The fall is here...oh rapture!

headscratcher4 · 22nd September 2009, 11:43 AM

http://home.flash.net/~evt/rapture.htm

Methinks he is setting himself up for certain disapointment.

TimCallahan · 22nd September 2009, 11:52 AM

Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end?
If it isn't just me, I wonder what could be sparking this new rash end-time warnings. Could it be desperation over the failure of the world to end in 2000?

HarryKeogh · 22nd September 2009, 11:56 AM

It is a truism that the wackier the fundie the more their website will look like it was designed in 1994.

Simon39759 · 22nd September 2009, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end?
If it isn't just me, I wonder what could be sparking this new rash end-time warnings. Could it be desperation over the failure of the world to end in 2000?

It feels like it.
But then, it feels like the Religious right has been particularly strident since Obama's election. It is not much of a stretch to think that the two are connected. That's an atmosphere of fear and paranoia has been brewing within the Religious right community that motivates people to look for signs of (and design scenario for) the apocalypse...

HansMustermann · 22nd September 2009, 12:48 PM

You know what I don't get about Revelation, though?

I mean, ok, let's say someone saw the future and it was in such detail that he even took a standard reed and measured the sides and height of the city of God. (And incidentally that reed was cubit sized, in 2009. But I digress.)

Wouldn't he freaking notice a few more amazing things about 2009?

I mean, like, "and lo, the roads were black and as one single strip, and thousands of iron chariots moved along without horses drawing them. And even the poorest had one. And on the sides thereof there were bright lights, such that a man could walk at midnight like we walk in the day. And even the most humble shop was brighter lit at night than the Caesar's palace, as if by the light of a thousand candles. And they had big windows covered in glass as clear as the purest water, that in the night you wouldn't even notice they were there, and in the day they shone in the sun like the city was covered in mirrors. And metal birds flew in the skies and made such roar when they came near as the thundering of a thousand horsemen."

Or, I don't know, stuff like, "an lo, in all homes there were strange boxes with glass fronts, on which there were pictures of naked women. And the Lord said it was the work of the Beast, and wicked in his eyes."

I mean, wth, he sees the year 2009, and all he can say about it was that we use credit cards and have ID numbers? It's like going to the Jetson's time and the only thing you have to say about it is that they had different haircuts.

headscratcher4 · 22nd September 2009, 01:00 PM

From the Beyond the Finge Revue, featuring Alan Bennet, Dudly Moore, Peter Cook and Jonathon Miller -- it about sums it up:

How will it be, this end of which you have spoken, Brother Enim?
Omnes: Yes, how will it be?
Peter : Well, it will be, as 'twere a mighty rending in the sky, you see, and the mountains shall sink, you see, and the valleys shall rise, you see, and great shall be the tumult thereof.
Jon : Will the veil of the temple be rent in twain?
Peter : The veil of the temple will be rent in twain about two minutes before we see the sign of the manifest flying beast-head in the sky.
Alan : And will there be a mighty wind, Brother Enim?
Peter : Certainly there will be a mighty wind, if the word of God is anything to go by...
Dudley : And will this wind be so mighty as to lay low the mountains of the earth?
Peter : No - it will not be quite as mighty as that - that is why we have come up on the mountain, you stupid nit - to be safe from it. Up here on the mountain we shall be safe - safe as houses.
Alan : And what will happen to the houses?
Peter : Well, naturally, the houses will be swept away and the tents of the ungodly with them, and they will all be consuméd by the power of the heavens and on earth - and serve them right!
Alan : And shall we be consumed?
Peter : Con..sum..éd? No, we shall not be consuméd - we shall be up on the mountain here, you see, while millions burn, having a bit of a giggle.
Jon : When will it be, this end of which you have spoken?
Omnes : Aye, when will it be - when will it be?
Peter : In about thirty seconds time, according to the ancient pyramidic scrolls... and my Ingersoll watch.
Jon : Shall we compose ourselves, then?
Peter : Good plan, Brother Pithy. Prepare for the End of the World! Fifteen seconds...
Alan : Have we got the tinned food?
Dudley : Yes.
Peter : Ten seconds...
Jon : And the tin-opener?
Dudley : Yes.
Peter : Five - four - three - two - one - Zero!
Omnes : (Chanting) Now is the end - Perish The World!
A pause

Peter : It was GMT, wasn't it?
Jon : Yes.
Peter : Well, it's not quite the conflagration I'd been banking on. Never mind, lads, same time tomorrow... we must get a winner one day.

ClassyElf · 22nd September 2009, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I mean, wth, he sees the year 2009, and all he can say about it was that we use credit cards and have ID numbers?

and you're going to have to do some pretty bizarre metaphorical twisting to get even that out of it.

HeyLeroy · 22nd September 2009, 01:09 PM

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154436

HansMustermann · 22nd September 2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by ClassyElf

and you're going to have to do some pretty bizarre metaphorical twisting to get even that out of it.

Yeah, that too, but I was going to go with the flow on that one, for the scope of this objection.

shandyjan · 22nd September 2009, 07:05 PM

With all these raptures I'm getting confuddled as to which thread Im in. Heck if I drank I'd probably think I was in 2012.

Skeptic Ginger · 22nd September 2009, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end?
If it isn't just me, I wonder what could be sparking this new rash end-time warnings. Could it be desperation over the failure of the world to end in 2000?

Another round number year is approaching.

six7s · 22nd September 2009, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end?

Dunno about an upsurge in predictions...

However, I do know that there's no shortage of threads on it

JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
Rapture Scheduled For Tomorrow

lauwersw · 23rd September 2009, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Another round number year is approaching.

Time to switch to hex instead of decimal?

Still it could be worse, we could all be counting in binary...

sphenisc · 23rd September 2009, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by lauwersw

Time to switch to hex instead of decimal?

Still it could be worse, we could all be counting in binary...

You really think using a number system called "hex" will decrease the amount of woo?

steve s · 23rd September 2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

You know what I don't get about Revelation, though?

I don't get why anyone would take it literally when it's clear that the author was expecting all these things to happen in his lifetime.

Quote:

Revelation 1
Prologue
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Darth Rotor · 23rd September 2009, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by steve s

I don't get why anyone would take it literally when it's clear that the author was expecting all these things to happen in his lifetime.

For generous definitions of "soon" he might be right, or he may have had a temporal miscue during his vision.

Maybe Revelation was John of Patmos' way of saying

The sheriff is near.

SimonD · 23rd September 2009, 10:40 PM

Shouldn't that be 'The fail is here'?

Philip · 23rd September 2009, 10:48 PM

He invokes 2012 also, but comes up with by a different way than the Mayan calendar. I didn't read through that ridiculously long page, but I'd think he wouldn't want to use "pagan" prophecy. (Of course, the Mayans didn't actually indicate that the world ends in 2012; that's just arguably the limit on the notation for their calendar.)

HansMustermann · 24th September 2009, 01:48 AM

Not even close. The Mayans used base 20 numbers, although at one position they actually only count to 18 before rolling over. It's how they get a 360 day year, basically: 18 cycles of 20 days.

There is no indication that the first digit of the long count also would go only up to 13, and, frankly, it never happened before. Assuming that in a base 20 you can only count the centuries up to 13 because the month digit goes only up to 18, is... not very logical. The other two year digits in the long count do go up to 20, so why would the centuries digit only go up to 13 anyway?

Probably more sanely, even if someone wanted to assign some grand signifficance to an all-digits rool over, that won't actually happen until the end of the 20'th baktun. And we're only about to enter the 14'th. That's another 2400 years left.

Mind you, even if one assumed that the centuries digit only goes up to 13, there is nothing against adding an extra digit. Sorta like when our calendar went from year 999 to year 1000. We just moved from 3 digits to 4 digits for the year, and, frankly, that's all that would happen to the Mayan calendar too.

That's not even speculation, the Mayans themselves occasionally _did_ use more than 3 digits for the year, when actually talking about cosmic events in the future or past. They actually have the following date on a monument: 13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13 .13.13.13.0.0.0.0

Philip · 29th September 2009, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Not even close. The Mayans used base 20 numbers, although at one position they actually only count to 18 before rolling over. It's how they get a 360 day year, basically: 18 cycles of 20 days.

There is no indication that the first digit of the long count also would go only up to 13, and, frankly, it never happened before. Assuming that in a base 20 you can only count the centuries up to 13 because the month digit goes only up to 18, is... not very logical. The other two year digits in the long count do go up to 20, so why would the centuries digit only go up to 13 anyway?

Probably more sanely, even if someone wanted to assign some grand signifficance to an all-digits rool over, that won't actually happen until the end of the 20'th baktun. And we're only about to enter the 14'th. That's another 2400 years left.

Mind you, even if one assumed that the centuries digit only goes up to 13, there is nothing against adding an extra digit. Sorta like when our calendar went from year 999 to year 1000. We just moved from 3 digits to 4 digits for the year, and, frankly, that's all that would happen to the Mayan calendar too.

That's not even speculation, the Mayans themselves occasionally _did_ use more than 3 digits for the year, when actually talking about cosmic events in the future or past. They actually have the following date on a monument: 13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13 .13.13.13.0.0.0.0

I guess I should have said that's when some moonbats claim the Mayan calendar ends. I've never studied it. I do know enough about physics and astronomy to call BS on their claims that an alignment of the sun with galactic center will cause devastation on Earth in 2012.

HansMustermann · 29th September 2009, 03:59 AM

That's actually the important part: the Mayan's _didn't_ make any such claim. There is no Mayan prophecy about this date whatsoever.

And, again, if you look at some future dates on their monuments, dates where apparently they did expect something to happen, there are dates which are _millions_ of years into the future. It makes no sense to expect something then, if the world will end now, does it?

The Long Count calendar itself isn't even based on some great and accurate astronomic cycles, and frankly it's a piss-poor calendar. It has 360 day years, so each year it shifts by 5 days... and there is no correction for that whatsoever. By the time a Baktun went by (20x20 such cycles), it'll be off by 400x5=2000 days, i.e., the new year rolled around the actual year some 6 times over.

The whole reason for the cycles of 20 isn't astronomical, it's because the Mayans counted in base 20. So like we divide out time arbitrarily in decades (10 years) and centuries (10x10 years), they divided it in katun (20 years) and baktun (20x20 years.) What's about to end is merely the Mayan equivalent of a century. That's it, really.

Their year itself was 360 years again just because of base 20. Their "months" were 20 days long, with no exception. So 18 months was the closest approximation to a year.

There were other kinds of calendars and tracking cycles which did have some astronomical base.

E.g., the Tzolkin calendar is based on 260 day cycles, which _might_ be based on the 260 day interval between seeing the sun at zenith at some sacred location. But then again, it might be just based on the sacred numbers 13 and 20, or it might have something to do with the length of the human pregnancy from the first missed period. (We count it from the last period.)

E.g., the Haab calendar actually tried to correct the wandering year problem of the Long Count calendar, by adding 5 nameless days at the end of the year. The problem is that it's still off by a quarter of a day, so it still wanders, albeit 20 times slower. The correction doesn't smack of a very astronomically savvy civilization, since, frankly it still misses the mark. And it only comes 3500+ years after the Egyptians had a similar calendar.

E.g., the Calendar Round was based on a combination two of calendars with a 52 year total cycle. The combination was good enough to uniquely identify any date in the life of the vast majority of the humans at the time, since they didn't actually live longer than that. But that's about the best that can be said about it.

Now the end of such a cycle was supposed to be bad luck, but that's (A) not what's supposed to happen in 2012, and (B) not quite end-of-the-world class.

E.g., they actually tracked the cycles of Venus, but really, that was (A) the most advanced astronomy they had, so stuff like alignments with the galaxy centre would have gone above their heads, and (B) not part of any actual calendar. The Long Count is _not_ based on that. They just tracked the position of Venus and the arbitrary start of cycle position was considered to be a good luck time. They started wars and had ceremonies and whatnot when that happened, every 584 day or so.

Note however that even that Venus cycle is still piss-poor astronomy, as done by a primitive people. It tracks the helical cycles of its position as seen from Earth, not its actual position around the Sun or anything. It's just observing a "star's" position for many years and noticing a cycle.

At any rate, even when it comes to Venus, stuff like planet alignments and whatnot would have been way out of their grasp.

Philip · 30th September 2009, 04:35 AM

I shouldn't have used the pronoun "their" when there were two possible antecedents. I meant that the 2012 moonbats claim that a cosmic catastrope will occur, not that the Mayans claimed that.

Thank you for the informative posts.

Jimmy Roberts · 30th September 2009, 05:29 AM

Greetings all,

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

You know what I don't get about Revelation, though?
...

Wouldn't he freaking notice a few more amazing things about 2009?

Apparently, Rev. Chapter 9 predicts helicopters:

Originally Posted by biblefood.com/biblepage8.html

Rev chapter 9 is an amazing description of modern attack helicopters spraying chemical weapons from their tails. The Apostle John described the vision God gave him as accurately as he could, using the most familiar terms of the time he lived in.

We know that what John describes as "locusts" are not literal locusts, because literal locusts destroy green growing things, as in Exodus 10:13-15. But John's "locusts" only hurt men and do not hurt the green growing things. Also, the "locusts" that John saw were obeying commands and have a "king" in verse 11, but, Prov 30:27 says that the literal locusts HAVE NO king.

In Rev 9 Verse 3, they are shaped like locusts or grasshoppers. (A good description of the shape of modern attack helicopters) Verse 7, They looked like horses prepared for battle. (Decked out with all kinds of battle equipment)

Verse 9, They had "armor plating", and "wings" that sounded like many chariots pulled by horses running to battle - an excellent description of a modern helicopter's "thump thumpity thump". Modern helicopters use "boron" armor plating, which is stronger than steel and lighter than aluminum.

<snip>

I'm sure most here have already been exposed to this particular woo. I was force-fed this sort of thing most of my childhood. So much wasted time. It does make me appreciate science more, I think.

Deranged · 2nd October 2009, 11:01 AM

I'm so sick of hearing "near" and "soon" for 2K years. Especially since there has always been an economic motive involved.
On the other hand, I'm as guilty as anyone since I'm scared to death of 2012.

Elizabeth I · 2nd October 2009, 09:04 PM

Quote:

I'm so sick of hearing "near" and "soon" for 2K years. Especially since there has always been an economic motive involved.
On the other hand, I'm as guilty as anyone since I'm scared to death of 2012.

Why on earth?????

longfellow · 2nd October 2009, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Deranged

I'm so sick of hearing "near" and "soon" for 2K years. Especially since there has always been an economic motive involved.
On the other hand, I'm as guilty as anyone since I'm scared to death of 2012.

There is as much to fear concerning 2012 as there was with the Y2K bug.

aviolet4u · 2nd October 2009, 10:18 PM

well you can start fearing every single day of your life then. The truth is anything can happen at any time. Not one day is guaranteed to us. So relax and make the best of each day. BE HAPPY at this moment. Oh and I find laughter is the key..whenever you can ...squeeze it in there.

A nice book is "The Power of Now." It talks of the importance of not letting thoughts about past and future depress and overwhelm you. But to be totally encompassed with each moment as it comes.

22nd September 2009, 11:43 AM	#1
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,424	The fall is here...oh rapture! http://home.flash.net/~evt/rapture.htm Methinks he is setting himself up for certain disapointment.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

22nd September 2009, 01:00 PM	#6
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,424	From the Beyond the Finge Revue, featuring Alan Bennet, Dudly Moore, Peter Cook and Jonathon Miller -- it about sums it up: How will it be, this end of which you have spoken, Brother Enim? Omnes: Yes, how will it be? Peter : Well, it will be, as 'twere a mighty rending in the sky, you see, and the mountains shall sink, you see, and the valleys shall rise, you see, and great shall be the tumult thereof. Jon : Will the veil of the temple be rent in twain? Peter : The veil of the temple will be rent in twain about two minutes before we see the sign of the manifest flying beast-head in the sky. Alan : And will there be a mighty wind, Brother Enim? Peter : Certainly there will be a mighty wind, if the word of God is anything to go by... Dudley : And will this wind be so mighty as to lay low the mountains of the earth? Peter : No - it will not be quite as mighty as that - that is why we have come up on the mountain, you stupid nit - to be safe from it. Up here on the mountain we shall be safe - safe as houses. Alan : And what will happen to the houses? Peter : Well, naturally, the houses will be swept away and the tents of the ungodly with them, and they will all be consuméd by the power of the heavens and on earth - and serve them right! Alan : And shall we be consumed? Peter : Con..sum..éd? No, we shall not be consuméd - we shall be up on the mountain here, you see, while millions burn, having a bit of a giggle. Jon : When will it be, this end of which you have spoken? Omnes : Aye, when will it be - when will it be? Peter : In about thirty seconds time, according to the ancient pyramidic scrolls... and my Ingersoll watch. Jon : Shall we compose ourselves, then? Peter : Good plan, Brother Pithy. Prepare for the End of the World! Fifteen seconds... Alan : Have we got the tinned food? Dudley : Yes. Peter : Ten seconds... Jon : And the tin-opener? Dudley : Yes. Peter : Five - four - three - two - one - Zero! Omnes : (Chanting) Now is the end - Perish The World! A pause Peter : It was GMT, wasn't it? Jon : Yes. Peter : Well, it's not quite the conflagration I'd been banking on. Never mind, lads, same time tomorrow... we must get a winner one day.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

22nd September 2009, 01:09 PM	#8
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,434	http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154436
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22nd September 2009, 07:05 PM	#10
shandyjan Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 1,013	With all these raptures I'm getting confuddled as to which thread Im in. Heck if I drank I'd probably think I was in 2012.
	__________________ Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. ~Ludwig Börne

22nd September 2009, 07:52 PM	#11
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods Posts: 19,317	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end? If it isn't just me, I wonder what could be sparking this new rash end-time warnings. Could it be desperation over the failure of the world to end in 2000? Another round number year is approaching.
	__________________ Sk'p' 'el (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (*Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.)

22nd September 2009, 11:52 AM	#2
TimCallahan Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,000	Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end? If it isn't just me, I wonder what could be sparking this new rash end-time warnings. Could it be desperation over the failure of the world to end in 2000?

22nd September 2009, 11:56 AM	#3
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 10,717	It is a truism that the wackier the fundie the more their website will look like it was designed in 1994.

22nd September 2009, 12:00 PM	#4
Simon39759 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end? If it isn't just me, I wonder what could be sparking this new rash end-time warnings. Could it be desperation over the failure of the world to end in 2000? It feels like it. But then, it feels like the Religious right has been particularly strident since Obama's election. It is not much of a stretch to think that the two are connected. That's an atmosphere of fear and paranoia has been brewing within the Religious right community that motivates people to look for signs of (and design scenario for) the apocalypse...

22nd September 2009, 12:48 PM	#5
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,099	You know what I don't get about Revelation, though? I mean, ok, let's say someone saw the future and it was in such detail that he even took a standard reed and measured the sides and height of the city of God. (And incidentally that reed was cubit sized, in 2009. But I digress.) Wouldn't he freaking notice a few more amazing things about 2009? I mean, like, "and lo, the roads were black and as one single strip, and thousands of iron chariots moved along without horses drawing them. And even the poorest had one. And on the sides thereof there were bright lights, such that a man could walk at midnight like we walk in the day. And even the most humble shop was brighter lit at night than the Caesar's palace, as if by the light of a thousand candles. And they had big windows covered in glass as clear as the purest water, that in the night you wouldn't even notice they were there, and in the day they shone in the sun like the city was covered in mirrors. And metal birds flew in the skies and made such roar when they came near as the thundering of a thousand horsemen." Or, I don't know, stuff like, "an lo, in all homes there were strange boxes with glass fronts, on which there were pictures of naked women. And the Lord said it was the work of the Beast, and wicked in his eyes." I mean, wth, he sees the year 2009, and all he can say about it was that we use credit cards and have ID numbers? It's like going to the Jetson's time and the only thing you have to say about it is that they had different haircuts.

22nd September 2009, 01:07 PM	#7
ClassyElf Scholar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 83	Originally Posted by HansMustermann I mean, wth, he sees the year 2009, and all he can say about it was that we use credit cards and have ID numbers? and you're going to have to do some pretty bizarre metaphorical twisting to get even that out of it.

22nd September 2009, 01:23 PM	#9
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,099	Originally Posted by ClassyElf and you're going to have to do some pretty bizarre metaphorical twisting to get even that out of it. Yeah, that too, but I was going to go with the flow on that one, for the scope of this objection.

22nd September 2009, 08:11 PM	#12
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Is it just me, or has there lately been a sudden upsurge in fundie predictions of the end? Dunno about an upsurge in predictions... However, I do know that there's no shortage of threads on it JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy Rapture Scheduled For Tomorrow
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23rd September 2009, 05:53 AM	#13
lauwersw Student Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 44	Originally Posted by skeptigirl Another round number year is approaching. Time to switch to hex instead of decimal? Still it could be worse, we could all be counting in binary...
lauwersw Student Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 44

23rd September 2009, 06:03 AM	#14
sphenisc Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,290	Originally Posted by lauwersw Time to switch to hex instead of decimal? Still it could be worse, we could all be counting in binary... You really think using a number system called "hex" will decrease the amount of woo?
sphenisc Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,290

23rd September 2009, 02:36 PM	#15
steve s Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,513	Originally Posted by HansMustermann You know what I don't get about Revelation, though? I don't get why anyone would take it literally when it's clear that the author was expecting all these things to happen in his lifetime. Quote: Revelation 1 Prologue 1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
steve s Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,513	__________________ "Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken

23rd September 2009, 10:06 PM	#16
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by steve s I don't get why anyone would take it literally when it's clear that the author was expecting all these things to happen in his lifetime. For generous definitions of "soon" he might be right, or he may have had a temporal miscue during his vision. Maybe Revelation was John of Patmos' way of saying The sheriff is near.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd September 2009, 10:40 PM	#17
SimonD Rouge Element Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Talking with Glyph Posts: 931	Shouldn't that be 'The fail is here'?
	__________________ 'Fear is the mind-killer' - Dune, Frank Herbert 'If there is an intelligent designer, why is the product so flawed?' - Diogenes http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...0&postcount=99

23rd September 2009, 10:48 PM	#18
Philip JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 355	He invokes 2012 also, but comes up with by a different way than the Mayan calendar. I didn't read through that ridiculously long page, but I'd think he wouldn't want to use "pagan" prophecy. (Of course, the Mayans didn't actually indicate that the world ends in 2012; that's just arguably the limit on the notation for their calendar.)
Philip JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 355	__________________ "The church of this country is not only indifferent to the wrongs of the slave, it actually takes sides with the oppressors. For my part I would say, wecome the infidelity! Welcome atheism! Welcome anything in preference to the gospel, as preached by those Divines!" --- Fredrick Douglas.

24th September 2009, 01:48 AM	#19
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,099	Not even close. The Mayans used base 20 numbers, although at one position they actually only count to 18 before rolling over. It's how they get a 360 day year, basically: 18 cycles of 20 days. There is no indication that the first digit of the long count also would go only up to 13, and, frankly, it never happened before. Assuming that in a base 20 you can only count the centuries up to 13 because the month digit goes only up to 18, is... not very logical. The other two year digits in the long count do go up to 20, so why would the centuries digit only go up to 13 anyway? Probably more sanely, even if someone wanted to assign some grand signifficance to an all-digits rool over, that won't actually happen until the end of the 20'th baktun. And we're only about to enter the 14'th. That's another 2400 years left. Mind you, even if one assumed that the centuries digit only goes up to 13, there is nothing against adding an extra digit. Sorta like when our calendar went from year 999 to year 1000. We just moved from 3 digits to 4 digits for the year, and, frankly, that's all that would happen to the Mayan calendar too. That's not even speculation, the Mayans themselves occasionally _did_ use more than 3 digits for the year, when actually talking about cosmic events in the future or past. They actually have the following date on a monument: 13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13 .13.13.13.0.0.0.0

29th September 2009, 01:32 AM	#20
Philip JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 355	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Not even close. The Mayans used base 20 numbers, although at one position they actually only count to 18 before rolling over. It's how they get a 360 day year, basically: 18 cycles of 20 days. There is no indication that the first digit of the long count also would go only up to 13, and, frankly, it never happened before. Assuming that in a base 20 you can only count the centuries up to 13 because the month digit goes only up to 18, is... not very logical. The other two year digits in the long count do go up to 20, so why would the centuries digit only go up to 13 anyway? Probably more sanely, even if someone wanted to assign some grand signifficance to an all-digits rool over, that won't actually happen until the end of the 20'th baktun. And we're only about to enter the 14'th. That's another 2400 years left. Mind you, even if one assumed that the centuries digit only goes up to 13, there is nothing against adding an extra digit. Sorta like when our calendar went from year 999 to year 1000. We just moved from 3 digits to 4 digits for the year, and, frankly, that's all that would happen to the Mayan calendar too. That's not even speculation, the Mayans themselves occasionally _did_ use more than 3 digits for the year, when actually talking about cosmic events in the future or past. They actually have the following date on a monument: 13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13 .13.13.13.0.0.0.0 I guess I should have said that's when some moonbats claim the Mayan calendar ends. I've never studied it. I do know enough about physics and astronomy to call BS on their claims that an alignment of the sun with galactic center will cause devastation on Earth in 2012.
Philip JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 355	__________________ "The church of this country is not only indifferent to the wrongs of the slave, it actually takes sides with the oppressors. For my part I would say, wecome the infidelity! Welcome atheism! Welcome anything in preference to the gospel, as preached by those Divines!" --- Fredrick Douglas.

29th September 2009, 03:59 AM	#21
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,099	That's actually the important part: the Mayan's _didn't_ make any such claim. There is no Mayan prophecy about this date whatsoever. And, again, if you look at some future dates on their monuments, dates where apparently they did expect something to happen, there are dates which are _millions_ of years into the future. It makes no sense to expect something then, if the world will end now, does it? The Long Count calendar itself isn't even based on some great and accurate astronomic cycles, and frankly it's a piss-poor calendar. It has 360 day years, so each year it shifts by 5 days... and there is no correction for that whatsoever. By the time a Baktun went by (20x20 such cycles), it'll be off by 400x5=2000 days, i.e., the new year rolled around the actual year some 6 times over. The whole reason for the cycles of 20 isn't astronomical, it's because the Mayans counted in base 20. So like we divide out time arbitrarily in decades (10 years) and centuries (10x10 years), they divided it in katun (20 years) and baktun (20x20 years.) What's about to end is merely the Mayan equivalent of a century. That's it, really. Their year itself was 360 years again just because of base 20. Their "months" were 20 days long, with no exception. So 18 months was the closest approximation to a year. There were other kinds of calendars and tracking cycles which did have some astronomical base. E.g., the Tzolkin calendar is based on 260 day cycles, which _might_ be based on the 260 day interval between seeing the sun at zenith at some sacred location. But then again, it might be just based on the sacred numbers 13 and 20, or it might have something to do with the length of the human pregnancy from the first missed period. (We count it from the last period.) E.g., the Haab calendar actually tried to correct the wandering year problem of the Long Count calendar, by adding 5 nameless days at the end of the year. The problem is that it's still off by a quarter of a day, so it still wanders, albeit 20 times slower. The correction doesn't smack of a very astronomically savvy civilization, since, frankly it still misses the mark. And it only comes 3500+ years after the Egyptians had a similar calendar. E.g., the Calendar Round was based on a combination two of calendars with a 52 year total cycle. The combination was good enough to uniquely identify any date in the life of the vast majority of the humans at the time, since they didn't actually live longer than that. But that's about the best that can be said about it. Now the end of such a cycle was supposed to be bad luck, but that's (A) not what's supposed to happen in 2012, and (B) not quite end-of-the-world class. E.g., they actually tracked the cycles of Venus, but really, that was (A) the most advanced astronomy they had, so stuff like alignments with the galaxy centre would have gone above their heads, and (B) not part of any actual calendar. The Long Count is _not_ based on that. They just tracked the position of Venus and the arbitrary start of cycle position was considered to be a good luck time. They started wars and had ceremonies and whatnot when that happened, every 584 day or so. Note however that even that Venus cycle is still piss-poor astronomy, as done by a primitive people. It tracks the helical cycles of its position as seen from Earth, not its actual position around the Sun or anything. It's just observing a "star's" position for many years and noticing a cycle. At any rate, even when it comes to Venus, stuff like planet alignments and whatnot would have been way out of their grasp.

30th September 2009, 04:35 AM	#22
Philip JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 355	I shouldn't have used the pronoun "their" when there were two possible antecedents. I meant that the 2012 moonbats claim that a cosmic catastrope will occur, not that the Mayans claimed that. Thank you for the informative posts.
Philip JREF Kid Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 355	__________________ "The church of this country is not only indifferent to the wrongs of the slave, it actually takes sides with the oppressors. For my part I would say, wecome the infidelity! Welcome atheism! Welcome anything in preference to the gospel, as preached by those Divines!" --- Fredrick Douglas.

30th September 2009, 05:29 AM	#23
Jimmy Roberts Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 52	Greetings all, Originally Posted by HansMustermann You know what I don't get about Revelation, though? ... Wouldn't he freaking notice a few more amazing things about 2009? Apparently, Rev. Chapter 9 predicts helicopters: Originally Posted by biblefood.com/biblepage8.html Rev chapter 9 is an amazing description of modern attack helicopters spraying chemical weapons from their tails. The Apostle John described the vision God gave him as accurately as he could, using the most familiar terms of the time he lived in. We know that what John describes as "locusts" are not literal locusts, because literal locusts destroy green growing things, as in Exodus 10:13-15. But John's "locusts" only hurt men and do not hurt the green growing things. Also, the "locusts" that John saw were obeying commands and have a "king" in verse 11, but, Prov 30:27 says that the literal locusts HAVE NO king. In Rev 9 Verse 3, they are shaped like locusts or grasshoppers. (A good description of the shape of modern attack helicopters) Verse 7, They looked like horses prepared for battle. (Decked out with all kinds of battle equipment) Verse 9, They had "armor plating", and "wings" that sounded like many chariots pulled by horses running to battle - an excellent description of a modern helicopter's "thump thumpity thump". Modern helicopters use "boron" armor plating, which is stronger than steel and lighter than aluminum. <snip> I'm sure most here have already been exposed to this particular woo. I was force-fed this sort of thing most of my childhood. So much wasted time. It does make me appreciate science more, I think.
Jimmy Roberts Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 52

2nd October 2009, 11:01 AM	#24
Deranged Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81	I'm so sick of hearing "near" and "soon" for 2K years. Especially since there has always been an economic motive involved. On the other hand, I'm as guilty as anyone since I'm scared to death of 2012.
Deranged Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81

2nd October 2009, 09:04 PM	#25
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 5,125	Quote: I'm so sick of hearing "near" and "soon" for 2K years. Especially since there has always been an economic motive involved. On the other hand, I'm as guilty as anyone since I'm scared to death of 2012. Why on earth?????
	__________________ • There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill • Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. • Eats, Shoots and Leaves: buy it, read it, practice it

2nd October 2009, 09:10 PM	#26
longfellow St. Louis Cardinals Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Baseball Heaven Posts: 180	Originally Posted by Deranged I'm so sick of hearing "near" and "soon" for 2K years. Especially since there has always been an economic motive involved. On the other hand, I'm as guilty as anyone since I'm scared to death of 2012. There is as much to fear concerning 2012 as there was with the Y2K bug.
	__________________ Sometimes I feel as if I'm the Captain of a leaky lifeboat cast endlessly adrift upon a sea of fools. --- NL Pennant wins: 1926, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1964, 1967, 1968, 1982, 1985, 1987, 2004, 2006 World Series wins: 1926, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1944, 1946, 1964, 1967, 1982, 2006

2nd October 2009, 10:18 PM	#27
aviolet4u Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 240	well you can start fearing every single day of your life then. The truth is anything can happen at any time. Not one day is guaranteed to us. So relax and make the best of each day. BE HAPPY at this moment. Oh and I find laughter is the key..whenever you can ...squeeze it in there. A nice book is "The Power of Now." It talks of the importance of not letting thoughts about past and future depress and overwhelm you. But to be totally encompassed with each moment as it comes.
aviolet4u Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 240