Another Christian nurse moved amid necklace ban

Rrose Selavy · 20th September 2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

A Christian nurse was taken off frontline duties after she refused to take off a necklace bearing a cross.

Shirley Chaplin said she believed The Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Trust Hospital was trying to prevent her from expressing religious beliefs.

But the trust said the policy had nothing to do with the crucifix specifically, and was motivated by health and safety concerns about patients grabbing necklaces.

Mrs Chaplin, 54, from Exeter, said: "For about 30 years I have worked in the NHS and nursed patients day and night and on no occasion has my cross caused me or anyone else any injury - and to my knowledge, no patient has ever complained about me wearing it.

"The Trust even refused to test the 'breaking strain' on the necklace."

Mrs Chaplin, who is due to retire in eight months, added: "Everyone I have ever worked with has clearly known I am a Christian: it is what motivates me to care for others."

Why not do it for it's own good , or even just for the money rather than for some reward in the afterlife?

Quote:

"This blatant piece of political correctness amounts to the marginalising of employees' personal human rights, a blanket 'secularising and neutralising' of the NHS intended to stop Christians from expressing their faith in the public services of the NHS."

Mrs Chaplin is being supported by her minister, the Rev John Eustice, of Christ Church, Exeter, and has sought advice from the Christian Legal Centre (CLC), which has instructed human rights barrister Paul Diamond, who advised Caroline Petrie, the nurse who was suspended for offering to pray for a patient but was later reinstated.

Barrister Andrea Minichiello Williams, founder of the CLC, said: "I think members of the public, including Shirley's thousands of former patients over the years, will be astonished at the request from her employer to remove a personal item which clearly expresses something of the love and care she has for people which first led her into the nursing profession.

Quote:

"This agenda is leading to case after case of discrimination against Christians and real suffering.

"We will be assisting Shirley to hold out for her human rights - and expect the public en masse to do so as well."

Real suffering? Yeah right.

More here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...n-1790595.html

shandyjan · 20th September 2009, 12:17 PM

I can only go from friends who are nurses in mental health, and they arnt allowed to wear chains or any other jewellyry except wedding rings. Its for safety reasons as stated. Maybe things can be stricter in some hospitals than others, some districts than others, but usually the policy goes right through.
The last religious kerfuffle, everyone got a memo about not discussing religion. Even my partner who works in the ambulance station in repairs and transport!

Cavemonster · 20th September 2009, 12:34 PM

So in reality, she's upset that her religious convictions don't trump the hospital safety standards?

Cavemonster · 20th September 2009, 12:38 PM

Note, this is exactly what I was talking about in the Jedi Thread.

Private institutions have their own practical reasons for a number of restrictions they may want to implement, whether it's about Jewelry or behavior. Why should anyone take away their rights to run their business in the best way?

I'm as liberal as they come, and all in favor of regulating businesses to avoid real harm, but not getting to wear your necklace while on duty is not a real harm. If it were someone who wore the necklace for personal, non-religious reasons, there wouldn't even be a discussion, but somehow religion trumps all other freedoms in the minds of some.

EeneyMinnieMoe · 20th September 2009, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

Why not do it for it's own good , or even just for the money rather than for some reward in the afterlife?

A lot of Christians who are nice people mistakenly credit their good deeds to God. They mistake their own natural human compassion and kindness for good deeds that came about because of their religious beliefs. They don't realize they would do the exact same thing if they were an atheist, agnostic, weak Christian, cultural Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto practitioner or Buddhist.

This does seem like a pretty big overreaction, though. When I was a Catholic, I proudly wore a gold cross every day and only took it off to shower or swim and nothing ever happened to me.

I guess it is possible for a patient to grab at a nurse or a paramedic and hurt them but it is not a serious hazard.

geni · 20th September 2009, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

Note, this is exactly what I was talking about in the Jedi Thread.

Private institutions have their own practical reasons for a number of restrictions they may want to implement, whether it's about Jewelry or behavior. Why should anyone take away their rights to run their business in the best way?

The NHS is not a private instition. It's a state run hospital owned by a goverment that has a version of christianity as the state religion.

Rrose Selavy · 20th September 2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

"The Trust even refused to test the 'breaking strain' on the necklace."

How inconvenient. I suppose hanging might be preferable to crucifixion.

-

Ryan O'Dine · 20th September 2009, 02:50 PM

I don't understand. Are you people suggesting she could be a Christian without wearing bling around her neck?

