Psychic Evening At Library

grunion · 15th September 2009, 12:19 PM

My local public library generally hosts a pretty good roster of local musicians, finance lectures, the occassional magic show for the kiddies, knitting classes, and bingo night once in awhile. But they just announced "Afterlife With Adrienne" in which Adrienne "attempts to reconnect you with loved ones who have passed." They pay a small stipend to the performers, who are generally permitted to sell their CDs and advertise their services in exchange for the program.

I dashed off this email to the library director:

Quote:

Dear Library Director,

I've been an ardent supporter of the [local] Library for many years. I've come out to support the budget votes, attend meetings, and of course bring my family to support many of the rich and fun programs that the library offers. I was quite dismayed and disgusted to stop by the library this afternoon to find that among the mix of music programs and educational lectures you are planning for the fall, the library now supports scam artists that profess psychic abilities, and are giving them a venue (and presumably payment from our tax monies).

"Afterlife With Adrienne," scheduled for October 27th, invites library patrons to a session with some woman at the library who claims to "reconnect you with loved ones who have passed" to "resolve questions one may have about the afterlife." This is a crock and a scam. There has never been any evidence that anyone has the powers that she professes in this flier. One expects she will use the same tired cold reading techniques used by so many "psychic" scam artists for hundreds of years, in an attempt to drum up business for herself.

The library's mission is a noble one. You have the public's trust to foster culture and learning in our community. Instead you are furthering stupidity and pseudoscience with this program. I urge you to cancel this program and let "Adrienne" figure out some other way to convince the gullible among us of her magic super powers, without the support of our tax dollars and our library's hard won reputation.

Truly yours,

I don't expect that I will be successful in this effort but at least I feel better making my feelings known. I may even show up that night desperately looking for a connection with my dear departed great aunt Doris. Has anyone had any success trying to embarrass these small-time hucksters? I'd love to hear of any ideas.

LibraryLady · 15th September 2009, 12:31 PM

I will be very curious to see the reply. I'm sure you'll get one. May I ask where your library is located?

Baby Nemesis · 15th September 2009, 12:31 PM

You should have given him a couple of links to articles on cold reading techniques. He might not know what you're talking about otherwise and might think you haven't given any proof that this person is a scam artist.

bookitty · 15th September 2009, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by grunion

My local public library generally hosts a pretty good roster of local musicians, finance lectures, the occassional magic show for the kiddies, knitting classes, and bingo night once in awhile. But they just announced "Afterlife With Adrienne" in which Adrienne "attempts to reconnect you with loved ones who have passed." They pay a small stipend to the performers, who are generally permitted to sell their CDs and advertise their services in exchange for the program.

I dashed off this email to the library director:

I don't expect that I will be successful in this effort but at least I feel better making my feelings known. I may even show up that night desperately looking for a connection with my dear departed great aunt Doris. Has anyone had any success trying to embarrass these small-time hucksters? I'd love to hear of any ideas.

Usually extra curricular activities are paid for by the Friends of the Library group and their private fund raising. So there's a good chance that no tax dollars were used here.

Doesn't matter though, the funds are raised from donations. How would those who donated feel if they knew their money was being used for a scam?

This would be a lovely opportunity to set up a counterpoint scenario. Have a skeptic there, recording the whole thing who could do a Q & A afterwords. Ask people how many names they thought were called out, explain cold reading, that sort of thing.

Unfortunately, that sort of thing takes time to set up and is confrontational. Perhaps you can check the libraries resources and see what books they have to address this sort of thing. Make up a small list of recommendations.

grunion · 15th September 2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by LibraryLady

I will be very curious to see the reply. I'm sure you'll get one. May I ask where your library is located?

I hope I do, and I will post it here. The library is in Suffolk County, NY (in Long Island.)

grunion · 15th September 2009, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by bookitty

This would be a lovely opportunity to set up a counterpoint scenario. Have a skeptic there, recording the whole thing who could do a Q & A afterwords. Ask people how many names they thought were called out, explain cold reading, that sort of thing.

