Egyptians drowning in garbage pay the price for religious stupidity

Puppycow · 5th October 2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

When the government killed all the pigs in Egypt this spring — in what public health experts said was a misguided attempt to combat swine flu — it was warned the city would be overwhelmed with trash.

The pigs used to eat tons of organic waste. Now the pigs are gone and the rotting food piles up on the streets of middle-class neighborhoods like Heliopolis and in the poor streets of communities like Imbaba.

Ramadan Hediya, 35, who makes deliveries for a supermarket, lives in Madinat el Salam, a low-income community on the outskirts of Cairo.

“The whole area is trash,” Mr. Hediya said. “All the pathways are full of trash. When you open up your window to breathe, you find garbage heaps on the ground.”

What started out as an impulsive response to the swine flu threat has turned into a social, environmental and political problem for the Arab world’s most populous nation.

It has exposed the failings of a government where the power is concentrated at the top, where decisions are often carried out with little consideration for their consequences and where follow-up is often nonexistent, according to social commentators and government officials.

The pictures in the article really tell the story.

Hitchens' commentary

Quote:

According to all recent reports, the ancient city of Cairo now presents to the world the image of a growing pile of festering trash. Nothing new, you say. The streets have never been exactly uncluttered, and the levels of noise and traffic and pollution are an object of wonderment. When I first visited the place, I was amazed to find people living with great dignity and aplomb in what were called "the cities of the dead"—among the graves and stones of Cairo's massive cemeteries. I was also struck by the number and variety of animals living cheek by jowl, as it were, amid the buses and taxis, with the human population. Looking down from the high window of Shepheard's Hotel, I saw that some enterprising person in a neighboring low-rise had managed to get a small flock of goats onto his roof. Other flocks and herds could be met with on the thoroughfares. And a great deal of excellent work was being unobtrusively done by that most useful of animals, the pig. As mass consumers of organic waste, pigs are hard to beat. They would chomp their way through great heaps of it, very often under the unspoken supervision of Cairo's quite large Christian minority.

I have to use the past tense about these noble beasts because, in the spring of this very year, they were all slaughtered on the orders of the Egyptian government. And it is this crazy action that has shifted the Cairo trash scene from the awful to the near-calamitous. It was alleged by the regime of President Hosni Mubarak, on the basis of no evidence whatever, that the swine themselves were the carriers of the so-called "swine flu." (Several friends and relatives of mine have already caught and recovered from this mild infection; everybody knows that actual encounters with pigs have absolutely nothing to do with it.) As a consequence of the pig massacre, the streets of Cairo have become almost unlivable, and the Christian garbage collectors, locally called the zabaleen, have been robbed of their livelihood. "They killed the pigs, let them clean the city," as one former garbage collector and pig man, Moussa Rateb, was quoted as saying of the Egyptian authorities.

The high price of stupidity.

pakeha · 5th October 2009, 01:46 AM

21st century, anyone?

Epok · 5th October 2009, 01:46 AM

Wow, now its not the people who are at fault but the government, right? I agree it is stupidity but I still feel some sympathy for them. To me, it seems like the masses have to suffer for the stupidity of a few.

Marduk · 5th October 2009, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Epok

Wow, now its not the people who are at fault but the government, right? I agree it is stupidity but I still feel some sympathy for them. To me, it seems like the masses have to suffer for the stupidity of a few.

its almost as if the few idiots at the top are being supported by the masses below, now if only there was some way of describing that which is relevant to Egypt

rjh01 · 5th October 2009, 02:33 AM

They need to introduce decent basic utility services, like garbage collection fast. I wonder what happened to the pig poo? Collected by the residents for fertilizer?

Hux · 5th October 2009, 06:39 AM

I have to say I am surprised that a such a population of pigs as could make a difference to Cario's health, would even be tolerated in such an Islamic climate?

I am prepared to believe that, in many places of Cairo, a Pig would make a good air freshener.

"Ladies and gentlemen, we are now approaching Cairo Airport. You might want to set your watches to local time. 600 years ago?"

