NLP? - I wonder if you guys can help me with what I'm looking for.

[Pedro De Mello]

Hi there!

I'm an acting student and one of the things that is most stressed in my Voice classes is this: "It's not the words that matter, but the intention you give to them".

There are litteraly hundreds of ways you can say the same word and still attach to it a completely different intention (a.k.a. Sub-Text). It depends, for example, on the inflection or the rhythmicity used.
For instance, the word "Hello". You can simply say "Hello" to someone and still it might mean "Hello (I'm so glad to see you)", "Hello (Didn't notice you were there)", "Hello (I don't recall who you are), "Hello (So, I heard you went home with Alice last night, you've got to tell me everything)". Well, you get the picture...

So, my question is: what is the field of science that I must study in order to better understand this nuances of language? And I don't mean just in a formal way but also in a way that covers the psychological aspects or the emotional responses to a certain discourse. Is it Linguistics? Neuro-linguistics?

The thing is: I'm a full-blown skeptic (no god, no astrology, no dowsing, no homeopathy, no world peace for me...). And, in that same bunch, I like to include NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming), the so much rabbled techniques of Derren Brown and his alikes. For some reason, I just don't buy into anything that promises me all the money, all the power, all the girls - I automatically label it as a scam or a hoax. But, (this is the point of the post), in my daily life, I sometimes like to "play" with words (especially when asking questions) and, somehow, I feel(!!) that different ways of doing the same question always end up with the same answer.

For example, when someone walks inside my house and after that person is right settled on my sofa, I'll ask one version of the following questions:

"DO you want to drink something?"
or
"DON'T you want to drink something?"

Most of the times (and I mean 99,342% of the times...) when I ask the first version of the question people are more propense to accept a drink. However, when I ask them the second version they are more likely to say "No, thanks, I'm fine".
Now, of course this is not, in anyway, EVER, a true experiment and the confirmation bias on this case might certainly be off the roof. What puzzles me is that it happens A LOT, and a lot more when I'm only aware of how I made the question after the answer has been given to me. (Of course this might be applied to similiar circumstances, not necessarily when someone is sitting in my couch... otherwise, it would be the couch who had some psychic whatever-people-call-it-when-something-has-an-influence-on-your-mind abilities, wisch I'm conviced is not the case...)

And I think: are the words DO and DON'T really applying any weight in the decision or is it just me finding a cause-effect relation that doesn't exist?
Because, it is a drink or a cigarrette or something small like that I'm offering... If some hot brunette asked me to go home with her I'm not sure to what extent I'd be influenced by her asking "DO you want to come home with me?" or "DON'T you want to come home with me?".

Is this making any sense to any of you, guys? If it is, I would just like to know, aside from NLP-Bullcrap, is there any serious, reliable, scientific field that works with this nuances of language? As an actor, I'm very keen on the teaching of Sandy Meisner, who basically says (what we all know...) that most human behaviour, such as impulses, is always a reflection of the other person one is with and the surroundings.

Like "you might think you're doing something because you want to do something but actually the reason you want to do that something is something you are not aware of". And let's not start a determinism/free-will debate over here. For the SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT, let's assume it is determinism for the win. Or not... if you want to go off-topic and still feel like you need to go over here to backup your statements.

Because... this makes perfect sense for someone that studies Body Language (I'm no expert and, even if I was, I wouldn't shout it...) and understands concepts like Mirroring.
I'm not very familiar with Persuasion techniques. If there is something I should look up for related with that subject please let me know. Something a detective would use to make a burglar confess a crime...

OK, I guess the post is pretty big already and that I have rambled a little bit but you guys get the point. Any mispelling, don't take them harsh, English is not my first language. And this is my first post. So... be gentle.

[Katopale]

How do you intend to employ this as an actor?

How far along are you in your training?

I hope you don't mind me asking.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by The Buddha

Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world.

Apropos of nothing.

[Tiktaalik]

"Wants pawn term, dare worsted ladle gull, hoe lift wetter murder honor etch offer lodge, dock, florist. Disk ladle gull orphan worry putty ladle rat hut, an rat cluck, infer disk raisin, pimple colder Ladle Rat Rotten Hut." - as done by Victor Borge

"Anguish" - as created by William & Mary college, to teach students that the nuances (inflections) of words, as you put it, are as important as the words themselves, sometimes...

[Senex]

The title of your thread leads one to believe you wish to have a question answered. However when one reads your post your question is muddled. If you are looking for help in acting class this isn't an acting class website. If you want an opinion about NLP I'll give you the conventional wisdom of this site and say it's woo. If you want to learn about persuasion techniques I'll recommend Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. He wrote for the purpose of protecting his readers against pursuasion techniques but I bet you can reverse engineer his book and use it to manipulate, if that's what you want

Quote:

Because, it is a drink or a cigarrette or something small like that I'm offering... If some hot brunette asked me to go home with her I'm not sure to what extent I'd be influenced by her asking "DO you want to come home with me?" or "DON'T you want to come home with me?".

I just wish I had a dime for every time I faced this conundrum

[Katopale]

Originally Posted by Senex

The title of your thread leads one to believe you wish to have a question answered. However when one reads your post your question is muddled. If you are looking for help in acting class this isn't an acting class website. If you want an opinion about NLP I'll give you the conventional wisdom of this site and say it's woo. If you want to learn about persuasion techniques I'll recommend Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. He wrote for the purpose of protecting his readers against pursuasion techniques but I bet you can reverse engineer his book and use it to manipulate, if that's what you want



I just wish I had a dime for every time I faced this conundrum

Bolding mine.

True but there is a "History, Literature, and the Arts" forum as well as an "Education" forum. And there is plenty of room for skepticism in actor training. The Alexander Technique, rolfing, EST training, for example have been employed by very respectable graduate training programs.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Katopale

True but there is a "History, Literature, and the Arts" forum as well as an "Education" forum. And there is plenty of room for skepticism in actor training. The Alexander Technique, rolfing, EST training, for example have been employed by very respectable graduate training programs.

You explain the Alexander technique, Rolfing and ESTand I will try and mock the guy who is explaining the truthful stuff you are explaing. Let's see how this plays out

[JFrankA]

Originally Posted by Senex

The title of your thread leads one to believe you wish to have a question answered. However when one reads your post your question is muddled. If you are looking for help in acting class this isn't an acting class website. If you want an opinion about NLP I'll give you the conventional wisdom of this site and say it's woo. If you want to learn about persuasion techniques I'll recommend Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. He wrote for the purpose of protecting his readers against pursuasion techniques but I bet you can reverse engineer his book and use it to manipulate, if that's what you want



I just wish I had a dime for every time I faced this conundrum

Sorry, I have to say it:

Here we go again.....kinda.


I think that if you are going to study this strictly for acting, then I would guess that you might over thinking this whole thing. If you are going to perform stage magic or something similar, then you are asking the right question.

So my question is this: is this interest for more than just acting from a script?

[Katopale]

Originally Posted by Senex

You explain the Alexander technique, Rolfing and ESTand I will try and mock the guy who is explaining the truthful stuff you are explaing. Let's see how this plays out

Okay, but can we set the scene in a bus station? Oh...and my character is terminal.

[Professor Yaffle]

Its not the best wikipedia article I've read, but this mightlead you to some areas of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Katopale

Okay, but can we set the scene in a bus station? Oh...and my character is terminal.

Oh.... and my character has an attractive young woman over his knee.

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

Its not the best wikipedia article I've read, but this mightlead you to some areas of interest:

Your place to click doesn't bring to an interesting place. You might have saved me-- but you didn't.

Nice to see you again JFrankA

[Pedro De Mello]

Thanks for answering, guys.

Well, I DO NOT intend to use this solely for acting classes. I only did a reference to my acting classes because it was there that I realized that words, the formal structure of words, are not the most important thing when we are communicating and I gave the example of the word "Hello". This is why it is easier to lie when you write than when you talk, because when we talk a great deal of that same interaction happens on a non-verbal, non-linear realm - not transmissible through text. So, if you ask me if I need this to acting classes, I'll just say: maybe yes, maybe not. Most probably not.

If I want to learn how to ride a horse, how to "read" Tarot (even if I know it is utterly woo, I wouldn't deny if some one wanted to teach me how to do it), how to cook, how to dance the Tango or how to climb a mountain, it might and WILL be useful to me as an actor, even if I never have to do it. But of course, many of you might ask me: if you're not gonna use it, why bothering learning about it? Well, there's this thing they invented a few years ago, called Curiosity.

To be honest and this has been a major problem for me, I'm aware that acting is sometimes filled with energy and chi/yang/buddah/non-scientific methogs (like the ones Katopale mentioned, for example: The Alexander Technique, it certainly feels good but I don't know if it does good...) and I have had some SERIOUS problems with one of my teachers because her classes revolved around invisible energies and forces and whatever and then I had to take up with her and the majority of my classmates shouting "You have to have an open-mind" and so on and so on... I guess you guys know what I'm talking about. And if anyone in here is taking Acting classes, certainly knows what I'm talking about.

Professor Yaffle, thanks a lot for your link. Anything that deals with human interaction is what I'm looking for and Framing has a lot do with it. It is a nice start. Senex, I'll look up for Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. It seems interesting.

[JFrankA]

Originally Posted by Pedro De Mello

Thanks for answering, guys.

Well, I DO NOT intend to use this solely for acting classes. I only did a reference to my acting classes because it was there that I realized that words, the formal structure of words, are not the most important thing when we are communicating and I gave the example of the word "Hello". This is why it is easier to lie when you write than when you talk, because when we talk a great deal of that same interaction happens on a non-verbal, non-linear realm - not transmissible through text. So, if you ask me if I need this to acting classes, I'll just say: maybe yes, maybe not. Most probably not.

If I want to learn how to ride a horse, how to "read" Tarot (even if I know it is utterly woo, I wouldn't deny if some one wanted to teach me how to do it), how to cook, how to dance the Tango or how to climb a mountain, it might and WILL be useful to me as an actor, even if I never have to do it. But of course, many of you might ask me: if you're not gonna use it, why bothering learning about it? Well, there's this thing they invented a few years ago, called Curiosity.

To be honest and this has been a major problem for me, I'm aware that acting is sometimes filled with energy and chi/yang/buddah/non-scientific methogs (like the ones Katopale mentioned, for example: The Alexander Technique, it certainly feels good but I don't know if it does good...) and I have had some SERIOUS problems with one of my teachers because her classes revolved around invisible energies and forces and whatever and then I had to take up with her and the majority of my classmates shouting "You have to have an open-mind" and so on and so on... I guess you guys know what I'm talking about. And if anyone in here is taking Acting classes, certainly knows what I'm talking about.

Professor Yaffle, thanks a lot for your link. Anything that deals with human interaction is what I'm looking for and Framing has a lot do with it. It is a nice start. Senex, I'll look up for Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. It seems interesting.

Sorry if I came off as being...pompous. It wasn't what I meant. I do understand where you're coming from because I did study acting in college.

As to what you're talking about in your original OP, I would still recommend you take some basic Psychology and Sociology courses, if you haven't already. Then delve into Mentalism a little. Books by Banachek, Derren Brown would help, specifically "Psychological Subtleties" and "Tricks of the Mind". (I know, I know. But I really liked Derren's book, and I think it has a lot of information in it).

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Pedro De Mello

Hi there!

I'm an acting student and one of the things that is most stressed in my Voice classes is this: "It's not the words that matter, but the intention you give to them".

Can I try again? Of course I can because you can't reply in real time.

I didn't look half bad when I was 17 but I was painfully shy. If a very pretty girl would approach me and speak to me I would answer, "Hubba mumble bubba hello."

This never worked although my intentions were clear (at least to me). It was my words that failed me. Didn't your voice guy ever read Cyrano de Bergerac. This book should be required reading for anyone who wants to teach and be the voice guy. Words matter.

Having said that I'll admit I have now gotten past that and am the word expert and help dozens of my divorced buddies with their internet relationships... "Aren't you the naughty girl," "If I gave you a sexy negligee, would there be anything in it for me?" "What do you like for breakfast?" "Why don't you surprise your roommate and not come home tonight?"...

This stuff is gold. I'm now the modern day Cyrano (and let's admit it - standards have slipped in the last few hundred years).

Quote:

So, my question is: what is the field of science that I must study in order to better understand this nuances of language? And I don't mean just in a formal way but also in a way that covers the psychological aspects or the emotional responses to a certain discourse. Is it Linguistics? Neuro-linguistics?

You're in luck. I just started "Senexstudy." It's right up her alley And less expensive if you call my 800 number in the next 20 minutes or you will pay full price.

Quote:

JFrankA says: Sorry if I came off as being...pompous.

Kind of self-generous, but go on...

Quote:

It wasn't what I meant. I do understand where you're coming from because I did study acting in college.

Full time?

Quote:

As to what you're talking about in your original OP, I would still recommend you take some basic Psychology and Sociology courses, if you haven't already. Then delve into Mentalism a little. Books by Banachek, Derren Brown would help, specifically "Psychological Subtleties" and "Tricks of the Mind". (I know, I know. But I really liked Derren's book, and I think it has a lot of information in it).

Yes, those are good, and also many links provided by this very website.

[Pedro De Mello]

Originally Posted by JFrankA

Sorry if I came off as being...pompous. It wasn't what I meant. I do understand where you're coming from because I did study acting in college.

As to what you're talking about in your original OP, I would still recommend you take some basic Psychology and Sociology courses, if you haven't already. Then delve into Mentalism a little. Books by Banachek, Derren Brown would help, specifically "Psychological Subtleties" and "Tricks of the Mind". (I know, I know. But I really liked Derren's book, and I think it has a lot of information in it).

Well, first of all, I am sorry that I took so much time to answer. No, you didn't seem pompous, maybe it was me who thought you were saying something like "you don't need this" kind of thing. Wisch obviously you're not. So, my apologies, I guess.

I have already ordered "Tricks of the mind" by Derren Brown but I am quite affraid of filling up my head with hokus-pokus. Is it really SAFE? :P
"Psychological Subtleties" was not available but I looked it up on Google and it seems very very good, thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll Amazon it.

Can I try again? Of course I can because you can't reply in real time.

I didn't look half bad when I was 17 but I was painfully shy. If a very pretty girl would approach me and speak to me I would answer, "Hubba mumble bubba hello."

This never worked although my intentions were clear (at least to me). It was my words that failed me. Didn't your voice guy ever read Cyrano de Bergerac. This book should be required reading for anyone who wants to teach and be the voice guy. Words matter.

Having said that I'll admit I have now gotten past that and am the word expert and help dozens of my divorced buddies with their internet relationships... "Aren't you the naughty girl," "If I gave you a sexy negligee, would there be anything in it for me?" "What do you like for breakfast?" "Why don't you surprise your roommate and not come home tonight?"...

Senex, I only know Cyrano de Bergerac from the movie with Gérard Depardieu, wisch I don't recall quite well apart from the big-nose thing. But you're referring to what book exacly?

And how the F(!) do I quote people? I know I'm being impetious and if I looked a little better I would see a big neon button saying "Quote people here" but I can't seem to find it anywhere... How fit does this make me in the evolutionary race?

I mean, quoting besides when I clicked "Quote" on the first time to answer FrankA.

[Arg9]

Pedro, my solution is more field research.

I'd just pull ANY movie out and analyze the dialog. Good actors, bad actors, good directors, bad directors. The different circumstances. Turn on the English subtitles, put it on mute, read the text and then listen to how they do it. Or even the script if you can find one that actually matches the movie.

Also, you could go grab dinner somewhere and listen to how people talk and react in the conversation. Sit close to a couple that look like they're in an argument and listen how sensitive to each other's tone they are. Write as much as you can down.

Hope that helps.

[JFrankA]

Originally Posted by Pedro De Mello

Well, first of all, I am sorry that I took so much time to answer. No, you didn't seem pompous, maybe it was me who thought you were saying something like "you don't need this" kind of thing. Wisch obviously you're not. So, my apologies, I guess.

I have already ordered "Tricks of the mind" by Derren Brown but I am quite affraid of filling up my head with hokus-pokus. Is it really SAFE? :P
"Psychological Subtleties" was not available but I looked it up on Google and it seems very very good, thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll Amazon it.

Quote:

Can I try again? Of course I can because you can't reply in real time.

I didn't look half bad when I was 17 but I was painfully shy. If a very pretty girl would approach me and speak to me I would answer, "Hubba mumble bubba hello."

This never worked although my intentions were clear (at least to me). It was my words that failed me. Didn't your voice guy ever read Cyrano de Bergerac. This book should be required reading for anyone who wants to teach and be the voice guy. Words matter.

Having said that I'll admit I have now gotten past that and am the word expert and help dozens of my divorced buddies with their internet relationships... "Aren't you the naughty girl," "If I gave you a sexy negligee, would there be anything in it for me?" "What do you like for breakfast?" "Why don't you surprise your roommate and not come home tonight?"...

Senex, I only know Cyrano de Bergerac from the movie with Gérard Depardieu, wisch I don't recall quite well apart from the big-nose thing. But you're referring to what book exacly?

And how the F(!) do I quote people? I know I'm being impetious and if I looked a little better I would see a big neon button saying "Quote people here" but I can't seem to find it anywhere... How fit does this make me in the evolutionary race?

I mean, quoting besides when I clicked "Quote" on the first time to answer FrankA.

The quote thing first: at the beginning of the part you want to put in the quote box, type [quote.] (without the period, I put that there because it would put this sentence in the quote box) and at the end type [/quote.] (again, without the period). As you see above, you can nest those commands inside each other.

As to Derren's book, rest assured he's a skeptic too. The NLP eye thing he describes is just an illustration and even he says that he's presenting it not as truth, but as an example of what NLP is.

Things like the memory techniques are real. I use them to do certain tricks and to remember what to buy when I go groceries.

You can find Psychological Subtleties on magic websites, such as here http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product.php?productid=8555

Also, Arg9 has a great point. Listening to natural conversation as a neutral party can teach you a lot.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Senex

You explain the Alexander technique, Rolfing and ESTand I will try and mock the guy who is explaining the truthful stuff you are explaing. Let's see how this plays out

From what I've seen and read, I wouldn't classify the Alexander technique with EST and Rolfing as woo.

[jakesteele]

Pedro De Mello;5208151]Hi there!

I'm an acting student and one of the things that is most stressed in my Voice classes is this: "It's not the words that matter, but the intention you give to them".

Quote:

There are litteraly hundreds of ways you can say the same word and still attach to it a completely different intention (a.k.a. Sub-Text). It depends, for example, on the inflection or the rhythmicity used.
For instance, the word "Hello". You can simply say "Hello" to someone and still it might mean "Hello (I'm so glad to see you)", "Hello (Didn't notice you were there)", "Hello (I don't recall who you are), "Hello (So, I heard you went home with Alice last night, you've got to tell me everything)". Well, you get the picture...

That reminds me of the movie Donnie Brasco where he's telling his partner about all the different things the phrase, "feget about it" means depending on vocal inflection, etc.

If you want to study that, find out what the classes are that politicians, trial lawyers and public speakers go through to produce just those kinds of effects.



So, my question is: what is the field of science that I must study in order to better understand this nuances of language? And I don't mean just in a formal way but also in a way that covers the psychological aspects or the emotional responses to a certain discourse. Is it Linguistics? Neuro-linguistics?

The thing is: I'm a full-blown skeptic (no god, no astrology, no dowsing, no homeopathy, no world peace for me...). And, in that same bunch, I like to include NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming), the so much rabbled techniques of Derren Brown and his alikes. For some reason, I just don't buy into anything that promises me all the money, all the power, all the girls - I automatically label it as a scam or a hoax. But, (this is the point of the post), in my daily life, I sometimes like to "play" with words (especially when asking questions) and, somehow, I feel(!!) that different ways of doing the same question always end up with the same answer.

For example, when someone walks inside my house and after that person is right settled on my sofa, I'll ask one version of the following questions:

"DO you want to drink something?"
or
"DON'T you want to drink something?"

Most of the times (and I mean 99,342% of the times...) when I ask the first version of the question people are more propense to accept a drink. However, when I ask them the second version they are more likely to say "No, thanks, I'm fine".
Now, of course this is not, in anyway, EVER, a true experiment and the confirmation bias on this case might certainly be off the roof. What puzzles me is that it happens A LOT, and a lot more when I'm only aware of how I made the question after the answer has been given to me. (Of course this might be applied to similiar circumstances, not necessarily when someone is sitting in my couch... otherwise, it would be the couch who had some psychic whatever-people-call-it-when-something-has-an-influence-on-your-mind abilities, wisch I'm conviced is not the case...)

And I think: are the words DO and DON'T really applying any weight in the decision or is it just me finding a cause-effect relation that doesn't exist?
Because, it is a drink or a cigarrette or something small like that I'm offering... If some hot brunette asked me to go home with her I'm not sure to what extent I'd be influenced by her asking "DO you want to come home with me?" or "DON'T you want to come home with me?".

Is this making any sense to any of you, guys? If it is, I would just like to know, aside from NLP-Bullcrap, is there any serious, reliable, scientific field that works with this nuances of language? As an actor, I'm very keen on the teaching of Sandy Meisner, who basically says (what we all know...) that most human behaviour, such as impulses, is always a reflection of the other person one is with and the surroundings.

Like "you might think you're doing something because you want to do something but actually the reason you want to do that something is something you are not aware of". And let's not start a determinism/free-will debate over here. For the SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT, let's assume it is determinism for the win. Or not... if you want to go off-topic and still feel like you need to go over here to backup your statements.

Because... this makes perfect sense for someone that studies Body Language (I'm no expert and, even if I was, I wouldn't shout it...) and understands concepts like Mirroring.
I'm not very familiar with Persuasion techniques. If there is something I should look up for related with that subject please let me know. Something a detective would use to make a burglar confess a crime...

OK, I guess the post is pretty big already and that I have rambled a little bit but you guys get the point. Any mispelling, don't take them harsh, English is not my first language. And this is my first post. So... be gentle. [/quote]

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

From what I've seen and read, I wouldn't classify the Alexander technique with EST and Rolfing as woo.

I agree with that. From what I understand, the AT is used in acting classes and I've been rolfed and had great benefits from it.

[godless dave]

If you're really interested, I'd suggest studying linguistics, particularly those areas that deal with semantics and non-verbal communication. I don't know how much it would help your acting, though. For acting, you would probably be better off just observing other people communication.