That's a really good idea but I don't think I could do it justice. Are there any Long Island area skeptics interested in assisting with this? I could try to get us equal time on the bill. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't turn the audience's sympathies against us.

bookitty · 15th September 2009, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by grunion

That's a really good idea but I don't think I could do it justice. Are there any Long Island area skeptics interested in assisting with this? I could try to get us equal time on the bill. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't turn the audience's sympathies against us.

It's not that difficult. Outside of those who are vehemently against or rabidly for, people haven't really thought about it. Maybe they think it's amazing but they wouldn't call a psychic on their own.

If it's presented well, most people who will find the explanation as intriguing as the trick. All you need to do is give them the basics.

Questioninggeller · 15th September 2009, 01:35 PM

If anyone cares, here's her listing from her sponsorship of "Petapalooza":

Quote:

Adrienne DeSalvo
Spiritual Counselor & Psychic Medium
The Human Experience
The Afterlife with Adrienne
19 Montrose Avenue
Babylon, NY 11702

There are two mentions of a Adrienne DeSalvo in the Amityville Record and Beacon Journal (both in 2002), which don't mention anything about psychics or predictions. Seems like she is fairly unknown.

George152 · 15th September 2009, 02:20 PM

I'd suggest you run an evening at the same Library using the resources of the Library showing how cold reading works.

grunion · 15th September 2009, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by George152

I'd suggest you run an evening at the same Library using the resources of the Library showing how cold reading works.

Yes, as others suggested, if I felt I had the skills and knowledge for this it would certainly be worthwhile. I think developing a convincing cold reading act would take a few years of dedication and practice however.

vIQleS · 15th September 2009, 09:47 PM

Another idea is to make contact with the library - make friends with someone that is also skeptic (or a potential skeptic), and get them to organise a display for the night - skeptical books and maybe some posters with websites (and quotes) on them...

Do this right and the dislpay may even be up for a few days or even a week...

stijndeloose · 15th September 2009, 10:01 PM

I'd just go there... and ask critical questions...

grunion · 7th October 2009, 09:47 AM

Wow, this turned interesting. I didn't get a response from the library director for weeks. Then today I got an email:

Quote:

Thank you for your email regarding the program “Afterlife with Adrienne.” The library prides itself on serving the community. Our programming department strives to offer a broad array of programs to foster learning, culture, education and to provide entertainment. We encourage our patrons to suggest programs of interest. We’ve had numerous requests for programs of this nature. Please give me a call at XXX-XXXX. I would like to discuss this further.

Expecting failure and anticipating an argument, I called the library director and we had a very genial conversation. She said she herself was reluctant to offer a program of this nature because it was "controversial," but that she has had an overwhelming request for a program like this from library patrons, and that the response to it was so popular that within a couple of hours of registration it was full. Also, she said that a number of other libraries in the area have offered similar programs, and they proved very popular.

I told her that I didn't think the library should avoid "controversy" for its own sake. I thought a political debate, for example, if it were presented responsibly, to be entirely appropriate for library programming. But I compared this to a religious program. Just because a lot of people might ask for Christian-oriented programming does that mean the library should provide it to them? Or Muslim proselytizing? Should the library sponsor programs like this?

We discussed the psychic and I told what I knew about her. She hosts a number of "An Evening With" dinners in local restaurants and gives the restaurant a kickback. She attends psychic fairs and similar venues trying to round up business. We talked about how this compares to some of the other programs at the library - where an entertainer might sell CDs or distribute business cards, but that that is in keeping with the mission of the library to offer programs for culture and education. The issue for her came down to, was this an entertainment program or an educational one? It was advertised as the latter.

After some discussion she agreed with me. "Based on this discussion," she said, "I'm going to cancel this program today." Victory!

We then discussed how we might meet the community desire for paranormal programs but in a more educational setting. I suggested that we might find a presenter to discuss "Secrets Of The Psychics - How Do They Do It?" but she wasn't crazy about that idea. She said she'd think about trying to put a panel together to discuss "both sides of the issue," which gave me a little twinge, especially when she said that "a lot of scientists recognize that our atoms are composed of energy fields, maybe we could find one to represent that." I didn't want to press her on it but volunteered to help put the panel discussion together. I think she will take me up on that offer.