Tricky · 5th October 2009, 06:41 AM

They can have all the feral pigs from Texas that they want. The damn things are destroying the environment here.

Cainkane1 · 5th October 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Tricky

They can have all the feral pigs from Texas that they want. The damn things are destroying the environment here.

Why don't you guys shoot them?

Hux · 5th October 2009, 06:57 AM

Because Billy Bob is more interested in his ammo than the environment.

pakeha · 5th October 2009, 07:00 AM

I thought the Egyptian authorities shot the street swine becouse of their understanding of swine flu, rather than for any given religious beliefs.

Hux · 5th October 2009, 07:04 AM

Their religious beliefs and their capacity to 'understand ' anything are closely related.

Beerina · 5th October 2009, 10:47 AM

Is anyone tallying the extra deaths to offset against the benefit of government regulation?

Darth Rotor · 5th October 2009, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

NY Times Article

The pictures in the article really tell the story.

Hitchens' commentary

The high price of stupidity.

At least the streets are not filled with pig manure, which I suggest might be the byproduct of pigs eating all that trash in the streets ...

Darth Rotor · 5th October 2009, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Why don't you guys shoot them?

We do. I expect to bag one this hunting season. Maybe 2. Decent eating.

Elizabeth I · 5th October 2009, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Why don't you guys shoot them?

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

We do. I expect to bag one this hunting season. Maybe 2. Decent eating.

Feral pork chops, mmmm!

Akhenaten · 5th October 2009, 05:09 PM

I told them this would happen. The Aten is out for vengeance. Send me huge offerings and I'll see what I can do.

$AU only, please.

Address:

Re-Horakty Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten
Amarna (in the wadi, just east of town - you can't miss it)
Lower Egypt
Ancient World 36580

Gord_in_Toronto · 5th October 2009, 07:05 PM

Anyone want to suggest to the CIA (or whoever) that they get the next influenza called the Muslim flu? Then they could off themselves.

arthwollipot · 5th October 2009, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hux

Their religious beliefs and their capacity to 'understand ' anything are closely related.

Correlation is not causation. I see no religious stupidity here. Biological stupidity, yes. Stupidity about disease control. Lack of understanding about the epidemiology of the H1N1 flu virus. But to call it specifically religious stupidity is to misrepresent it.

I think it's just a manifestation of the "muslims hate pigs" stereotype. Everyone knows that muslims hate pigs, and everyone knows that Egypt is a muslim country, so obviously they killed the pigs because they're muslims and they hate pigs.

There's absolutely no connection that I can see between this situation and religion.

quadraginta · 5th October 2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Correlation is not causation. I see no religious stupidity here. Biological stupidity, yes. Stupidity about disease control. Lack of understanding about the epidemiology of the H1N1 flu virus. But to call it specifically religious stupidity is to misrepresent it.

I think it's just a manifestation of the "muslims hate pigs" stereotype. Everyone knows that muslims hate pigs, and everyone knows that Egypt is a muslim country, so obviously they killed the pigs because they're muslims and they hate pigs.

There's absolutely no connection that I can see between this situation and religion.

Silly boy.

You're trying to apply reason and rationality.This isn't the appropriate venue. You need some other forum, like a skep ... tics ...

...

...

Never mind.

Scott Haley · 5th October 2009, 08:28 PM

Here's how I heard this story. The people who kept pigs in Cairo are poor Christian people who live in slums. For years, developers have wanted to tear down their homes and use the land for something profitable. The Egyptian Christians believe that the swine flu was just an excuse to kill their livestock as a way of pressuring them into moving away. If they're right, it's an economic class issue, not a religious one.

JJM 777 · 6th October 2009, 12:44 AM

Also in Finnish national news this was reported as an economic class struggle to modernize Cairo a bit, hinting that a global disease with the word "pig" in its name was only a lucky excuse, which was immediately taken advantage of. Quite a good one, if even JREF forumers can swallow half a thread of discussion without seeing the actual motive of the action, how much less do the local Egyptian population understand the actual motive? A brilliant move.

