic, you're "entitled" to money directly from the pockets of whoever else is in the same private healthcare pool as you, as they are to yours. If you're OK with Joe Bloggs, insured by the same private insurer as you, "picking your pocket" and "feeling entitled" to "your" money, what's the issue with public care? Unless you think all healthcare should be paid for out-of-pocket, and shun all insurance - public and private - on general principle, you're completely and utterly hypocritical.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

9th September 2009, 09:05 AM	#23
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	Originally Posted by volatile Universal Healthcare doesn't work like that.al. Taxes in general don't. It's not "your" money just because it's part of your paycheck.
Rasmus Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,627	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

9th September 2009, 09:07 AM	#24
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	Originally Posted by Rika .. there is value in taking a middle position: reform healthcare as is, no public option. (Of course, that itself is a bitter political debate..) Except a public option is the only way a person such as myself could be insured. Everything else is just tweeking the insurance benefits/costs for those that already are being covered.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Nominate February Stundies. Vote in the January Stundie Finals!

9th September 2009, 09:10 AM	#25
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,897	Originally Posted by David Wong Right, not so much active hatred as an unimaginable level of selfishness and blindness to human suffering. If somebody else has to die so you can buy something nice for yourself, well, them's the breaks, right? Something nice, like food for my family? Have you ever bought something nice for yourself?
	__________________ Dylan, showing his true colors: "Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2. Us: 1. Haters: 0. :lol:"

9th September 2009, 09:12 AM	#26
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Originally Posted by Rasmus Taxes in general don't. It's not "your" money just because it's part of your paycheck. Quite. Does ThePrestige think primary school kids are stealing his money whenever they show up for school? Or borrowers are stealing his money whenever they go to the library? Or that policing, fire and military costs are theft of his money? It's a stupid argument. It's a very stupid argument.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

9th September 2009, 09:15 AM	#27
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Originally Posted by mortimer Something nice, like food for my family? Have you ever bought something nice for yourself? See, the good thing about UHC - and, indeed, taxes in general - is that they really don't force a choice between tax take and food on the table. You have to be earning above a certain threshold to start paying tax, for a start. What was your objection, again? You think America bringing in a UHC system (which, if you need reminding, other countries provide for less in tax take than is currently being "stolen" from you) will mean you won't be able to feed your family? Seriously?
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

9th September 2009, 09:18 AM	#28
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,897	Originally Posted by volatile See, the good thing about UHC - and, indeed, taxes in general - is that they really don't force a choice between tax take and food on the table. You have to be earning above a certain threshold to start paying tax, for a start. What was your objection, again? You think America bringing in a UHC system (which, if you need reminding, other countries provide for less in tax take than is currently being "stolen" from you) will mean you won't be able to feed your family? Seriously? I don't think I voiced an objection, other than being called a King Jerk for not supporting the public option. I am completely in favor of single-payer UHC. I am completely against any of the bills floating around right now, which I believe will only exacerbate our health care problems.
	__________________ Dylan, showing his true colors: "Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2. Us: 1. Haters: 0. :lol:"

9th September 2009, 09:18 AM	#29
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	They don't hate you, Travis. They just don't give a damn.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

9th September 2009, 09:26 AM	#30
daredelvis Muse Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 820	I am confused. I have been told by many people on this board that the preexisting condition clause is to keep sneaky people like you from just signing up for insurance immediately before you get sick (or immediately after diagnosis), and getting rid of it right after your are cured. Basicly that people like you are trying to cheat the upstanding insurance industry. Are you telling me that these people are full of poop? Interesting. Daredelvis
daredelvis Muse Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 820	__________________ We all like to think we are like Jez, or Super Hans but in reality we are all more like Mark than we would ever admit.

9th September 2009, 09:53 AM	#31
theprestige Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,099	Originally Posted by Travis So, you don't hate me but I don't have the right to exist? You have a right to exist. I just don't agree that you have a right to burden others with an arbitrarily high cost for your existence. Quote: My own medical costs, at present, don't come anywhere near $1,200 a month but I find your idea that one should only be treated in proportion to what they have already paid into a system to be interesting. Let us suppose you, the prestige, have paid into your system $250,000 over the time you have been a party to it, but now suppose that your daughter (or son) suddenly develops a type of cancer that will cost $500,000 to treat. Do you just let them die because you don't think it's "fair" for others to pick up the outstanding cost? I don't think it's fair for other people to pick up some arbitrarily high cost for my survival, or the survival of people (like my children) for whose survival I'm entirely responsible. There comes a point in every life where no investment of resources is enough to ensure survival. There comes a point, much earlier, where any investment necessarily means sacrificing some other good for some number of other people. For some people these points come sooner in life. For others these points come later. And why $500,000? Why shouldn't I and my children be entitled to $1 million? Or $10 million? Or $1 billion? Where do you draw the line, Travis? At what point does the cost of keeping you alive absolve everybody else of the burden? Personally, I don't think there is a line. I think, simply put, that you have a right to your own life, to make it the best you can with the luck you have. And I think I have exactly the same right. I don't think either of us has a right to compel anybody else to make either of our lives better than we ourselves can make it on our own. Also, your entire argument boils down to an appeal to emotion. It's fail right out of the gate. Quote: Well, call me a crazy loon, but I do think that people do, in fact, have an inalienable right to life. Crazy, I know. I don't think that's crazy at all. What I do think is crazy is the idea that people have an inalienable right to stick other people with the bill for their own survival. If you were to argue that we should foot your bill because society as a whole benefits from such government aid programs, that's an argument I'd listen to. If you were to appeal to my charitable impulses, arguing that giving succor to the needy is somehow good for the soul, that's an argument I'd listen to. But as long as your argument is to demonize me for disagreeing that you have an inalienable right to compel me to make your life longer or less sucky... Not so much.
	Last edited by theprestige; 9th September 2009 at 09:55 AM.

9th September 2009, 09:57 AM	#32
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Originally Posted by theprestige I don't think either of us has a right to compel anybody else to make either of our lives better than we ourselves can make it on our own. So you're against private insurance on principle, then?
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

9th September 2009, 10:02 AM	#33
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 13,315	Originally Posted by theprestige But as long as your argument is to demonize me for disagreeing that you have an inalienable right to compel me to make your life longer or less sucky... Not so much. There's no need for him to demonize you, you're doing quiet a fine job of it yourself when you make statement's such as: Quote: You have a right to exist. I just don't agree that you have a right to burden others with an arbitrarily high cost for your existence. I truly can't understand how a person can see another person hanging off the edge of a cliff and just walk on by.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

9th September 2009, 11:34 AM	#34
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 19,555	Originally Posted by Travis Well, call me a crazy loon, but I do think that people do, in fact, have an inalienable right to life. Crazy, I know. You and the crazy bastards who wrote this: Quote: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Down right un-American....

9th September 2009, 11:36 AM	#35
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,897	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I truly can't understand how a person can see another person hanging off the edge of a cliff and just walk on by. I suspect we are all capable of walking on by, depending on how much help that person needs.
	__________________ Dylan, showing his true colors: "Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2. Us: 1. Haters: 0. :lol:"