It was quite the educational discussion for me. I learned how much librarians really care about what concerned people think, how important these programs are for community involvement, and the challenge for them to continue to offer popular programs with their tiny budgets.

Madalch · 7th October 2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by grunion

She said she'd think about trying to put a panel together to discuss "both sides of the issue," which gave me a little twinge, especially when she said that "a lot of scientists recognize that our atoms are composed of energy fields, maybe we could find one to represent that." I didn't want to press her on it but volunteered to help put the panel discussion together.

Good luck finding a scientist who will agree of her misunderstanding of physics.

But good news about the cancellation of the program.

Baby Nemesis · 7th October 2009, 10:53 AM

Cool!

Olowkow · 7th October 2009, 10:55 AM

Congratulations grunion. Ya did good.
If you don't think it would be overkill, you might want to send her a link to StopSylvia. Many people just have not thought this stuff through, and RSL's excellent site brings it all into focus.
http://stopsylvia.com/home/

Pure Argent · 7th October 2009, 12:39 PM

Congrats grunion! I wasn't expecting to see any headway made. Then you had to go and prove me wrong. Curse you and your diplomatic skills, and that librarian and hers.

But if she actually finds a scientist who believes that our atoms are "made up of energy fields", make sure you know EXACTLY what he's claiming and that you tell the other panel members. That is, if this planned event ever gets off the ground.

shandyjan · 7th October 2009, 03:09 PM

I'm impressed. I dont have the guts to follow anything through..though I don tmind emailing my protests here and there!

Kariboo · 7th October 2009, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by grunion

That's a really good idea but I don't think I could do it justice. Are there any Long Island area skeptics interested in assisting with this? I could try to get us equal time on the bill. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't turn the audience's sympathies against us.

Hi, am late to this party but I am local. I read you wrote that they are canceling the 'show', but PM me if you need help or need another skeptic to be mobbed by the locals at a meeting.

grunion · 8th October 2009, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Congratulations grunion. Ya did good.
If you don't think it would be overkill, you might want to send her a link to StopSylvia. Many people just have not thought this stuff through, and RSL's excellent site brings it all into focus.
http://stopsylvia.com/home/

A great site indeed, which is why I have linked to it in my sig file for the past few years.

Originally Posted by Kariboo

Hi, am late to this party but I am local. I read you wrote that they are canceling the 'show', but PM me if you need help or need another skeptic to be mobbed by the locals at a meeting.

Thanks Kariboo. I think we'll need to find a local skeptic with experience in panel discussions of this nature - is it something you have done, or do you know of any? I am generally not crazy about engaging in debates with the credophiles - I think Brian Dunning laid out some good reasons why in a recent episode of the Skepoid podcast.

Olowkow · 8th October 2009, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by grunion

A great site indeed, which is why I have linked to it in my sig file for the past few years.

OOPS!

That'll teach me to read sigs!

dlorde · 8th October 2009, 11:29 AM

I wonder if the library would allow a magician to do a cold-reading act and explain it afterwards (or even as it is done), as an educational presentation?

Of course, you'd have to find a willing magician...

Audible Click · 8th October 2009, 11:30 AM

Good work grunion!

Alice Shortcake · 10th October 2009, 05:09 AM

Slightly OT, but one of my local libraries - which recently reopened after undergoing a very expensive refurbishment - is offering "Alternative Therapy Lessons", presumably paid for by the taxpayer. I paid a visit yesterday for the first time in a couple of years, and was intrigued to discover that although there is now a little coffee bar, more computers and more places to sit down, all this seems to have been accomplished by reducing the number of books!

Kariboo · 10th October 2009, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by grunion

Thanks Kariboo. I think we'll need to find a local skeptic with experience in panel discussions of this nature - is it something you have done, or do you know of any? I am generally not crazy about engaging in debates with the credophiles - I think Brian Dunning laid out some good reasons why in a recent episode of the Skepoid podcast.