A bit like 911, a lucky excuse for politically unpopular operations, which suddenly got an excuse and the momentum was taken advantage of.

Darat · 6th October 2009, 01:16 AM

How many pigs did they slaughter? I can only find a reference to 300,000 and that does not seem to a be huge number when it comes to the disposal of the rubbish (that would have been suitable to be fed to pigs) of a city with a population of over 8 million people.

pakeha · 6th October 2009, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

... Quite a good one, if even JREF forumers can swallow half a thread of discussion without seeing the actual motive of the action, how much less do the local Egyptian population understand the actual motive? A brilliant move...

Not all, JJM, not all.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...6&postcount=10

ponderingturtle · 6th October 2009, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Correlation is not causation. I see no religious stupidity here. Biological stupidity, yes. Stupidity about disease control. Lack of understanding about the epidemiology of the H1N1 flu virus. But to call it specifically religious stupidity is to misrepresent it.

I think it's just a manifestation of the "muslims hate pigs" stereotype. Everyone knows that muslims hate pigs, and everyone knows that Egypt is a muslim country, so obviously they killed the pigs because they're muslims and they hate pigs.

There's absolutely no connection that I can see between this situation and religion.

Hey did you know what Afganistan did with that countries Pig?

Link

They quarentined the only pig in the country.

I think that religion does play a role in it, with the muslim majority sticking it to the christian minority.

5th October 2009, 01:19 AM	#1
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 6,323	Egyptians drowning in garbage pay the price for religious stupidity NY Times Article Quote: When the government killed all the pigs in Egypt this spring — in what public health experts said was a misguided attempt to combat swine flu — it was warned the city would be overwhelmed with trash. The pigs used to eat tons of organic waste. Now the pigs are gone and the rotting food piles up on the streets of middle-class neighborhoods like Heliopolis and in the poor streets of communities like Imbaba. Ramadan Hediya, 35, who makes deliveries for a supermarket, lives in Madinat el Salam, a low-income community on the outskirts of Cairo. “The whole area is trash,” Mr. Hediya said. “All the pathways are full of trash. When you open up your window to breathe, you find garbage heaps on the ground.” What started out as an impulsive response to the swine flu threat has turned into a social, environmental and political problem for the Arab world’s most populous nation. It has exposed the failings of a government where the power is concentrated at the top, where decisions are often carried out with little consideration for their consequences and where follow-up is often nonexistent, according to social commentators and government officials. The pictures in the article really tell the story. Hitchens' commentary Quote: According to all recent reports, the ancient city of Cairo now presents to the world the image of a growing pile of festering trash. Nothing new, you say. The streets have never been exactly uncluttered, and the levels of noise and traffic and pollution are an object of wonderment. When I first visited the place, I was amazed to find people living with great dignity and aplomb in what were called "the cities of the dead"—among the graves and stones of Cairo's massive cemeteries. I was also struck by the number and variety of animals living cheek by jowl, as it were, amid the buses and taxis, with the human population. Looking down from the high window of Shepheard's Hotel, I saw that some enterprising person in a neighboring low-rise had managed to get a small flock of goats onto his roof. Other flocks and herds could be met with on the thoroughfares. And a great deal of excellent work was being unobtrusively done by that most useful of animals, the pig. As mass consumers of organic waste, pigs are hard to beat. They would chomp their way through great heaps of it, very often under the unspoken supervision of Cairo's quite large Christian minority. I have to use the past tense about these noble beasts because, in the spring of this very year, they were all slaughtered on the orders of the Egyptian government. And it is this crazy action that has shifted the Cairo trash scene from the awful to the near-calamitous. It was alleged by the regime of President Hosni Mubarak, on the basis of no evidence whatever, that the swine themselves were the carriers of the so-called "swine flu." (Several friends and relatives of mine have already caught and recovered from this mild infection; everybody knows that actual encounters with pigs have absolutely nothing to do with it.) As a consequence of the pig massacre, the streets of Cairo have become almost unlivable, and the Christian garbage collectors, locally called the zabaleen, have been robbed of their livelihood. "They killed the pigs, let them clean the city," as one former garbage collector and pig man, Moussa Rateb, was quoted as saying of the Egyptian authorities. The high price of stupidity.
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous Religions are God's way of telling us that He doesn't exist. -Pat Condell

5th October 2009, 01:46 AM	#2
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	21st century, anyone?
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099

5th October 2009, 01:52 AM	#4
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by Epok Wow, now its not the people who are at fault but the government, right? I agree it is stupidity but I still feel some sympathy for them. To me, it seems like the masses have to suffer for the stupidity of a few. its almost as if the few idiots at the top are being supported by the masses below, now if only there was some way of describing that which is relevant to Egypt
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

5th October 2009, 06:39 AM	#6
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	I have to say I am surprised that a such a population of pigs as could make a difference to Cario's health, would even be tolerated in such an Islamic climate? I am prepared to believe that, in many places of Cairo, a Pig would make a good air freshener. "Ladies and gentlemen, we are now approaching Cairo Airport. You might want to set your watches to local time. 600 years ago?"
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

5th October 2009, 06:46 AM	#8
Cainkane1 Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 2,566	Originally Posted by Tricky They can have all the feral pigs from Texas that they want. The damn things are destroying the environment here. Why don't you guys shoot them?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

5th October 2009, 01:46 AM	#3
Epok Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Birmingham, Al Posts: 184	Wow, now its not the people who are at fault but the government, right? I agree it is stupidity but I still feel some sympathy for them. To me, it seems like the masses have to suffer for the stupidity of a few.

5th October 2009, 02:33 AM	#5
rjh01 Fire Warden Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 9,810	They need to introduce decent basic utility services, like garbage collection fast. I wonder what happened to the pig poo? Collected by the residents for fertilizer?

5th October 2009, 06:41 AM	#7
Tricky Radical centrist Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 27,290	They can have all the feral pigs from Texas that they want. The damn things are destroying the environment here.

5th October 2009, 06:57 AM	#9
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Because Billy Bob is more interested in his ammo than the environment.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

5th October 2009, 07:00 AM	#10
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	I thought the Egyptian authorities shot the street swine becouse of their understanding of swine flu, rather than for any given religious beliefs.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099

5th October 2009, 07:04 AM	#11
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Their religious beliefs and their capacity to 'understand ' anything are closely related.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

5th October 2009, 10:47 AM	#12
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 14,373	Is anyone tallying the extra deaths to offset against the benefit of government regulation?
	__________________ Reid Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman, in *A Day Like Any Other* The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

5th October 2009, 11:42 AM	#13
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by Puppycow NY Times Article The pictures in the article really tell the story. Hitchens' commentary The high price of stupidity. At least the streets are not filled with pig manure, which I suggest might be the byproduct of pigs eating all that trash in the streets ...
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

5th October 2009, 11:43 AM	#14
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Why don't you guys shoot them? We do. I expect to bag one this hunting season. Maybe 2. Decent eating.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

5th October 2009, 12:19 PM	#15
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 5,125	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Why don't you guys shoot them? Originally Posted by Darth Rotor We do. I expect to bag one this hunting season. Maybe 2. Decent eating. Feral pork chops, mmmm!
	__________________ • There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill • Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. • Eats, Shoots and Leaves: buy it, read it, practice it

5th October 2009, 05:09 PM	#16
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford Australia Posts: 6,284	I told them this would happen. The Aten is out for vengeance. Send me huge offerings and I'll see what I can do. $AU only, please. Address: Re-Horakty Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten Amarna (in the wadi, just east of town - you can't miss it) Lower Egypt Ancient World 36580
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon Last edited by Akhenaten; 5th October 2009 at 05:11 PM.

5th October 2009, 07:05 PM	#17
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,168	Anyone want to suggest to the CIA (or whoever) that they get the next influenza called the Muslim flu? Then they could off themselves.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick Now completely free.

5th October 2009, 07:12 PM	#18
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	Originally Posted by Hux Their religious beliefs and their capacity to 'understand ' anything are closely related. Correlation is not causation. I see no religious stupidity here. Biological stupidity, yes. Stupidity about disease control. Lack of understanding about the epidemiology of the H1N1 flu virus. But to call it specifically religious stupidity is to misrepresent it. I think it's just a manifestation of the "muslims hate pigs" stereotype. Everyone knows that muslims hate pigs, and everyone knows that Egypt is a muslim country, so obviously they killed the pigs because they're muslims and they hate pigs. There's absolutely no connection that I can see between this situation and religion.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

5th October 2009, 07:28 PM	#19
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 2,029	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Correlation is not causation. I see no religious stupidity here. Biological stupidity, yes. Stupidity about disease control. Lack of understanding about the epidemiology of the H1N1 flu virus. But to call it specifically religious stupidity is to misrepresent it. I think it's just a manifestation of the "muslims hate pigs" stereotype. Everyone knows that muslims hate pigs, and everyone knows that Egypt is a muslim country, so obviously they killed the pigs because they're muslims and they hate pigs. There's absolutely no connection that I can see between this situation and religion. Silly boy. You're trying to apply reason and rationality.This isn't the appropriate venue. You need some other forum, like a skep ... tics ... ... ... Never mind.
	__________________ "... you're a discredit to this Forum and deserve to be expunged - shamefully." - Southwind17 (AKA, Lord High Expunger)

5th October 2009, 08:28 PM	#20
Scott Haley Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 284	I don't think it's religious Here's how I heard this story. The people who kept pigs in Cairo are poor Christian people who live in slums. For years, developers have wanted to tear down their homes and use the land for something profitable. The Egyptian Christians believe that the swine flu was just an excuse to kill their livestock as a way of pressuring them into moving away. If they're right, it's an economic class issue, not a religious one.

6th October 2009, 12:44 AM	#21
JJM 777 Muse Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 779	Also in Finnish national news this was reported as an economic class struggle to modernize Cairo a bit, hinting that a global disease with the word "pig" in its name was only a lucky excuse, which was immediately taken advantage of. Quite a good one, if even JREF forumers can swallow half a thread of discussion without seeing the actual motive of the action, how much less do the local Egyptian population understand the actual motive? A brilliant move. A bit like 911, a lucky excuse for politically unpopular operations, which suddenly got an excuse and the momentum was taken advantage of.
	Last edited by JJM 777; 6th October 2009 at 12:48 AM.

6th October 2009, 01:16 AM	#22
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,698	How many pigs did they slaughter? I can only find a reference to 300,000 and that does not seem to a be huge number when it comes to the disposal of the rubbish (that would have been suitable to be fed to pigs) of a city with a population of over 8 million people.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

6th October 2009, 04:03 AM	#23
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	Originally Posted by JJM 777 ... Quite a good one, if even JREF forumers can swallow half a thread of discussion without seeing the actual motive of the action, how much less do the local Egyptian population understand the actual motive? A brilliant move... Not all, JJM, not all. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...6&postcount=10
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099

6th October 2009, 06:01 AM	#24
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,770	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Correlation is not causation. I see no religious stupidity here. Biological stupidity, yes. Stupidity about disease control. Lack of understanding about the epidemiology of the H1N1 flu virus. But to call it specifically religious stupidity is to misrepresent it. I think it's just a manifestation of the "muslims hate pigs" stereotype. Everyone knows that muslims hate pigs, and everyone knows that Egypt is a muslim country, so obviously they killed the pigs because they're muslims and they hate pigs. There's absolutely no connection that I can see between this situation and religion. Hey did you know what Afganistan did with that countries Pig? Link They quarentined the only pig in the country. I think that religion does play a role in it, with the muslim majority sticking it to the christian minority.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin