Fountains of the deep

hamelekim · 11th October 2009, 03:19 AM

According to this documentary I am watching called "Inside Planet Earth" from 2009 there is more water under the surface of the earth than above it.

This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances.

Starthinker · 11th October 2009, 06:08 AM

Given the volume of the oceans I don't think that's possible. Myths and stories are products of imaginations and thus don't have to have a scientific explanation for things that happen in them.

Dancing David · 11th October 2009, 06:17 AM

Okay, um, so there may be water in the mantle, right?

And so what does the rest of it mean? How much water comes up from the mantle?

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

According to this documentary I am watching called "Inside Planet Earth" from 2009 there is more water under the surface of the earth than above it.

This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances.

Why do you abandon thread after thread and start new ones like another poster we all know and "love"?

Twiler · 11th October 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Why do you abandon thread after thread and start new ones like another poster we all know and "love"?

To be fair, he is discussing topics that have a reasonable degree of difference.

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 07:28 AM

Edited by Tricky:

Edited for civility.

Marduk · 11th October 2009, 08:07 AM

its irrelevant wether or not there is enough water to flood the earth, it hasn't happened during the holocene
see chart

at the period that creationists claim the flood happened the sea levels were about 1 metre lower than they are presently

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:10 AM

These are terms of reference that creationists will not understand. It's understandable since they insist the world began, around about the time the Sumerian's were brewing Beer.

pakeha · 11th October 2009, 08:22 AM

An interesting post, marduk.

The dig at the Nabta Playa produced a megalithic stone circle from around that, but no Flood evidence.

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:23 AM

Are they now claiming it gushed up from below rather than raining 40 days and 40 nights?

Ladewig · 11th October 2009, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Are they now claiming it gushed up from below rather than raining 40 days and 40 nights?

The exact line from the Bible is Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

. . . . . . . . . .
As for the OP, it is not just a matter of there is no evidence of a flood, it is a matter of there is overwhelmingly strong evidence that there was no flood at all in the pat 6000 years.

Originally Posted by hamelekim

It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances.

no

Hux · 11th October 2009, 08:58 AM

Can anyone confirm but I read that (if the waters gushed up) and it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, the barometric pressure of the air would be that of a pressure cooker and that nothing could survive in air or in sea by it?

Marduk · 11th October 2009, 09:16 AM

I don't suppose that pointing out that looking for Noahs flood is an exercise in futility when the story was based on a mesopotamian story about a flooded river which is not unusual for a civilisation built along rivers prone to flooding

hamelekim I know that you are prone to run away whenever anyone suggests something you have no explanation for, but which of these is original and which the derivation, the clue will be in which tense they are written, can you answer that ?

Quote:

When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

Quote:

And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth

Quote:

I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.

Quote:

And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth

joobz · 11th October 2009, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances.

It would also correlate to the large oceans of water that existed in the precambrian epoch 650 million years ago.

MG1962 · 11th October 2009, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Given the volume of the oceans I don't think that's possible. Myths and stories are products of imaginations and thus don't have to have a scientific explanation for things that happen in them.

Actually it is very true.

Oceanic crust when formed is light and very bouyant relative to the magma it is resting on. Over time this crust absorbs water, becomes heavier. Ultimately, usually when the rock encounters others boundary plates it begins sinking back into the mantle causing subduction zones.

The doco he is refering to is regarding a slight tweaking of the continental plate theory. Previously the mid ocean ridges were throught to be the powerhouse behind this phenomena. Now, through studies conducted at the Mariana Trench, the subduction zone appears to be the trigger event, and the mid ocean ridges are caused by magma welling up to fill the gaps.

Bikewer · 11th October 2009, 09:31 AM

Recall that the ancient's model of the Earth was nothing like ours; essentially a flat-bottomed bubble swimming in a cosmic sea...

Hux · 11th October 2009, 10:21 AM

Regardless of what he or anyone else might suggest as an explanation, there is simply no evidence for a global flood. If such a person like Hamelekim is not prepared to accept that, then why should they try to promote any idea that requires evidence?

I...think...I..know...what...I...mean?

Pure_Argent · 11th October 2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

According to this documentary I am watching called "Inside Planet Earth" from 2009 there is more water under the surface of the earth than above it.

And how did they come to this conclusion?

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

And how did they come to this conclusion?

They read that scientific book called the bible silly boy

MG1962 · 11th October 2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

And how did they come to this conclusion?

See post 16 for an explanation.

pakeha · 11th October 2009, 10:44 AM

Here's an 8 minute video on the Flood I found on Youtube.
It's the second part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfSvk...eature=related

This is probably elementary viewing, but it was new to me.

MG1962 · 11th October 2009, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

They read that scientific book called the bible silly boy

Dont look like the Bible to me....but thats never stopped you

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ef73d4719cd32c

temporalillusion · 11th October 2009, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances.

"Would seem to" and "does" aren't the same thing.

If you have a bunch of water under the surface, it's occupying the amount of space it is going to occupy. If you suddenly cut a big hole to allow it to "get out", it's not going to go anywhere. Water doesn't compress (at least not very well).

What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up?

Marduk · 11th October 2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up?

errrr, God ?

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 11:20 AM

Frankly, dendochronology is much more interesting (and practical) than a study of the unoriginal flood myth that the bible stole from Utnapishtim in the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh.

MG1962 · 11th October 2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

If you have a bunch of water under the surface, it's occupying the amount of space it is going to occupy. If you suddenly cut a big hole to allow it to "get out", it's not going to go anywhere. Water doesn't compress (at least not very well).

What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up?

Well it would not defy gravity. If such an event were possible on a world wide scale, the water would have to come up as steam. So in reality if that amount of steam was released into that atmosphere that quick, the last thing you would have on your mind would be drowning, because you would be to busy parboiling to death to even notice

temporalillusion · 11th October 2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

errrr, God ?

Exactly!

If one is going to invoke supernatural intervention by God, then trying to find a rational reason to believe is foolish.

Hux · 11th October 2009, 11:30 AM

Agreed. On a broader question, what is it that makes these people deny overwhelming evidence -when, if that same evidence proved their little ideas - they would have embraced it fully?

I expect we will soon hear about the 'nature of evidence'.

If a radiometric measurement device calculated an Earth of 6000 years old, the cretinists would be leaping up and down in praise of the machine, meanwhile, the rest would be giving it a shake and recalibrating the thing and trying again.

temporalillusion · 11th October 2009, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well it would not defy gravity. If such an event were possible on a world wide scale, the water would have to come up as steam. So in reality if that amount of steam was released into that atmosphere that quick, the last thing you would have on your mind would drowning, because you would be to busy parboiling to death to even notice

Why would it be steam? At least going by this documentary they're saying there's more water under the surface than above it, I doubt they'd be saying it would be huge caverns of steam.

Lol without more info about what the documentary is saying, I guess it's silly to argue for or against any point.

Ethnikos · 11th October 2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

I don't suppose that pointing out that looking for Noah's flood is an exercise in futility when the story was based on a Mesopotamian story about a flooded river which is not unusual for a civilisation built along rivers prone to flooding
. . .which of these is original and which the derivation, the clue will be in which tense they are written, can you answer that ?

That comes from the Egyptian myth of the benben bird. The other part was added "after the diaspora".
According to the Gilgamesh story, Utnapishtim released three birds, in sequence: dove, swallow, and then raven. In the Noah story, first he released a raven and a dove together. The raven kept flying but the dove returned. He then released the dove two more times, making four releases of birds altogether. Raven and dove, and dove, and dove. In the Gilgamesh version, the raven was last (never returning). In the Noah version the raven was first. In the Egyptian version, it was the benben flying around the whole time, not returning. In the Noah version, the raven flies around the whole time. Seeing how the Mesopotamian people did not know what a benben was, the post-diaspora editor could have substituted into the Egyptian story a raven, and still could have had a cohesive sort of story, making everyone happy.

MG1962 · 11th October 2009, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

Why would it be steam? At least going by this documentary they're saying there's more water under the surface than above it, I doubt they'd be saying it would be huge caverns of steam.

Lol without more info about what the documentary is saying, I guess it's silly to argue for or against any point.

In post 16 I linked to an article about how the water gets there. The seafloor becomes water logged over time, begins to sink and subduct. At this point nearly 50% of the seafloor is actually water.

As it sinks the rock melts back into the magma taking the water with it. The water obviously does not stay water but becomes steam trapped by the high pressure of the elastic rock around it

During a volcanic euption, the steam and other trapped gasses that have been trapped by the pressure begin to expand with explosive results.

hamelekim · 11th October 2009, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Why do you abandon thread after thread and start new ones like another poster we all know and "love"?

I don't abandon any threads. And frankly, if I get tired of arguing a point I don't see why I should continue just so that you feel I've attempted to defend it enough, for your liking.

hamelekim · 11th October 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

"Would seem to" and "does" aren't the same thing.

If you have a bunch of water under the surface, it's occupying the amount of space it is going to occupy. If you suddenly cut a big hole to allow it to "get out", it's not going to go anywhere. Water doesn't compress (at least not very well).

What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up?

What makes molten rock push to the surface? It could very well be that the water condenses into large underground lakes. That water could be pushed to the surface, just as lava is pushed to the surface.

Besides, God can do anything, so if he wants to push all that water to to the surface to flood it, he can.

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

I don't abandon any threads. And frankly, if I get tired of arguing a point I don't see why I should continue just so that you feel I've attempted to defend it enough, for your liking.

So you abandon them when you tire of them....why didnt you just say that?

Marduk · 11th October 2009, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Frankly, dendochronology is much more interesting (and practical) than a study of the unoriginal flood myth that the bible stole from Utnapishtim in the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh.

which in turn was stolen from Atrahasis, btw Gilgamesh is Akkadian

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

What makes molten rock push to the surface? It could very well be that the water condenses into large underground lakes. That water could be pushed to the surface, just as lava is pushed to the surface.

Besides, God can do anything, so if he wants to push all that water to to the surface to flood it, he can.

You don't know anything about convection in the mantle do you?

Marduk · 11th October 2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

That comes from the Egyptian myth of the benben bird. The other part was added "after the diaspora".
According to the Gilgamesh story, Utnapishtim released three birds, in sequence: dove, swallow, and then raven. In the Noah story, first he released a raven and a dove together. The raven kept flying but the dove returned. He then released the dove two more times, making four releases of birds altogether. Raven and dove, and dove, and dove. In the Gilgamesh version, the raven was last. In the Noah version the raven was first. In the Egyptian version, it was the benben flying around the whole time, not returning. In the Noah version, the raven flies around the whole time. Seeing how the Mesopotamian people did not know what a benben was, the post-diaspora editor could have substituted into the Egyptian story a raven, and still could have had a cohesive sort of story, making everyone happy.

if there was a prize for retarded thinking you would win it after being asked "what egyptian flood story", what is the ben ben bird ?
do you mean the benu bird aka the phoenix, I don't recall any of Noahs birds bursting into flames do you, Ben ben is a mound, not an animal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benben

there are more birds released in Noah because it is an exaggerated version of Gilgamesh which is an exaggerated version of the Atrahsis original river flood. Again, you shouldn't tak about history when you don't know what youre saying.

Marduk · 11th October 2009, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

What makes molten rock push to the surface? It could very well be that the water condenses into large underground lakes. That water could be pushed to the surface, just as lava is pushed to the surface.

theres this branch of science called geology, ever heard of it ?

pakeha · 11th October 2009, 12:29 PM

If I've understood the ice core readings, there's no evidence of a universal flood in them.

~enigma~ · 11th October 2009, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

If I've understood the ice core readings, there's no evidence of a universal flood in them.

Floodotard mode

Wouldn't the flood be ice silly boy

/Floodotard mode

11th October 2009, 03:19 AM	#1
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Fountains of the deep According to this documentary I am watching called "Inside Planet Earth" from 2009 there is more water under the surface of the earth than above it. This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances.

11th October 2009, 06:08 AM	#2
Starthinker Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,834	Given the volume of the oceans I don't think that's possible. Myths and stories are products of imaginations and thus don't have to have a scientific explanation for things that happen in them.
	__________________ Naked People Running on Treadmills \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ • Does the blue line only run on Saturday? He who doubts victory has already lost the battle.

11th October 2009, 06:17 AM	#3
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	Okay, um, so there may be water in the mantle, right? And so what does the rest of it mean? How much water comes up from the mantle?
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

11th October 2009, 07:22 AM	#5
Twiler Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 667	Originally Posted by ~enigma~ Why do you abandon thread after thread and start new ones like another poster we all know and "love"? To be fair, he is discussing topics that have a reasonable degree of difference.
Twiler Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 667

11th October 2009, 08:07 AM	#7
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	its irrelevant wether or not there is enough water to flood the earth, it hasn't happened during the holocene see chart at the period that creationists claim the flood happened the sea levels were about 1 metre lower than they are presently
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

11th October 2009, 06:27 AM	#4
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Originally Posted by hamelekim According to this documentary I am watching called "Inside Planet Earth" from 2009 there is more water under the surface of the earth than above it. This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances. Why do you abandon thread after thread and start new ones like another poster we all know and "love"?

11th October 2009, 08:10 AM	#8
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	These are terms of reference that creationists will not understand. It's understandable since they insist the world began, around about the time the Sumerian's were brewing Beer.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

11th October 2009, 08:22 AM	#9
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	An interesting post, marduk. The dig at the Nabta Playa produced a megalithic stone circle from around that, but no Flood evidence.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099

11th October 2009, 08:23 AM	#10
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Are they now claiming it gushed up from below rather than raining 40 days and 40 nights?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

11th October 2009, 08:30 AM	#11
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Originally Posted by Hux Are they now claiming it gushed up from below rather than raining 40 days and 40 nights? The exact line from the Bible is Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." . . . . . . . . . . As for the OP, it is not just a matter of there is no evidence of a flood, it is a matter of there is overwhelmingly strong evidence that there was no flood at all in the pat 6000 years. Originally Posted by hamelekim It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances. no
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?" Last edited by Ladewig; 11th October 2009 at 08:33 AM.

11th October 2009, 08:58 AM	#12
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Can anyone confirm but I read that (if the waters gushed up) and it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, the barometric pressure of the air would be that of a pressure cooker and that nothing could survive in air or in sea by it?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

11th October 2009, 09:16 AM	#13
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	I don't suppose that pointing out that looking for Noahs flood is an exercise in futility when the story was based on a mesopotamian story about a flooded river which is not unusual for a civilisation built along rivers prone to flooding hamelekim I know that you are prone to run away whenever anyone suggests something you have no explanation for, but which of these is original and which the derivation, the clue will be in which tense they are written, can you answer that ? Quote: When a seventh day arrived I sent forth a dove and released it. The dove went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. Quote: And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth Quote: I sent forth a raven and released it. The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back. It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me. Quote: And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

11th October 2009, 09:25 AM	#14
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 11,813	Originally Posted by hamelekim This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances. It would also correlate to the large oceans of water that existed in the precambrian epoch 650 million years ago.
	__________________ "Joobz you can be something else sometimes."- DOC "Hopefully joobz can one day be totally objective and unbiased ..." - DOC

11th October 2009, 09:28 AM	#15
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	Originally Posted by Starthinker Given the volume of the oceans I don't think that's possible. Myths and stories are products of imaginations and thus don't have to have a scientific explanation for things that happen in them. Actually it is very true. Oceanic crust when formed is light and very bouyant relative to the magma it is resting on. Over time this crust absorbs water, becomes heavier. Ultimately, usually when the rock encounters others boundary plates it begins sinking back into the mantle causing subduction zones. The doco he is refering to is regarding a slight tweaking of the continental plate theory. Previously the mid ocean ridges were throught to be the powerhouse behind this phenomena. Now, through studies conducted at the Mariana Trench, the subduction zone appears to be the trigger event, and the mid ocean ridges are caused by magma welling up to fill the gaps.
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031

11th October 2009, 09:31 AM	#16
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 5,249	Recall that the ancient's model of the Earth was nothing like ours; essentially a flat-bottomed bubble swimming in a cosmic sea...

11th October 2009, 10:21 AM	#17
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Regardless of what he or anyone else might suggest as an explanation, there is simply no evidence for a global flood. If such a person like Hamelekim is not prepared to accept that, then why should they try to promote any idea that requires evidence? I...think...I..know...what...I...mean?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

11th October 2009, 10:21 AM	#18
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,819	Originally Posted by hamelekim According to this documentary I am watching called "Inside Planet Earth" from 2009 there is more water under the surface of the earth than above it. And how did they come to this conclusion?
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

11th October 2009, 10:24 AM	#19
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent And how did they come to this conclusion? They read that scientific book called the bible silly boy

11th October 2009, 10:44 AM	#20
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent And how did they come to this conclusion? See post 16 for an explanation.
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031

11th October 2009, 10:45 AM	#22
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	Originally Posted by ~enigma~ They read that scientific book called the bible silly boy Dont look like the Bible to me....but thats never stopped you http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ef73d4719cd32c
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031

11th October 2009, 11:08 AM	#23
temporalillusion Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 502	Originally Posted by hamelekim This would seem to correlate with the fountains of the deep opening up in Genesis to flood the earth, would it not? It doesn't prove anything, but I found that interesting. It could physically happen, given the right set of circumstances. "Would seem to" and "does" aren't the same thing. If you have a bunch of water under the surface, it's occupying the amount of space it is going to occupy. If you suddenly cut a big hole to allow it to "get out", it's not going to go anywhere. Water doesn't compress (at least not very well). What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up?
temporalillusion Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 502	__________________ One man's reason that something is not reliable evidence is another man's whine about how others won't buy 3 magic beans with the family cow. - hgc Last edited by temporalillusion; 11th October 2009 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Clarified

11th October 2009, 11:11 AM	#24
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by temporalillusion What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up? errrr, God ?
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

11th October 2009, 11:20 AM	#25
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Frankly, dendochronology is much more interesting (and practical) than a study of the unoriginal flood myth that the bible stole from Utnapishtim in the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh.

11th October 2009, 11:27 AM	#26
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	Originally Posted by temporalillusion If you have a bunch of water under the surface, it's occupying the amount of space it is going to occupy. If you suddenly cut a big hole to allow it to "get out", it's not going to go anywhere. Water doesn't compress (at least not very well). What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up? Well it would not defy gravity. If such an event were possible on a world wide scale, the water would have to come up as steam. So in reality if that amount of steam was released into that atmosphere that quick, the last thing you would have on your mind would be drowning, because you would be to busy parboiling to death to even notice
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	Last edited by MG1962; 11th October 2009 at 11:32 AM.

11th October 2009, 11:27 AM	#27
temporalillusion Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 502	Originally Posted by Marduk errrr, God ? Exactly! If one is going to invoke supernatural intervention by God, then trying to find a rational reason to believe is foolish.
temporalillusion Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 502	__________________ One man's reason that something is not reliable evidence is another man's whine about how others won't buy 3 magic beans with the family cow. - hgc

11th October 2009, 11:30 AM	#28
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Agreed. On a broader question, what is it that makes these people deny overwhelming evidence -when, if that same evidence proved their little ideas - they would have embraced it fully? I expect we will soon hear about the 'nature of evidence'. If a radiometric measurement device calculated an Earth of 6000 years old, the cretinists would be leaping up and down in praise of the machine, meanwhile, the rest would be giving it a shake and recalibrating the thing and trying again.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

11th October 2009, 11:31 AM	#29
temporalillusion Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 502	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well it would not defy gravity. If such an event were possible on a world wide scale, the water would have to come up as steam. So in reality if that amount of steam was released into that atmosphere that quick, the last thing you would have on your mind would drowning, because you would be to busy parboiling to death to even notice Why would it be steam? At least going by this documentary they're saying there's more water under the surface than above it, I doubt they'd be saying it would be huge caverns of steam. Lol without more info about what the documentary is saying, I guess it's silly to argue for or against any point.
temporalillusion Muse Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 502	__________________ One man's reason that something is not reliable evidence is another man's whine about how others won't buy 3 magic beans with the family cow. - hgc

11th October 2009, 11:41 AM	#30
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by Marduk I don't suppose that pointing out that looking for Noah's flood is an exercise in futility when the story was based on a Mesopotamian story about a flooded river which is not unusual for a civilisation built along rivers prone to flooding . . .which of these is original and which the derivation, the clue will be in which tense they are written, can you answer that ? That comes from the Egyptian myth of the benben bird. The other part was added "after the diaspora". According to the Gilgamesh story, Utnapishtim released three birds, in sequence: dove, swallow, and then raven. In the Noah story, first he released a raven and a dove together. The raven kept flying but the dove returned. He then released the dove two more times, making four releases of birds altogether. Raven and dove, and dove, and dove. In the Gilgamesh version, the raven was last (never returning). In the Noah version the raven was first. In the Egyptian version, it was the benben flying around the whole time, not returning. In the Noah version, the raven flies around the whole time. Seeing how the Mesopotamian people did not know what a benben was, the post-diaspora editor could have substituted into the Egyptian story a raven, and still could have had a cohesive sort of story, making everyone happy.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 11th October 2009 at 12:06 PM.

11th October 2009, 11:44 AM	#31
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031	Originally Posted by temporalillusion Why would it be steam? At least going by this documentary they're saying there's more water under the surface than above it, I doubt they'd be saying it would be huge caverns of steam. Lol without more info about what the documentary is saying, I guess it's silly to argue for or against any point. In post 16 I linked to an article about how the water gets there. The seafloor becomes water logged over time, begins to sink and subduct. At this point nearly 50% of the seafloor is actually water. As it sinks the rock melts back into the magma taking the water with it. The water obviously does not stay water but becomes steam trapped by the high pressure of the elastic rock around it During a volcanic euption, the steam and other trapped gasses that have been trapped by the pressure begin to expand with explosive results.
MG1962 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,031

11th October 2009, 11:48 AM	#32
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by ~enigma~ Why do you abandon thread after thread and start new ones like another poster we all know and "love"? I don't abandon any threads. And frankly, if I get tired of arguing a point I don't see why I should continue just so that you feel I've attempted to defend it enough, for your liking.

11th October 2009, 11:51 AM	#33
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by temporalillusion "Would seem to" and "does" aren't the same thing. If you have a bunch of water under the surface, it's occupying the amount of space it is going to occupy. If you suddenly cut a big hole to allow it to "get out", it's not going to go anywhere. Water doesn't compress (at least not very well). What would make all that water all of a sudden defy gravity and come up? What makes molten rock push to the surface? It could very well be that the water condenses into large underground lakes. That water could be pushed to the surface, just as lava is pushed to the surface. Besides, God can do anything, so if he wants to push all that water to to the surface to flood it, he can.

11th October 2009, 12:01 PM	#34
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Originally Posted by hamelekim I don't abandon any threads. And frankly, if I get tired of arguing a point I don't see why I should continue just so that you feel I've attempted to defend it enough, for your liking. So you abandon them when you tire of them....why didnt you just say that?

11th October 2009, 12:02 PM	#35
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by ~enigma~ Frankly, dendochronology is much more interesting (and practical) than a study of the unoriginal flood myth that the bible stole from Utnapishtim in the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh. which in turn was stolen from Atrahasis, btw Gilgamesh is Akkadian
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

11th October 2009, 12:03 PM	#36
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Originally Posted by hamelekim What makes molten rock push to the surface? It could very well be that the water condenses into large underground lakes. That water could be pushed to the surface, just as lava is pushed to the surface. Besides, God can do anything, so if he wants to push all that water to to the surface to flood it, he can. You don't know anything about convection in the mantle do you?

11th October 2009, 12:06 PM	#37
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by Ethnikos That comes from the Egyptian myth of the benben bird. The other part was added "after the diaspora". According to the Gilgamesh story, Utnapishtim released three birds, in sequence: dove, swallow, and then raven. In the Noah story, first he released a raven and a dove together. The raven kept flying but the dove returned. He then released the dove two more times, making four releases of birds altogether. Raven and dove, and dove, and dove. In the Gilgamesh version, the raven was last. In the Noah version the raven was first. In the Egyptian version, it was the benben flying around the whole time, not returning. In the Noah version, the raven flies around the whole time. Seeing how the Mesopotamian people did not know what a benben was, the post-diaspora editor could have substituted into the Egyptian story a raven, and still could have had a cohesive sort of story, making everyone happy. if there was a prize for retarded thinking you would win it after being asked "what egyptian flood story", what is the ben ben bird ? do you mean the benu bird aka the phoenix, I don't recall any of Noahs birds bursting into flames do you, Ben ben is a mound, not an animal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benben there are more birds released in Noah because it is an exaggerated version of Gilgamesh which is an exaggerated version of the Atrahsis original river flood. Again, you shouldn't tak about history when you don't know what youre saying.
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer) Last edited by Marduk; 11th October 2009 at 12:11 PM.