Does election make God unfair?

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 12:12 AM

Does God owe us anything? Why does he have to treat us all the same? If God defines what is right and wrong, and we disagree with him, who is correct?

By God's very nature he is infinite and all knowing. So everything we have that is seemingly "good" comes from him. So why is he evil? The Bible says that our hearts are deceitful, that we think things are right but they are really wrong.

If that is the case, how can any of us say to God that he is evil for allowing those who sin to suffer punishment from God?

Consider the following verses.

Quote:

2 Peter 1:10 (New International Version)
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

We are to assure ourselves that we are part of the elect, through comparing ourselves to scripture.

Quote:

2 Peter 1:3 (New International Version)

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

God gives believers knowledge, and he called them to him by his glory and goodness.

Quote:

Romans 9
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

God selects some to be favored, such as Jacob. Not because of anything Jacob or Esau did, but because of his own plan.

Quote:

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God also has compassion and mercy for those he wills. He also hardens or softens peoples hearts so they do what he wants. This includes bringing people to him for salvation, or keeping others from salvation.

Jesus did this when he spoke in parables. In fact, although God has a general will of people wanting to be saved, his plan required that most are not. Hence the following.

Quote:

Matthew 13
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them

Quote:

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Quote:

God has prepared, in advance, vessels of mercy for glory. Before the foundation of the earth he picked out who would be saved. No one comes to God unless they are called.

Quote:

Ephesians
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

He choose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless. Predestined us to be adopted as his sons.

Jesus picked Judas because he knew Judas would betray him and send him to the cross. He didn't make Judas betray him, but he knew that Judas would do it of his own free will, because God didn't work in his heart.

Quote:

2 Timothy 2
But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

God has called believers not because of anything any of them has done, but because of his own purposes. No one searches for God willingly.

Quote:

Romans 3

(Q) "None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13(R) "Their throat is(S) an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
(T) "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14(U) "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15(V) "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and(W) the way of peace they have not known."
18(X) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Quote:

John 6:37 (English Standard Version)
37(A) All that(B) the Father gives me will come to me, and(C) whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

God the Father gives people to Jesus, and those who he gives will never be cast out. Hence anyone who was selected for salvation before time existed will be saved, and never lose their salvation.

It seems clear to me that the Bible teaches election, unless one twists the meaning of all the verses.

Floyt · 22nd September 2009, 12:18 AM

"Omnipotent/omniscient deity" and "free will" don't match. The output of the painful flailing of apologetics trying to bury this problem under a heap of rhetorics must be approximately girdling the equator by now.

Hokulele · 22nd September 2009, 12:18 AM

So then why was the OT god such an ass to Job and his family just to win a bet?

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Floyt

"Omnipotent/omniscient deity" and "free will" don't match. The output of the painful flailing of apologetics trying to bury this problem under a heap of rhetorics must be approximately girdling the equator by now.

Free will is all about perspective. If you don't know what you will do, you have free will. If someone else knows what you will do, from their perspective, you still have free will, but they know your choice.

I have no problem with this though. I would rather have a God who knows everything, than a God that leaves things to chance.

JonathanClement · 22nd September 2009, 12:21 AM

So why create unsaved people? What's the point? That's absolutely cruel and I refuse to worship a God like that.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

So then why was the OT god such an ass to Job and his family just to win a bet?

God tests believers all the time. Nothing wrong with that, he is God after all, and he wouldn't do that unless it improved believers lives in faith.

lionking · 22nd September 2009, 12:24 AM

Is this the same god that is going to destroy SF and LA in a week with fire and brimstone?

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by JonathanClement

So why create unsaved people? What's the point? That's absolutely cruel and I refuse to worship a God like that.

According to Romans 9 it's to show his glory in vessels of mercy. It also shows his righteousness in judging those who do not do his will.

We know that God isn't cruel, he is just and righteous. He wants all to come to salvation, the Bible is clear on that. But his eternal plan involves allowing people to be punished in hell.

If you refuse to understand or worship a God like that, then you know the consequences. Eternity in the lake of fire.

Hokulele · 22nd September 2009, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God tests believers all the time. Nothing wrong with that, he is God after all, and he wouldn't do that unless it improved believers lives in faith.

How exactly was this fair to Job's wife and kids?

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Is this the same god that is going to destroy SF and LA in a week with fire and brimstone?

Huh? God is going to pour out his wrath on the entire world, but I don't remember the Bible mentioning California in 2009.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

How exactly was this fair to Job's wife and kids?

Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation. If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God.

Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things.

Hokulele · 22nd September 2009, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation. If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God.

Which is what makes the your god an ass. "Good" my foot.

Quote:

Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things.

So not only is your god an ass, but a cowardly one afraid to do his own dirty work at that.

(Hint, why was Satan torturing the poor schmoe and his family?)

hgc · 22nd September 2009, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation. If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God.

"God has the right..."

That's about the funniest thing I've ever seen said about the omniscient one. What it means is that God has the power, and uses it as he sees fit -- no explanation necessary. And, well, might makes right.

Quote:

Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things.

"And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand." -Job 1:12

Nah, God had nothing to do with it.

You fail at apologetics. Keep the day job.

fromdownunder · 22nd September 2009, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

(Hint, why was Satan torturing the poor schmoe and his family?)

Ooohhh! Ask me. Because they were doing lunch together, and had a bet over whether Job would stay devoted to God? And then God specifically allowed Satan to total Jobs family, property, and commit all sorts of other vile obscene things? God let these things happen and approved of them, because of a bet He wanted to win.

Norm

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Does God owe us anything? Why does he have to treat us all the same? If God defines what is right and wrong, and we disagree with him, who is correct?

By God's very nature he is infinite and all knowing. So everything we have that is seemingly "good" comes from him. So why is he evil? The Bible says that our hearts are deceitful, that we think things are right but they are really wrong.

If that is the case, how can any of us say to God that he is evil for allowing those who sin to suffer punishment from God?

If we think things are right when they are really wrong, why have interpretations of scripture changed so radically over time. Surely, if only God knows what is good and what is evil, our acts should only be judged by the words of the Bible.

So, during the times of Moses, were parents justified in stoning to death disobedient children? Or did Jews working on the Sabbath deserve death? What about Jews who ate shellfish? What punishment did they deserve? I know many argue these laws no longer apply, but were such punishments ever justified?

Did the babies that died during the global flood deserve it? Or the babies killed during the tenth Egyptian plague? After all, God hardened Pharaoh's heart and then killed Egypt's first-born children. If only God can say what is good and what is evil, were these killings good?

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God selects some to be favored, such as Jacob. Not because of anything Jacob or Esau did, but because of his own plan.

Why didn't God just make Jacob the eldest? Why did God give Isaac two children and then require Isaac to be deceived?

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God has prepared, in advance, vessels of mercy for glory. Before the foundation of the earth he picked out who would be saved. No one comes to God unless they are called.

He choose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless. Predestined us to be adopted as his sons.

And creating people who are pre-destined to reject God, and, thereby, be rejected by God makes him evil.

I'll take that back. The god of the Bible displays both good and bad properties. He is not all-good, but neither is he all-bad. Actually, he just comes across as human.

lionking · 22nd September 2009, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Huh? God is going to pour out his wrath on the entire world, but I don't remember the Bible mentioning California in 2009.

You bible bashers should get your act together:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152751

lionking · 22nd September 2009, 12:56 AM

This one as well:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154436

arthwollipot · 22nd September 2009, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things.

At God's command. Job 1:12:

Quote:

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.

Also in 2:6, it is clear that Satan goes forth at God's command to torment Job. Furthermore, if you take a look at Job 10, it is clear that Job is not appealing to Satan for mercy, but to God. Job 16:11:

Quote:

God has turned me over to evil men and thrown me into the clutches of the wicked.

God, not Satan. To put a final nail in this coffin, please read Job 40:7. God says to Job:

Quote:

Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

In the King James, it is I will demand of thee. God demands, not Satan. God is the one responsible for Job's torment. God calls Job "the one who contends with the Almighty", not the one who contends with Satan. Satan is merely God's instrument in this whole sad sorry tale.

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation.

If God were human, child protection services would have intervened a long time ago.

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 01:01 AM

Hamelekim,

What is an evil act? If God commits said act, is it still evil?

fishbob · 22nd September 2009, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God.

Him and what army?
Oh, yeah - I forgot for a minute about the Bleevers, they'll do as they are told, pretty much when they are told.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

At God's command. Job 1:12:

Also in 2:6, it is clear that Satan goes forth at God's command to torment Job. Furthermore, if you take a look at Job 10, it is clear that Job is not appealing to Satan for mercy, but to God. Job 16:11:

God, not Satan. To put a final nail in this coffin, please read Job 40:7. God says to Job:

In the King James, it is I will demand of thee. God demands, not Satan. God is the one responsible for Job's torment. God calls Job "the one who contends with the Almighty", not the one who contends with Satan. Satan is merely God's instrument in this whole sad sorry tale.

God used Satan as his instrument, yes. I see nothing wrong with this. If you disagree with God, you are wrong. End of story.

The Bible is clear that we are corrupt, and what seems right to us is wrong.

You can hate God all you want, but that won't change the way things are, and it won't change the fact that God is good, and you just don't understand.

Darat · 22nd September 2009, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

So then why was the OT god such an ass to Job and his family just to win a bet?

Boredom.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

Hamelekim,

What is an evil act? If God commits said act, is it still evil?

What is evil to man is different than what is evil to God. God cannot lie for instance, if he did then he would be sinful, but that is not possible.

God sets the moral rules and he can do whatever he pleases within his nature.

Darat · 22nd September 2009, 01:07 AM

Says who?

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

What is evil to man is different than what is evil to God. God cannot lie for instance, if he did then he would be sinful, but that is not possible.

God sets the moral rules and he can do whatever he pleases within his nature.

Hang on! You say that God cannot lie, because then he would be sinful.

How is that different from saying, God cannot kill, because then he would be sinful - and thus evil?

Didn't Jesus say judgment day would occur before the generation of his disciples passed? How is this not a lie?

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Says who?

God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our morals was created by him.

If he says that our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, then wouldn't he be right?

arthwollipot · 22nd September 2009, 01:12 AM

One of these things is not like the other:

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God used Satan as his instrument, yes.

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things.

Was God responsible for Job's problems or Satan?

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 01:12 AM

I noticed you ignored my questions. Here they are again:

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

So, during the times of Moses, were parents justified in stoning to death disobedient children? Or did Jews working on the Sabbath deserve death? What about Jews who ate shellfish? What punishment did they deserve? I know many argue these laws no longer apply, but were such punishments ever justified?

Did the babies that died during the global flood deserve it? Or the babies killed during the tenth Egyptian plague? After all, God hardened Pharaoh's heart and then killed Egypt's first-born children. If only God can say what is good and what is evil, were these killings good?

Darat · 22nd September 2009, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our morals was created by him.

If he says that our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, then wouldn't he be right?

As I said "Says who?"

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

Hang on! You say that God cannot lie, because then he would be sinful.

How is that different from saying, God cannot kill, because then he would be sinful - and thus evil?

Didn't Jesus say judgment day would occur before the generation of his disciples passed? How is this not a lie?

Killing isn't wrong. Humans killing humans is wrong. That is not God's will. It is God's will to punish sinners, and he has every right to use Israel, or others to punish sinners. Hence Israel killing various groups of people in the OT. God was using Israel as his instrument. They were doing his will, what they did was only alright because they were doing God's will.

Secondly, Jesus didn't say that Judgement day would occur before the generation of his disciples passed.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

I noticed you ignored my questions. Here they are again:

If God commands it, then it is alright to do. Hence all of the OT laws were applicable up until the death of Jesus on the cross.

There is a reason why sacrifices are no longer required, because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, and that law was put into place as a testament as to what Jesus would do in the future.

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our morals was created by him.

If he says that our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, then wouldn't he be right?

God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our ~~morals~~ most evil, heinous acts was created by him.

If ~~he says that~~ our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, ~~then wouldn't he be right~~ isn't he the source of that corruption?

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

As I said "Says who?"

God says so. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with him on Judgement Day.

I'm sure your logic will be very sound and you will prove your point before spending eternity in the lake of fire.

Robert Oz · 22nd September 2009, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Killing isn't wrong. Humans killing humans is wrong. That is not God's will. It is God's will to punish sinners, and he has every right to use Israel, or others to punish sinners. Hence Israel killing various groups of people in the OT. God was using Israel as his instrument. They were doing his will, what they did was only alright because they were doing God's will.

And that's how terrorists are born. Osama Bin Laden would agree 100%.

Mashuna · 22nd September 2009, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God says so. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with him on Judgement Day.

I'm sure your logic will be very sound and you will prove your point before spending eternity in the lake of fire.

Although I'm sure you'll see it as a holy, just and good eternity of torture.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our ~~morals~~ most evil, heinous acts was created by him.

If ~~he says that~~ our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, ~~then wouldn't he be right~~ isn't he the source of that corruption?

So you disagree with God, who knows everything from eternity? You disagree with his assessment of human morality?

arthwollipot · 22nd September 2009, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Killing isn't wrong. Humans killing humans is wrong. That is not God's will. It is God's will to punish sinners, and he has every right to use Israel, or others to punish sinners. Hence Israel killing various groups of people in the OT. God was using Israel as his instrument. They were doing his will, what they did was only alright because they were doing God's will.

If God told you to kill someone, would you do it?

Darat · 22nd September 2009, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

God says so. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with him on Judgement Day.

I'm sure your logic will be very sound and you will prove your point before spending eternity in the lake of fire.

What a hateful thing to say.

hamelekim · 22nd September 2009, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mashuna

Although I'm sure you'll see it as a holy, just and good eternity of torture.

I don't necessarily think it's fair. But then, I'm not God, and am not perfect. So how can I really know what is right or wrong except I get that from God?

I personally think that everyone should be saved, and that God should have created us perfect and incorruptible from the beginning.

But, as I said, I am not God, so what do I know?

22nd September 2009, 12:12 AM	#1
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Does election make God unfair? Does God owe us anything? Why does he have to treat us all the same? If God defines what is right and wrong, and we disagree with him, who is correct? By God's very nature he is infinite and all knowing. So everything we have that is seemingly "good" comes from him. So why is he evil? The Bible says that our hearts are deceitful, that we think things are right but they are really wrong. If that is the case, how can any of us say to God that he is evil for allowing those who sin to suffer punishment from God? Consider the following verses. Quote: 2 Peter 1:10 (New International Version) 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, We are to assure ourselves that we are part of the elect, through comparing ourselves to scripture. Quote: 2 Peter 1:3 (New International Version) 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. God gives believers knowledge, and he called them to him by his glory and goodness. Quote: Romans 9 10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e] God selects some to be favored, such as Jacob. Not because of anything Jacob or Esau did, but because of his own plan. Quote: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. God also has compassion and mercy for those he wills. He also hardens or softens peoples hearts so they do what he wants. This includes bringing people to him for salvation, or keeping others from salvation. Jesus did this when he spoke in parables. In fact, although God has a general will of people wanting to be saved, his plan required that most are not. Hence the following. Quote: Matthew 13 10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them Quote: 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? Quote: God has prepared, in advance, vessels of mercy for glory. Before the foundation of the earth he picked out who would be saved. No one comes to God unless they are called. Quote: Ephesians 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. He choose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless. Predestined us to be adopted as his sons. Jesus picked Judas because he knew Judas would betray him and send him to the cross. He didn't make Judas betray him, but he knew that Judas would do it of his own free will, because God didn't work in his heart. Quote: 2 Timothy 2 But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day. God has called believers not because of anything any of them has done, but because of his own purposes. No one searches for God willingly. Quote: Romans 3 (Q) "None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 13(R) "Their throat is(S) an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." (T) "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14(U) "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15(V) "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16in their paths are ruin and misery, 17and(W) the way of peace they have not known." 18(X) "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Quote: John 6:37 (English Standard Version) 37(A) All that(B) the Father gives me will come to me, and(C) whoever comes to me I will never cast out. God the Father gives people to Jesus, and those who he gives will never be cast out. Hence anyone who was selected for salvation before time existed will be saved, and never lose their salvation. It seems clear to me that the Bible teaches election, unless one twists the meaning of all the verses.

22nd September 2009, 12:18 AM	#2
Floyt Chordate Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dunedin Posts: 754	"Omnipotent/omniscient deity" and "free will" don't match. The output of the painful flailing of apologetics trying to bury this problem under a heap of rhetorics must be approximately girdling the equator by now.
	__________________ Science is about finding out which untruths can be asserted so as to make the system tractable, while still achieving an adequate account of what will appear. They had no god; they had no gods; they had no faith. What they appear to have had is a working metaphor. - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Always Coming Home"

22nd September 2009, 12:18 AM	#3
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,351	So then why was the OT god such an ass to Job and his family just to win a bet?
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

22nd September 2009, 12:21 AM	#5
JonathanClement Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 193	So why create unsaved people? What's the point? That's absolutely cruel and I refuse to worship a God like that.
JonathanClement Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 193

22nd September 2009, 12:24 AM	#7
lionking Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 12,135	Is this the same god that is going to destroy SF and LA in a week with fire and brimstone?
	__________________ You must believe in free will; there is no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer

22nd September 2009, 12:21 AM	#4
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Floyt "Omnipotent/omniscient deity" and "free will" don't match. The output of the painful flailing of apologetics trying to bury this problem under a heap of rhetorics must be approximately girdling the equator by now. Free will is all about perspective. If you don't know what you will do, you have free will. If someone else knows what you will do, from their perspective, you still have free will, but they know your choice. I have no problem with this though. I would rather have a God who knows everything, than a God that leaves things to chance.

22nd September 2009, 12:23 AM	#6
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Hokulele So then why was the OT god such an ass to Job and his family just to win a bet? God tests believers all the time. Nothing wrong with that, he is God after all, and he wouldn't do that unless it improved believers lives in faith.

22nd September 2009, 12:28 AM	#8
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by JonathanClement So why create unsaved people? What's the point? That's absolutely cruel and I refuse to worship a God like that. According to Romans 9 it's to show his glory in vessels of mercy. It also shows his righteousness in judging those who do not do his will. We know that God isn't cruel, he is just and righteous. He wants all to come to salvation, the Bible is clear on that. But his eternal plan involves allowing people to be punished in hell. If you refuse to understand or worship a God like that, then you know the consequences. Eternity in the lake of fire.

22nd September 2009, 12:29 AM	#9
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,351	Originally Posted by hamelekim God tests believers all the time. Nothing wrong with that, he is God after all, and he wouldn't do that unless it improved believers lives in faith. How exactly was this fair to Job's wife and kids?
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

22nd September 2009, 12:29 AM	#10
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by lionking Is this the same god that is going to destroy SF and LA in a week with fire and brimstone? Huh? God is going to pour out his wrath on the entire world, but I don't remember the Bible mentioning California in 2009.

22nd September 2009, 12:33 AM	#11
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Hokulele How exactly was this fair to Job's wife and kids? Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation. If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God. Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things.

22nd September 2009, 12:35 AM	#12
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,351	Originally Posted by hamelekim Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation. If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God. Which is what makes the your god an ass. "Good" my foot. Quote: Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things. So not only is your god an ass, but a cowardly one afraid to do his own dirty work at that. (Hint, why was Satan torturing the poor schmoe and his family?)
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

22nd September 2009, 12:45 AM	#13
hgc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9,013	Originally Posted by hamelekim Firstly, God has the right to do what he wants with his creation. If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God. "God has the right..." That's about the funniest thing I've ever seen said about the omniscient one. What it means is that God has the power, and uses it as he sees fit -- no explanation necessary. And, well, might makes right. Quote: Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things. "And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand." -Job 1:12 Nah, God had nothing to do with it. You fail at apologetics. Keep the day job.
hgc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9,013	__________________ "Swine breath is an atmosphere stabilizer." - PA, The Village

22nd September 2009, 12:45 AM	#14
fromdownunder Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,527	Originally Posted by Hokulele (Hint, why was Satan torturing the poor schmoe and his family?) Ooohhh! Ask me. Because they were doing lunch together, and had a bet over whether Job would stay devoted to God? And then God specifically allowed Satan to total Jobs family, property, and commit all sorts of other vile obscene things? God let these things happen and approved of them, because of a bet He wanted to win. Norm

22nd September 2009, 12:53 AM	#15
Robert Oz Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 796	Originally Posted by hamelekim Does God owe us anything? Why does he have to treat us all the same? If God defines what is right and wrong, and we disagree with him, who is correct? By God's very nature he is infinite and all knowing. So everything we have that is seemingly "good" comes from him. So why is he evil? The Bible says that our hearts are deceitful, that we think things are right but they are really wrong. If that is the case, how can any of us say to God that he is evil for allowing those who sin to suffer punishment from God? If we think things are right when they are really wrong, why have interpretations of scripture changed so radically over time. Surely, if only God knows what is good and what is evil, our acts should only be judged by the words of the Bible. So, during the times of Moses, were parents justified in stoning to death disobedient children? Or did Jews working on the Sabbath deserve death? What about Jews who ate shellfish? What punishment did they deserve? I know many argue these laws no longer apply, but were such punishments ever justified? Did the babies that died during the global flood deserve it? Or the babies killed during the tenth Egyptian plague? After all, God hardened Pharaoh's heart and then killed Egypt's first-born children. If only God can say what is good and what is evil, were these killings good? Originally Posted by hamelekim God selects some to be favored, such as Jacob. Not because of anything Jacob or Esau did, but because of his own plan. Why didn't God just make Jacob the eldest? Why did God give Isaac two children and then require Isaac to be deceived? Originally Posted by hamelekim God has prepared, in advance, vessels of mercy for glory. Before the foundation of the earth he picked out who would be saved. No one comes to God unless they are called. He choose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless. Predestined us to be adopted as his sons. And creating people who are pre-destined to reject God, and, thereby, be rejected by God makes him evil. I'll take that back. The god of the Bible displays both good and bad properties. He is not all-good, but neither is he all-bad. Actually, he just comes across as human.
	__________________ Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Robin: "Gosh, Batman, is there anything you don't know?" Batman: "Oh yes, Robin. Several things, in fact."

22nd September 2009, 12:55 AM	#16
lionking Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 12,135	Originally Posted by hamelekim Huh? God is going to pour out his wrath on the entire world, but I don't remember the Bible mentioning California in 2009. You bible bashers should get your act together: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152751
	__________________ You must believe in free will; there is no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer

22nd September 2009, 12:56 AM	#17
lionking Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 12,135	This one as well: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154436
	__________________ You must believe in free will; there is no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer

22nd September 2009, 12:58 AM	#18
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	Originally Posted by hamelekim Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things. At God's command. Job 1:12: Quote: The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger. Also in 2:6, it is clear that Satan goes forth at God's command to torment Job. Furthermore, if you take a look at Job 10, it is clear that Job is not appealing to Satan for mercy, but to God. Job 16:11: Quote: God has turned me over to evil men and thrown me into the clutches of the wicked. God, not Satan. To put a final nail in this coffin, please read Job 40:7. God says to Job: Quote: Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. In the King James, it is I will demand of thee. God demands, not Satan. God is the one responsible for Job's torment. God calls Job "the one who contends with the Almighty", not the one who contends with Satan. Satan is merely God's instrument in this whole sad sorry tale.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

22nd September 2009, 01:01 AM	#20
Robert Oz Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 796	Hamelekim, What is an evil act? If God commits said act, is it still evil?
	__________________ Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Robin: "Gosh, Batman, is there anything you don't know?" Batman: "Oh yes, Robin. Several things, in fact."

22nd September 2009, 01:02 AM	#21
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 4,758	Originally Posted by hamelekim If he chooses to destroy the unrighteous, which is all of humanity, that is his right as God. Him and what army? Oh, yeah - I forgot for a minute about the Bleevers, they'll do as they are told, pretty much when they are told.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder Arlen Specter to Alberto Gonzales: "You may be treading on your interdiction and violating common sense, Mr. Attorney General." I hate bigots.

22nd September 2009, 01:03 AM	#22
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by arthwollipot At God's command. Job 1:12: Also in 2:6, it is clear that Satan goes forth at God's command to torment Job. Furthermore, if you take a look at Job 10, it is clear that Job is not appealing to Satan for mercy, but to God. Job 16:11: God, not Satan. To put a final nail in this coffin, please read Job 40:7. God says to Job: In the King James, it is I will demand of thee. God demands, not Satan. God is the one responsible for Job's torment. God calls Job "the one who contends with the Almighty", not the one who contends with Satan. Satan is merely God's instrument in this whole sad sorry tale. God used Satan as his instrument, yes. I see nothing wrong with this. If you disagree with God, you are wrong. End of story. The Bible is clear that we are corrupt, and what seems right to us is wrong. You can hate God all you want, but that won't change the way things are, and it won't change the fact that God is good, and you just don't understand.

22nd September 2009, 01:05 AM	#23
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,707	Originally Posted by Hokulele So then why was the OT god such an ass to Job and his family just to win a bet? Boredom.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

22nd September 2009, 01:05 AM	#24
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Robert Oz Hamelekim, What is an evil act? If God commits said act, is it still evil? What is evil to man is different than what is evil to God. God cannot lie for instance, if he did then he would be sinful, but that is not possible. God sets the moral rules and he can do whatever he pleases within his nature.

22nd September 2009, 01:07 AM	#25
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,707	Says who?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

22nd September 2009, 01:11 AM	#26
Robert Oz Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 796	Originally Posted by hamelekim What is evil to man is different than what is evil to God. God cannot lie for instance, if he did then he would be sinful, but that is not possible. God sets the moral rules and he can do whatever he pleases within his nature. Hang on! You say that God cannot lie, because then he would be sinful. How is that different from saying, God cannot kill, because then he would be sinful - and thus evil? Didn't Jesus say judgment day would occur before the generation of his disciples passed? How is this not a lie?
	__________________ Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Robin: "Gosh, Batman, is there anything you don't know?" Batman: "Oh yes, Robin. Several things, in fact."

22nd September 2009, 01:11 AM	#27
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Darat Says who? God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our morals was created by him. If he says that our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, then wouldn't he be right?

22nd September 2009, 01:12 AM	#28
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	One of these things is not like the other: Originally Posted by hamelekim God used Satan as his instrument, yes. Originally Posted by hamelekim Secondly, God didn't do anything to Job, it was Satan who did those things. Was God responsible for Job's problems or Satan?
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

22nd September 2009, 01:13 AM	#30
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,707	Originally Posted by hamelekim God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our morals was created by him. If he says that our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, then wouldn't he be right? As I said "Says who?"
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

22nd September 2009, 01:13 AM	#31
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Robert Oz Hang on! You say that God cannot lie, because then he would be sinful. How is that different from saying, God cannot kill, because then he would be sinful - and thus evil? Didn't Jesus say judgment day would occur before the generation of his disciples passed? How is this not a lie? Killing isn't wrong. Humans killing humans is wrong. That is not God's will. It is God's will to punish sinners, and he has every right to use Israel, or others to punish sinners. Hence Israel killing various groups of people in the OT. God was using Israel as his instrument. They were doing his will, what they did was only alright because they were doing God's will. Secondly, Jesus didn't say that Judgement day would occur before the generation of his disciples passed.

22nd September 2009, 01:16 AM	#32
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Robert Oz I noticed you ignored my questions. Here they are again: If God commands it, then it is alright to do. Hence all of the OT laws were applicable up until the death of Jesus on the cross. There is a reason why sacrifices are no longer required, because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, and that law was put into place as a testament as to what Jesus would do in the future.

22nd September 2009, 01:17 AM	#33
Robert Oz Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 796	Originally Posted by hamelekim God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our morals was created by him. If he says that our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, then wouldn't he be right? God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our ~~morals~~ most evil, heinous acts was created by him. If ~~he says that~~ our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, ~~then wouldn't he be right~~ isn't he the source of that corruption?
	__________________ Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Robin: "Gosh, Batman, is there anything you don't know?" Batman: "Oh yes, Robin. Several things, in fact."

22nd September 2009, 01:17 AM	#34
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Darat As I said "Says who?" God says so. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with him on Judgement Day. I'm sure your logic will be very sound and you will prove your point before spending eternity in the lake of fire.

22nd September 2009, 01:19 AM	#35
Robert Oz Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 796	Originally Posted by hamelekim Killing isn't wrong. Humans killing humans is wrong. That is not God's will. It is God's will to punish sinners, and he has every right to use Israel, or others to punish sinners. Hence Israel killing various groups of people in the OT. God was using Israel as his instrument. They were doing his will, what they did was only alright because they were doing God's will. And that's how terrorists are born. Osama Bin Laden would agree 100%.
	__________________ Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Robin: "Gosh, Batman, is there anything you don't know?" Batman: "Oh yes, Robin. Several things, in fact."

22nd September 2009, 01:21 AM	#36
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 4,122	Originally Posted by hamelekim God says so. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with him on Judgement Day. I'm sure your logic will be very sound and you will prove your point before spending eternity in the lake of fire. Although I'm sure you'll see it as a holy, just and good eternity of torture.
	__________________ By the time I was 14 I was too smart for my own God. - Terry Pratchett Mashuna, you are the king of all awesomosity - Hokulele

22nd September 2009, 01:24 AM	#37
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Robert Oz God. He is the uncaused Cause, he is the root of everything in existence. Our very minds that come up with our ~~morals~~ most evil, heinous acts was created by him. If ~~he says that~~ our minds are corrupt, and our morals twisted, ~~then wouldn't he be right~~ isn't he the source of that corruption? So you disagree with God, who knows everything from eternity? You disagree with his assessment of human morality?