Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[seayakin]

This article touches on rules of the sabbath and whether use of an elevator that stops on every floor violates the sabbath for observant Jews.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/ny...ref=middleeast

With all do respect to Judaism, isn't this one of those really absurd beliefs right up there with burying a saint's statue in your yard for good luck?

[Darat]

If God isn't a lawyer the Jews will be in serious trouble!

[BTMO]

You are freakin' kidding.

[seayakin]

I did also see something about graveyards in Israel where this architect designed a mausoleum with walls filled with dirt so the bodies are always connected to the earth since strict adherence to Jewish laws requires that the dead always be connected to the earth.

However, I don't want this thread to be about bashing Judaism. It might be interesting to see what others know of some of the most absurd practices in religion. I know for instance the Italian American Catholics engage in some pretty superstitious behavior regarding the adoration of saints and protecting themselves from evil. My own father carries around a St. Michael's medal to protect himself (which is ironic because in his younger years he would have criticized others for doing the same as superstitious nonsense). I guess the closer you get to death the more you are willing to engage in CYA behavior.

[Dancing David]

I am not sure, the prohibition against certain things is based upon the sabbath law, not doing 'work' or in the case of the light switch 'not kindling a fire'.

But all I can say is, who cares? If they want to use the elevator , that is their issue.

I would hate that myself, the elevator stopping at every floor.

[seayakin]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I am not sure, the prohibition against certain things is based upon the sabbath law, not doing 'work' or in the case of the light switch 'not kindling a fire'.

But all I can say is, who cares? If they want to use the elevator , that is their issue.

I would hate that myself, the elevator stopping at every floor.

This is definitely a live and let live kind of issue. I just find some of these extremes kind of comical.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by seayakin

With all do respect to Judaism, isn't this one of those really absurd beliefs right up there with burying a saint's statue in your yard for good luck?

Judaism is an absurd belief? You may very well have a point...


No more absurd than many other religions, and generally much less aggressive than some.

On a slightly more serious note, what is the supposed penalty if one doesn't follow these rules about not using lifts, etc?

[Hux]

This is just another case of Religious O.C.D.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by seayakin

This is definitely a live and let live kind of issue. I just find some of these extremes kind of comical.

Oh most ecrtainly, humans are full of them.

Me included.

[Hux]

A rabbi was asked why Jews undertook all these observances because they obviously made life so difficult. He said it was because these observances were so difficult that they were worth doing.

I don't really follow that. Its not immediately obvious why eating Pork is difficult. Difficulty is not a word that springs to mind when considering NOT to circumsise a baby. Clearly, not doing these things do not make a Christian less Holy, where perhaps, not participating of the Eucharist just might.

These are all man made superstitions, justified by years of repetition for no good reason. Someone might as well say, do not walk under a ladder or it will damn you to eternal torment. Using a lift on the 'Sabbath' is superstition running riot.

[Southwind17]

Originally Posted by seayakin

This is definitely a live and let live kind of issue. I just find some of these extremes kind of comical.

It's not just live and let live when it affects rational, sensible people. Such practices are pathetic and should be outlawed, for the sake of sanity.

Incidentally, how would such Jews call the lift to descend, or would they simply wait for some non-Jew on a higher floor to call it? Bad news if you're a Jew living on the top floor. Must be a darned patient bunch, I say.

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I am not sure, the prohibition against certain things is based upon the sabbath law, not doing 'work' or in the case of the light switch 'not kindling a fire'.

Bible might be logical, I mean consistent, by banning "making fire on Sabbath". How did they make fire when the Law was written? It was quite hard work, I guess. This is the problem with many things what the Bible commands people to do: what is the point originally intended, no fire or no working? When technology removes the working part of making a sparkle as electricity is turned on, is it against the original intentions of the Law or not? (Well why do I even care to ask this anyway?)

Anyone who visits Israel, will see strange things in religious areas. Don't forget the mezuzah talisman in the frame of every door, which all Talmud-observant Jews touch with a hand as they walk through the door. A nice way to spread flu, good luck with H1N1.

[Southwind17]

Originally Posted by Hux

A rabbi was asked why Jews undertook all these observances because they obviously made life so difficult. He said it was because these observances were so difficult that they were worth doing.

Maybe they should appoint a team of Jewish scientists and engineers to realize a manned mission to Mars. I'd say that's far more worth doing and darned harder.

[Hux]

Id say a very significant portion of NASA and associated think tanks are made up of Jewish people. They cant run a 100 metres to Olympic standard but they are crash hot on Calculus.

[JJM 777]

What (other than CT literature) makes you assume that a "very significant proportion" of the said think tanks are made up of "Jewish people"?

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by Hux

A rabbi was asked why Jews undertook all these observances because they obviously made life so difficult. He said it was because these observances were so difficult that they were worth doing.

I don't really follow that.

Obviously.

Quote:

Its not immediately obvious why eating Pork is difficult. Difficulty is not a word that springs to mind when considering NOT to circumsise a baby.

That's because you've gotten hold of the exactly the wrong end of the stick. Eating pork isn't especially difficult. It's _refraining_ from eating pork that is difficult, especially when your neighbors don't see anything wrong with eating pork and so when you might find pork in all sorts of things that you must nevertheless avoid eating. It requires careful attention to your diet to keep it pork-free, which in turn means you must be constantly keeping your mind on God and upon your duties to Him under the Covenant.

Similarly, it's much easier not to circumcise than to circumcise. It's much easier to build a fire on the Sabbath than to arrange things so that you can continue to live comfortably without doing so -- preparing food in advance, making sure that your fire is burning and has enough fuel to last a night and a day, and so forth.

Quote:

Clearly, not doing these things do not make a Christian less Holy,

That's not "clear" at all to me. One of the definitions of "holy" that I've seen is "mindful of God." If you buy this definition, then observant Jews are, of necessity, much more mindful of God than Christians are, because Christians don't need to keep their rules in mind 24/7.

[BTMO]

I wonder how pressing a button is seen as doing more work that walking up x flights of stairs...? (where "x" = any number greater than 0.1)

[Sledge]

It's this kind of stuff that convinced the young Sledge many years ago that religion is rubbish. God created the whole universe and everything in it, but will be angry if you operate a light switch on a certain day? Bulldust. How egotistical would you have to be to honestly believe a supereme being would care about you turning a light on?

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by BTMO

I wonder how pressing a button is seen as doing more work that walking up x flights of stairs...? (where "x" = any number greater than 0.1)

Pressing a button involves making an electrical contact, i.e. a spark.
Making a spark is "kindling a fire," which is a form of work.

Not all things that a physicist would consider "work" (i.e. a force applied through a distance) are what observant Jews consider "work" -- or for that matter, what ordinary people consider "work." Playing basketball is "work" in a physical sense, but most people consider it to be recreation instead.

In the case of Jewish Law, there is no clear definition of "work," but there is a clear enumeration of the tasks involved in building the Tabernacle. These tasks are considered to define what "work" is (since God clearly defines them as "work"), and lighting a fire is one of the 39 enumerated tasks....

[BTMO]

Originally Posted by drkitten

Pressing a button involves making an electrical contact, i.e. a spark.
Making a spark is "kindling a fire," which is a form of work.

They must have the most wonderful fire suppression systems in Jewish lift button lamps...

Making a spark ISN'T kindling a fire. That involves using bits of ... well, "kindling". With the intention of ... well, creating a fire.

Do Jews smoke (genuine question - I have no idea if there is a religious proscription against smoking)? How do they light up on the Sabbath?

Do they sit in the dark after sunset? Do they light candles - if so, how?

Do they watch television? Listen to the radio? Surf the internet?

If so, how are these sparks different?

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by BTMO

Do Jews smoke (genuine question - I have no idea if there is a religious proscription against smoking)? How do they light up on the Sabbath?

Not on the Sabbath.

Quote:

Do they sit in the dark after sunset? Do they light candles - if so, how?

The Jewish Sabbath runs from sunset to sunset -- they light candles just before the sun sets. By the time it gets dark enough to need them again, the Sabbath will be over. If for some reason the candles go out,... yes, they sit in the dark.

Quote:

Do they watch television? Listen to the radio? Surf the internet?

Sometimes, sometimes, and no. If the "fire" has already been started, you can leave it going -- so if the TV is already on at sunset, you can leave it. (In fact, I believe that you're not allowed to turn it off, for the same reason you can't turn it on.) But you're also not allowed to change channels, so you better REALLY like the Shopping Network, 'cause it's going to be on all night and all day.

Quote:

If so, how are these sparks different?

No one's "making" them. Similarly, riding in the elevator is okay as long as you don't need to press any buttons or throw any switches. Similarly, there are stoves with "Sabbath modes" that you can turn on and leave running all night and day (essentially, by disabling the safety interlock that would normally turn the stove off after it's been running for X hours).

The "Sabbath" elevator is all right because it runs all by itself, up and down, opening and closing the doors at each floor, so you don't do anything to it (like push a button).

[BTMO]

Originally Posted by drkitten

Not on the Sabbath.



The Jewish Sabbath runs from sunset to sunset -- they light candles just before the sun sets. By the time it gets dark enough to need them again, the Sabbath will be over. If for some reason the candles go out,... yes, they sit in the dark.



Sometimes, sometimes, and no. If the "fire" has already been started, you can leave it going -- so if the TV is already on at sunset, you can leave it. (In fact, I believe that you're not allowed to turn it off, for the same reason you can't turn it on.) But you're also not allowed to change channels, so you better REALLY like the Shopping Network, 'cause it's going to be on all night and all day.



No one's "making" them. Similarly, riding in the elevator is okay as long as you don't need to press any buttons or throw any switches. Similarly, there are stoves with "Sabbath modes" that you can turn on and leave running all night and day (essentially, by disabling the safety interlock that would normally turn the stove off after it's been running for X hours).

The "Sabbath" elevator is all right because it runs all by itself, up and down, opening and closing the doors at each floor, so you don't do anything to it (like push a button).

And now I understand global warming....

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by BTMO

And now I understand global warming....

Oh, it's heinously wasteful. I believe that was part of the point Way Back When. Elementary social psychology -- one of the easiest ways to make the in-group stay in and the out-group stay out is to make it hard to be in.

It's hard to be (observant) Jewish. There are a lot of rules and regulations that even the rabbis admit do not make a hell of a lot of sense, but they keep them anyway. Keeping a fire going all night and all day on the off chance you want hot water tomorrow afternoon takes a lot of firewood and is therefore expensive. Keeping two sets of dishes so that your meat doesn't touch milk and vice versa is a nuisance. But that's how the observant Jews show God how much they honor Him.

[Hux]

Quote:

But that's how the observant Jews show God how much they honor Him.

One suspects its more a case of showing how apart and different Jews see themselves from others. There is, after all, no good reason to separate meat and dairy components of meals, except by the fiat of the earliest elders. Was this not designed to ensure Jews would not sit at gentile tables and vice versa?

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by BTMO

I wonder how pressing a button is seen as doing more work that walking up x flights of stairs...? (where "x" = any number greater than 0.1)

Generally, "work" is not prohibited on the sabbath. There are two major categories of things prohibited on the sabbath. One is based on the idea that the sabbath must be honored and kept holy. That idea was developed into the idea that one should not do ordinary, everyday, things on the sabbath. It must be separated from the ordinary days. On an ordinary day, you have a job that you go to. On the sabbath, you shouldn't go there. On an ordinary day, you might do laundry. Don't do that on the sabbath. If you do something every normal day, either don't do it on the sabbath, or do it differently.

The other prohibition against "work" is based on the fact that God took 6 days to create the universe, but rested on the seventh. Now, the most misunderstood element of the sabbath prohibitions, as practiced in Judaism, is the idea that one ought to refrain from "work", in honor of God's day of rest. That's a misunderstanding, and maybe a mistranslation. The prohibited actions are not "work", but rather "creation". God spent six days creating and shaping and forming the world, but on the seventh day did no creation.

Generally, observant Jews are forbidden from creating new things, or transforming an existing thing into its final form, on the sabbath.

When one lights a match, one creates a fire. Creating a fire is something that is forbidden on the sabbath, because of the "creating" part. When electricity came along, they decided that completing an electric circuit was a lot like creating a fire, and so it was forbidden.

And this was inconvenient, but workable, so long as electrical devices were the sorts of things that were either "on" or "off" and had a switch that a person activated to make them do something. Here in the modern world, we have more and more things that activate automatically. They have some sensor that is always working, but when it detects something, it does some work, all without human intervention. Once again, the rabbits have to figure out what to do.

One thing that guides them is the idea of "building a fence around the Torah". The principle is that if it might be a violation of divine law, one cannot take a chance that you might be violating it. So, the strictest rabbis conclude that anything that completes a circuit might be like lighting a forbidden fire, and so they are inclined to say that a Jew is not allowed to do anything that might trip one of those sensors.

I think it's silly, personally, but there is no doubt that it affects their lives, and not all of those effects are negative. On those occasions when I have been in the Orthodox neighborhood on Shabbat, I have felt a very small amount of envy toward their lifestyles. Not enough to be even remotely tempted to join them, but I can understand the appeal.

[Southwind17]

Originally Posted by drkitten

If the "fire" has already been started, you can leave it going -- so if the TV is already on at sunset, you can leave it. (In fact, I believe that you're not allowed to turn it off, for the same reason you can't turn it on.) But you're also not allowed to change channels, so you better REALLY like the Shopping Network, 'cause it's going to be on all night and all day.

No one's "making" them. Similarly, riding in the elevator is okay as long as you don't need to press any buttons or throw any switches. Similarly, there are stoves with "Sabbath modes" that you can turn on and leave running all night and day (essentially, by disabling the safety interlock that would normally turn the stove off after it's been running for X hours).

The "Sabbath" elevator is all right because it runs all by itself, up and down, opening and closing the doors at each floor, so you don't do anything to it (like push a button).

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

When one lights a match, one creates a fire. Creating a fire is something that is forbidden on the sabbath, because of the "creating" part. When electricity came along, they decided that completing an electric circuit was a lot like creating a fire, and so it was forbidden.

And this was inconvenient, but workable, so long as electrical devices were the sorts of things that were either "on" or "off" and had a switch that a person activated to make them do something. Here in the modern world, we have more and more things that activate automatically. They have some sensor that is always working, but when it detects something, it does some work, all without human intervention. Once again, the rabbits have to figure out what to do.

Sorry to piss on your fireworks Jews (so to speak), but I think you should check this out.

50 "kindled fires" per second (in the UK) per appliance (not to mention individual components)!

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by BTMO

Do they watch television? Listen to the radio? Surf the internet?

If pressing a lift button is forbidden, because closing an electric circuit potentially creates a sparkle, the same logic might ban also mouse clicks or typing with keyboard. I have never seen any sparkles coming from my mouse or keyboard though.

Writing is clearly forbidden on Sabbath, so you better not have a password-protected computer or anything, because you cannot write the password. And you cannot write a website address in the web browser.

The most observant ones probably have ruled that any use of Internet is forbidden on Sabbath. The websites of some religious parties in Israel show a blank page on Sabbath, open for surfing Sunday-Friday only.

Using the telephone is forbidden on Sabbath, I have personally witnessed a religious woman sitting behind the desk at a hospital in Jerusalem, the phone ringing, the woman not answering because using a phone is forbidden on Sabbath. Hope it was somebody calling the hospital to say just hello and greetings to mom.

[Southwind17]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

If pressing a lift button is forbidden, because closing an electric circuit potentially creates a sparkle, the same logic might ban also mouse clicks or typing with keyboard. I have never seen any sparkles coming from my mouse or keyboard though.

That's because they're low voltage. It takes a much higher voltage for electricity to pass through air.

ETA: They shouldn't turn on the monitor or a laptop though!

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by drkitten

There are a lot of rules and regulations that even the rabbis admit do not make a hell of a lot an iota of sense, but they keep them anyway.

Sorry, but I had to correct that.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

If pressing a lift button is forbidden, because closing an electric circuit potentially creates a sparkle, the same logic might ban also mouse clicks or typing with keyboard. I have never seen any sparkles coming from my mouse or keyboard though.

The orthodox Jews that I know do not use computers on the sabbath.

Quote:

Using the telephone is forbidden on Sabbath, I have personally witnessed a religious woman sitting behind the desk at a hospital in Jerusalem, the phone ringing, the woman not answering because using a phone is forbidden on Sabbath. Hope it was somebody calling the hospital to say just hello and greetings to mom.

Saving life supercedes all the sabbath rules, so presumably they had a different line for emergencies.

[BTMO]

All seems a lot of damn-foolishness to me.

[Zax63]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Using the telephone is forbidden on Sabbath, I have personally witnessed a religious woman sitting behind the desk at a hospital in Jerusalem, the phone ringing, the woman not answering because using a phone is forbidden on Sabbath. Hope it was somebody calling the hospital to say just hello and greetings to mom.

Your interpretation seems a bit unlikely as someone religiously observant enough to not answer a phone is unlikely to be at work on the Sabbath. Perhaps that phone was not her responsibility or she was just a poor employee.

[BTMO]

Originally Posted by Zax63

Your interpretation seems a bit unlikely as someone religiously observant enough to not answer a phone is unlikely to be at work on the Sabbath. Perhaps that phone was not her responsibility or she was just a poor employee.

I kind of agree. It sounds more like a union issue than a religious issue to me.

"I am not employed to answer that phone."

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by seayakin

This article touches on rules of the sabbath and whether use of an elevator that stops on every floor violates the sabbath for observant Jews.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/ny...ref=middleeast

With all do respect to Judaism, isn't this one of those really absurd beliefs right up there with burying a saint's statue in your yard for good luck?

Problem: Lift isn't kosher.
Solution: Use the stairs.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I am not sure, the prohibition against certain things is based upon the sabbath law, not doing 'work' or in the case of the light switch 'not kindling a fire'.

But all I can say is, who cares? If they want to use the elevator , that is their issue.

I would hate that myself, the elevator stopping at every floor.

All night and day. You can't have the elevator need to be summoned by a button after all.

It is not the level of superstition that gets me, it is how legalistic and lawyerly the superstition is. There is a prohibition and then you try to weasel around it.

[volatile]

The kosher elevators and the Sabbath ovens (and, for that matter, Orthodox women covering their hair with... wigs) seem like the exploitation of loopholes to me, y'know.

It seems really strange that someone would be observant enough to follow the letter of the law, but not observant to follow the spirit of the law, which such technological work-arounds seem to violate quite egregiously.

Some of the text of the linked article seem to suggest entirely that - Rabbinical councils having detailed arguments not about the spirit of the law, but whether or not the letter can or cannot be circumvented by some novel use of technology.

[volatile]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

All night and day. You can't have the elevator need to be summoned by a button after all.

It is not the level of superstition that gets me, it is how legalistic and lawyerly the superstition is. There is a prohibition and then you try to weasel around it.

Spooky! You wrote that whilst I was composing my response. I agree entirely.

The wearing of wigs by orthodox women is the textbook example - God said I had to cover my hair... but he didn't say I couldn't cover it *with more hair*. Pow!

[Southwind17]

Originally Posted by volatile

The kosher elevators and the Sabbath ovens (and, for that matter, Orthodox women covering their hair with... wigs) seem like the exploitation of loopholes to me, y'know.

It seems really strange that someone would be observant enough to follow the letter of the law, but not observant to follow the spirit of the law, which such technological work-arounds seem to violate quite egregiously.

Some of the text of the linked article seem to suggest entirely that - Rabbinical councils having detailed arguments not about the spirit of the law, but whether or not the letter can or cannot be circumvented by some novel use of technology.

It's not just Jews though, is it. Probably all religions.
During the holy month of Ramadan, for example, in the Middle East (well certainly in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, at least) locals start work later and finish earlier than normal, apparently to allow more/longer rest periods to compensate for a lack of energy due to not eating between sunrise and sunset. The locals' working "day" typically becomes 10.00 to 14.00. Oh - forgot to mention: eating between sunrise and sunset is only illegal in public places. Deduce from that what you will!

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by seayakin

This is definitely a live and let live kind of issue. I just find some of these extremes kind of comical.

As long as you are happy to have the elevator running and stopping at all floors for 24 hours a week.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Hux

A rabbi was asked why Jews undertook all these observances because they obviously made life so difficult. He said it was because these observances were so difficult that they were worth doing.

This makes sense, the problem is when they try to get around the difficulties imposed by their own rules by looking for legalistic shortcuts that I find it strange.

Either accept that you are doing something to make your life difficult or don't do it. Trying to work around the difficulty is what I just do not understand.