Elderly in Education

Salerio · 4th October 2009, 06:54 AM

Hi Guys

I'm finally completing my degree that I started 18 years ago, mainly based on maths and computing. This year I've done a course on artificial intelligence and enjoyed it so much I expressed an interest in maybe going on and doing a masters. My tutor is strongly suggesting I should use my talents and go onto something higher and do a doctorate.

While I'd kind of like to I'm almost 50 and I know I lack the mental acuity I had 30 years ago. It would mean taking 4 years out to do it I'd hope to get a research grant but that's a pittance really.

So, what do you guys think, is it too old to be going back into academia and would an early 50's YO with a PhD have a career path to use it? I was thinking maybe something to do with genetic algorithms, genetic programming and robot swarms. Of course I could go to plan A and do a masters as originally planned which I could do part time.

If anyone was thinking of sponsoring an old git, my paypal account is ... and I take brown envelopes with used bills. Just kidding

drkitten · 4th October 2009, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Salerio

Hi Guys

I'm finally completing my degree that I started 18 years ago, mainly based on maths and computing. This year I've done a course on artificial intelligence and enjoyed it so much I expressed an interest in maybe going on and doing a masters. My tutor is strongly suggesting I should use my talents and go onto something higher and do a doctorate.

While I'd kind of like to I'm almost 50 and I know I lack the mental acuity I had 30 years ago. It would mean taking 4 years out to do it I'd hope to get a research grant but that's a pittance really.

So, what do you guys think, is it too old to be going back into academia and would an early 50's YO with a PhD have a career path to use it?

Quick answer,... no, it's not too old.

Longer answer,... didn't your tutor already answer this question? Are you expecting a random collection of forumites to know your academic abilities better than the tutor who has been working with you directly for the past several years?

Salerio · 4th October 2009, 08:29 AM

Well not really. As I said I am completing my degree, my tutor has only seen me 4 times because I had a 12 year gap to get to my final year.

I was really wondering what the use would be of getting a PhD apart from bragging points. I have the ability to do it, the question should it be done? It'd be a bit galling to spend 4 years getting the PhD in evolutionary robotics then go back to doing IT support rather than (say) NASA or the nuclear industry because people prefer young graduates. Not to discount bragging points of course

always useful.

It's an open question, and a random collection of opinions might come up with something I'm not thinking about. Maybe people who have done it at an older than usual age possibly even researchers and people who work in robotics who would have a direct viewpoint.

drkitten · 4th October 2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Salerio

I was really wondering what the use would be of getting a PhD apart from bragging points.

Never underestimate bragging points.

Also, never underestimate the health value of education. One of the best ways to stave off senility (as well as physical decline) is to have an active and vibrant mental life. I've known doctors to literally prescribe crossword puzzles to their patients just so they have something to think about. Frankly, if I'm going to need to do intellectual make-work, I might as well have it be useful and interesting instead of trying to remember a nine-letter word for "king" that begins with a 'p.'

But at a more serious level and from a purely career perspective, there is a Ph.D. glut right now. There are simply too many Ph.D.'s and too few jobs, and that's a problem that hits everyone from age 25 to age 75. I tell my 21 year olds the same thing; if you're looking for a Ph.D. just because of the job prospects, you shouldn't do it. It's not even a question of age; it's just a question of too many squirrels and too few nuts.

What would you want to do with your Ph.D. once you have it? If you want a faculty position, you will probably have no problem finding a part-time or post-retirement adjunct position. You will probably not be able to find a full-time tenure track position without a lot of luck. If you want a job in industry, you are obviously in a better position to judge your specific industry than I am. I will say this; AI in particular is expected to be a growth subfield over the next ten years or so. Between the Google vacuum cleaner (Google has been sucking up every AI/language Ph.D. produced since about 2001) and the various data mining groups both in industry and in government (the NSA needs to be able to predict which phones to illegally tap), the chances are very good that will be able to find something. Especially if you can turn your professional experience into a positive; you know something about how "the real world" works, unlike those wet-behind-the-ears shavetails.

But in general, I find that people who try to get a Ph.D. for professional development reasons are not very successful. The people who succeed in Ph.D. programs do so because they're excited about what they're doing and want to do it -- and are willing to let the job prospects go hang. If they wanted money and professional development, they'd have gone for an MBA instead.

jasonpatterson · 4th October 2009, 10:54 AM

If you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your PhD at 50 unless you are hoping to work for quite some time. You're going to lose 4 years of professional income.

I have to think that there would be some bias against hiring an older graduate as well, as you mention, and I would guess that adding a PhD isn't going to help you much with that problem. I don't doubt that you could find a job though. This might be especially if your ability to move to a new job is limited (because of family, etc.)

On the plus side of the PhD, you might be able to get involved in good research programs that would improve your connections in the robotics market (terribly important when finding a job.)

drkitten · 4th October 2009, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

If you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your PhD at 50 unless you are hoping to work for quite some time. You're going to lose 4 years of professional income.

Er, if you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your Ph.D. at all. Seriously.

The income stats for masters' degrees show a slightly lower average income than for a Ph.D., but nowhere near enough to offset the year loss in professional income and seniority. According to the census numbers, the average income for a master's degree in the USA is about $75000 vs. $80000 with a Ph.D. Of course, $75000 plus three years of 2% raises gives you $81000 and change.... so you actually make more taking an MS and getting your raises as they come.

The reason for this? Most faculty positions are dreadfully underpaid, because successful faculty typically get paid in quality-of-life instead. I could more or less double my salary with a single phone call, but I'd have to surrender the freedom of being able to work more or less to my own schedule, to work on my own research projects, and to have a guarantee of tenured lifetime employment.

If you want to work in industry, you can usually do the same type of work with an MS as with a Ph.D. If you want to be faculty, you usually can't do that kind of work anyway.

quixotecoyote · 4th October 2009, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

It's not even a question of age; it's just a question of too many squirrels and too few nuts.

I'm working on finishing my MA as we speak. Don't tell ME there's a shortage of nuts at the PhD level.

MattC · 5th October 2009, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Er, if you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your Ph.D. at all. Seriously.

Factor in the additional costs incurred to acquire a Ph.D. and it's even less appealing from a financial perspective. I happen to judge my worth as a human being by the amount of letters and titles I acquire, so I'm going for one anyway.

Originally Posted by drkitten

The income stats for masters' degrees show a slightly lower average income than for a Ph.D., but nowhere near enough to offset the year loss in professional income and seniority. According to the census numbers, the average income for a master's degree in the USA is about $75000 vs. $80000 with a Ph.D. Of course, $75000 plus three years of 2% raises gives you $81000 and change.... so you actually make more taking an MS and getting your raises as they come.

I don't know if this is a completely valid comparison, though it seems to have some initial merit. Simplicity is probably its greatest value anyway.

Quote:

The reason for this? Most faculty positions are dreadfully underpaid, because successful faculty typically get paid in quality-of-life instead. I could more or less double my salary with a single phone call, but I'd have to surrender the freedom of being able to work more or less to my own schedule, to work on my own research projects, and to have a guarantee of tenured lifetime employment.

I will admit that the hope I'll get to that point is the dream keeping me going at the moment. Teaching opinionated undergrads really tends to make you hate the "chance to see young minds develop" speech, but it seems like dealing with opinionated undergrads from a comfortable office chair rather than a lectern would be much easier.

~ Matt

(EDIT: Bear in mind that most of these objections are for the Ph.D. rather than the master's. If you want a master's degree and can afford the costs both in dollars and time to get one, by all means go for it.)

LightinDarkness · 9th October 2009, 01:06 AM

Four years for a PhD? God, that would be lovely. Im in year 2 of mine and it looks like it will take me at LEAST 6 years (assuming no major problems with the dissertation). And that is with a master's degree in the same field - its required for my particular area before pursuing a doctorate.

drkitten · 9th October 2009, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness

Four years for a PhD? God, that would be lovely. Im in year 2 of mine and it looks like it will take me at LEAST 6 years (assuming no major problems with the dissertation). And that is with a master's degree in the same field - its required for my particular area before pursuing a doctorate.

Different systems, probably different countries. I'm willing to place a small wager that the opening poster is from the UK or a strongly-UK influenced educational system. In the UK, a Ph.D. is usually a purely research degree with very little coursework requirements, no breadth requirements, and little to no teaching practice.

I've heard of UK Ph.D.'s in German literature who can't speak German. Their specialization, you see, was in umpteenth century bla-bla-bla, which is the equivalent of Middle English, and they not only never learned how modern verbs are conjugated, but they never even learned how to PRONOUNCE Middle German. So if you dropped them in modern Osnabrueck and they were thirsty, the best they could do is to hand the barman a note saying the equivalent of "Ho, varlet, a flagon of thy finest sack, grammercy."

This is why you can get a UK Ph.D. in 3-4 years, while it can take 6-infinity to get one in the States. This is also why UK Ph.D.'s have such difficulty getting faculty positions in the States. They can't teach for toffee and can't even do useful research work outside of their tiny little intellectual silos.

4th October 2009, 06:54 AM	#1
Salerio Scholar Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 54	Elderly in Education Hi Guys I'm finally completing my degree that I started 18 years ago, mainly based on maths and computing. This year I've done a course on artificial intelligence and enjoyed it so much I expressed an interest in maybe going on and doing a masters. My tutor is strongly suggesting I should use my talents and go onto something higher and do a doctorate. While I'd kind of like to I'm almost 50 and I know I lack the mental acuity I had 30 years ago. It would mean taking 4 years out to do it I'd hope to get a research grant but that's a pittance really. So, what do you guys think, is it too old to be going back into academia and would an early 50's YO with a PhD have a career path to use it? I was thinking maybe something to do with genetic algorithms, genetic programming and robot swarms. Of course I could go to plan A and do a masters as originally planned which I could do part time. If anyone was thinking of sponsoring an old git, my paypal account is ... and I take brown envelopes with used bills. Just kidding
Salerio Scholar Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 54

4th October 2009, 08:29 AM	#3
Salerio Scholar Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 54	Well not really. As I said I am completing my degree, my tutor has only seen me 4 times because I had a 12 year gap to get to my final year. I was really wondering what the use would be of getting a PhD apart from bragging points. I have the ability to do it, the question should it be done? It'd be a bit galling to spend 4 years getting the PhD in evolutionary robotics then go back to doing IT support rather than (say) NASA or the nuclear industry because people prefer young graduates. Not to discount bragging points of course always useful. It's an open question, and a random collection of opinions might come up with something I'm not thinking about. Maybe people who have done it at an older than usual age possibly even researchers and people who work in robotics who would have a direct viewpoint.
Salerio Scholar Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 54	Last edited by Salerio; 4th October 2009 at 08:37 AM.

4th October 2009, 10:54 AM	#5
jasonpatterson Philanthropic Misanthrope Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Macedonia, OH Posts: 907	If you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your PhD at 50 unless you are hoping to work for quite some time. You're going to lose 4 years of professional income. I have to think that there would be some bias against hiring an older graduate as well, as you mention, and I would guess that adding a PhD isn't going to help you much with that problem. I don't doubt that you could find a job though. This might be especially if your ability to move to a new job is limited (because of family, etc.) On the plus side of the PhD, you might be able to get involved in good research programs that would improve your connections in the robotics market (terribly important when finding a job.)
	__________________ Sandra's seen a leprechaun, Eddie touched a troll, Laurie danced with witches once, Charlie found some goblins' gold. Donald heard a mermaid sing, Susie spied an elf, But all the magic I have known I've had to make myself. - Shel Silverstein

4th October 2009, 07:02 PM	#7
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,300	Originally Posted by drkitten It's not even a question of age; it's just a question of too many squirrels and too few nuts. I'm working on finishing my MA as we speak. Don't tell ME there's a shortage of nuts at the PhD level.
	__________________ Ladewig: I'll start worrying about the media's liberal bias the day I hear of labor negotiations described as management demands and union concessions. Thank you for the avatar xkcd.

5th October 2009, 02:45 PM	#8
MattC ducky's chatroom assassin Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Freedonia Posts: 388	Originally Posted by drkitten Er, if you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your Ph.D. at all. Seriously. Factor in the additional costs incurred to acquire a Ph.D. and it's even less appealing from a financial perspective. I happen to judge my worth as a human being by the amount of letters and titles I acquire, so I'm going for one anyway. Originally Posted by drkitten The income stats for masters' degrees show a slightly lower average income than for a Ph.D., but nowhere near enough to offset the year loss in professional income and seniority. According to the census numbers, the average income for a master's degree in the USA is about $75000 vs. $80000 with a Ph.D. Of course, $75000 plus three years of 2% raises gives you $81000 and change.... so you actually make more taking an MS and getting your raises as they come. I don't know if this is a completely valid comparison, though it seems to have some initial merit. Simplicity is probably its greatest value anyway. Quote: The reason for this? Most faculty positions are dreadfully underpaid, because successful faculty typically get paid in quality-of-life instead. I could more or less double my salary with a single phone call, but I'd have to surrender the freedom of being able to work more or less to my own schedule, to work on my own research projects, and to have a guarantee of tenured lifetime employment. I will admit that the hope I'll get to that point is the dream keeping me going at the moment. Teaching opinionated undergrads really tends to make you hate the "chance to see young minds develop" speech, but it seems like dealing with opinionated undergrads from a comfortable office chair rather than a lectern would be much easier. ~ Matt (EDIT: Bear in mind that most of these objections are for the Ph.D. rather than the master's. If you want a master's degree and can afford the costs both in dollars and time to get one, by all means go for it.)
	__________________ "Si, je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho." [09:56] <Hawk_one> In my much more awesome opinion, I should be ruling the world! "But don't whine if you find that you can't afford the multithousand dollar software package or the multimillion dollar equipment, and if you find that CERN won't loan you the LHC for a weekend." ~ drkitten Last edited by MattC; 5th October 2009 at 02:48 PM.

4th October 2009, 08:11 AM	#2
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by Salerio Hi Guys I'm finally completing my degree that I started 18 years ago, mainly based on maths and computing. This year I've done a course on artificial intelligence and enjoyed it so much I expressed an interest in maybe going on and doing a masters. My tutor is strongly suggesting I should use my talents and go onto something higher and do a doctorate. While I'd kind of like to I'm almost 50 and I know I lack the mental acuity I had 30 years ago. It would mean taking 4 years out to do it I'd hope to get a research grant but that's a pittance really. So, what do you guys think, is it too old to be going back into academia and would an early 50's YO with a PhD have a career path to use it? Quick answer,... no, it's not too old. Longer answer,... didn't your tutor already answer this question? Are you expecting a random collection of forumites to know your academic abilities better than the tutor who has been working with you directly for the past several years?

4th October 2009, 09:03 AM	#4
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by Salerio I was really wondering what the use would be of getting a PhD apart from bragging points. Never underestimate bragging points. Also, never underestimate the health value of education. One of the best ways to stave off senility (as well as physical decline) is to have an active and vibrant mental life. I've known doctors to literally prescribe crossword puzzles to their patients just so they have something to think about. Frankly, if I'm going to need to do intellectual make-work, I might as well have it be useful and interesting instead of trying to remember a nine-letter word for "king" that begins with a 'p.' But at a more serious level and from a purely career perspective, there is a Ph.D. glut right now. There are simply too many Ph.D.'s and too few jobs, and that's a problem that hits everyone from age 25 to age 75. I tell my 21 year olds the same thing; if you're looking for a Ph.D. just because of the job prospects, you shouldn't do it. It's not even a question of age; it's just a question of too many squirrels and too few nuts. What would you want to do with your Ph.D. once you have it? If you want a faculty position, you will probably have no problem finding a part-time or post-retirement adjunct position. You will probably not be able to find a full-time tenure track position without a lot of luck. If you want a job in industry, you are obviously in a better position to judge your specific industry than I am. I will say this; AI in particular is expected to be a growth subfield over the next ten years or so. Between the Google vacuum cleaner (Google has been sucking up every AI/language Ph.D. produced since about 2001) and the various data mining groups both in industry and in government (the NSA needs to be able to predict which phones to illegally tap), the chances are very good that will be able to find something. Especially if you can turn your professional experience into a positive; you know something about how "the real world" works, unlike those wet-behind-the-ears shavetails. But in general, I find that people who try to get a Ph.D. for professional development reasons are not very successful. The people who succeed in Ph.D. programs do so because they're excited about what they're doing and want to do it -- and are willing to let the job prospects go hang. If they wanted money and professional development, they'd have gone for an MBA instead.

4th October 2009, 06:39 PM	#6
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by jasonpatterson If you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your PhD at 50 unless you are hoping to work for quite some time. You're going to lose 4 years of professional income. Er, if you look at it from a money perspective, it probably won't pay to get your Ph.D. at all. Seriously. The income stats for masters' degrees show a slightly lower average income than for a Ph.D., but nowhere near enough to offset the year loss in professional income and seniority. According to the census numbers, the average income for a master's degree in the USA is about $75000 vs. $80000 with a Ph.D. Of course, $75000 plus three years of 2% raises gives you $81000 and change.... so you actually make more taking an MS and getting your raises as they come. The reason for this? Most faculty positions are dreadfully underpaid, because successful faculty typically get paid in quality-of-life instead. I could more or less double my salary with a single phone call, but I'd have to surrender the freedom of being able to work more or less to my own schedule, to work on my own research projects, and to have a guarantee of tenured lifetime employment. If you want to work in industry, you can usually do the same type of work with an MS as with a Ph.D. If you want to be faculty, you usually can't do that kind of work anyway.

9th October 2009, 01:06 AM	#9
LightinDarkness Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,536	Four years for a PhD? God, that would be lovely. Im in year 2 of mine and it looks like it will take me at LEAST 6 years (assuming no major problems with the dissertation). And that is with a master's degree in the same field - its required for my particular area before pursuing a doctorate.

9th October 2009, 08:58 AM	#10
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by LightinDarkness Four years for a PhD? God, that would be lovely. Im in year 2 of mine and it looks like it will take me at LEAST 6 years (assuming no major problems with the dissertation). And that is with a master's degree in the same field - its required for my particular area before pursuing a doctorate. Different systems, probably different countries. I'm willing to place a small wager that the opening poster is from the UK or a strongly-UK influenced educational system. In the UK, a Ph.D. is usually a purely research degree with very little coursework requirements, no breadth requirements, and little to no teaching practice. I've heard of UK Ph.D.'s in German literature who can't speak German. Their specialization, you see, was in umpteenth century bla-bla-bla, which is the equivalent of Middle English, and they not only never learned how modern verbs are conjugated, but they never even learned how to PRONOUNCE Middle German. So if you dropped them in modern Osnabrueck and they were thirsty, the best they could do is to hand the barman a note saying the equivalent of "Ho, varlet, a flagon of thy finest sack, grammercy." This is why you can get a UK Ph.D. in 3-4 years, while it can take 6-infinity to get one in the States. This is also why UK Ph.D.'s have such difficulty getting faculty positions in the States. They can't teach for toffee and can't even do useful research work outside of their tiny little intellectual silos.