No, I don't think I'll be good at that, short fuse and all. I think if you have a panel discussion the most important part is to have a very clear subject. It's very difficult to talk about paranormal stuff in general and assume anyone can address all the issues intelligently. I don't know what the library envisions a panel to discuss 'both sides' would look like. I think that unless you set something up and structure it is can easily lead to a 'no you're a poopiehead' discussion.

thrombus29 · 10th October 2009, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by grunion

A great site indeed, which is why I have linked to it in my sig file for the past few years.

Thanks Kariboo. I think we'll need to find a local skeptic with experience in panel discussions of this nature - is it something you have done, or do you know of any? I am generally not crazy about engaging in debates with the credophiles - I think Brian Dunning laid out some good reasons why in a recent episode of the Skepoid podcast.

I am a local too, I work in Babylon. Drop me a line if you need logistics help or support.

I have no panel discussion experience, but If you find you need someone who will go straight to the Ad-Hom's and mother insults, I am your guy.

On a related note, Even the mall I spent my childhood in isn't safe from the psychics anymore.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/l...NRkuYHzJh4ZbKM

Questioninggeller · 10th October 2009, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by grunion

After some discussion she agreed with me. "Based on this discussion," she said, "I'm going to cancel this program today." Victory!

You may have saved the library from particpating in a crime. As this article notes, it is illegal to fortune tell.

Ignatowski · 10th October 2009, 06:44 PM

I live in Suffolk County....I'd be glad to help.

Ignatowski · 10th October 2009, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by thrombus29

I am a local too, I work in Babylon. Drop me a line if you need logistics help or support.

I have no panel discussion experience, but If you find you need someone who will go straight to the Ad-Hom's and mother insults, I am your guy.

On a related note, Even the mall I spent my childhood in isn't safe from the psychics anymore.

I just read that the event was cancelled , but I'll still help out if needed.

I grew up in Smithtown and spent a lot of time ar Smith Haven Mall while growing up as well.....it sucks someone got duped but I'm not surprised.

grunion · 22nd October 2009, 07:41 AM

Just a brief update on this. I saw the Library Director staffing a table at the Safety Day exhibit at the local fire station (had to go, daughter won the poster contest

) and introduced myself to her. I asked her if she got any reaction when she called the psychic to cancel. She said "she hadn't got around to it yet." Also it's still up on the calendar on the Library's website. Hmmm, concerned.

I may need you local folks to help out on this.

Kuko 4000 · 22nd October 2009, 08:00 AM

Interesting stuff grunion, keep us posted

15th September 2009, 12:19 PM	#1
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Psychic Evening At Library My local public library generally hosts a pretty good roster of local musicians, finance lectures, the occassional magic show for the kiddies, knitting classes, and bingo night once in awhile. But they just announced "Afterlife With Adrienne" in which Adrienne "attempts to reconnect you with loved ones who have passed." They pay a small stipend to the performers, who are generally permitted to sell their CDs and advertise their services in exchange for the program. I dashed off this email to the library director: Quote: Dear Library Director, I've been an ardent supporter of the [local] Library for many years. I've come out to support the budget votes, attend meetings, and of course bring my family to support many of the rich and fun programs that the library offers. I was quite dismayed and disgusted to stop by the library this afternoon to find that among the mix of music programs and educational lectures you are planning for the fall, the library now supports scam artists that profess psychic abilities, and are giving them a venue (and presumably payment from our tax monies). "Afterlife With Adrienne," scheduled for October 27th, invites library patrons to a session with some woman at the library who claims to "reconnect you with loved ones who have passed" to "resolve questions one may have about the afterlife." This is a crock and a scam. There has never been any evidence that anyone has the powers that she professes in this flier. One expects she will use the same tired cold reading techniques used by so many "psychic" scam artists for hundreds of years, in an attempt to drum up business for herself. The library's mission is a noble one. You have the public's trust to foster culture and learning in our community. Instead you are furthering stupidity and pseudoscience with this program. I urge you to cancel this program and let "Adrienne" figure out some other way to convince the gullible among us of her magic super powers, without the support of our tax dollars and our library's hard won reputation. Truly yours, I don't expect that I will be successful in this effort but at least I feel better making my feelings known. I may even show up that night desperately looking for a connection with my dear departed great aunt Doris. Has anyone had any success trying to embarrass these small-time hucksters? I'd love to hear of any ideas.
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

15th September 2009, 12:31 PM	#2
LibraryLady ...but not JUST a LibraryLady Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Building a house in the common ground Posts: 13,075	I will be very curious to see the reply. I'm sure you'll get one. May I ask where your library is located?
	__________________ What would Hüsker Dü? I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about. Mildred Loving

15th September 2009, 12:31 PM	#3
Baby Nemesis Sunshine addict Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: My favourite place Posts: 2,391	You should have given him a couple of links to articles on cold reading techniques. He might not know what you're talking about otherwise and might think you haven't given any proof that this person is a scam artist.
	__________________ Self-help articles, from depression and phobias to marriage problems to childcare to dementia care to debating skills to bullying to addiction Some Ways War Can Be More Catastrophic Than Need Be or be Started Unnecessarily and Some Solutions Avoiding Falling for False Claims of the Supernatural

15th September 2009, 12:35 PM	#5
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Originally Posted by LibraryLady I will be very curious to see the reply. I'm sure you'll get one. May I ask where your library is located? I hope I do, and I will post it here. The library is in Suffolk County, NY (in Long Island.)
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

15th September 2009, 12:39 PM	#6
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Originally Posted by bookitty This would be a lovely opportunity to set up a counterpoint scenario. Have a skeptic there, recording the whole thing who could do a Q & A afterwords. Ask people how many names they thought were called out, explain cold reading, that sort of thing. That's a really good idea but I don't think I could do it justice. Are there any Long Island area skeptics interested in assisting with this? I could try to get us equal time on the bill. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't turn the audience's sympathies against us.
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

15th September 2009, 12:34 PM	#4
bookitty Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,532	Originally Posted by grunion My local public library generally hosts a pretty good roster of local musicians, finance lectures, the occassional magic show for the kiddies, knitting classes, and bingo night once in awhile. But they just announced "Afterlife With Adrienne" in which Adrienne "attempts to reconnect you with loved ones who have passed." They pay a small stipend to the performers, who are generally permitted to sell their CDs and advertise their services in exchange for the program. I dashed off this email to the library director: I don't expect that I will be successful in this effort but at least I feel better making my feelings known. I may even show up that night desperately looking for a connection with my dear departed great aunt Doris. Has anyone had any success trying to embarrass these small-time hucksters? I'd love to hear of any ideas. Usually extra curricular activities are paid for by the Friends of the Library group and their private fund raising. So there's a good chance that no tax dollars were used here. Doesn't matter though, the funds are raised from donations. How would those who donated feel if they knew their money was being used for a scam? This would be a lovely opportunity to set up a counterpoint scenario. Have a skeptic there, recording the whole thing who could do a Q & A afterwords. Ask people how many names they thought were called out, explain cold reading, that sort of thing. Unfortunately, that sort of thing takes time to set up and is confrontational. Perhaps you can check the libraries resources and see what books they have to address this sort of thing. Make up a small list of recommendations.

15th September 2009, 12:52 PM	#7
bookitty Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,532	Originally Posted by grunion That's a really good idea but I don't think I could do it justice. Are there any Long Island area skeptics interested in assisting with this? I could try to get us equal time on the bill. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't turn the audience's sympathies against us. It's not that difficult. Outside of those who are vehemently against or rabidly for, people haven't really thought about it. Maybe they think it's amazing but they wouldn't call a psychic on their own. If it's presented well, most people who will find the explanation as intriguing as the trick. All you need to do is give them the basics.

15th September 2009, 01:35 PM	#8
Questioninggeller Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,030	If anyone cares, here's her listing from her sponsorship of "Petapalooza": Quote: Adrienne DeSalvo Spiritual Counselor & Psychic Medium The Human Experience The Afterlife with Adrienne 19 Montrose Avenue Babylon, NY 11702 There are two mentions of a Adrienne DeSalvo in the Amityville Record and Beacon Journal (both in 2002), which don't mention anything about psychics or predictions. Seems like she is fairly unknown.

15th September 2009, 02:20 PM	#9
George152 Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 2,042	I'd suggest you run an evening at the same Library using the resources of the Library showing how cold reading works.
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

15th September 2009, 08:55 PM	#10
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Originally Posted by George152 I'd suggest you run an evening at the same Library using the resources of the Library showing how cold reading works. Yes, as others suggested, if I felt I had the skills and knowledge for this it would certainly be worthwhile. I think developing a convincing cold reading act would take a few years of dedication and practice however.
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

15th September 2009, 09:47 PM	#11
vIQleS Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Auckland NZ Posts: 861	Another idea is to make contact with the library - make friends with someone that is also skeptic (or a potential skeptic), and get them to organise a display for the night - skeptical books and maybe some posters with websites (and quotes) on them... Do this right and the dislpay may even be up for a few days or even a week...
	__________________ ==--New NZ Skeptical Podcast--== http://thecusp.org.nz "vIQleS, Slap me. Slap me twice." - Foolmewunz

15th September 2009, 10:01 PM	#12
stijndeloose Thinker Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 145	I'd just go there... and ask critical questions...

7th October 2009, 09:47 AM	#13
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Wow, this turned interesting. I didn't get a response from the library director for weeks. Then today I got an email: Quote: Thank you for your email regarding the program “Afterlife with Adrienne.” The library prides itself on serving the community. Our programming department strives to offer a broad array of programs to foster learning, culture, education and to provide entertainment. We encourage our patrons to suggest programs of interest. We’ve had numerous requests for programs of this nature. Please give me a call at XXX-XXXX. I would like to discuss this further. Expecting failure and anticipating an argument, I called the library director and we had a very genial conversation. She said she herself was reluctant to offer a program of this nature because it was "controversial," but that she has had an overwhelming request for a program like this from library patrons, and that the response to it was so popular that within a couple of hours of registration it was full. Also, she said that a number of other libraries in the area have offered similar programs, and they proved very popular. I told her that I didn't think the library should avoid "controversy" for its own sake. I thought a political debate, for example, if it were presented responsibly, to be entirely appropriate for library programming. But I compared this to a religious program. Just because a lot of people might ask for Christian-oriented programming does that mean the library should provide it to them? Or Muslim proselytizing? Should the library sponsor programs like this? We discussed the psychic and I told what I knew about her. She hosts a number of "An Evening With" dinners in local restaurants and gives the restaurant a kickback. She attends psychic fairs and similar venues trying to round up business. We talked about how this compares to some of the other programs at the library - where an entertainer might sell CDs or distribute business cards, but that that is in keeping with the mission of the library to offer programs for culture and education. The issue for her came down to, was this an entertainment program or an educational one? It was advertised as the latter. After some discussion she agreed with me. "Based on this discussion," she said, "I'm going to cancel this program today." Victory! We then discussed how we might meet the community desire for paranormal programs but in a more educational setting. I suggested that we might find a presenter to discuss "Secrets Of The Psychics - How Do They Do It?" but she wasn't crazy about that idea. She said she'd think about trying to put a panel together to discuss "both sides of the issue," which gave me a little twinge, especially when she said that "a lot of scientists recognize that our atoms are composed of energy fields, maybe we could find one to represent that." I didn't want to press her on it but volunteered to help put the panel discussion together. I think she will take me up on that offer. It was quite the educational discussion for me. I learned how much librarians really care about what concerned people think, how important these programs are for community involvement, and the challenge for them to continue to offer popular programs with their tiny budgets.
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

7th October 2009, 10:36 AM	#14
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by grunion She said she'd think about trying to put a panel together to discuss "both sides of the issue," which gave me a little twinge, especially when she said that "a lot of scientists recognize that our atoms are composed of energy fields, maybe we could find one to represent that." I didn't want to press her on it but volunteered to help put the panel discussion together. Good luck finding a scientist who will agree of her misunderstanding of physics. But good news about the cancellation of the program.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

7th October 2009, 10:53 AM	#15
Baby Nemesis Sunshine addict Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: My favourite place Posts: 2,391	Cool!
	__________________ Self-help articles, from depression and phobias to marriage problems to childcare to dementia care to debating skills to bullying to addiction Some Ways War Can Be More Catastrophic Than Need Be or be Started Unnecessarily and Some Solutions Avoiding Falling for False Claims of the Supernatural

7th October 2009, 10:55 AM	#16
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,807	Congratulations grunion. Ya did good. If you don't think it would be overkill, you might want to send her a link to StopSylvia. Many people just have not thought this stuff through, and RSL's excellent site brings it all into focus. http://stopsylvia.com/home/
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,807	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

7th October 2009, 12:39 PM	#17
Pure Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 6,259	Congrats grunion! I wasn't expecting to see any headway made. Then you had to go and prove me wrong. Curse you and your diplomatic skills, and that librarian and hers. But if she actually finds a scientist who believes that our atoms are "made up of energy fields", make sure you know EXACTLY what he's claiming and that you tell the other panel members. That is, if this planned event ever gets off the ground.
	__________________ "Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

7th October 2009, 03:09 PM	#18
shandyjan Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 2,111	I'm impressed. I dont have the guts to follow anything through..though I don tmind emailing my protests here and there!
	__________________ Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's A dog is for life, not just for xmas!

7th October 2009, 03:26 PM	#19
Kariboo Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 502	Originally Posted by grunion That's a really good idea but I don't think I could do it justice. Are there any Long Island area skeptics interested in assisting with this? I could try to get us equal time on the bill. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't turn the audience's sympathies against us. Hi, am late to this party but I am local. I read you wrote that they are canceling the 'show', but PM me if you need help or need another skeptic to be mobbed by the locals at a meeting.
Kariboo Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 502	__________________ KAREN: Honey, you know I'm a little psychic. Remember when I predicted that Driver was gonna lose his job, and then two days later I fired him? JACK: My God, you're right. And that time you predicted that Rosario was gonna fall, and then you pushed her down the stairs.

8th October 2009, 06:03 AM	#20
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Originally Posted by Olowkow Congratulations grunion. Ya did good. If you don't think it would be overkill, you might want to send her a link to StopSylvia. Many people just have not thought this stuff through, and RSL's excellent site brings it all into focus. http://stopsylvia.com/home/ A great site indeed, which is why I have linked to it in my sig file for the past few years. Originally Posted by Kariboo Hi, am late to this party but I am local. I read you wrote that they are canceling the 'show', but PM me if you need help or need another skeptic to be mobbed by the locals at a meeting. Thanks Kariboo. I think we'll need to find a local skeptic with experience in panel discussions of this nature - is it something you have done, or do you know of any? I am generally not crazy about engaging in debates with the credophiles - I think Brian Dunning laid out some good reasons why in a recent episode of the Skepoid podcast.
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

8th October 2009, 07:34 AM	#21
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,807	Originally Posted by grunion A great site indeed, which is why I have linked to it in my sig file for the past few years. OOPS! That'll teach me to read sigs!
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,807	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

8th October 2009, 11:29 AM	#22
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	I wonder if the library would allow a magician to do a cold-reading act and explain it afterwards (or even as it is done), as an educational presentation? Of course, you'd have to find a willing magician...
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646

8th October 2009, 11:30 AM	#23
Audible Click The gap in the plot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: BFE Posts: 3,546	Good work grunion!
	__________________ "Thank you, darling heart. Love you." Baba Australasian Skeptics Forum

10th October 2009, 05:09 AM	#24
Alice Shortcake Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: York, England Posts: 750	Slightly OT, but one of my local libraries - which recently reopened after undergoing a very expensive refurbishment - is offering "Alternative Therapy Lessons", presumably paid for by the taxpayer. I paid a visit yesterday for the first time in a couple of years, and was intrigued to discover that although there is now a little coffee bar, more computers and more places to sit down, all this seems to have been accomplished by reducing the number of books!
	__________________ Proud member of the Debunkly Skerricks Pack

10th October 2009, 08:19 AM	#25
Kariboo Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 502	Originally Posted by grunion Thanks Kariboo. I think we'll need to find a local skeptic with experience in panel discussions of this nature - is it something you have done, or do you know of any? I am generally not crazy about engaging in debates with the credophiles - I think Brian Dunning laid out some good reasons why in a recent episode of the Skepoid podcast. No, I don't think I'll be good at that, short fuse and all. I think if you have a panel discussion the most important part is to have a very clear subject. It's very difficult to talk about paranormal stuff in general and assume anyone can address all the issues intelligently. I don't know what the library envisions a panel to discuss 'both sides' would look like. I think that unless you set something up and structure it is can easily lead to a 'no you're a poopiehead' discussion.
Kariboo Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 502	__________________ KAREN: Honey, you know I'm a little psychic. Remember when I predicted that Driver was gonna lose his job, and then two days later I fired him? JACK: My God, you're right. And that time you predicted that Rosario was gonna fall, and then you pushed her down the stairs.

10th October 2009, 10:16 AM	#26
thrombus29 Flame War Master and JREF kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,924	Originally Posted by grunion A great site indeed, which is why I have linked to it in my sig file for the past few years. Thanks Kariboo. I think we'll need to find a local skeptic with experience in panel discussions of this nature - is it something you have done, or do you know of any? I am generally not crazy about engaging in debates with the credophiles - I think Brian Dunning laid out some good reasons why in a recent episode of the Skepoid podcast. I am a local too, I work in Babylon. Drop me a line if you need logistics help or support. I have no panel discussion experience, but If you find you need someone who will go straight to the Ad-Hom's and mother insults, I am your guy. On a related note, Even the mall I spent my childhood in isn't safe from the psychics anymore. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/l...NRkuYHzJh4ZbKM
	__________________ Now I am not going to justify what may appear to be a failure in carrying out this prediction but rest in the fact that there will be success. -St. Paul Bethke Targzissians are obviously reptilian

10th October 2009, 01:52 PM	#27
Questioninggeller Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,030	Originally Posted by grunion After some discussion she agreed with me. "Based on this discussion," she said, "I'm going to cancel this program today." Victory! You may have saved the library from particpating in a crime. As this article notes, it is illegal to fortune tell.

10th October 2009, 06:44 PM	#28
Ignatowski Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 200	I live in Suffolk County....I'd be glad to help.
Ignatowski Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 200

10th October 2009, 06:53 PM	#29
Ignatowski Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 200	Originally Posted by thrombus29 I am a local too, I work in Babylon. Drop me a line if you need logistics help or support. I have no panel discussion experience, but If you find you need someone who will go straight to the Ad-Hom's and mother insults, I am your guy. On a related note, Even the mall I spent my childhood in isn't safe from the psychics anymore. I just read that the event was cancelled , but I'll still help out if needed. I grew up in Smithtown and spent a lot of time ar Smith Haven Mall while growing up as well.....it sucks someone got duped but I'm not surprised.
Ignatowski Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 200

22nd October 2009, 07:41 AM	#30
grunion Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The ice planet Posts: 6,373	Just a brief update on this. I saw the Library Director staffing a table at the Safety Day exhibit at the local fire station (had to go, daughter won the poster contest ) and introduced myself to her. I asked her if she got any reaction when she called the psychic to cancel. She said "she hadn't got around to it yet." Also it's still up on the calendar on the Library's website. Hmmm, concerned. I may need you local folks to help out on this.
	__________________ “Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome.” ― Charles Mackay, 1841 - Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds

22nd October 2009, 08:00 AM	#31
Kuko 4000 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 1,551	Interesting stuff grunion, keep us posted
	__________________ Richard Dawkins: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Pixie of key: "HOW IS YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM GIVING LECTURES ON A PROBLEM."