If 'Islam' is such a great religion...Why don't they go 'door to door' like the rest.

De_Bunk · 10th October 2009, 01:05 PM

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc...

Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door...

Nada...Zip...Zero...

Why?

Why should i be denied the virgins....?

Allah Akbar...

Thanks...

DB

Marduk · 10th October 2009, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...

hamelekim · 10th October 2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc...

Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door...

Nada...Zip...Zero...

Why?

Why should i be denied the virgins....?

Allah Akbar...

Thanks...

DB

They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword.

Oliver · 10th October 2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc...

Good question. Maybe Jehovas Witnesses are the real terrorists after all.

Sledge · 10th October 2009, 01:36 PM

Does any religion other than some sects of Christianity go door-to-door?

Marduk · 10th October 2009, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Does any religion other than some sects of Christianity go door-to-door?

the Amish ?

mind you I think thats just to sell quilts

De_Bunk · 10th October 2009, 01:43 PM

...and the Mormons....with their smart shirts and ties...and those little shoulder bags...They don't come back no more to visit me...

And the local Jehovies who called the Police...(100% true)...they don't come back no more...

DB

TShaitanaku · 10th October 2009, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc...

Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door...

Nada...Zip...Zero...

Why?

Why should i be denied the virgins....?

Allah Akbar...

Thanks...

DB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...onary_Activity

normdoering · 10th October 2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword.

And then we have to answer back with a gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEwkeH2XiTQ

De_Bunk · 10th October 2009, 03:09 PM

Normdoering...

Sword...Leaflet...Shiny teeth...Shoulder bag...all the same...

DB

gtc · 10th October 2009, 08:18 PM

I've seen Muslims ~~prosetlyising~~ setting up a street stall to try to convert people in London and twice in the last month everyone in my office has received pamphlets from Egypt trying to convert us to Islam (apparently they got our names and address off the internet).

Excerpts:

Quote:

Everything has submitted to the Creator and never reverted: the earth itself, the trees, the stars, the rivers, the sun, the moon... etc. But what about human beings? Is it not true that some are not thankful to their Creator?

Quote:

Neither did any Prophet or Messenger commit sins, nor did he violate the sacredness of Allah.

I guess Mohammd's ownership of slaves and ******* a 9 or 10 year old is not considered a sin.

MikeSun5 · 10th October 2009, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?

Any Muslim worth his weight in extremism would rather kill an infidel than convert him.

Seriously though, maybe evangelism isn't mandatory in Islam like it is for the early-rising Jehovah's Witnesses.

MikeSun5 · 10th October 2009, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why should i be denied the virgins....?

Oh, by all means, go get some virgins if you want them. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I hear they're not very good at sex...

Hux · 10th October 2009, 09:02 PM

Who wants 72 virgins? Far better a half a dozen dirty little sluts who know their way around?

Jontg · 10th October 2009, 09:04 PM

Ffs, people, these people marry kids to each other to this day--it's not expected that a child spouse is going to have sex until they're of a proper age. Nobody who knows what they're talking about will tell you that Muhammad did anything of the sort to Aisha. IMO the man was a fraud, but don't call him a pedophile without any evidence.
Oh, and everyone who was anyone had slaves back then. It doesn't make them evil, it means they lived in an evil time. By which I mean most of history. And when we're gone, if we manage to not force humanity back into the Dark Ages, our more enlightened descendants will look at the way we treated gays and atheists and say we lived in evil times, too. And their descendants will call them unenlightened primitives for something we don't even know is wrong yet.

Hux · 10th October 2009, 09:11 PM

According to the Haddith (which I read from one of the sites so I cannot guarantee the provenance)Aisha was the daughter of Mo's best mate and Mo lusted after her from when she was four years old. He kept trying to convince his pal to let her go live with Mo. The pal refused but relented when she turned six. Mo of course had the decency not to shag her until she was nine years old.

Aisha herself reported that she would often attend school, with her doll and the prophets 'emission' on her dress. As I say, this came from two seperate sites by Muslims who stated they had left the faith so I cannot confirm. However it is plain big Mo took her as a wife while she was a young girl. I have even heard modern Muslims defend it (saying most Muslims did it then) let alone deny it. That makes Mo a disgusting paedophile in my book.

MattusMaximus · 10th October 2009, 09:24 PM

Why would going door-to-door, disturbing & pissing people off during their free time, while spewing nonsense about your religion, make any religion or philosophy a worthy endeavor?

This whole thread reminds me of this little gem

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Roboramma · 10th October 2009, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jontg

Oh, and everyone who was anyone had slaves back then. It doesn't make them evil, it means they lived in an evil time. By which I mean most of history. And when we're gone, if we manage to not force humanity back into the Dark Ages, our more enlightened descendants will look at the way we treated gays and atheists and say we lived in evil times, too. And their descendants will call them unenlightened primitives for something we don't even know is wrong yet.

Well, that's all well and good for people who we all admit have their failings, and are products of their times.

It doesn't work for the prophet of allah. I mean, if we're meant to base our morality on what he said, it would help if his moral failings weren't greater than ours.

gtc · 10th October 2009, 11:05 PM

gtc pulls on his fisking boots.

Originally Posted by Jontg

Ffs, people, these people marry kids to each other to this day

That is wholly irrelevant because Mo was an adult at the time. And it is not a moral thing to do irrespective of whether you are forcing a 6 year old child to marry a grown man or a 6 year old child to marry another 6 year old child.

Originally Posted by Jontg

--it's not expected that a child spouse is going to have sex until they're of a proper age.

He married her when she was either 6 or 7, consumated the marriage by the age of 10. That is hardly the 'proper age' for the sexual partner of a grown man who is supposedly without sin.

Originally Posted by Jontg

Nobody who knows what they're talking about will tell you that Muhammad did anything of the sort to Aisha.

You've shown you aren't someone who knows what they are talking about so I won't take your word for this.

Originally Posted by Jontg

IMO the man was a fraud, but don't call him a pedophile without any evidence.

The evidence is that he ****** a 10 year old.

Originally Posted by Jontg

Oh, and everyone who was anyone had slaves back then. It doesn't make them evil, it means they lived in an evil time.

Did I say it made him evil? I said it meant that he was obviously not without sin.

Jontg · 10th October 2009, 11:25 PM

On the contrary--the general consensus seems to be that he didn't lay a finger on her until she was in her teens. You know, around the same age as Mary?

ETA: Oh, and even if he did, it wasn't "sinful" by any stretch of the imagination. From the perspective of his contemporaries, whatever he did was perfectly normal, and certainly didn't seem to traumatize the girl. You're forgetting that concepts like childhood and adolescence are pretty much modern, Western things--once a girl got her first period, it was open season. "Sin," by the traditional definition, requires both awareness and intent--and nobody thought any of this was in any way wrong or unusual at the time. We'd probably all wring our hands and throw Muhammad in jail in the modern era, but like I said, he'd have to share a cell with Joseph.

Polaris · 11th October 2009, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword.

You can dish it out, but can't take it, I see.

hamelekim · 11th October 2009, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

You can dish it out, but can't take it, I see.

Dish what out? I don't condone any Christian, past, present, or future who uses force to convert someone.

Polaris · 11th October 2009, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Jontg

On the contrary--the general consensus seems to be that he didn't lay a finger on her until she was in her teens. You know, around the same age as Mary?

ETA: Oh, and even if he did, it wasn't "sinful" by any stretch of the imagination. From the perspective of his contemporaries, whatever he did was perfectly normal, and certainly didn't seem to traumatize the girl. You're forgetting that concepts like childhood and adolescence are pretty much modern, Western things--once a girl got her first period, it was open season. "Sin," by the traditional definition, requires both awareness and intent--and nobody thought any of this was in any way wrong or unusual at the time. We'd probably all wring our hands and throw Muhammad in jail in the modern era, but like I said, he'd have to share a cell with Joseph.

Islam considers Mohammad to be perfect, and to be imitated. One of the tenets of Islam is that what is not forbidden is permitted. And since Allah did not expressly forbid pederasty, that means that to this day it is permitted according to Islam, since questioning the Quran is one of those sins. Hence the age of 9 being the minimum in Iran today (lip service is paid to waiting a while, but authorities don't bother really enforcing that one).

So yeah, it's technically not a sin in Islam to rape a pre-teen, just as long as you marry her first. This is not a creed that should be tolerated today.

gtc · 11th October 2009, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jontg

On the contrary--the general consensus seems to be that he didn't lay a finger on her until she was in her teens.

I'm sure then that you can provide some evidence of this 'general consensus'.

Originally Posted by Jontg

You know, around the same age as Mary?

And the relevance of this is? No one has suggested that Joseph was without sin but I do note that there is no evidence to suggest that he ****** 9 year old girls.

Originally Posted by Jontg

ETA: Oh, and even if he did, it wasn't "sinful" by any stretch of the imagination. From the perspective of his contemporaries, whatever he did was perfectly normal, and certainly didn't seem to traumatize the girl. You're forgetting that concepts like childhood and adolescence are pretty much modern, Western things--once a girl got her first period, it was open season. "Sin," by the traditional definition, requires both awareness and intent--and nobody thought any of this was in any way wrong or unusual at the time. We'd probably all wring our hands and throw Muhammad in jail in the modern era, but like I said, he'd have to share a cell with Joseph.

Then arguing that Mo was without sin is meaningless then.

hamelekim · 11th October 2009, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

Islam considers Mohammad to be perfect, and to be imitated. One of the tenets of Islam is that what is not forbidden is permitted. And since Allah did not expressly forbid pederasty, that means that to this day it is permitted according to Islam, since questioning the Quran is one of those sins. Hence the age of 9 being the minimum in Iran today (lip service is paid to waiting a while, but authorities don't bother really enforcing that one).

So yeah, it's technically not a sin in Islam to rape a pre-teen, just as long as you marry her first. This is not a creed that should be tolerated today.

Mohammad wasn't even perfect in the sense that humanity views perfection, in regards to peacefulness. Plus he had a child bride, and he was quick to anger, etc...

Seems that Islam is more about allowing men to do whatever they want in the world and just subjugate everything and everyone else.

Andrew Wiggin · 11th October 2009, 02:13 AM

I'd say that they don't go door to door for the same reason athiests don't preach on street corners. That would be wacky behavior. It doesn't stop being wacky behavior just because a couple of christain sects do it. I'm convinced that the REAL reason witnesses go door to door is to affirm their own faith in the face of ridicule. I've heard no evidence that they actually gain converts that way, but they certainly establish themselves as an out-group and that enhances their own feelings of worth and cohesiveness. If everyone thinks we're wacky, we must be right, right? We must be the sole keepers of the truth, right? They must be too stupid or evil to accept it... Nothing like a little public ridicule to keep a small sect/cult cohesive and firm in its beliefs.

On the other hand, islam is a big religion. They don't need to engage in small sect/cult tactics to maintain group cohesiveness. Islam has the same cohesiveness christainity has; not much. It just doesn't need external rejection to function, and if it did, it has no shortage.

A.

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Dish what out? I don't condone any Christian, past, present, or future who uses force to convert someone.

You forgot about the Nicene council not to mention the inquisition?

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:18 AM

I think I would love to have heard one of the great 'atheists' doing some street corner oration. A fresh breeze of reason ans reality. I guarantee there would be crowds in the UK. As far as I can tell, whenever there is an Evangelist or a 'born again' on the street corners of my City, a few people congregate to have a good laugh and a good deal of heckling. I suspect, although I cannot prove it, that mainstream Christians just hurry by. But I think it fair to say most crowds are not there to be supportive of the Evangelists.

Ladewig · 11th October 2009, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Mohammad had a child bride, and he was quick to anger, etc...

Quicker that Jesus? "Damn you, you fig tree with no figs on it."

Cainkane1 · 11th October 2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc...

Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door...

Nada...Zip...Zero...

Why?

Why should i be denied the virgins....?

Allah Akbar...

Thanks...

DB

I have a question. Why would a woman want to be a Muslim? What does she get in heaven? 72 studs?

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:49 AM

GTC wrote:

Quote:

And the relevance of this is? No one has suggested that Joseph was without sin but I do note that there is no evidence to suggest that he ****** 9 year old girls.

Wasn't that God's prerogative? Are we not supposed to believe Joseph never played hide the sausage with Mary at all?

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:51 AM

Deleted: Double posting

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I have a question. Why would a woman want to be a Muslim? What does she get in heaven? 72 studs?

As I understand it, Women have a special place in Hell. There are several attributable quotes from big Mo' 'suggesting' women are less than worthy to enter Paradise. Unless of course they die as Virgins, which might not be seen as a decent career move.

Jontg · 11th October 2009, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

Then arguing that Mo was without sin is meaningless then.

Thing is, I never said that.

Originally Posted by Polaris

So yeah, it's technically not a sin in Islam to rape a pre-teen, just as long as you marry her first. This is not a creed that should be tolerated today.

And where do you get the idea that it was rape? Are you one of those extreme feminists who think all married sex is rape? Or are you trying to drag the modern, Western notion of an "age of consent" into a discussion about the ethics of a 6th-century Arab?

tsig · 11th October 2009, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Jontg

Thing is, I never said that.

And where do you get the idea that it was rape? Are you one of those extreme feminists who think all married sex is rape? Or are you trying to drag the modern, Western notion of an "age of consent" into a discussion about the ethics of a 6th-century Arab?

That "6th-century Arab" was supposed to be a prophet of god acting out eternal verities here in human terms.

stevea · 11th October 2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword.

Not so fast, Islam takes pride in forbidding forced conversion. Instead they treat Christians and Jews as 3rd class humans, have little standing before the law, and are forced to pay tribute. So it's more a case of massive coercion than force. My suspicion is they treat those not of the Abrahamic tradition even worse. Of course forced circumcision has been applied regularly, even in recent years. Minority religions are mistreated horribly throughout the middle-east.

The swords and stonings come when you want to leave Islam - apostates are often killed. There are a few Islamic website and I see these have been sanitized in recent years. On UK website used to have a question from a "believer", stating his sister was dating a non-Muslim and asking if he should stone her ?!!? The religious authorities answered along the lines that the "believer" should follow the laws where he lived, so he he should only shun/excommunicate his sister.

Still Christianity has it's own bloody history - read the 'Song of Roland' where Charlemagne applies the forced conversion or death policy to Muslims and Jews alike in Western Europe. Of course the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades were both driven by religion and it's inherent intolerance.

I think the point is clear enough - religion and political power is terrible combination.
All religions are exclusionary and intolerant at their core.

Western Christianity has been largely removed from political power after centuries of strife. The old Soviet Union and Chinese communism have removed religion from the potential of political power by more draconian means in the past century.

The idea that the sort of people who support fatwa, punish apostates, are intolerant of other beliefs and want the establishment of sharia are ready to participate in a secular pluralistisc society is nonsense.

JJM 777 · 11th October 2009, 11:43 AM

I remember encountering five kinds of religious proselytizing person-to-person:
- Once or twice an evangelical Christian has called me to an event on the street.
- Jehovah's Witnesses have knocked my door in maybe 50% of apartments where I have ever lived.
- In one city I had a few chats with Mormons on the street.
- A young wannabe-monk once begged for 10 cents on street "to buy some porridge" (refused to take more than that from me), and gave an Asian religious book whose long and complex name I don't remember.
- A Muslim man once gave me a tractate while I was walking in the Christian Quarter of Jerusalem Old City in ~~Israel~~ ~~Palestine~~ ~~International UN Mandate~~ well somewhere in Middle East. He smiled like a real evangelical Christian. Maybe they are fed up with evangelical Christians doing the same in Muslim neighbourhoods of Jerusalem, so they have learned to do the same trick to Christians, with similarly styled tractates and a "~~Jesus~~ Mohammed loves you" smile on their face.

Hux · 11th October 2009, 11:44 AM

I once watched a Muslim 'phone in' on UK TV and my wife would not have beleived it had she not seen it for herself.

A Muslim has phoned in to ask this 'expert' how hard he could hit his wife? The 'expert' replied, as many times as you wish but do not leave a mark. Do this in love , he stated, not in malice.

These people are primitives.

I keep hearing the comparisons of Christian violence and brutality. Iam no apologist for Christianity but for Pete's sake, just look at the years in which these acts took place. There is clear legroom of a few centuries and I would submit most of us have learned to be repulsed by such brutality in the name of religion. They cannot stop themselves harping on about the Crusades. I know things were, to say the least, very bad. But it was 1500 years ago. Should I apologise for those actions (there were atrocities on both sides) whilst donning a Flak jacket?

They will not be content until they drag everyone backwards with them.

Jontg · 11th October 2009, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

That "6th-century Arab" was supposed to be a prophet of god acting out eternal verities here in human terms.

And I never said that, either. I'm a militant atheist--I think the man was a fraud and a warlord. But "pedophile" is a serious and very specific accusation--and since a girl was fair game the second she hit her first period (something that was not outside the realm of possibility when she was ten), I'm not even sure if it was possible to be a pedophile back then. It's not a charge you level on somebody over petty cultural differences, no matter how much you dislike him and his religion.

Ron_Tomkins · 11th October 2009, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by De_Bunk

...and the Mormons....with their smart shirts and ties...and those little shoulder bags...They don't come back no more to visit me...

And the local Jehovies who called the Police...(100% true)...they don't come back no more...

DB

Aawww come on dude. Don't get like that.
There are still people out there who love you

10th October 2009, 01:05 PM	#1
De_Bunk Scourge of the Believer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 4,568	If 'Islam' is such a great religion...Why don't they go 'door to door' like the rest. Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc... Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door... Nada...Zip...Zero... Why? Why should i be denied the virgins....? Allah Akbar... Thanks... DB
	__________________ "Do not stand at my grave and weep".... 1. I'm dead...

10th October 2009, 01:08 PM	#2
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

10th October 2009, 01:16 PM	#4
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 16,228	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc... Good question. Maybe Jehovas Witnesses are the real terrorists after all.
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 16,228	__________________ εχΧọή MФBĪLE CǾNFĮŔMS GLФв∆L ΨĂЯMΐNĢ

10th October 2009, 01:36 PM	#5
Sledge Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Coming to you live from the Sledge cave Posts: 901	Does any religion other than some sects of Christianity go door-to-door?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

10th October 2009, 01:38 PM	#6
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by Sledge Does any religion other than some sects of Christianity go door-to-door? the Amish ? mind you I think thats just to sell quilts
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

10th October 2009, 01:16 PM	#3
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc... Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door... Nada...Zip...Zero... Why? Why should i be denied the virgins....? Allah Akbar... Thanks... DB They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword.

10th October 2009, 01:43 PM	#7
De_Bunk Scourge of the Believer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 4,568	...and the Mormons....with their smart shirts and ties...and those little shoulder bags...They don't come back no more to visit me... And the local Jehovies who called the Police...(100% true)...they don't come back no more... DB
	__________________ "Do not stand at my grave and weep".... 1. I'm dead...

10th October 2009, 02:43 PM	#8
TShaitanaku Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 932	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc... Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door... Nada...Zip...Zero... Why? Why should i be denied the virgins....? Allah Akbar... Thanks... DB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...onary_Activity
TShaitanaku Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 932

10th October 2009, 02:52 PM	#9
normdoering Muse Join Date: May 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 646	Originally Posted by hamelekim They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword. And then we have to answer back with a gun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEwkeH2XiTQ

10th October 2009, 03:09 PM	#10
De_Bunk Scourge of the Believer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 4,568	Normdoering... Sword...Leaflet...Shiny teeth...Shoulder bag...all the same... DB
	__________________ "Do not stand at my grave and weep".... 1. I'm dead...

10th October 2009, 08:18 PM	#11
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,109	I've seen Muslims ~~prosetlyising~~ setting up a street stall to try to convert people in London and twice in the last month everyone in my office has received pamphlets from Egypt trying to convert us to Islam (apparently they got our names and address off the internet). Excerpts: Quote: Everything has submitted to the Creator and never reverted: the earth itself, the trees, the stars, the rivers, the sun, the moon... etc. But what about human beings? Is it not true that some are not thankful to their Creator? Quote: Neither did any Prophet or Messenger commit sins, nor did he violate the sacredness of Allah. I guess Mohammd's ownership of slaves and ******* a 9 or 10 year old is not considered a sin.
	__________________

10th October 2009, 08:56 PM	#12
MikeSun5 Trigger Happy Pacifist, Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 926	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert? Any Muslim worth his weight in extremism would rather kill an infidel than convert him. Seriously though, maybe evangelism isn't mandatory in Islam like it is for the early-rising Jehovah's Witnesses.
	__________________ I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh

10th October 2009, 08:58 PM	#13
MikeSun5 Trigger Happy Pacifist, Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 926	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why should i be denied the virgins....? Oh, by all means, go get some virgins if you want them. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but I hear they're not very good at sex...
	__________________ I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh

10th October 2009, 09:02 PM	#14
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Who wants 72 virgins? Far better a half a dozen dirty little sluts who know their way around?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

10th October 2009, 09:04 PM	#15
Jontg The Bear Skeptic Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: A world without gods. Posts: 734	Ffs, people, these people marry kids to each other to this day--it's not expected that a child spouse is going to have sex until they're of a proper age. Nobody who knows what they're talking about will tell you that Muhammad did anything of the sort to Aisha. IMO the man was a fraud, but don't call him a pedophile without any evidence. Oh, and everyone who was anyone had slaves back then. It doesn't make them evil, it means they lived in an evil time. By which I mean most of history. And when we're gone, if we manage to not force humanity back into the Dark Ages, our more enlightened descendants will look at the way we treated gays and atheists and say we lived in evil times, too. And their descendants will call them unenlightened primitives for something we don't even know is wrong yet.
	__________________ Okay, so far, Jontg is right, and everyone else is wrong. - Prometheus Free Trade, Free Culture, Free Will - Support the New World Order. Last edited by Jontg; 10th October 2009 at 09:08 PM.

10th October 2009, 09:11 PM	#16
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	According to the Haddith (which I read from one of the sites so I cannot guarantee the provenance)Aisha was the daughter of Mo's best mate and Mo lusted after her from when she was four years old. He kept trying to convince his pal to let her go live with Mo. The pal refused but relented when she turned six. Mo of course had the decency not to shag her until she was nine years old. Aisha herself reported that she would often attend school, with her doll and the prophets 'emission' on her dress. As I say, this came from two seperate sites by Muslims who stated they had left the faith so I cannot confirm. However it is plain big Mo took her as a wife while she was a young girl. I have even heard modern Muslims defend it (saying most Muslims did it then) let alone deny it. That makes Mo a disgusting paedophile in my book.
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10th October 2009, 09:39 PM	#18
Roboramma Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 3,374	Originally Posted by Jontg Oh, and everyone who was anyone had slaves back then. It doesn't make them evil, it means they lived in an evil time. By which I mean most of history. And when we're gone, if we manage to not force humanity back into the Dark Ages, our more enlightened descendants will look at the way we treated gays and atheists and say we lived in evil times, too. And their descendants will call them unenlightened primitives for something we don't even know is wrong yet. Well, that's all well and good for people who we all admit have their failings, and are products of their times. It doesn't work for the prophet of allah. I mean, if we're meant to base our morality on what he said, it would help if his moral failings weren't greater than ours.
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10th October 2009, 11:05 PM	#19
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,109	gtc pulls on his fisking boots. Originally Posted by Jontg Ffs, people, these people marry kids to each other to this day That is wholly irrelevant because Mo was an adult at the time. And it is not a moral thing to do irrespective of whether you are forcing a 6 year old child to marry a grown man or a 6 year old child to marry another 6 year old child. Originally Posted by Jontg --it's not expected that a child spouse is going to have sex until they're of a proper age. He married her when she was either 6 or 7, consumated the marriage by the age of 10. That is hardly the 'proper age' for the sexual partner of a grown man who is supposedly without sin. Originally Posted by Jontg Nobody who knows what they're talking about will tell you that Muhammad did anything of the sort to Aisha. You've shown you aren't someone who knows what they are talking about so I won't take your word for this. Originally Posted by Jontg IMO the man was a fraud, but don't call him a pedophile without any evidence. The evidence is that he **** a 10 year old. Originally Posted by Jontg** Oh, and everyone who was anyone had slaves back then. It doesn't make them evil, it means they lived in an evil time. Did I say it made him evil? I said it meant that he was obviously not without sin.
	__________________ Last edited by gtc; 10th October 2009 at 11:06 PM.

10th October 2009, 11:25 PM	#20
Jontg The Bear Skeptic Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: A world without gods. Posts: 734	On the contrary--the general consensus seems to be that he didn't lay a finger on her until she was in her teens. You know, around the same age as Mary? ETA: Oh, and even if he did, it wasn't "sinful" by any stretch of the imagination. From the perspective of his contemporaries, whatever he did was perfectly normal, and certainly didn't seem to traumatize the girl. You're forgetting that concepts like childhood and adolescence are pretty much modern, Western things--once a girl got her first period, it was open season. "Sin," by the traditional definition, requires both awareness and intent--and nobody thought any of this was in any way wrong or unusual at the time. We'd probably all wring our hands and throw Muhammad in jail in the modern era, but like I said, he'd have to share a cell with Joseph.
	__________________ Okay, so far, Jontg is right, and everyone else is wrong. - Prometheus Free Trade, Free Culture, Free Will - Support the New World Order. Last edited by Jontg; 10th October 2009 at 11:30 PM.

11th October 2009, 01:30 AM	#21
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,161	Originally Posted by hamelekim They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword. You can dish it out, but can't take it, I see.
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,161	__________________ Dios le da pan a quien no tiene dientes. "3 out of 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse support Obama..." - megaresp

11th October 2009, 01:41 AM	#22
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Polaris You can dish it out, but can't take it, I see. Dish what out? I don't condone any Christian, past, present, or future who uses force to convert someone.

11th October 2009, 01:49 AM	#23
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,161	Originally Posted by Jontg On the contrary--the general consensus seems to be that he didn't lay a finger on her until she was in her teens. You know, around the same age as Mary? ETA: Oh, and even if he did, it wasn't "sinful" by any stretch of the imagination. From the perspective of his contemporaries, whatever he did was perfectly normal, and certainly didn't seem to traumatize the girl. You're forgetting that concepts like childhood and adolescence are pretty much modern, Western things--once a girl got her first period, it was open season. "Sin," by the traditional definition, requires both awareness and intent--and nobody thought any of this was in any way wrong or unusual at the time. We'd probably all wring our hands and throw Muhammad in jail in the modern era, but like I said, he'd have to share a cell with Joseph. Islam considers Mohammad to be perfect, and to be imitated. One of the tenets of Islam is that what is not forbidden is permitted. And since Allah did not expressly forbid pederasty, that means that to this day it is permitted according to Islam, since questioning the Quran is one of those sins. Hence the age of 9 being the minimum in Iran today (lip service is paid to waiting a while, but authorities don't bother really enforcing that one). So yeah, it's technically not a sin in Islam to rape a pre-teen, just as long as you marry her first. This is not a creed that should be tolerated today.
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,161	__________________ Dios le da pan a quien no tiene dientes. "3 out of 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse support Obama..." - megaresp

11th October 2009, 01:58 AM	#24
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,109	Originally Posted by Jontg On the contrary--the general consensus seems to be that he didn't lay a finger on her until she was in her teens. I'm sure then that you can provide some evidence of this 'general consensus'. Originally Posted by Jontg You know, around the same age as Mary? And the relevance of this is? No one has suggested that Joseph was without sin but I do note that there is no evidence to suggest that he **** 9 year old girls. Originally Posted by Jontg** ETA: Oh, and even if he did, it wasn't "sinful" by any stretch of the imagination. From the perspective of his contemporaries, whatever he did was perfectly normal, and certainly didn't seem to traumatize the girl. You're forgetting that concepts like childhood and adolescence are pretty much modern, Western things--once a girl got her first period, it was open season. "Sin," by the traditional definition, requires both awareness and intent--and nobody thought any of this was in any way wrong or unusual at the time. We'd probably all wring our hands and throw Muhammad in jail in the modern era, but like I said, he'd have to share a cell with Joseph. Then arguing that Mo was without sin is meaningless then.
	__________________

11th October 2009, 02:05 AM	#25
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Polaris Islam considers Mohammad to be perfect, and to be imitated. One of the tenets of Islam is that what is not forbidden is permitted. And since Allah did not expressly forbid pederasty, that means that to this day it is permitted according to Islam, since questioning the Quran is one of those sins. Hence the age of 9 being the minimum in Iran today (lip service is paid to waiting a while, but authorities don't bother really enforcing that one). So yeah, it's technically not a sin in Islam to rape a pre-teen, just as long as you marry her first. This is not a creed that should be tolerated today. Mohammad wasn't even perfect in the sense that humanity views perfection, in regards to peacefulness. Plus he had a child bride, and he was quick to anger, etc... Seems that Islam is more about allowing men to do whatever they want in the world and just subjugate everything and everyone else.

11th October 2009, 02:13 AM	#26
Andrew Wiggin Muse Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for it's dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 578	I'd say that they don't go door to door for the same reason athiests don't preach on street corners. That would be wacky behavior. It doesn't stop being wacky behavior just because a couple of christain sects do it. I'm convinced that the REAL reason witnesses go door to door is to affirm their own faith in the face of ridicule. I've heard no evidence that they actually gain converts that way, but they certainly establish themselves as an out-group and that enhances their own feelings of worth and cohesiveness. If everyone thinks we're wacky, we must be right, right? We must be the sole keepers of the truth, right? They must be too stupid or evil to accept it... Nothing like a little public ridicule to keep a small sect/cult cohesive and firm in its beliefs. On the other hand, islam is a big religion. They don't need to engage in small sect/cult tactics to maintain group cohesiveness. Islam has the same cohesiveness christainity has; not much. It just doesn't need external rejection to function, and if it did, it has no shortage. A.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

11th October 2009, 06:33 AM	#27
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Originally Posted by hamelekim Dish what out? I don't condone any Christian, past, present, or future who uses force to convert someone. You forgot about the Nicene council not to mention the inquisition?

11th October 2009, 08:18 AM	#28
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	I think I would love to have heard one of the great 'atheists' doing some street corner oration. A fresh breeze of reason ans reality. I guarantee there would be crowds in the UK. As far as I can tell, whenever there is an Evangelist or a 'born again' on the street corners of my City, a few people congregate to have a good laugh and a good deal of heckling. I suspect, although I cannot prove it, that mainstream Christians just hurry by. But I think it fair to say most crowds are not there to be supportive of the Evangelists.
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11th October 2009, 08:38 AM	#29
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Originally Posted by hamelekim Mohammad had a child bride, and he was quick to anger, etc... Quicker that Jesus? "Damn you, you fig tree with no figs on it."
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

11th October 2009, 08:43 AM	#30
Cainkane1 Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 2,566	Originally Posted by De_Bunk Why ain't i had no Muslims knocking asking if i want to convert?...dropping off leaflets...telling me about the 72 virgins....etc... Millions and millions of Muslims...not a single leaflet/booklet with pics of people smiling whilst the planet Earth burns behind them and walking with Lions (RE: Jehovies leaflets) put thru my door... Nada...Zip...Zero... Why? Why should i be denied the virgins....? Allah Akbar... Thanks... DB I have a question. Why would a woman want to be a Muslim? What does she get in heaven? 72 studs?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

11th October 2009, 08:49 AM	#31
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	GTC wrote: Quote: And the relevance of this is? No one has suggested that Joseph was without sin but I do note that there is no evidence to suggest that he ****** 9 year old girls. Wasn't that God's prerogative? Are we not supposed to believe Joseph never played hide the sausage with Mary at all?
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11th October 2009, 08:51 AM	#32
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Deleted: Double posting
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

11th October 2009, 08:54 AM	#33
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 I have a question. Why would a woman want to be a Muslim? What does she get in heaven? 72 studs? As I understand it, Women have a special place in Hell. There are several attributable quotes from big Mo' 'suggesting' women are less than worthy to enter Paradise. Unless of course they die as Virgins, which might not be seen as a decent career move.
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11th October 2009, 10:58 AM	#34
Jontg The Bear Skeptic Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: A world without gods. Posts: 734	Originally Posted by gtc Then arguing that Mo was without sin is meaningless then. Thing is, I never said that. Originally Posted by Polaris So yeah, it's technically not a sin in Islam to rape a pre-teen, just as long as you marry her first. This is not a creed that should be tolerated today. And where do you get the idea that it was rape? Are you one of those extreme feminists who think all married sex is rape? Or are you trying to drag the modern, Western notion of an "age of consent" into a discussion about the ethics of a 6th-century Arab?
	__________________ Okay, so far, Jontg is right, and everyone else is wrong. - Prometheus Free Trade, Free Culture, Free Will - Support the New World Order. Last edited by Jontg; 11th October 2009 at 11:01 AM.

11th October 2009, 11:20 AM	#35
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,872	Originally Posted by Jontg Thing is, I never said that. And where do you get the idea that it was rape? Are you one of those extreme feminists who think all married sex is rape? Or are you trying to drag the modern, Western notion of an "age of consent" into a discussion about the ethics of a 6th-century Arab? That "6th-century Arab" was supposed to be a prophet of god acting out eternal verities here in human terms.

11th October 2009, 11:28 AM	#36
stevea Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 217	Originally Posted by hamelekim They prefer to convert you at the point of a sword. Not so fast, Islam takes pride in forbidding forced conversion. Instead they treat Christians and Jews as 3rd class humans, have little standing before the law, and are forced to pay tribute. So it's more a case of massive coercion than force. My suspicion is they treat those not of the Abrahamic tradition even worse. Of course forced circumcision has been applied regularly, even in recent years. Minority religions are mistreated horribly throughout the middle-east. The swords and stonings come when you want to leave Islam - apostates are often killed. There are a few Islamic website and I see these have been sanitized in recent years. On UK website used to have a question from a "believer", stating his sister was dating a non-Muslim and asking if he should stone her ?!!? The religious authorities answered along the lines that the "believer" should follow the laws where he lived, so he he should only shun/excommunicate his sister. Still Christianity has it's own bloody history - read the 'Song of Roland' where Charlemagne applies the forced conversion or death policy to Muslims and Jews alike in Western Europe. Of course the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades were both driven by religion and it's inherent intolerance. I think the point is clear enough - religion and political power is terrible combination. All religions are exclusionary and intolerant at their core. Western Christianity has been largely removed from political power after centuries of strife. The old Soviet Union and Chinese communism have removed religion from the potential of political power by more draconian means in the past century. The idea that the sort of people who support fatwa, punish apostates, are intolerant of other beliefs and want the establishment of sharia are ready to participate in a secular pluralistisc society is nonsense.
stevea Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 217