Doesn't one of the beatitudes compel the believer to spend money on trinkets? Blessed are the in-your-face jewelry wearers, for they shall... dang, how does that end? ... win lawsuits?

Marduk · 20th September 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by geni

The NHS is not a private instition. It's a state run hospital owned by a goverment that has a version of christianity as the state religion.

its obviously the definitive version of christianity
heres the proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Modern_empires

divorce and world domination and all you gotta do is write "CofE" on your birth certificate, church attendance isnt even compulsary

Jesus was English yanno, at the very least its the language hes always speaking on his frequent movie appearences on my tv (Mel Gibson movies excluded on the basis of anti semitic drink drive politics)

Pure Argent · 20th September 2009, 08:31 PM

So will this be radioactive fire and brimstone or regular? If God really wants to do damage, he'll choose radioactive.

Maia · 20th September 2009, 08:32 PM

I've worked at a hospital and a long term care facility, and both had written guidelines that employees could not wear necklaces of any kind. It is a safety issue, and that is that. It's also why they can't wear dangly earrings, long flowing hair that isn't tied back, great big rings, artificial fingernails, blah blah blah, end of story, this entire thing is insane.

fromdownunder · 20th September 2009, 09:00 PM

As an ex Softball/baseball umpire, we had rules which disallowed all jewellery being worn on the field, except for wedding bands which had to be taped over. The reason was obvious - safety. No religious connotations, no discrimination, just common sense in a contact sport where bodies and hard balls are constantly being thrown around.

Norm

pgwenthold · 21st September 2009, 09:07 AM

As noted above, how can she claim religious persecution given that nothing in her religion (as far as anyone knows) says that she has to wear a cross around her neck?

This case doesn't even compare to those silly muslim "my religion says I have to wear a burkha in my driver's license photo" because at least they can claim that it is a requirement of their religion (at least in someone's mind).

If this woman is catholic, all you do is go to the priest and say, "Is there anything in your religious tenets that requires members to wear a crucifix necklace?" The answer will be no. Thus, what she is actually asking for is a special privelidge to promote her religion

Darat · 21st September 2009, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

A lot of Christians who are nice people mistakenly credit their good deeds to God. They mistake their own natural human compassion and kindness for good deeds that came about because of their religious beliefs. They don't realize they would do the exact same thing if they were an atheist, agnostic, weak Christian, cultural Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto practitioner or Buddhist.

This does seem like a pretty big overreaction, though. When I was a Catholic, I proudly wore a gold cross every day and only took it off to shower or swim and nothing ever happened to me.

I guess it is possible for a patient to grab at a nurse or a paramedic and hurt them but it is not a serious hazard.

I do agree it seems a pretty big overreaction - no one is saying she can't wear a crucifix or trying to prevent her from following the tenets of her faith so why is she overreacting in such a manner?

Personally I think it is yet another example of the "Christian Legal Centre" trying to take a non-issue and make it into an issue. Unfortunately they seem rather successful at doing this.

Dragonrock · 21st September 2009, 09:21 AM

Mrs. Rock is a nurse, when she worked ER and ICU the rules were no necklaces, earrings could only be studs, and long hair had to be tied back. This was for the safety of both the patient (so nothing fell off of you and on to them) and the nurse (so nothing could be grabbed and torn).

I also think there was a study that found that the #1 source of cross-patient infection was neckties with jewelry being a close second. Basically it is anything that is repetitively worn while only being washed rarely.

MG1962 · 21st September 2009, 09:36 AM

I used to live near a Catholic hospital, and I must admit to being a little fuzzy but I am sure the nurses were only allowed to wear a tiny cross on the collar of their uniform. But I definately never saw a necklace or other such adornments

ponderingturtle · 22nd September 2009, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I do agree it seems a pretty big overreaction - no one is saying she can't wear a crucifix or trying to prevent her from following the tenets of her faith so why is she overreacting in such a manner?

Personally I think it is yet another example of the "Christian Legal Centre" trying to take a non-issue and make it into an issue. Unfortunately they seem rather successful at doing this.

They need to show all the persecution from the secular world. What is the point of being christian if you can't use it to justify your paranioa?

ponderingturtle · 22nd September 2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

I used to live near a Catholic hospital, and I must admit to being a little fuzzy but I am sure the nurses were only allowed to wear a tiny cross on the collar of their uniform. But I definately never saw a necklace or other such adornments

Yea but everyone knows papists are not true christians.

Professor Yaffle · 22nd September 2009, 07:39 AM

My mam's a nurse and she IS allowed to wear an neckace.

It happens to be a medicalert necklace for Addison's disease though...

Beerina · 22nd September 2009, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

So in reality, she's upset that her religious convictions don't trump the hospital safety standards?

One would hope the hospital had some evidence of it being a useful standard.

Science and all that, you know.

Mojo · 22nd September 2009, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

As noted above, how can she claim religious persecution given that nothing in her religion (as far as anyone knows) says that she has to wear a cross around her neck?

Presumably she (and the staff of the "Christian Legal Centre") hasn't read Matthew 6.

Rrose Selavy · 22nd September 2009, 09:36 AM

There was an online report I saw ages ago about ties being a harbourer of possible germs, etc

bow ties, much less favoured among British doctors than years ago were potentially less harzardous, presumably because of the lack of "hang".

Nursefoxfire · 22nd September 2009, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

There was an online report I saw ages ago about ties being a harbourer of possible germs, etc

bow ties, much less favoured among British doctors than years ago were potentially less harzardous, presumably because of the lack of "hang".

/has images of the bow-tie report being sponsored by the bow-tie manufacturers

IMST · 22nd September 2009, 09:47 AM

If she's so concerned about everyone knowing she's a christian, just get the damn cross tattooed where the necklace would be.

TheAnachronism · 22nd September 2009, 11:22 AM

Couldn't they just let her wear it and have her operate the MRI?

(Yes, I'm evil)

coalesce · 22nd September 2009, 11:42 AM

For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension.

Michael

Steven Howard · 22nd September 2009, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by coalesce

For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension.

That's right. In fact, for all we know, she might even be a space alien from the Planet of Bizarre Contrafactual Hypotheses.

Mojo · 22nd September 2009, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by coalesce

For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension.

Michael

Originally Posted by story quoted in OP

She was not threatened with the sack or disciplinary action, contrary to reports. But she was "redeployed" to a job where her own and patients' safety was not put at risk.

Apparently not.

Mojo · 22nd September 2009, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I do agree it seems a pretty big overreaction - no one is saying she can't wear a crucifix or trying to prevent her from following the tenets of her faith so why is she overreacting in such a manner?

Even she seems to admit that she isn't required to wear it:

Quote:

The spokesman said Mrs Chaplin herself had also admitted wearing a cross was not a requirement of her faith.

It's a little hard to see how a claim of discrimination can be supported.

godless dave · 22nd September 2009, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by coalesce

For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension.

Michael

This is in the UK. The government would just eliminate her pension and say it was necessary for modernisation.

ponderingturtle · 23rd September 2009, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by In My Spare Time

If she's so concerned about everyone knowing she's a christian, just get the damn cross tattooed where the necklace would be.

That wouldn't work, it would be under her shirt.

coalesce · 23rd September 2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Apparently not.

I stand corrected.

Michael

Elizabeth I · 23rd September 2009, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by In My Spare Time

If she's so concerned about everyone knowing she's a christian, just get the damn cross tattooed where the necklace would be.

Tattoos are the work of the Devil. Didn't you get the memo?

Ysidro · 23rd September 2009, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

That wouldn't work, it would be under her shirt.

Then she should wear a damn shirt!

Jackalgirl · 24th September 2009, 12:03 AM

I've got a religious-themed necklace. It's called a shabu, and it's a necklace meant to symbolize the relationship between myself and my spiritual Parent (some people also believe that it shields you from harm, but I myself prefer to do that on my own as much as I can). We're not required to wear it, nor is there even any kind of sentiment that not wearing it is Bad or will get you in Trouble or anything like that.

I made a go at wearing it under my uniform for a while, but I had two problems:

1) (the big one) it showed. It's a string of beads, so it has a tendancy to roll into the crooks of my neck (don't know how else to describe it) and show underneath my t-shirt.

2) Because it showed, people would see it and (literally) yank it out of my shirt and ask about it.

Navy uniform regulations prohibit me from wearing a necklace that is visible. This limits me, basically, to very light and thin strings or chains that won't ride up my neck and be visible from underneath the t-shirts. Big ol' strings of beads won't do.

My reaction? I don't wear the necklace. Perhaps, one day, I'll see about making a shabu "lite" that will ride under my t-shirt and stay there where it belongs. But the difference between me and this nurse is that if I did wear it, it would be as a reminder to me of my relationship with my religions and its tenants, not as an advertisement to the world ("Look at me! I'm Kemetic Orthodox!"), and I certainly don't think it infringes on my religious freedom or my freedom of expression that I can't wear it. Plus, I can't stand it when people lunge into my personal space and yank on stuff that's wrapped around my throat.

Andrew Wiggin · 24th September 2009, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I guess it is possible for a patient to grab at a nurse or a paramedic and hurt them but it is not a serious hazard.

I take it you don't work in healthcare. This most certainly is a serious issue, and one that almost all healthcare providers have had to face. Especially in behavioral health, but also in emergency medicine, violence against healthcare workers is frequent, and injuries are common.

My own experience has caused me to no longer wear anything around my neck, even the customary stethescope. I was strangled with it by a nice little old lady who mistook 'evaluated for mental status changes' for 'kidnapped by pirates'. I've had a patient try to stab me with a steak knife. I've seen the 'trapeze' from an ortho bed converted into a morning star style mace. I've seen poop flung by human monkeys who should have known better. I've seen a man jumping on a bed stark naked, screaming at the top of his lungs, bleeding from his penis where he'd forcefully removed a catheter, swinging an IV pole at any staff member who came close enough in their tries to assist him. I've had to take my own co-workers down to the ED to be seen after patient incidents ended in broken bones. This is just for starters. I could fill pages with this stuff, and so could almost any healthcare worker.

A

~enigma~ · 24th September 2009, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by TheAnachronism

Couldn't they just let her wear it and have her operate the MRI?

(Yes, I'm evil)

Swallow it first.....I am eviler

linusrichard · 24th September 2009, 08:16 PM

I like how it's her Christianity that motivates her to care for people, but when told that wearing the cross will cost her the opportunity to continue caring for people, she picks the jewelry.

Is there a "Jesus facepalm" picture out there?

psychictv · 24th September 2009, 08:51 PM

I'm sure she would never complain if I came to her bedside wearing an inverted pentagram necklace.

20th September 2009, 12:03 PM	#1
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,930	Another Christian nurse moved amid necklace ban Quote: A Christian nurse was taken off frontline duties after she refused to take off a necklace bearing a cross. Shirley Chaplin said she believed The Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Trust Hospital was trying to prevent her from expressing religious beliefs. But the trust said the policy had nothing to do with the crucifix specifically, and was motivated by health and safety concerns about patients grabbing necklaces. Mrs Chaplin, 54, from Exeter, said: "For about 30 years I have worked in the NHS and nursed patients day and night and on no occasion has my cross caused me or anyone else any injury - and to my knowledge, no patient has ever complained about me wearing it. "The Trust even refused to test the 'breaking strain' on the necklace." Mrs Chaplin, who is due to retire in eight months, added: "Everyone I have ever worked with has clearly known I am a Christian: it is what motivates me to care for others." Why not do it for it's own good , or even just for the money rather than for some reward in the afterlife? Quote: "This blatant piece of political correctness amounts to the marginalising of employees' personal human rights, a blanket 'secularising and neutralising' of the NHS intended to stop Christians from expressing their faith in the public services of the NHS." Mrs Chaplin is being supported by her minister, the Rev John Eustice, of Christ Church, Exeter, and has sought advice from the Christian Legal Centre (CLC), which has instructed human rights barrister Paul Diamond, who advised Caroline Petrie, the nurse who was suspended for offering to pray for a patient but was later reinstated. Barrister Andrea Minichiello Williams, founder of the CLC, said: "I think members of the public, including Shirley's thousands of former patients over the years, will be astonished at the request from her employer to remove a personal item which clearly expresses something of the love and care she has for people which first led her into the nursing profession. Quote: "This agenda is leading to case after case of discrimination against Christians and real suffering. "We will be assisting Shirley to hold out for her human rights - and expect the public en masse to do so as well." Real suffering? Yeah right. More here: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...n-1790595.html
	Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 20th September 2009 at 12:06 PM.

20th September 2009, 12:17 PM	#2
shandyjan Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 2,111	I can only go from friends who are nurses in mental health, and they arnt allowed to wear chains or any other jewellyry except wedding rings. Its for safety reasons as stated. Maybe things can be stricter in some hospitals than others, some districts than others, but usually the policy goes right through. The last religious kerfuffle, everyone got a memo about not discussing religion. Even my partner who works in the ambulance station in repairs and transport!
	__________________ Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's A dog is for life, not just for xmas!

20th September 2009, 12:34 PM	#3
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	So in reality, she's upset that her religious convictions don't trump the hospital safety standards?
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

20th September 2009, 12:38 PM	#4
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	Note, this is exactly what I was talking about in the Jedi Thread. Private institutions have their own practical reasons for a number of restrictions they may want to implement, whether it's about Jewelry or behavior. Why should anyone take away their rights to run their business in the best way? I'm as liberal as they come, and all in favor of regulating businesses to avoid real harm, but not getting to wear your necklace while on duty is not a real harm. If it were someone who wore the necklace for personal, non-religious reasons, there wouldn't even be a discussion, but somehow religion trumps all other freedoms in the minds of some.
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

20th September 2009, 01:04 PM	#5
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,660	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy Why not do it for it's own good , or even just for the money rather than for some reward in the afterlife? A lot of Christians who are nice people mistakenly credit their good deeds to God. They mistake their own natural human compassion and kindness for good deeds that came about because of their religious beliefs. They don't realize they would do the exact same thing if they were an atheist, agnostic, weak Christian, cultural Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto practitioner or Buddhist. This does seem like a pretty big overreaction, though. When I was a Catholic, I proudly wore a gold cross every day and only took it off to shower or swim and nothing ever happened to me. I guess it is possible for a patient to grab at a nurse or a paramedic and hurt them but it is not a serious hazard.
	__________________ Help Robert out- please visit (Stop) Sylvia Browne ! StopJohnofGod.blogspot.com Last edited by EeneyMinnieMoe; 20th September 2009 at 01:09 PM.

20th September 2009, 01:17 PM	#6
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by Cavemonster Note, this is exactly what I was talking about in the Jedi Thread. Private institutions have their own practical reasons for a number of restrictions they may want to implement, whether it's about Jewelry or behavior. Why should anyone take away their rights to run their business in the best way? The NHS is not a private instition. It's a state run hospital owned by a goverment that has a version of christianity as the state religion.

20th September 2009, 01:33 PM	#7
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,930	Quote: "The Trust even refused to test the 'breaking strain' on the necklace." How inconvenient. I suppose hanging might be preferable to crucifixion. -

20th September 2009, 02:50 PM	#8
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you’ll find me eventually Posts: 1,184	I don't understand. Are you people suggesting she could be a Christian without wearing bling around her neck? Doesn't one of the beatitudes compel the believer to spend money on trinkets? Blessed are the in-your-face jewelry wearers, for they shall... dang, how does that end? ... win lawsuits?
	__________________ I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)

20th September 2009, 06:18 PM	#9
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by geni The NHS is not a private instition. It's a state run hospital owned by a goverment that has a version of christianity as the state religion. its obviously the definitive version of christianity heres the proof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Modern_empires divorce and world domination and all you gotta do is write "CofE" on your birth certificate, church attendance isnt even compulsary Jesus was English yanno, at the very least its the language hes always speaking on his frequent movie appearences on my tv (Mel Gibson movies excluded on the basis of anti semitic drink drive politics)
	Last edited by Marduk; 20th September 2009 at 06:19 PM.

20th September 2009, 08:31 PM	#10
Pure Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 6,259	So will this be radioactive fire and brimstone or regular? If God really wants to do damage, he'll choose radioactive.
	__________________ "Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

20th September 2009, 08:32 PM	#11
Maia Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,261	I've worked at a hospital and a long term care facility, and both had written guidelines that employees could not wear necklaces of any kind. It is a safety issue, and that is that. It's also why they can't wear dangly earrings, long flowing hair that isn't tied back, great big rings, artificial fingernails, blah blah blah, end of story, this entire thing is insane.
	__________________ Satan, aka Precious the Cat-- the Comic! Come and read at Stripgenerator!

20th September 2009, 09:00 PM	#12
fromdownunder Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,095	As an ex Softball/baseball umpire, we had rules which disallowed all jewellery being worn on the field, except for wedding bands which had to be taped over. The reason was obvious - safety. No religious connotations, no discrimination, just common sense in a contact sport where bodies and hard balls are constantly being thrown around. Norm

21st September 2009, 09:07 AM	#13
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	As noted above, how can she claim religious persecution given that nothing in her religion (as far as anyone knows) says that she has to wear a cross around her neck? This case doesn't even compare to those silly muslim "my religion says I have to wear a burkha in my driver's license photo" because at least they can claim that it is a requirement of their religion (at least in someone's mind). If this woman is catholic, all you do is go to the priest and say, "Is there anything in your religious tenets that requires members to wear a crucifix necklace?" The answer will be no. Thus, what she is actually asking for is a special privelidge to promote her religion
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

21st September 2009, 09:19 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe A lot of Christians who are nice people mistakenly credit their good deeds to God. They mistake their own natural human compassion and kindness for good deeds that came about because of their religious beliefs. They don't realize they would do the exact same thing if they were an atheist, agnostic, weak Christian, cultural Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto practitioner or Buddhist. This does seem like a pretty big overreaction, though. When I was a Catholic, I proudly wore a gold cross every day and only took it off to shower or swim and nothing ever happened to me. I guess it is possible for a patient to grab at a nurse or a paramedic and hurt them but it is not a serious hazard. I do agree it seems a pretty big overreaction - no one is saying she can't wear a crucifix or trying to prevent her from following the tenets of her faith so why is she overreacting in such a manner? Personally I think it is yet another example of the "Christian Legal Centre" trying to take a non-issue and make it into an issue. Unfortunately they seem rather successful at doing this.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

21st September 2009, 09:21 AM	#15
Dragonrock Militant Elvisian Tacoist Join Date: May 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 9,856	Mrs. Rock is a nurse, when she worked ER and ICU the rules were no necklaces, earrings could only be studs, and long hair had to be tied back. This was for the safety of both the patient (so nothing fell off of you and on to them) and the nurse (so nothing could be grabbed and torn). I also think there was a study that found that the #1 source of cross-patient infection was neckties with jewelry being a close second. Basically it is anything that is repetitively worn while only being washed rarely.
	__________________ ...it rings a bell in my head that just don't chime...--pillory There is no God but the Great Taco In The Sky and Elvis is his prophet.

21st September 2009, 09:36 AM	#16
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	I used to live near a Catholic hospital, and I must admit to being a little fuzzy but I am sure the nurses were only allowed to wear a tiny cross on the collar of their uniform. But I definately never saw a necklace or other such adornments

22nd September 2009, 07:18 AM	#17
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by Darat I do agree it seems a pretty big overreaction - no one is saying she can't wear a crucifix or trying to prevent her from following the tenets of her faith so why is she overreacting in such a manner? Personally I think it is yet another example of the "Christian Legal Centre" trying to take a non-issue and make it into an issue. Unfortunately they seem rather successful at doing this. They need to show all the persecution from the secular world. What is the point of being christian if you can't use it to justify your paranioa?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

22nd September 2009, 07:20 AM	#18
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by MG1962 I used to live near a Catholic hospital, and I must admit to being a little fuzzy but I am sure the nurses were only allowed to wear a tiny cross on the collar of their uniform. But I definately never saw a necklace or other such adornments Yea but everyone knows papists are not true christians.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

22nd September 2009, 07:39 AM	#19
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,357	My mam's a nurse and she IS allowed to wear an neckace. It happens to be a medicalert necklace for Addison's disease though...
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22nd September 2009, 08:35 AM	#20
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Cavemonster So in reality, she's upset that her religious convictions don't trump the hospital safety standards? One would hope the hospital had some evidence of it being a useful standard. Science and all that, you know.
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22nd September 2009, 08:51 AM	#21
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,101	Originally Posted by pgwenthold As noted above, how can she claim religious persecution given that nothing in her religion (as far as anyone knows) says that she has to wear a cross around her neck? Presumably she (and the staff of the "Christian Legal Centre") hasn't read Matthew 6.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 22nd September 2009 at 08:53 AM.

22nd September 2009, 09:36 AM	#22
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,930	There was an online report I saw ages ago about ties being a harbourer of possible germs, etc bow ties, much less favoured among British doctors than years ago were potentially less harzardous, presumably because of the lack of "hang".

22nd September 2009, 09:40 AM	#23
Nursefoxfire Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,197	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy There was an online report I saw ages ago about ties being a harbourer of possible germs, etc bow ties, much less favoured among British doctors than years ago were potentially less harzardous, presumably because of the lack of "hang". /has images of the bow-tie report being sponsored by the bow-tie manufacturers

22nd September 2009, 09:47 AM	#24
IMST If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,130	If she's so concerned about everyone knowing she's a christian, just get the damn cross tattooed where the necklace would be.
	__________________ Creativity is more than just being different. Anybody can plan weird; that's easy. What's hard is to be as simple as Bach. Making the simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. - Charles Mingus

22nd September 2009, 11:22 AM	#25
TheAnachronism Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 441	Couldn't they just let her wear it and have her operate the MRI? (Yes, I'm evil)
	__________________ "Even a long human life adds up to only about 650,000 hours. And when that modest milestone flashes past, or at some other point thereabouts, for reasons unknown your atoms will shut you down, silently disassemble, and go off to be other things. And that's it for you....Still, you may rejoice that it happens at all." Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything

22nd September 2009, 11:42 AM	#26
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 3,354	For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension. Michael
	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!"

22nd September 2009, 12:57 PM	#27
Steven Howard Custom Title Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,798	Originally Posted by coalesce For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension. That's right. In fact, for all we know, she might even be a space alien from the Planet of Bizarre Contrafactual Hypotheses.
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22nd September 2009, 01:17 PM	#28
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,101	Originally Posted by coalesce For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension. Michael Originally Posted by story quoted in OP She was not threatened with the sack or disciplinary action, contrary to reports. But she was "redeployed" to a job where her own and patients' safety was not put at risk. Apparently not.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

22nd September 2009, 01:21 PM	#29
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,101	Originally Posted by Darat I do agree it seems a pretty big overreaction - no one is saying she can't wear a crucifix or trying to prevent her from following the tenets of her faith so why is she overreacting in such a manner? Even she seems to admit that she isn't required to wear it: Quote: The spokesman said Mrs Chaplin herself had also admitted wearing a cross was not a requirement of her faith. It's a little hard to see how a claim of discrimination can be supported.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

22nd September 2009, 01:32 PM	#30
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,131	Originally Posted by coalesce For all we know, the hospital may have let her go early if they didn't want to pay her pension. Michael This is in the UK. The government would just eliminate her pension and say it was necessary for modernisation.
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23rd September 2009, 07:19 AM	#31
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by In My Spare Time If she's so concerned about everyone knowing she's a christian, just get the damn cross tattooed where the necklace would be. That wouldn't work, it would be under her shirt.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd September 2009, 07:20 AM	#32
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 3,354	Originally Posted by Mojo Apparently not. I stand corrected. Michael
	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!"

23rd September 2009, 11:38 AM	#33
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,269	Originally Posted by In My Spare Time If she's so concerned about everyone knowing she's a christian, just get the damn cross tattooed where the necklace would be. Tattoos are the work of the Devil. Didn't you get the memo?
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23rd September 2009, 12:29 PM	#34
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle That wouldn't work, it would be under her shirt. Then she should wear a damn shirt!
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24th September 2009, 12:03 AM	#35
Jackalgirl Ping Jockey Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Honshu, Japan Posts: 1,787	I've got a religious-themed necklace. It's called a shabu, and it's a necklace meant to symbolize the relationship between myself and my spiritual Parent (some people also believe that it shields you from harm, but I myself prefer to do that on my own as much as I can). We're not required to wear it, nor is there even any kind of sentiment that not wearing it is Bad or will get you in Trouble or anything like that. I made a go at wearing it under my uniform for a while, but I had two problems: 1) (the big one) it showed. It's a string of beads, so it has a tendancy to roll into the crooks of my neck (don't know how else to describe it) and show underneath my t-shirt. 2) Because it showed, people would see it and (literally) yank it out of my shirt and ask about it. Navy uniform regulations prohibit me from wearing a necklace that is visible. This limits me, basically, to very light and thin strings or chains that won't ride up my neck and be visible from underneath the t-shirts. Big ol' strings of beads won't do. My reaction? I don't wear the necklace. Perhaps, one day, I'll see about making a shabu "lite" that will ride under my t-shirt and stay there where it belongs. But the difference between me and this nurse is that if I did wear it, it would be as a reminder to me of my relationship with my religions and its tenants, not as an advertisement to the world ("Look at me! I'm Kemetic Orthodox!"), and I certainly don't think it infringes on my religious freedom or my freedom of expression that I can't wear it. Plus, I can't stand it when people lunge into my personal space and yank on stuff that's wrapped around my throat.
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