Israel and Hamas guilty of crimes against humanity?

andyandy · 16th September 2009, 10:23 AM

I'm surprised it hasn't made a thread already,

Quote:

The 575-page UN report said that Israeli military personnel should face "individual criminal responsibility" for grave breaches of the laws of war. Although critical of both sides, it singled out Israel and its policy towards the Palestinians of Gaza for the most serious condemnation. It accused Israeli troops of using Palestinians as human shields, a war crime, and said the long Israeli economic blockade of Gaza amounted to "collective punishment intentionally inflicted by the government of Israel on the people of the Gaza Strip".

It recommended that the UN security council should require Israel to investigate the allegations raised, and if it failed to do so within six months the case should be passed to the prosecutor of the international criminal court. Each country that is a high contracting party to the Geneva conventions had a duty to search for and prosecute those responsible, it said.

The inquiry rejected Israel's argument that the war was a response to Palestinian rocket fire and therefore an act of self-defence. Instead, it found the war was "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population". Israeli actions depriving Gazans of means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, and denying their freedom of movement "could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, had been committed", it said.

But the inquiry also condemned Hamas. It said Palestinian rocket attacks did not distinguish between civilian and military targets, caused terror among Israeli civilians and "would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity". Gazan security forces – controlled by Hamas – carried out extrajudicial executions and the arbitrary arrest, detention and ill-treatment of people, especially political opponents. It also called for the release of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held captive in Gaza for more than three years.

needless to say Israel has rejected the findings, claiming that the report is biased. So, can we expect any summons to the ICC any time soon?

Praktik · 16th September 2009, 10:30 AM

...it did also note that there has been at least some investigation into things from Israeli authorities, but that Hamas has conducted no such investigations into the launching of rockets.

Which I thought was an important thing to note.

I don't disagree with the other findings either and I think it will be a cold day in hell before there's an Israeli before the ICC - but I do think that we may end up seeing some Hamas and Israeli individuals tried in absentia.

Eyeron · 16th September 2009, 01:54 PM

It doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel is the crimional here.

/sarcasm

Praktik · 16th September 2009, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

It doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel is the crimional here.

/sarcasm

Completely appropriate use of sarcasm, since the report doesn't mention Hamas at all.

/sarcasm

Eyeron · 16th September 2009, 02:15 PM

Ahem:

Quote:

But the inquiry also condemned Hamas. It said Palestinian rocket attacks did not distinguish between civilian and military targets, caused terror among Israeli civilians and "would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity". Gazan security forces – controlled by Hamas – carried out extrajudicial executions and the arbitrary arrest, detention and ill-treatment of people, especially political opponents. It also called for the release of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held captive in Gaza for more than three years.

Thunder · 16th September 2009, 03:26 PM

Hamas also used human shields. And they fired at Israelis from civilian homes, hospitals, even mosques. Using religious institution as a shield against rocket attacks is a war crime.

Both Israel and Hamas did bad things in this war and need to face justice.

Israel had the right to respond to rocket attacks upon Israeli civilians, BUT Hamas had the right to resist Israel's illegal and immoral embargo upon the civilian population of Gaza.

There were no good guys in this conflict.

Thunder · 16th September 2009, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

It doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel is the crimional here.

this is the infrequently used logic that Israelis love to wave around, as if all critics of Israel are utterly blind to ALL Palestinian and Hamas war crimes and injustice..and can ONLY see Israeli crimes and injustice.

but those of us in the thinking world, know this is not the truth.

the truth is, most legitimate critics of Israel (the UN, HRW, AI) condemn Israeli bad behavior AND Palestinian bad behavior.

nevertheless, many Israelis still love to ignore that clear fact, and make believe that are the sole target of criticism.

I expect, soon, someone will accuse these new war crimes accusations against Israel as a "blood libel". Some Jews will never cease to play the anti-Semitism card.

Cleon · 16th September 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

Ahem:

I think Praktik was using meta-sarcasm.

(And if "meta-sarcasm" isn't a word, it damn well oughta be.)

Praktik · 16th September 2009, 03:34 PM

ya I blame the internets

I guess eyeron was anticipating what Parky was alluding to. And I misinterpreted.

The Fool · 16th September 2009, 04:51 PM

I certainly doubt if Hamas will be interested in anyone being tried, I doubt if Israel would co-operate either.

Praktik · 16th September 2009, 05:00 PM

Ya thats a pretty safe bet sadly. In a made-up fantasy world it would be great to see a bunch of people on trial from both countries.

I think they both perpetuate perhaps the single most damaging thing for human rights: that "necessity" can justify violating them.

In Hamas' case they claim the occupation justifies their violations.

Israel justifies their violations by raising the spectre of terrorism.

In a dreamworld, there'd be an inviolable principle of human rights - where no "necessity" could justify violations of human rights, and where violators would recieve certain punishment.

Fishstick · 17th September 2009, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

I certainly doubt if Hamas will be interested in anyone being tried, I doubt if Israel would co-operate either.

As far as I know Israel hasn't ratified the ICC, so the UN would be the highest power this goes to. And of course, the US has veto which it isn't afraid to use against anything that might endanger israel's image.

I'm glad the Hamas attacks were mentioned too in the doc, but I doubt there will be any impact at all from this other than Israel increasing its spinning.

bigjelmapro · 17th September 2009, 09:40 AM

Some interesting links regarding this UN report and its blatant inaccuracies and rehashing of the same misguided allegations by so-called 'experts':

The Goldstone Report: Rewarding Palestinian Terror

Goldstone Report: 575 pages of NGO “cut and paste”

Don't really see a reason to start yet another thread at an attempt to justify Hamas's (or Fatah's, etc.) terrorist tactics against Israel and that of Israel's actions to protect its citizens. Or misplacing allegations of 'war crimes', 'crimes against humanity', 'disproportionate', 'violation of international law', etc. against Israel by these UN 'experts' is utterly irresponsible and wrong. There's plenty to choose from. Perhaps this is another attempt to bump the same drivel over and over again by starting another thread with the same drivel.

No need for spin either....

portlandatheist · 17th September 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

It accused Israeli troops of using Palestinians as human shields

WTF? Does anybody know the specifics of this?

The Fool · 17th September 2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Some interesting links regarding this UN report and its blatant inaccuracies and rehashing of the same misguided allegations by so-called 'experts':

The Goldstone Report: Rewarding Palestinian Terror

Goldstone Report: 575 pages of NGO “cut and paste”

Don't really see a reason to start yet another thread at an attempt to justify Hamas's (or Fatah's, etc.) terrorist tactics against Israel and that of Israel's actions to protect its citizens. Or misplacing allegations of 'war crimes', 'crimes against humanity', 'disproportionate', 'violation of international law', etc. against Israel by these UN 'experts' is utterly irresponsible and wrong. There's plenty to choose from. Perhaps this is another attempt to bump the same drivel over and over again by starting another thread with the same drivel.

No need for spin either....

we did nothing, its all made up....is that your answer? Dude...that answers getting a bit tired and to be honest is not taken very seriously anymore. It looks like its going to be investigated so there is a fair chance there is going to be a lot more you are going to have to deny. May as well start practicing denying stuff now..

Thunder · 17th September 2009, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

we did nothing, its all made up....is that your answer?

you forgot:

"it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of war crimes"

"Israel can't commit war crimes..for it is a democracy"

"Jews don't commit war crimes. Only Muslims and Christians do"

"accusing Israel of war crimes is like saying the Holocaust never happened"

"first they accuse us of war crimes. the gas chambers won't be far behind"

INRM · 17th September 2009, 06:50 PM

Of course they both are...

bigjelmapro · 18th September 2009, 05:53 AM

Lol. Same drivel, different thread. Read the links or just fold....

mortimer · 18th September 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

you forgot:

"it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of war crimes"

"Israel can't commit war crimes..for it is a democracy"

"Jews don't commit war crimes. Only Muslims and Christians do"

"accusing Israel of war crimes is like saying the Holocaust never happened"

"first they accuse us of war crimes. the gas chambers won't be far behind"

Did someone actually say these things, or did you just make them up?

The Fool · 18th September 2009, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Lol. Same drivel, different thread. Read the links or just fold....

reduced to denial sound bites....

Thunder · 18th September 2009, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by mortimer

Did someone actually say these things, or did you just make them up?

Marc39 has stated that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid. I have read other Israeli and Jewish folks utter similar crap.

mortimer · 19th September 2009, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Marc39 has stated that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid. I have read other Israeli and Jewish folks utter similar crap.

So, you made them up.

Marc39 · 20th September 2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parky76
Marc39 has stated that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid. I have read other Israeli and Jewish folks utter similar crap.

So, you made them up.

Marc39 doesn't appreciate being misrepresented. What Marc39 has stated is that accusing Israel of apartheid is fallacious since it doesn't exist in Israel, though, apartheid is the status quo in Arab and Muslim countries in the region, and that doing so is part of a concerted effort to demonize, delegitimize and marginalize Israel. It would be naive to deny that anti-Semitism is a driving force.

The Fool · 20th September 2009, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Marc39

Marc39 doesn't appreciate being misrepresented. What Marc39 has stated is that accusing Israel of apartheid is fallacious since it doesn't exist in Israel, though, apartheid is the status quo in Arab and Muslim countries in the region, and that doing so is part of a concerted effort to demonize, delegitimize and marginalize Israel. It would be naive to deny that anti-Semitism is a driving force.

so you are not saying its anti semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid policies, its just naive to deny that anti-semitism is a driving force?

whats the difference?

Darth Rotor · 21st September 2009, 07:50 AM

Crimes against humanity: a conceptual desert, and a term devoid of an utility or coherent meaning. It is by nature rhetorical and nebulous, not to mention being rooted in an appeal to emotion.

A billion Chinese were completely unphased by the local scrap between those two parties. I doubt there were even offended.

16th September 2009, 10:23 AM	#1
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	Israel and Hamas guilty of crimes against humanity? I'm surprised it hasn't made a thread already, Quote: The 575-page UN report said that Israeli military personnel should face "individual criminal responsibility" for grave breaches of the laws of war. Although critical of both sides, it singled out Israel and its policy towards the Palestinians of Gaza for the most serious condemnation. It accused Israeli troops of using Palestinians as human shields, a war crime, and said the long Israeli economic blockade of Gaza amounted to "collective punishment intentionally inflicted by the government of Israel on the people of the Gaza Strip". It recommended that the UN security council should require Israel to investigate the allegations raised, and if it failed to do so within six months the case should be passed to the prosecutor of the international criminal court. Each country that is a high contracting party to the Geneva conventions had a duty to search for and prosecute those responsible, it said. The inquiry rejected Israel's argument that the war was a response to Palestinian rocket fire and therefore an act of self-defence. Instead, it found the war was "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population". Israeli actions depriving Gazans of means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, and denying their freedom of movement "could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, had been committed", it said. But the inquiry also condemned Hamas. It said Palestinian rocket attacks did not distinguish between civilian and military targets, caused terror among Israeli civilians and "would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity". Gazan security forces – controlled by Hamas – carried out extrajudicial executions and the arbitrary arrest, detention and ill-treatment of people, especially political opponents. It also called for the release of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held captive in Gaza for more than three years. needless to say Israel has rejected the findings, claiming that the report is biased. So, can we expect any summons to the ICC any time soon?

16th September 2009, 10:30 AM	#2
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,249	...it did also note that there has been at least some investigation into things from Israeli authorities, but that Hamas has conducted no such investigations into the launching of rockets. Which I thought was an important thing to note. I don't disagree with the other findings either and I think it will be a cold day in hell before there's an Israeli before the ICC - but I do think that we may end up seeing some Hamas and Israeli individuals tried in absentia.
	__________________ “ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief" -Iain Banks

16th September 2009, 01:54 PM	#3
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	It doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel is the crimional here. /sarcasm
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

16th September 2009, 02:06 PM	#4
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,249	Originally Posted by Eyeron It doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel is the crimional here. /sarcasm Completely appropriate use of sarcasm, since the report doesn't mention Hamas at all. /sarcasm
	__________________ “ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief" -Iain Banks

16th September 2009, 02:15 PM	#5
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	Ahem: Quote: But the inquiry also condemned Hamas. It said Palestinian rocket attacks did not distinguish between civilian and military targets, caused terror among Israeli civilians and "would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity". Gazan security forces – controlled by Hamas – carried out extrajudicial executions and the arbitrary arrest, detention and ill-treatment of people, especially political opponents. It also called for the release of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held captive in Gaza for more than three years.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

16th September 2009, 03:26 PM	#6
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Hamas also used human shields. And they fired at Israelis from civilian homes, hospitals, even mosques. Using religious institution as a shield against rocket attacks is a war crime. Both Israel and Hamas did bad things in this war and need to face justice. Israel had the right to respond to rocket attacks upon Israeli civilians, BUT Hamas had the right to resist Israel's illegal and immoral embargo upon the civilian population of Gaza. There were no good guys in this conflict.

16th September 2009, 03:29 PM	#7
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Eyeron It doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel is the crimional here. this is the infrequently used logic that Israelis love to wave around, as if all critics of Israel are utterly blind to ALL Palestinian and Hamas war crimes and injustice..and can ONLY see Israeli crimes and injustice. but those of us in the thinking world, know this is not the truth. the truth is, most legitimate critics of Israel (the UN, HRW, AI) condemn Israeli bad behavior AND Palestinian bad behavior. nevertheless, many Israelis still love to ignore that clear fact, and make believe that are the sole target of criticism. I expect, soon, someone will accuse these new war crimes accusations against Israel as a "blood libel". Some Jews will never cease to play the anti-Semitism card.
	Last edited by Thunder; 16th September 2009 at 03:31 PM.

16th September 2009, 03:33 PM	#8
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Originally Posted by Eyeron Ahem: I think Praktik was using meta-sarcasm. (And if "meta-sarcasm" isn't a word, it damn well oughta be.)
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

16th September 2009, 03:34 PM	#9
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,249	ya I blame the internets I guess eyeron was anticipating what Parky was alluding to. And I misinterpreted.
	__________________ “ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief" -Iain Banks

16th September 2009, 04:51 PM	#10
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	I certainly doubt if Hamas will be interested in anyone being tried, I doubt if Israel would co-operate either.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

16th September 2009, 05:00 PM	#11
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,249	Ya thats a pretty safe bet sadly. In a made-up fantasy world it would be great to see a bunch of people on trial from both countries. I think they both perpetuate perhaps the single most damaging thing for human rights: that "necessity" can justify violating them. In Hamas' case they claim the occupation justifies their violations. Israel justifies their violations by raising the spectre of terrorism. In a dreamworld, there'd be an inviolable principle of human rights - where no "necessity" could justify violations of human rights, and where violators would recieve certain punishment.
	__________________ “ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief" -Iain Banks

17th September 2009, 03:13 AM	#12
Fishstick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,303	Originally Posted by The Fool I certainly doubt if Hamas will be interested in anyone being tried, I doubt if Israel would co-operate either. As far as I know Israel hasn't ratified the ICC, so the UN would be the highest power this goes to. And of course, the US has veto which it isn't afraid to use against anything that might endanger israel's image. I'm glad the Hamas attacks were mentioned too in the doc, but I doubt there will be any impact at all from this other than Israel increasing its spinning.

17th September 2009, 09:40 AM	#13
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Some interesting links regarding this UN report and its blatant inaccuracies and rehashing of the same misguided allegations by so-called 'experts': The Goldstone Report: Rewarding Palestinian Terror Goldstone Report: 575 pages of NGO “cut and paste” Don't really see a reason to start yet another thread at an attempt to justify Hamas's (or Fatah's, etc.) terrorist tactics against Israel and that of Israel's actions to protect its citizens. Or misplacing allegations of 'war crimes', 'crimes against humanity', 'disproportionate', 'violation of international law', etc. against Israel by these UN 'experts' is utterly irresponsible and wrong. There's plenty to choose from. Perhaps this is another attempt to bump the same drivel over and over again by starting another thread with the same drivel. No need for spin either....
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Last edited by bigjelmapro; 17th September 2009 at 09:41 AM.

17th September 2009, 02:06 PM	#14
portlandatheist Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,111	Quote: It accused Israeli troops of using Palestinians as human shields WTF? Does anybody know the specifics of this?

17th September 2009, 04:37 PM	#15
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro Some interesting links regarding this UN report and its blatant inaccuracies and rehashing of the same misguided allegations by so-called 'experts': The Goldstone Report: Rewarding Palestinian Terror Goldstone Report: 575 pages of NGO “cut and paste” Don't really see a reason to start yet another thread at an attempt to justify Hamas's (or Fatah's, etc.) terrorist tactics against Israel and that of Israel's actions to protect its citizens. Or misplacing allegations of 'war crimes', 'crimes against humanity', 'disproportionate', 'violation of international law', etc. against Israel by these UN 'experts' is utterly irresponsible and wrong. There's plenty to choose from. Perhaps this is another attempt to bump the same drivel over and over again by starting another thread with the same drivel. No need for spin either.... we did nothing, its all made up....is that your answer? Dude...that answers getting a bit tired and to be honest is not taken very seriously anymore. It looks like its going to be investigated so there is a fair chance there is going to be a lot more you are going to have to deny. May as well start practicing denying stuff now..
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

17th September 2009, 05:02 PM	#16
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by The Fool we did nothing, its all made up....is that your answer? you forgot: "it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of war crimes" "Israel can't commit war crimes..for it is a democracy" "Jews don't commit war crimes. Only Muslims and Christians do" "accusing Israel of war crimes is like saying the Holocaust never happened" "first they accuse us of war crimes. the gas chambers won't be far behind"
	Last edited by Thunder; 17th September 2009 at 05:04 PM.

17th September 2009, 06:50 PM	#17
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Of course they both are...
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

18th September 2009, 05:53 AM	#18
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Lol. Same drivel, different thread. Read the links or just fold....
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

18th September 2009, 06:49 AM	#19
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 3,477	Originally Posted by parky76 you forgot: "it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of war crimes" "Israel can't commit war crimes..for it is a democracy" "Jews don't commit war crimes. Only Muslims and Christians do" "accusing Israel of war crimes is like saying the Holocaust never happened" "first they accuse us of war crimes. the gas chambers won't be far behind" Did someone actually say these things, or did you just make them up?
	__________________ "why would i bother?" - Bikerdruid, on providing evidence for his claims "I view hamas as an organization fighting for the freedom of its people." - Bikerdruid

18th September 2009, 04:59 PM	#20
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro Lol. Same drivel, different thread. Read the links or just fold.... reduced to denial sound bites....
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

18th September 2009, 05:18 PM	#21
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by mortimer Did someone actually say these things, or did you just make them up? Marc39 has stated that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid. I have read other Israeli and Jewish folks utter similar crap.

19th September 2009, 06:25 AM	#22
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 3,477	Originally Posted by parky76 Marc39 has stated that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid. I have read other Israeli and Jewish folks utter similar crap. So, you made them up.
	__________________ "why would i bother?" - Bikerdruid, on providing evidence for his claims "I view hamas as an organization fighting for the freedom of its people." - Bikerdruid

20th September 2009, 05:52 PM	#23
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720	Quote: Originally Posted by parky76 Marc39 has stated that it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid. I have read other Israeli and Jewish folks utter similar crap. So, you made them up. Marc39 doesn't appreciate being misrepresented. What Marc39 has stated is that accusing Israel of apartheid is fallacious since it doesn't exist in Israel, though, apartheid is the status quo in Arab and Muslim countries in the region, and that doing so is part of a concerted effort to demonize, delegitimize and marginalize Israel. It would be naive to deny that anti-Semitism is a driving force.
Marc39 Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,720

20th September 2009, 06:09 PM	#24
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Marc39 Marc39 doesn't appreciate being misrepresented. What Marc39 has stated is that accusing Israel of apartheid is fallacious since it doesn't exist in Israel, though, apartheid is the status quo in Arab and Muslim countries in the region, and that doing so is part of a concerted effort to demonize, delegitimize and marginalize Israel. It would be naive to deny that anti-Semitism is a driving force. so you are not saying its anti semitic to accuse Israel of Apartheid policies, its just naive to deny that anti-semitism is a driving force? whats the difference?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

21st September 2009, 07:50 AM	#25
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,264	Crimes against humanity: a conceptual desert, and a term devoid of an utility or coherent meaning. It is by nature rhetorical and nebulous, not to mention being rooted in an appeal to emotion. A billion Chinese were completely unphased by the local scrap between those two parties. I doubt there were even offended.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis