British/NASA study says ice melting faster!

Dancing David · 23rd September 2009, 04:31 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090923/...s_sci_big_melt

Yahoo news

"NASA data: Greenland, Antarctic ice melt worsening"

Quote:

British scientists for the first time calculated changes in the height of the vulnerable but massive ice sheets and found them especially worse at their edges. That's where warmer water eats away from below. In some parts of Antarctica, ice sheets have been losing 30 feet a year in thickness since 2003, according to a paper published online Thursday in the journal Nature.

Some of those areas are about a mile thick, so they've still got plenty of ice to burn through. But the drop in thickness is speeding up. In parts of Antarctica, the yearly rate of thinning from 2003 to 2007 is 50 percent higher than it was from 1995 to 2003.

Quote:

As scientists watch ice shelves retreat or just plain collapse, some thought the problem could slow or be temporary. The latest measurements eliminate "the most optimistic view," said Penn State University professor Richard Alley, who wasn't part of the study.

The research found that 81 of the 111 Greenland glaciers surveyed are thinning at an accelerating, self-feeding pace.

The key problem is not heat in the air, but the water near the ice sheets, Pritchard said. The water is not just warmer but its circulation is also adding to the melt.

Skeptical Greg · 23rd September 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

The research found that 81 of the 111Greenland glaciers surveyed are thinning at an accelerating, self-feeding pace.

I wonder what keeps the other thirty from thinning as well ?

Fnord · 23rd September 2009, 04:49 PM

Interesting news. However, what do "they" want "us" to do about it?

Can this phenomenon be reversed in our lifetimes; and if so, how?

If this phenomenon can not be reversed in our lifetimes, then how can it be exploited for profit?

geni · 23rd September 2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Interesting news. However, what do "they" want "us" to do about it?

Can this phenomenon be reversed in our lifetimes; and if so, how?

Chose a large area of land you don't really need. Paint it white.

Fnord · 23rd September 2009, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Chose a large area of land you don't really need. Paint it white.

How large?

As large as mainland China, perhaps?

DogB · 23rd September 2009, 05:21 PM

More equatorial would be better. Maybe Zaire and Sudan.

geni · 23rd September 2009, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

How large?

As large as mainland China, perhaps?

Depends on how much CO2 you want to chuck into the atmosphere. Start at the Canadian boarder (little point in painting snow white) and keep going until the temp starts to drop or you hit Cape Horn.

SezMe · 23rd September 2009, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Can this phenomenon be reversed in our lifetimes; and if so, how?

If this phenomenon can not be reversed in our lifetimes, then how can it be exploited for profit?

Why is our lifetime the criterion period? Why not the next 100 years? 500?

Skeptical Greg · 23rd September 2009, 05:56 PM

If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest..

They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses ..

BenBurch · 23rd September 2009, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest..

They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses ..

Utter BS

DogB · 23rd September 2009, 08:52 PM

Might need to take a quick look around Ben. Seems you've lost your sense of humor somewhere.

rjh01 · 23rd September 2009, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Chose a large area of land you don't really need. Paint it white.

I did hear of an idea to make roads white for this reason. Not sure that it would work. They would not cool as much at night time.

DogB · 24th September 2009, 12:40 AM

Need these.

Quote:

She glanced back as they passed beyond the arch, said: "They hurry to finish the quota in the plastics shop before we flee. We need many dew collectors for the planting."
"Flee?"

"Until the butchers stop hunting us or are driven from our land..."

"What're dew collectors?" he asked.

The glance she turned on him was full of surprise. "Don't they teach you anything in the . . . wherever it is you come from?"

"Not about dew collectors."

"Hai!" she said, and there was a whole conversation in the one word.

"Well, what are they?"

"Each bush, each weed you see out there in the erg," she said, "how do you suppose it lives when we leave it? Each is planted most tenderly in its own little pit. The pits are filled with smooth ovals of chromoplastic. Light turns them white. You can see them glistening in the dawn if you look down from a high place. White reflects. But when Old Father Sun departs, the chromoplastic reverts to transparency in the dark. It cools with extreme rapidity. The surface condenses moisture out of the air. That moisture trickles down to keep our plants alive."

"Dew collectors," he muttered, enchanted by the simple beauty of such a scheme.

From Dune, by Frank Herbert.
Published by Putnam in 1965

quadraginta · 24th September 2009, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest..

They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses ..

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Utter BS

I expect you're right.

It won't need anywhere near 500 years.

50 will be plenty.

Dancing David · 24th September 2009, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest..

They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses ..

Do you live in Leamington ONT by any chance?

Soapy Sam · 24th September 2009, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest..

They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses ..

Depends on your definition of "normal" and the timescale of interest.
For most of the last 200 million years there were no ice caps at all.
The last two million have alternated between warmer and colder.
During the last 130,000 (since the start of the Late Quaternary at the 5e O2 event) we have at least half a dozen major climate flips from colder than now to as warm as or warmer than now.
The Holocene is in no sense an "average" climate period. No such thing seems to exist.

Skeptical Greg · 24th September 2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Depends on your definition of "normal" and the timescale of interest.

' Normal ', is what people have come to expect over any indeterminate period of time...

A couple of generations of Icelandic tomato growers, would probably think the climate conducive to growing tomatoes is ' normal '..

23rd September 2009, 04:31 PM	#1
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	British/NASA study says ice melting faster! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090923/...s_sci_big_melt Yahoo news "NASA data: Greenland, Antarctic ice melt worsening" Quote: British scientists for the first time calculated changes in the height of the vulnerable but massive ice sheets and found them especially worse at their edges. That's where warmer water eats away from below. In some parts of Antarctica, ice sheets have been losing 30 feet a year in thickness since 2003, according to a paper published online Thursday in the journal Nature. Some of those areas are about a mile thick, so they've still got plenty of ice to burn through. But the drop in thickness is speeding up. In parts of Antarctica, the yearly rate of thinning from 2003 to 2007 is 50 percent higher than it was from 1995 to 2003. Quote: As scientists watch ice shelves retreat or just plain collapse, some thought the problem could slow or be temporary. The latest measurements eliminate "the most optimistic view," said Penn State University professor Richard Alley, who wasn't part of the study. The research found that 81 of the 111 Greenland glaciers surveyed are thinning at an accelerating, self-feeding pace. The key problem is not heat in the air, but the water near the ice sheets, Pritchard said. The water is not just warmer but its circulation is also adding to the melt.
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

23rd September 2009, 04:43 PM	#2
Skeptical Greg Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' Posts: 9,115	Quote: The research found that 81 of the 111Greenland glaciers surveyed are thinning at an accelerating, self-feeding pace. I wonder what keeps the other thirty from thinning as well ?
	__________________ A quantum of solace, is better than no solace at all.. " Don't come home a' drinkin' , with lovin' on your mind "... Loretta Lynn

23rd September 2009, 04:49 PM	#3
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pantopia Posts: 3,915	Interesting news. However, what do "they" want "us" to do about it? Can this phenomenon be reversed in our lifetimes; and if so, how? If this phenomenon can not be reversed in our lifetimes, then how can it be exploited for profit?
	__________________ "When I say, "Evidence, Please?" I am not asking for another statement of faith. I am asking for the evidence that supports that faith. Faith proves nothing." -- Fnord, Pointing Out the Obvious to the Oblivious Since 1957.

23rd September 2009, 05:01 PM	#5
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pantopia Posts: 3,915	Originally Posted by geni Chose a large area of land you don't really need. Paint it white. How large? As large as mainland China, perhaps?
	__________________ "When I say, "Evidence, Please?" I am not asking for another statement of faith. I am asking for the evidence that supports that faith. Faith proves nothing." -- Fnord, Pointing Out the Obvious to the Oblivious Since 1957.

23rd September 2009, 05:21 PM	#6
DogB Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,264	More equatorial would be better. Maybe Zaire and Sudan.
DogB Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,264	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell

23rd September 2009, 04:57 PM	#4
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 20,280	Originally Posted by Fnord Interesting news. However, what do "they" want "us" to do about it? Can this phenomenon be reversed in our lifetimes; and if so, how? Chose a large area of land you don't really need. Paint it white.

23rd September 2009, 05:30 PM	#7
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 20,280	Originally Posted by Fnord How large? As large as mainland China, perhaps? Depends on how much CO2 you want to chuck into the atmosphere. Start at the Canadian boarder (little point in painting snow white) and keep going until the temp starts to drop or you hit Cape Horn.

23rd September 2009, 05:36 PM	#8
SezMe Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 9,129	Originally Posted by Fnord Can this phenomenon be reversed in our lifetimes; and if so, how? If this phenomenon can not be reversed in our lifetimes, then how can it be exploited for profit? Why is our lifetime the criterion period? Why not the next 100 years? 500?

23rd September 2009, 05:56 PM	#9
Skeptical Greg Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' Posts: 9,115	If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest.. They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses ..
	__________________ A quantum of solace, is better than no solace at all.. " Don't come home a' drinkin' , with lovin' on your mind "... Loretta Lynn

23rd September 2009, 06:51 PM	#10
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,786	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest.. They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses .. Utter BS
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

23rd September 2009, 08:52 PM	#11
DogB Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,264	Might need to take a quick look around Ben. Seems you've lost your sense of humor somewhere.
DogB Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,264	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell

23rd September 2009, 11:53 PM	#12
rjh01 Fire Warden Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 9,811	Originally Posted by geni Chose a large area of land you don't really need. Paint it white. I did hear of an idea to make roads white for this reason. Not sure that it would work. They would not cool as much at night time.

24th September 2009, 12:40 AM	#13
DogB Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,264	Need these. Quote: She glanced back as they passed beyond the arch, said: "They hurry to finish the quota in the plastics shop before we flee. We need many dew collectors for the planting." "Flee?" "Until the butchers stop hunting us or are driven from our land..." "What're dew collectors?" he asked. The glance she turned on him was full of surprise. "Don't they teach you anything in the . . . wherever it is you come from?" "Not about dew collectors." "Hai!" she said, and there was a whole conversation in the one word. "Well, what are they?" "Each bush, each weed you see out there in the erg," she said, "how do you suppose it lives when we leave it? Each is planted most tenderly in its own little pit. The pits are filled with smooth ovals of chromoplastic. Light turns them white. You can see them glistening in the dawn if you look down from a high place. White reflects. But when Old Father Sun departs, the chromoplastic reverts to transparency in the dark. It cools with extreme rapidity. The surface condenses moisture out of the air. That moisture trickles down to keep our plants alive." "Dew collectors," he muttered, enchanted by the simple beauty of such a scheme. From Dune, by Frank Herbert. Published by Putnam in 1965
DogB Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,264	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell

24th September 2009, 12:48 AM	#14
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 2,029	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest.. They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses .. Originally Posted by BenBurch Utter BS I expect you're right. It won't need anywhere near 500 years. 50 will be plenty.
	__________________ "... you're a discredit to this Forum and deserve to be expunged - shamefully." - Southwind17 (AKA, Lord High Expunger)

24th September 2009, 05:54 AM	#15
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest.. They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses .. Do you live in Leamington ONT by any chance?
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

24th September 2009, 08:28 AM	#16
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If you wait 500 years, the people who think less ice is normal, will be frantic, because it is increasing and ruining their tomato harvest.. They will be screaming for more coal fired power plants to increase greenhouse gasses .. Depends on your definition of "normal" and the timescale of interest. For most of the last 200 million years there were no ice caps at all. The last two million have alternated between warmer and colder. During the last 130,000 (since the start of the Late Quaternary at the 5e O2 event) we have at least half a dozen major climate flips from colder than now to as warm as or warmer than now. The Holocene is in no sense an "average" climate period. No such thing seems to exist.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092

24th September 2009, 10:14 AM	#17
Skeptical Greg Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' Posts: 9,115	Quote: Depends on your definition of "normal" and the timescale of interest. ' Normal ', is what people have come to expect over any indeterminate period of time... A couple of generations of Icelandic tomato growers, would probably think the climate conducive to growing tomatoes is ' normal '..
	__________________ A quantum of solace, is better than no solace at all.. " Don't come home a' drinkin' , with lovin' on your mind "... Loretta Lynn