first post and word of thanks from former fundie

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 01:53 PM

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you and introduce myself. I grew up in a strict fundamentalist home, went to Christian private school from K-graduate school, did mission work in Africa, and received an M.Div from Oral Roberts University. I have seen many of the "faith" ministries up close and personal. I started losing faith in the Bible god at the end of my undergrad program in Biblical Studies where "the Bible is infallible" gets proven quite otherwise very quickly. By the end of seminary, I had lost complete faith in the OT god. As I am opposed to child rape, torture, and murder (among a great many other things the OT god commanded), I came to the realization that if this violent war god was really the creator, we were all screwed. Such a god cannot be pleased. And pretending like he "loves" me and I "love" him was just a lie. Living forever praising such a beast would be hell, not heaven. I came to the realization that the "good news" was really "bad news" and that the claims of Christianity are largely non-sensical. This took many years of patient deconstructing by professors and kind non believers.

Now to the word of thanks and encouragement. I know many of you get frustrated by believers who can't seem to see what you see and you might wonder why you should bother even discussing religion with someone who seems arrogant, blind, and intolerant of your views.

I am here to say that it was the patience of many kind non believers like many of you on this very site that helped me to escape. It is extremely difficult to escape such heavy, fearful brainwashing from birth. The arrogance of many believers masks deeply held fear and insecurity. Changing your worldview is a difficult and painful experience. I believe Bill Maher when he says religion warps thinking. It is very true. Blind obedient faith is valued. Thinking for one's self is seen almost as evil if it differs from the party line. Friends you thought would be there for life suddenly cannot handle the new questions and decide that satan has taken you over. So they leave without a word. It really is a nasty experience. I realized that in the Christian world view, free will is talked about and valued but no one really has it. What good is free will if you are punished for all eternity for going against what "god wants." If I had free will, why then was I always praying to know what god's will was? And why was it so hard to hear from god? So god gave me a brain that knows how to evaluate information but really wants me to be a robot for Jesus? Why was believing the right things more important that being the right person?

Many of you that take your time to patiently dialogue with believers are having an impact. You might not see it immediately or ever. But be encouraged. I know it is easy to write people off as blind, arrogant idiots. But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free. If you respond kindly to their harshness, your words have so much more impact.

I know what it is like to be deeply into darkness that everyone around you calls "light." I was as deeply into fundasmentalism as one could get- from birth. And yet now I am very thankful to be free. And I just wanted to express my gratitude on this forum.

I see my former friends suffering greatly. I know the way out of the woods but they are not yet ready to follow me out. Hopefully one day.

Peace,

gambling_cruiser · 15th October 2009, 02:15 PM

Welcome to the forum ORUgrad!
I'm glad you are feeling better now.
We are all humans with limited patience, limited frustration tolerance.
Some posters will reveal our limitations and get ridiculed, mocked and so on.
But if we "meet" someone who is willing to discuss instead of preaching, then sometimes something beautiful and awsome might occur. While we may disagree about things, something like friendship and understanding is growing.
More often posters of the kind anyone knows, but will not named now, are the object of our frustration that is rising out of their failing to think critically.

Jontg · 15th October 2009, 02:22 PM

...
[jock]
*awkward man-hug* Welcome home, dude.
[/jock]

Third Eye Open · 15th October 2009, 02:33 PM

congrats, and welcome to the forum!

Evolved Wookie · 15th October 2009, 02:37 PM

I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I'm delighted you chose the red pill. Welcome to the party - the view's lovely

Hux · 15th October 2009, 03:20 PM

Speaking as a guy who knows several ex fundies, I can imagine the joy you must be feeling at your enlightenment. One testimony from yourself is worth more than all the berating we gove those who refuse to think critically.

We are not in the business of converting people but it is really nice when someone comes to reason by their own lights.

May I ask, did you have any real views on Hell? Did it frighten you? I ask because my exfundie mates tell me Hell was once an issue that scared them to death. When they let that one go, it became a lot easier.

Welcome. And we can only hope that certain contributors here might take note of your experience and perhaps learn something about themselves.

Vic Vega · 15th October 2009, 04:13 PM

Great post. I can't wait to see what you write in some of the threads in the Religion forum. I hope you're active there.

Welcome.

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part, however:

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free.

If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not.

Darth Rotor · 15th October 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Luke 1:10:Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth

So it is on JREF forums, the rejoicing when a Christian discards his faith.

Funny parallel, that.

Cynic · 15th October 2009, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Vic Vega

If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not.

I'm sure it's been put more eloquently, but to want to be free, one must first understand that they are prisoners.

Welcome aboard, ORUgrad. While this isn't an atheist forum per se, it does seem to function as one more often than not. I think you'll find that the sorts of people who gravitate toward sites such as this tend to share a common, if far less extreme, background as yours. Well, the Americans here anyway. Whenever I start thinking that all the discussion in the world with believers will never have any impact, I like to remind myself that for a large percentage of atheists, our views can be attributed to the odd thought someone planted into our heads that we just couldn't shake. I hope you're prepared for the idea that however permanent your newfound outlook feels to you, it's going to keep on evolving for the rest of your life.

sackett · 15th October 2009, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

So it is on JREF forums, the rejoicing when a Christian discards his faith.

Funny parallel, that.

How close a parallel, though? After all, we have no reason to believe in heaven or angels, or in sin and repentance. The biblical passage is at best a figure of speech that tries to express the writer's state of mind; a deluded writer, as far gone in religionism as ORUgrad once was, but not, as far as we know, as capable of rescuing himself.

But there really is a JREF forum, and some of us really are glad if not exactly rejoiced that a literate and thinking person has freed himself from superstition.

ORUgrad now walks in the light of day -- and in the dark of night, using his own wits to get through life. That makes me glad, and I'll shake his hand and say Well done! while recognizing that his path is not necessarily an easier one now.

Darth, old rotor, I think you're still down there among the believers. Right? I wonder when you'll haul yourself up and earn a Well done!

Norm Breyfogle · 15th October 2009, 05:20 PM

ORUgrad, I salute you. I also went through a nearly identical transformation,many years ago. I wrote about it in my "This I Believe" essay:

My family moved around a lot when I was a child, and I think I latched onto Christianity for a sense of stability when the uncertainties increased in my teens. But, I’d always been seeking; Christianity was just one very big part of it for about four years.

By the time I reached age eighteen, the accumulation of my "age of reason" philosophical studies had opened my mind to the point where I had a kind of crisis and decided to let go of my childhood visions of God. I remember the exact day it happened. I was praying for the old religious passion to return to me but it wouldn't; my selfish and childish psychological motives were too obvious. So, I said goodbye to the literalistic God, asking with honest intention that he prove himself to me reasonably if he existed, and, in some deep corner of my being, it seemed he smiled lovingly and even approvingly at me as he faded away. I felt I had his blessing.

In college I continued my western philosophical studies but became more interested in eastern mysticism, too, at first through Alan Watts' writings but then through many others' as well. I also read Carlos Castaneda's books about Mexican Indian sorcery, and I started experimenting with psychedelics.

One year later, I had another peak experience, without drugs. I'd just finished reading "The Tao of Physics," and I was visualizing the scale of reality down past the submicroscopic and into the quantum level when it hit me very viscerally: it was all me, it was all my own consciousness or just consciousness in general. Of course, I'd been reading about the unity of Being for years at that point and I'd already accepted it rationally as a concept, but in this experience it seemed to become a penultimately real perception for me. I remember walking around for days afterward as if I was on a cloud, and everything seemed to be glowing from within but with a non-physical light. It was so gentle and sweet, not a self-glorification at all but more like the exact opposite, as if I'd been freed of the need to impress myself or others with anything at all.

That was when I was twenty. Everything since then has pretty much been "chop wood, carry water," even the occasional peak experiences and dark nights of the soul.

The way is Love (reason and virtue being included as a matter of course). When Jesus was asked to sum up all scripture, all of the word of God, all of "the law," he said, "Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as yourself."

The apostle Paul said that miracles, prophesy, following the law, even faith and belief ... all of it is utterly worthless unless one has Love.

It's really that simple. The core of all religions and all philosophies can be said to agree on this.

Epok · 15th October 2009, 05:23 PM

Welcome aboard, dude.

Norm Breyfogle · 15th October 2009, 05:26 PM

Now, don't anyone get me wrong; I consider all "spiritual" statements (like the ones in my above essay) to be metaphors, not literalistic truths. Though I'm entirely non-religious, I can find value now in religion only by viewing it as poetic metaphor ... basically meaningful (and very often meaningless) fiction.

Safe-Keeper · 15th October 2009, 05:29 PM

I recommend Julia Sweeney's Letting go of God, available on YouTube in its entirety.

Also held in high regard is the short Flash animation Instruction Manual for Life, which can be viewed in the window below:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 05:39 PM

gambling_cruiser "We are all humans with limited patience, limited frustration tolerance."

I do agree and understand. When I was a fundie, I was quite arrogant, prideful, and really an @$$. I don't ever want to be that way again. I do, however, have a friend who is quite "in your face" in his faith. For him, I don't soften the message. I don't ridicule him personally but I will "let er rip" with things like "So the god who commanded the Israelites to torture and murder their own children should they become rebellious- not to mention commiting infanticide and child rape of other nations- is the god you worship on Sunday morning?" Or, "So really your world view is the same as a Muslim terrorist, you simply call your gods by different names." I'm not doing it to "score points" or be "right." I care about him and he needs a loving slap or two in the face. For others, I will take a more softball approach if they really have not been challenged with why they believe what they believe. Once I pressed too hard with a girl who was deeply into "The Secret" and the Law of Attraction. She wasn't arrogant about it and I should have taken a lighter approach instead of poking hole after hole into her world view. She began to cry and I felt like a real jerk. It took me years of painful realizations before I made the change of worldview. I just know how damaging a fundamentalist Christian worldview can be and how much of life can be wasted trying to follow someone elses idea of what I should be doing with my life.

Thanks for the well wishes from everyone. You ARE making a real difference. Think of all the people who read your posts who never post themselves. This is my first thread and I have been reading here for over five years!

Hux "May I ask, did you have any real views on Hell? Did it frighten you? I ask because my exfundie mates tell me Hell was once an issue that scared them to death. When they let that one go, it became a lot easier."

Yes. Hell was a real place of burning flame forever- so I was taught. The "hell stick" was waved around if you questioned too hard. There were so so many reasons why I left this "faith". The whole thing is just not worthy of an omnibenevolent God. Jesus was obviously the plan B. The god of the OT just acted like a raving lunatic. I am supposed to want to praise this thing forever? I like a lot of the teachings of Jesus but the control, manipulation, and mythology that has bloomed around them is so destructive.

Behind the spiritual sounding language are these core teachings.

1. You cannot trust yourself. You need someone else to tell you what to do, say and believe.

2. Your mind is your enemy. It is the realm of the evil one. And he will deceive you if you let him.

3. You should only do god's will. Your will is opposed to god's will.

4. You are cursed and deserve death because of Adam and the bad apple.

5. God's anger is so great with you that he required the murder of his son in order for him to forgive you.

6. This gift of Christ actually only works if you "accept it" and believe he was god's son. If you are not sure or don't know or think it might not be true, then God will still be raging angry at you and you wont be "saved" from his wrath.

This of course produces a crapload of fear.

Vic Vega wrote: "I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part, however:

Originally Posted by ORUgrad
But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free.

"If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not. "

What I meant is that I feel deep down, everyone wants to be free. Free from fear, death, God's wrath, whatever. In the midst of my arrogant fundamentalism, the real "me" was something different. Something not expressed. The religion was warping and destructive and my statements of faith were given to me by others. I believed them but the real "me" felt the anxienty and knew something was very wrong. I put on a good "game face". But the real me wanted answers. I really do believe all people know deep down that something is very wrong- whether they are conscious of it are not. I was as far gone as one could go. I have even worked the platform for Benny Hinn! And I got free. So I try not to identify what people say with who they are. I really want people to get free!

If any of you want to email me on here or privately, I would be happy to talk with you. I know intimately how many Christians think and would be happy to shed insights. Critical thinking is not taught in the Christian world I was in. It has to be learned painfully. We were literally told to "turn off your mind."

Peace

Fnord · 15th October 2009, 06:17 PM

Yes ... welcome to the fold ...

Cynic · 15th October 2009, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Yes ... welcome to the fold ...

Yeah, welcome to the... ... hey!

Dancing David · 15th October 2009, 06:48 PM

Welcome, there are times I doubt my chosen path and then I regain balance. Whatever path you take , be joyful.

Hux · 15th October 2009, 06:55 PM

Orugrad, thank you for the reply; yes it seemed a common theme amongst those who de- convert. It just struck me then as before that Christians are at the heart of it, in fear.

It is as if they have no mechanism for dealing with reality, as if Christianity is a palliative against the red tooth and claw of nature. They took a basic homespun philosophy and turned it into a celebration of the unsupported supernatural. Like all cults they shun any other explanation of the real world for their own fantasies. it's to your credit - and to anyone who tears themselves away from the mental strangulation of christianity - and religion of any sort.

grayman · 15th October 2009, 07:16 PM

Welcome to the forum Orugrad.

Your post reminded me of something I saw a few hours while flipping through the channels on TV (Not much else to do when the flu hits).

I found Peter Popoff doing his best to give you his Miracle Spring Water. Of course, if you can find it in your heart to send a donation to support his ministry, it would be appreciated.

Some people will never learn.

Hux · 15th October 2009, 07:22 PM

I can top that. There is a channel here with Icelandic (English speaking) Christians. It is a God channel. They are selling 'prayer keepers'. £500 will get you a prayer keeper for half an hour, £750 gets you one for a full hour. Imagine being able to synchronise your oprayers with your valuable time.

They are frigging egg timers. Do these people have no shame?

Olowkow · 15th October 2009, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hux

Orugrad, thank you for the reply; yes it seemed a common theme amongst those who de- convert. It just struck me then as before that Christians are at the heart of it, in fear.

It is as if they have no mechanism for dealing with reality, as if Christianity is a palliative against the red tooth and claw of nature. They took a basic homespun philosophy and turned it into a celebration of the unsupported supernatural. Like all cults they shun any other explanation of the real world for their own fantasies. it's to your credit - and to anyone who tears themselves away from the mental strangulation of christianity - and religion of any sort.

I could not have said it any better. I have been saying it is a basic "fear" that motivates the ultraconservative religious for a long time.

I am willing to believe, I guess, that ORUgrad is not a Trojan Horse, especially as compelling and articulate as he is. I found this, particularly moving:

Quote:

ORUgrad: Critical thinking is not taught in the Christian world I was in. It has to be learned painfully. We were literally told to "turn off your mind."

I couldn't live like that.

ETA: and welcome to ORUgrad. You have your work cut out for you, as you owe a lot to your peers to help them out of this morass that you have begun to escape. What you say here is actually incidental and unimportant as you are preaching to the choir, and I think you have a long way to go on your journey to personal freedom. Good luck.

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 07:56 PM

I know there are Christians who were raised differently than me and I don't mean to put all of them into the same box I was raised in. I think someone can follow the teachings of Jesus and use that as a framework for how to live and be perfectly happy. The problem I see is when someone believes that the OT god is really God! It is impossible to reconcile the attrocities commanded by him with the example of love shown by Jesus.

What strikes me is that Jesus seemed to be concerned with how people acted to themselves and to others. He was much less concerned with what people believed about him personally. Yet, you would think a Christian Creed would be full of the benevolent sayings of Jesus. Instead, they are filled with doctrinal decrees about the nature of God and Jesus. Things that we could not possibly know but are required to believe. I pointed this out to an Orthodox friend of mine and said the Trinity is a doctrine that is impossible to conceptualize without falling into a heresy. And that the Creed itself is hopelessly confusing. They teach that Jesus has always existed with God, yet the Creed says Jesus was "begotten"- which means "to cause to exist."

I think the single biggest mind warping belief (there are more) is that the god of the Old Testament is the God of the Universe. This is a life ruining belief. You either must ignore it and focus on Jesus, or embrace it and watch yourself turn into a bitter and angry zealot.

I don't consider myself an atheist at this point in my life. That is not to say I never will. I certainly do not believe the OT god is god and I don't believe in a Christian concept of god. I am becoming at peace with not knowing everything. And I endeavor not to believe things for which there is no evidence for. Coming from a background like mine, I still find little things I need to let go of. But it is fine because there is no angry lunatic waiting to punish me for screwing up. I would hope that my life would continue to be a place where little pieces of darkness are revealed for what they are so that those things can be rejected as well. And my heart is to shine the light for a few others who are following where I have been. It isn't a nice place to be.

It is so nice to do things because I want to do them and not because I will be punished if I don't. It is so nice to trust myself instead of agonizing over god's mysterious will. It truly is freedom. And if there is a heaven, and if there are angels, I think they ARE rejoicing that I have found the true message of Jesus- that LOVE is god.

peace

D'rok · 15th October 2009, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

I know there are Christians who were raised differently than me and I don't mean to put all of them into the same box I was raised in. I think someone can follow the teachings of Jesus and use that as a framework for how to live and be perfectly happy. The problem I see is when someone believes that the OT god is really God! It is impossible to reconcile the attrocities commanded by him with the example of love shown by Jesus.

What strikes me is that Jesus seemed to be concerned with how people acted to themselves and to others. He was much less concerned with what people believed about him personally. Yet, you would think a Christian Creed would be full of the benevolent sayings of Jesus. Instead, they are filled with doctrinal decrees about the nature of God and Jesus. Things that we could not possibly know but are required to believe. I pointed this out to an Orthodox friend of mine and said the Trinity is a doctrine that is impossible to conceptualize without falling into a heresy. And that the Creed itself is hopelessly confusing. They teach that Jesus has always existed with God, yet the Creed says Jesus was "begotten"- which means "to cause to exist."

I think the single biggest mind warping belief (there are more) is that the god of the Old Testament is the God of the Universe. This is a life ruining belief. You either must ignore it and focus on Jesus, or embrace it and watch yourself turn into a bitter and angry zealot.

I don't consider myself an atheist at this point in my life. That is not to say I never will. I certainly do not believe the OT god is god and I don't believe in a Christian concept of god. I am becoming at peace with not knowing everything. And I endeavor not to believe things for which there is no evidence for. Coming from a background like mine, I still find little things I need to let go of. But it is fine because there is no angry lunatic waiting to punish me for screwing up. I would hope that my life would continue to be a place where little pieces of darkness are revealed for what they are so that those things can be rejected as well. And my heart is to shine the light for a few others who are following where I have been. It isn't a nice place to be.

It is so nice to do things because I want to do them and not because I will be punished if I don't. It is so nice to trust myself instead of agonizing over god's mysterious will. It truly is freedom. And if there is a heaven, and if there are angels, I think they ARE rejoicing that I have found the true message of Jesus- that LOVE is god.

peace

This is a great post.

Dancing David · 15th October 2009, 08:16 PM

ORUgrad, while I have turned away from the faith of my childhood and now label myself as a pagan atheist, I still find much wisdom in some of the teachings of jesus, strange but true.

I just happen to find the same message many places now, even in the mundane life of a secular person.

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Olowkow

I could not have said it any better. I have been saying it is a basic "fear" that motivates the ultraconservative religious for a long time.

I am willing to believe, I guess, that ORUgrad is not a Trojan Horse, especially as compelling and articulate as he is. I found this, particularly moving:
I couldn't live like that.

ETA: and welcome to ORUgrad. You have your work cut out for you, as you owe a lot to your peers to help them out of this morass that you have escaped. What you say here is actually incidental and unimportant as you are preaching to the choir.

Yes! It is fear. They call it "love". But it is FEAR. Look at all the anger you will often get when their beliefs are challenged. Yes, I could not live like that anymore either. It is natural to think critically. It takes a LOT of effort to suppress the desire and ability to do it. It is a severe handicap and requires a LOT of mental abuse to keep someone from thinking for themselves. Even though the Bible says to love god with all your MIND- I suppose that means never questioning anything. So when you get frustrated with people on here who can't or wont think critically, remember it is like becoming angry that the one legged man can't run. They have to "grow" another leg first.

Actually the primary reason for my post here was in gratitude for all of you that take your time to answer those that seem beyond help and to say you ARE making a difference! That is important as you could be doing a lot more "productive" things with your time. Yes I am involved in other forums and am trying to be a real light in a lot of darkness. I have a big chin and try my best to remember where I came from so I treat hostility with grace. The ironic thing is that the Christians will RIP into each other over their particular interpretation of a Bible passage. They are as inflamatory with each other as they are here. My quest so far has been to get them to see that Jesus came to show people how to live peacefully with themselves and each other and NOT what they must believe about him personally. And that he taught not to judge at all yet GROW IN GRACE. I will often just ask questions about whatever topic they are discussing. Christianity is so full of holes and contradictions if you can just get people to try and articulate them for themselves, sometimes they will start to THINK!

I can relate to the Lucian character from the movie "Underworld: Rise of the Lycans." Here you are getting the hell beat out of you every day and you think your captors are great because they gave you "life". Then you wake up and realize you are a slave in chains. And "life" has no meaning as long as someone ELSE is defining what that meaning is for you.

But I would much rather hang out with Victor than Yahweh!

peace

Ethnikos · 15th October 2009, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

. . .and received an M.Div from Oral Roberts University. I have seen many of the "faith" ministries up close and personal.

Wow.
On the wikipedia page for this school, there is a list of notable graduates. Among those:

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Mania_Ministries

Ron Luce is the president and founder of Teen Mania Ministries. He and his wife Katie founded Teen Mania in Tulsa, Oklahoma in 1986. Luce has publicly condemned "purveyors of popular culture" as "the enemy," who according to Luce are "terrorists, virtue terrorists, that are destroying our kids... they're raping virgin teenage America on the sidewalk, and everybody's walking by and acting like everything's OK. And it's just not OK."

Welcome out of Babylon.
I would be afraid to go to a school like that.
Kind of scarry stuff.
More from Ron Luce:

Quote:

adopted a militaristic tone, with frequent use of words such as "battle," "enemy," "soldier," "foes" and "warfare," accompanied by the display of military imagery and, at one such event, the use of simulated weapons.

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 09:16 PM

Hux and Grayman, I could tell you stories until your eyes popped out about the craziness I have witnessed in being forced to attend ORU chapel and every "revival" meeting on campus. The ironic thing is that the Seminary faculty think the Roberts administration (which was recently thrown out) are completely off base. For most of my friends, Seminary was a traumatizing experience. One of my closest friends entered ministry but is fraught with deep doubts and insecurity. Another friend recognized the harshness and shocking nature of the OT, yet is resigned that that is the way it is and became a hard, judgemental, humorless zealot who refused to speak to me for deconverting. He used to be one of the funniest guys I knew. We were in each other's weddings. Another friend sees the craziness of the OT but can't deal with it and is greatly depressed. I wish we could have all just said "Ok guys, so instead of believing that God is a genocidal lunatic, how about we just believe that Jesus came to show us that love is really God, and that the OT is JEwish mythology and just call it a day?" Would have saved us all a great deal of pain.

Cynic · 15th October 2009, 09:22 PM

Taken by by itself, the NT isn't all sweetness and light either, besides being rather inconsistent.

Ethnikos · 15th October 2009, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Behind the spiritual sounding language are these core teachings.

Who needs Satan, with this sort of belief?
I think the key word for this is: Pentecostal.
I'm no expert on it but from some meetings I have gone to with friends, and from having conversations with Pentecostal ministers, they seem to blame everything on the devil, and have been accused of personally being a devil, daring to even ask them where they get their beliefs from.

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 09:29 PM

Ethnikos, thankfully I did not go to undergrad there. The Seminary professors did a good job of innoculating us to the mind rape that goes on in chapel and other places. I really feel for the undergrads there. They were taught a world view for four years in a tiny bubble that will absolutely collapse in the real world. That could be a good thing. Unfortunately, people don't make the jump to "God is really not this way" and then be happy for the revelation. They think God is really this way and there must be something wrong with me for my messed up life. God must not love me.

I will tell you a funny story that happened while I was there. A friend of mine was engaged to a wonderful girl in another state where he was from. She came down to visit him at school. One of the students saw him talking to her and when she was gone he came up to my friend and said, "Brother, I know you think that girl is going to be your wife. But God spoke to me and told me that he has someone else planned for you."

My friend looked at him without reacting at all, put a hand on the guy's shoulder and said, "Thank you so much for telling me that Brother! Would you mind telling God, the next time you talk to him, to MIND HIS OWN DAMN BUSINESS?"

Priceless!

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 09:36 PM

Cynic, yes you are right. I have noticed that if the Bible says something someone agrees with, it is quoted context free. And if it says something for which he or she disagrees, there will be a big discussion about "context." If the Bible were clear, there would not be thousands of denominations.

Ethnikos, yes. ORU is a charismatic/Pentecostal school. I actually saw Satan outside our chapel one day crying his little demon eyes out. I was so curious I went up to him and said "Wow! Satan! What are YOU crying about??" He said, "Those Christians blame me for EVERYTHING!"

haha.

Ethnikos · 15th October 2009, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

. . .Yet, you would think a Christian Creed would be full of the benevolent sayings of Jesus. Instead, they are filled with doctrinal decrees about the nature of God and Jesus. Things that we could not possibly know but are required to believe.

The Athanasian Creed?
That's a tool of enforcement, not a tool for learning.
They put in enough so that any type of actual thinking will put you in violation, and subject to being burned.

Ethnikos · 15th October 2009, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Ethnikos, thankfully I did not go to undergrad there.

I went one year to a Christian boarding academy when I was 16 and was struck by how none of the faculty seemed religious at all. The students were supposed to be, though. I found it rather disturbing and did not volunteer to go again.
Lucky for you, that you were exposed to this sort of, encouragement to insanity, only as long as you were.

Ethnikos · 15th October 2009, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

I think someone can follow the teachings of Jesus and use that as a framework for how to live and be perfectly happy.

And you decided to post on this forum. . . .why?
You might not find it too much fun, with that kind of attitude.
Well, thanks for stopping by.

UnrepentantSinner · 15th October 2009, 10:01 PM

Welcome ORUgrad. It took me a few minutes to interpret your user ID and I got a real kick out of it.

Originally Posted by sackett

{snip}Darth, old rotor, I think you're still down there among the believers. Right? I wonder when you'll haul yourself up and earn a Well done!

American Atheists is that a way ----> This is a skeptics forum, not an atheists forum and it's bad form to denigrate your fellow skeptic like that.

Ethnikos · 15th October 2009, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

I I think the single biggest mind warping belief (there are more) is that the god of the Old Testament is the God of the Universe. This is a life ruining belief. You either must ignore it and focus on Jesus, or embrace it and watch yourself turn into a bitter and angry zealot.

Don't think that there is some way to make a compromise.
It doesn't matter how many gods you stack up, one on top of the other, all the way to the sky. Whoever ends up on top is still responsible for the lowest god's actions. You can not say there is a better god somewhere that we just don't know about.

quixotecoyote · 15th October 2009, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Don't think that there is some way to make a compromise.
It doesn't matter how many gods you stack up, one on top of the other, all the way to the sky. Whoever ends up on top is still responsible for the lowest god's actions. You can not say there is a better god somewhere that we just don't know about.

Why not?

Once you open the door to any god, you can pretty much construct any mythology you want.

ORUgrad · 15th October 2009, 10:38 PM

Ethnikos, I was thinking of the Nicene Creed. And yes I do think that people can reject virgin births, raising from the dead, etc. but still follow the benevolent teachings of Jesus and strive to be a good person. The liberal Unitarians I know do this and are easy to talk to and kind without the "conversion" agenda. You might prefer them to be atheist. I just prefer them to be sane. Calling the OT god loving is clearly insane. When I read an OT passage to a Christian that talks about stoning a rebellious child until he dies and ask if that sounds like quality parental advice from an all knowing, loving creator, I either get blank stares or an angry response about "context". No matter what though, this will more often than not jump start the thinking process. It is a start anyway. So I suppose I said all that to say that if I can succeed only in getting some Christians to see that the OT god CANNOT BE GOD, I'm fine with them believing whatever they want to believe about the teachings of Jesus- as shedding this one belief will have a tremendous liberalizing effect- but more importantly- should bring some relief deep down.

peace

Cynic · 15th October 2009, 10:49 PM

I'm not sure there is any way to cherry pick truth. Wide swaths of Corrinthians should be ignored outright if you value women as your equals, for instances, and those books are among the most tame. After so many incidents of "well, I guess I'll ignore that part of the Jesus story...", I think you'll find that it's far more satisfying and honest to just come up with it on your own.

But this is what I meant when I said that you can look forward to your ideas continuing to evolve for the rest of your life. A stagnant mind is an inactive mind. I got out far, far earlier than you. In truth, I was never really "in", in that I never really believed in any gods. I was made to attend church and Sunday school (Presbyterian) until after I was confirmed (age 12). During most of that time that I remember, I tried really, really hard to believe, thinking there was something wrong with me that I didn't.

It got kind of comical at times. Years later reading The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy series there's this whole thing where Arthor Dent learns the secret to flying, which is to throw yourself to the ground and manage to get distracted at the last moment before impact. And in many senses, that's exactly the approach I tried to take. I remember several early Christmas mornings in my room with some sort of goofy religious candle (angels, etc) promising to "believe harder" this year, actively pretending to believe and hoping I could keep it up, like trying to maintain some "in the zone" feeling you get when you're doing well at Tetris or something and you're afraid to think for fear or falling out of it.

Anyway, I eventually gave up on that. The more I thought about it, the more I became obsessed with the idea of honestly and integrity. Over the years my thinking went from wishing I could believe, to thinking it's a nice idea but it's not true, to thinking it's a nice idea, but not very well thought out, to thinking it isn't such a nice idea at all, to, eventually, thinking it's pretty much a worst case scenario. A lot of people might liken it all to recovering from Stockholm Syndrome, and I'm hard-pressed to disagree with the analogy.

Anyway, you might not believe it now, but if you really keep on the path of skepticism, I expect you'll experience this for yourself. While merely retaining those bits of the bible you agree with isn't necessarily "cherry picking truth" in and of itself, you have to admit by now that part of the problem with the system that you're recovering from is that you've been conditioned to just accept things as good ideas. It's not as simple as cutting out the obviously bad things and cutting out the rationalizing. Everything has to be evaluated because what might seem like a perfectly reasonable thing to you now might not later on after a few choice notions break the spell of even those and make you see it in a different light.

Better, IMO, to chuck it all and start with what you know.

15th October 2009, 01:53 PM	#1
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	first post and word of thanks from former fundie Just wanted to say thanks to all of you and introduce myself. I grew up in a strict fundamentalist home, went to Christian private school from K-graduate school, did mission work in Africa, and received an M.Div from Oral Roberts University. I have seen many of the "faith" ministries up close and personal. I started losing faith in the Bible god at the end of my undergrad program in Biblical Studies where "the Bible is infallible" gets proven quite otherwise very quickly. By the end of seminary, I had lost complete faith in the OT god. As I am opposed to child rape, torture, and murder (among a great many other things the OT god commanded), I came to the realization that if this violent war god was really the creator, we were all screwed. Such a god cannot be pleased. And pretending like he "loves" me and I "love" him was just a lie. Living forever praising such a beast would be hell, not heaven. I came to the realization that the "good news" was really "bad news" and that the claims of Christianity are largely non-sensical. This took many years of patient deconstructing by professors and kind non believers. Now to the word of thanks and encouragement. I know many of you get frustrated by believers who can't seem to see what you see and you might wonder why you should bother even discussing religion with someone who seems arrogant, blind, and intolerant of your views. I am here to say that it was the patience of many kind non believers like many of you on this very site that helped me to escape. It is extremely difficult to escape such heavy, fearful brainwashing from birth. The arrogance of many believers masks deeply held fear and insecurity. Changing your worldview is a difficult and painful experience. I believe Bill Maher when he says religion warps thinking. It is very true. Blind obedient faith is valued. Thinking for one's self is seen almost as evil if it differs from the party line. Friends you thought would be there for life suddenly cannot handle the new questions and decide that satan has taken you over. So they leave without a word. It really is a nasty experience. I realized that in the Christian world view, free will is talked about and valued but no one really has it. What good is free will if you are punished for all eternity for going against what "god wants." If I had free will, why then was I always praying to know what god's will was? And why was it so hard to hear from god? So god gave me a brain that knows how to evaluate information but really wants me to be a robot for Jesus? Why was believing the right things more important that being the right person? Many of you that take your time to patiently dialogue with believers are having an impact. You might not see it immediately or ever. But be encouraged. I know it is easy to write people off as blind, arrogant idiots. But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free. If you respond kindly to their harshness, your words have so much more impact. I know what it is like to be deeply into darkness that everyone around you calls "light." I was as deeply into fundasmentalism as one could get- from birth. And yet now I am very thankful to be free. And I just wanted to express my gratitude on this forum. I see my former friends suffering greatly. I know the way out of the woods but they are not yet ready to follow me out. Hopefully one day. Peace,
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 02:15 PM	#2
gambling_cruiser Thinker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 233	Welcome to the forum ORUgrad! I'm glad you are feeling better now. We are all humans with limited patience, limited frustration tolerance. Some posters will reveal our limitations and get ridiculed, mocked and so on. But if we "meet" someone who is willing to discuss instead of preaching, then sometimes something beautiful and awsome might occur. While we may disagree about things, something like friendship and understanding is growing. More often posters of the kind anyone knows, but will not named now, are the object of our frustration that is rising out of their failing to think critically.
	Last edited by gambling_cruiser; 15th October 2009 at 02:16 PM. Reason: typo

15th October 2009, 02:22 PM	#3
Jontg The Bear Skeptic Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: A world without gods. Posts: 730	... [jock] awkward man-hug Welcome home, dude. [/jock]
	__________________ Okay, so far, Jontg is right, and everyone else is wrong. - Prometheus Free Trade, Free Culture, Free Will - Support the New World Order.

15th October 2009, 02:33 PM	#4
Third Eye Open Muse Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 893	congrats, and welcome to the forum!
	__________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."- Friedrich von Schiller "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson "We've got no FOOD, no JOBS...our pets HEADS ARE FALLING OFF!" - Lloyd Christmas

15th October 2009, 02:37 PM	#5
Evolved Wookie Thinker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Two feet to the left, in accordance with the theory of indeterminacy Posts: 198	I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I'm delighted you chose the red pill. Welcome to the party - the view's lovely
	__________________ "There is only one difference between a madman and me. I am not mad." - Salvador Dali

15th October 2009, 03:20 PM	#6
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749	Speaking as a guy who knows several ex fundies, I can imagine the joy you must be feeling at your enlightenment. One testimony from yourself is worth more than all the berating we gove those who refuse to think critically. We are not in the business of converting people but it is really nice when someone comes to reason by their own lights. May I ask, did you have any real views on Hell? Did it frighten you? I ask because my exfundie mates tell me Hell was once an issue that scared them to death. When they let that one go, it became a lot easier. Welcome. And we can only hope that certain contributors here might take note of your experience and perhaps learn something about themselves.
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749

15th October 2009, 04:13 PM	#7
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	Great post. I can't wait to see what you write in some of the threads in the Religion forum. I hope you're active there. Welcome. I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part, however: Originally Posted by ORUgrad But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free. If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not.
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

15th October 2009, 04:20 PM	#8
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 25,014	Quote: Luke 1:10:Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth So it is on JREF forums, the rejoicing when a Christian discards his faith. Funny parallel, that.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

15th October 2009, 04:38 PM	#9
Cynic Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 453	Originally Posted by Vic Vega If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not. I'm sure it's been put more eloquently, but to want to be free, one must first understand that they are prisoners. Welcome aboard, ORUgrad. While this isn't an atheist forum per se, it does seem to function as one more often than not. I think you'll find that the sorts of people who gravitate toward sites such as this tend to share a common, if far less extreme, background as yours. Well, the Americans here anyway. Whenever I start thinking that all the discussion in the world with believers will never have any impact, I like to remind myself that for a large percentage of atheists, our views can be attributed to the odd thought someone planted into our heads that we just couldn't shake. I hope you're prepared for the idea that however permanent your newfound outlook feels to you, it's going to keep on evolving for the rest of your life.
	__________________ Words have no power to impress the mind without the exquisite horror of their reality. -- Edgar Allen Poe

15th October 2009, 05:12 PM	#10
sackett Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 2,936	Like unto a flower, so is Man; he springeth up and is cut down Originally Posted by Darth Rotor So it is on JREF forums, the rejoicing when a Christian discards his faith. Funny parallel, that. How close a parallel, though? After all, we have no reason to believe in heaven or angels, or in sin and repentance. The biblical passage is at best a figure of speech that tries to express the writer's state of mind; a deluded writer, as far gone in religionism as ORUgrad once was, but not, as far as we know, as capable of rescuing himself. But there really is a JREF forum, and some of us really are glad if not exactly rejoiced that a literate and thinking person has freed himself from superstition. ORUgrad now walks in the light of day -- and in the dark of night, using his own wits to get through life. That makes me glad, and I'll shake his hand and say Well done! while recognizing that his path is not necessarily an easier one now. Darth, old rotor, I think you're still down there among the believers. Right? I wonder when you'll haul yourself up and earn a Well done!
	__________________ When guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

15th October 2009, 05:20 PM	#11
Norm Breyfogle Student Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 34	ORUgrad, I salute you. I also went through a nearly identical transformation,many years ago. I wrote about it in my "This I Believe" essay: My family moved around a lot when I was a child, and I think I latched onto Christianity for a sense of stability when the uncertainties increased in my teens. But, I’d always been seeking; Christianity was just one very big part of it for about four years. By the time I reached age eighteen, the accumulation of my "age of reason" philosophical studies had opened my mind to the point where I had a kind of crisis and decided to let go of my childhood visions of God. I remember the exact day it happened. I was praying for the old religious passion to return to me but it wouldn't; my selfish and childish psychological motives were too obvious. So, I said goodbye to the literalistic God, asking with honest intention that he prove himself to me reasonably if he existed, and, in some deep corner of my being, it seemed he smiled lovingly and even approvingly at me as he faded away. I felt I had his blessing. In college I continued my western philosophical studies but became more interested in eastern mysticism, too, at first through Alan Watts' writings but then through many others' as well. I also read Carlos Castaneda's books about Mexican Indian sorcery, and I started experimenting with psychedelics. One year later, I had another peak experience, without drugs. I'd just finished reading "The Tao of Physics," and I was visualizing the scale of reality down past the submicroscopic and into the quantum level when it hit me very viscerally: it was all me, it was all my own consciousness or just consciousness in general. Of course, I'd been reading about the unity of Being for years at that point and I'd already accepted it rationally as a concept, but in this experience it seemed to become a penultimately real perception for me. I remember walking around for days afterward as if I was on a cloud, and everything seemed to be glowing from within but with a non-physical light. It was so gentle and sweet, not a self-glorification at all but more like the exact opposite, as if I'd been freed of the need to impress myself or others with anything at all. That was when I was twenty. Everything since then has pretty much been "chop wood, carry water," even the occasional peak experiences and dark nights of the soul. The way is Love (reason and virtue being included as a matter of course). When Jesus was asked to sum up all scripture, all of the word of God, all of "the law," he said, "Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as yourself." The apostle Paul said that miracles, prophesy, following the law, even faith and belief ... all of it is utterly worthless unless one has Love. It's really that simple. The core of all religions and all philosophies can be said to agree on this.
Norm Breyfogle Student Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 34

15th October 2009, 05:23 PM	#12
Epok Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Birmingham, Al Posts: 172	Welcome aboard, dude.
	__________________ "The internet is a playground and I would not have it any other way." David Thorne

15th October 2009, 05:26 PM	#13
Norm Breyfogle Student Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 34	Now, don't anyone get me wrong; I consider all "spiritual" statements (like the ones in my above essay) to be metaphors, not literalistic truths. Though I'm entirely non-religious, I can find value now in religion only by viewing it as poetic metaphor ... basically meaningful (and very often meaningless) fiction.
Norm Breyfogle Student Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 34

15th October 2009, 05:39 PM	#15
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	gambling_cruiser "We are all humans with limited patience, limited frustration tolerance." I do agree and understand. When I was a fundie, I was quite arrogant, prideful, and really an @$$. I don't ever want to be that way again. I do, however, have a friend who is quite "in your face" in his faith. For him, I don't soften the message. I don't ridicule him personally but I will "let er rip" with things like "So the god who commanded the Israelites to torture and murder their own children should they become rebellious- not to mention commiting infanticide and child rape of other nations- is the god you worship on Sunday morning?" Or, "So really your world view is the same as a Muslim terrorist, you simply call your gods by different names." I'm not doing it to "score points" or be "right." I care about him and he needs a loving slap or two in the face. For others, I will take a more softball approach if they really have not been challenged with why they believe what they believe. Once I pressed too hard with a girl who was deeply into "The Secret" and the Law of Attraction. She wasn't arrogant about it and I should have taken a lighter approach instead of poking hole after hole into her world view. She began to cry and I felt like a real jerk. It took me years of painful realizations before I made the change of worldview. I just know how damaging a fundamentalist Christian worldview can be and how much of life can be wasted trying to follow someone elses idea of what I should be doing with my life. Thanks for the well wishes from everyone. You ARE making a real difference. Think of all the people who read your posts who never post themselves. This is my first thread and I have been reading here for over five years! Hux "May I ask, did you have any real views on Hell? Did it frighten you? I ask because my exfundie mates tell me Hell was once an issue that scared them to death. When they let that one go, it became a lot easier." Yes. Hell was a real place of burning flame forever- so I was taught. The "hell stick" was waved around if you questioned too hard. There were so so many reasons why I left this "faith". The whole thing is just not worthy of an omnibenevolent God. Jesus was obviously the plan B. The god of the OT just acted like a raving lunatic. I am supposed to want to praise this thing forever? I like a lot of the teachings of Jesus but the control, manipulation, and mythology that has bloomed around them is so destructive. Behind the spiritual sounding language are these core teachings. 1. You cannot trust yourself. You need someone else to tell you what to do, say and believe. 2. Your mind is your enemy. It is the realm of the evil one. And he will deceive you if you let him. 3. You should only do god's will. Your will is opposed to god's will. 4. You are cursed and deserve death because of Adam and the bad apple. 5. God's anger is so great with you that he required the murder of his son in order for him to forgive you. 6. This gift of Christ actually only works if you "accept it" and believe he was god's son. If you are not sure or don't know or think it might not be true, then God will still be raging angry at you and you wont be "saved" from his wrath. This of course produces a crapload of fear. Vic Vega wrote: "I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part, however: Originally Posted by ORUgrad But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free. "If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not. " What I meant is that I feel deep down, everyone wants to be free. Free from fear, death, God's wrath, whatever. In the midst of my arrogant fundamentalism, the real "me" was something different. Something not expressed. The religion was warping and destructive and my statements of faith were given to me by others. I believed them but the real "me" felt the anxienty and knew something was very wrong. I put on a good "game face". But the real me wanted answers. I really do believe all people know deep down that something is very wrong- whether they are conscious of it are not. I was as far gone as one could go. I have even worked the platform for Benny Hinn! And I got free. So I try not to identify what people say with who they are. I really want people to get free! If any of you want to email me on here or privately, I would be happy to talk with you. I know intimately how many Christians think and would be happy to shed insights. Critical thinking is not taught in the Christian world I was in. It has to be learned painfully. We were literally told to "turn off your mind." Peace
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 06:17 PM	#16
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pantopia Posts: 3,525	Yes ... welcome to the fold ...
	__________________ *"Few things are more disturbing than witnessing one person express both delusion and ignorance through one, last fatal act. Unless it is to witness others make a religion out of it."* -- Fnord; Explaining the Obvious to the Oblivious Since 1957.

15th October 2009, 06:33 PM	#17
Cynic Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 453	Originally Posted by Fnord Yes ... welcome to the fold ... Yeah, welcome to the... ... hey!
	__________________ Words have no power to impress the mind without the exquisite horror of their reality. -- Edgar Allen Poe

15th October 2009, 06:48 PM	#18
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 17,342	Welcome, there are times I doubt my chosen path and then I regain balance. Whatever path you take , be joyful.
	__________________ I’m not ready to make nice, I’m not ready to back down, I’m still mad as hell and I don’t have time to go round and round and round, It’s too late to make it right I probably wouldn’t if I could, ‘Cause I’m mad as hell, Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should- Dixie Chicks

15th October 2009, 06:55 PM	#19
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749	Orugrad, thank you for the reply; yes it seemed a common theme amongst those who de- convert. It just struck me then as before that Christians are at the heart of it, in fear. It is as if they have no mechanism for dealing with reality, as if Christianity is a palliative against the red tooth and claw of nature. They took a basic homespun philosophy and turned it into a celebration of the unsupported supernatural. Like all cults they shun any other explanation of the real world for their own fantasies. it's to your credit - and to anyone who tears themselves away from the mental strangulation of christianity - and religion of any sort.
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749

15th October 2009, 07:16 PM	#20
grayman Happy-go-lucky Heretic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Casa del Whacko Posts: 5,238	Welcome to the forum Orugrad. Your post reminded me of something I saw a few hours while flipping through the channels on TV (Not much else to do when the flu hits). I found Peter Popoff doing his best to give you his Miracle Spring Water. Of course, if you can find it in your heart to send a donation to support his ministry, it would be appreciated. Some people will never learn.
	__________________ Stupidity is a condition. Ignorance is a choice. - Wiley Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? - Groucho

15th October 2009, 07:22 PM	#21
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749	I can top that. There is a channel here with Icelandic (English speaking) Christians. It is a God channel. They are selling 'prayer keepers'. £500 will get you a prayer keeper for half an hour, £750 gets you one for a full hour. Imagine being able to synchronise your oprayers with your valuable time. They are frigging egg timers. Do these people have no shame?
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749

15th October 2009, 07:52 PM	#22
Olowkow Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,476	Originally Posted by Hux Orugrad, thank you for the reply; yes it seemed a common theme amongst those who de- convert. It just struck me then as before that Christians are at the heart of it, in fear. It is as if they have no mechanism for dealing with reality, as if Christianity is a palliative against the red tooth and claw of nature. They took a basic homespun philosophy and turned it into a celebration of the unsupported supernatural. Like all cults they shun any other explanation of the real world for their own fantasies. it's to your credit - and to anyone who tears themselves away from the mental strangulation of christianity - and religion of any sort. I could not have said it any better. I have been saying it is a basic "fear" that motivates the ultraconservative religious for a long time. I am willing to believe, I guess, that ORUgrad is not a Trojan Horse, especially as compelling and articulate as he is. I found this, particularly moving: Quote: ORUgrad: Critical thinking is not taught in the Christian world I was in. It has to be learned painfully. We were literally told to "turn off your mind." I couldn't live like that. ETA: and welcome to ORUgrad. You have your work cut out for you, as you owe a lot to your peers to help them out of this morass that you have begun to escape. What you say here is actually incidental and unimportant as you are preaching to the choir, and I think you have a long way to go on your journey to personal freedom. Good luck.
Olowkow Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,476	__________________ It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. --Albert Einstein Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare Last edited by Olowkow; 15th October 2009 at 08:04 PM.

15th October 2009, 07:56 PM	#23
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	I know there are Christians who were raised differently than me and I don't mean to put all of them into the same box I was raised in. I think someone can follow the teachings of Jesus and use that as a framework for how to live and be perfectly happy. The problem I see is when someone believes that the OT god is really God! It is impossible to reconcile the attrocities commanded by him with the example of love shown by Jesus. What strikes me is that Jesus seemed to be concerned with how people acted to themselves and to others. He was much less concerned with what people believed about him personally. Yet, you would think a Christian Creed would be full of the benevolent sayings of Jesus. Instead, they are filled with doctrinal decrees about the nature of God and Jesus. Things that we could not possibly know but are required to believe. I pointed this out to an Orthodox friend of mine and said the Trinity is a doctrine that is impossible to conceptualize without falling into a heresy. And that the Creed itself is hopelessly confusing. They teach that Jesus has always existed with God, yet the Creed says Jesus was "begotten"- which means "to cause to exist." I think the single biggest mind warping belief (there are more) is that the god of the Old Testament is the God of the Universe. This is a life ruining belief. You either must ignore it and focus on Jesus, or embrace it and watch yourself turn into a bitter and angry zealot. I don't consider myself an atheist at this point in my life. That is not to say I never will. I certainly do not believe the OT god is god and I don't believe in a Christian concept of god. I am becoming at peace with not knowing everything. And I endeavor not to believe things for which there is no evidence for. Coming from a background like mine, I still find little things I need to let go of. But it is fine because there is no angry lunatic waiting to punish me for screwing up. I would hope that my life would continue to be a place where little pieces of darkness are revealed for what they are so that those things can be rejected as well. And my heart is to shine the light for a few others who are following where I have been. It isn't a nice place to be. It is so nice to do things because I want to do them and not because I will be punished if I don't. It is so nice to trust myself instead of agonizing over god's mysterious will. It truly is freedom. And if there is a heaven, and if there are angels, I think they ARE rejoicing that I have found the true message of Jesus- that LOVE is god. peace
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 08:11 PM	#24
D'rok Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,885	Originally Posted by ORUgrad I know there are Christians who were raised differently than me and I don't mean to put all of them into the same box I was raised in. I think someone can follow the teachings of Jesus and use that as a framework for how to live and be perfectly happy. The problem I see is when someone believes that the OT god is really God! It is impossible to reconcile the attrocities commanded by him with the example of love shown by Jesus. What strikes me is that Jesus seemed to be concerned with how people acted to themselves and to others. He was much less concerned with what people believed about him personally. Yet, you would think a Christian Creed would be full of the benevolent sayings of Jesus. Instead, they are filled with doctrinal decrees about the nature of God and Jesus. Things that we could not possibly know but are required to believe. I pointed this out to an Orthodox friend of mine and said the Trinity is a doctrine that is impossible to conceptualize without falling into a heresy. And that the Creed itself is hopelessly confusing. They teach that Jesus has always existed with God, yet the Creed says Jesus was "begotten"- which means "to cause to exist." I think the single biggest mind warping belief (there are more) is that the god of the Old Testament is the God of the Universe. This is a life ruining belief. You either must ignore it and focus on Jesus, or embrace it and watch yourself turn into a bitter and angry zealot. I don't consider myself an atheist at this point in my life. That is not to say I never will. I certainly do not believe the OT god is god and I don't believe in a Christian concept of god. I am becoming at peace with not knowing everything. And I endeavor not to believe things for which there is no evidence for. Coming from a background like mine, I still find little things I need to let go of. But it is fine because there is no angry lunatic waiting to punish me for screwing up. I would hope that my life would continue to be a place where little pieces of darkness are revealed for what they are so that those things can be rejected as well. And my heart is to shine the light for a few others who are following where I have been. It isn't a nice place to be. It is so nice to do things because I want to do them and not because I will be punished if I don't. It is so nice to trust myself instead of agonizing over god's mysterious will. It truly is freedom. And if there is a heaven, and if there are angels, I think they ARE rejoicing that I have found the true message of Jesus- that LOVE is god. peace This is a great post.
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

15th October 2009, 08:16 PM	#25
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 17,342	ORUgrad, while I have turned away from the faith of my childhood and now label myself as a pagan atheist, I still find much wisdom in some of the teachings of jesus, strange but true. I just happen to find the same message many places now, even in the mundane life of a secular person.
	__________________ I’m not ready to make nice, I’m not ready to back down, I’m still mad as hell and I don’t have time to go round and round and round, It’s too late to make it right I probably wouldn’t if I could, ‘Cause I’m mad as hell, Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should- Dixie Chicks

15th October 2009, 08:42 PM	#26
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	Originally Posted by Olowkow I could not have said it any better. I have been saying it is a basic "fear" that motivates the ultraconservative religious for a long time. I am willing to believe, I guess, that ORUgrad is not a Trojan Horse, especially as compelling and articulate as he is. I found this, particularly moving: I couldn't live like that. ETA: and welcome to ORUgrad. You have your work cut out for you, as you owe a lot to your peers to help them out of this morass that you have escaped. What you say here is actually incidental and unimportant as you are preaching to the choir. Yes! It is fear. They call it "love". But it is FEAR. Look at all the anger you will often get when their beliefs are challenged. Yes, I could not live like that anymore either. It is natural to think critically. It takes a LOT of effort to suppress the desire and ability to do it. It is a severe handicap and requires a LOT of mental abuse to keep someone from thinking for themselves. Even though the Bible says to love god with all your MIND- I suppose that means never questioning anything. So when you get frustrated with people on here who can't or wont think critically, remember it is like becoming angry that the one legged man can't run. They have to "grow" another leg first. Actually the primary reason for my post here was in gratitude for all of you that take your time to answer those that seem beyond help and to say you ARE making a difference! That is important as you could be doing a lot more "productive" things with your time. Yes I am involved in other forums and am trying to be a real light in a lot of darkness. I have a big chin and try my best to remember where I came from so I treat hostility with grace. The ironic thing is that the Christians will RIP into each other over their particular interpretation of a Bible passage. They are as inflamatory with each other as they are here. My quest so far has been to get them to see that Jesus came to show people how to live peacefully with themselves and each other and NOT what they must believe about him personally. And that he taught not to judge at all yet GROW IN GRACE. I will often just ask questions about whatever topic they are discussing. Christianity is so full of holes and contradictions if you can just get people to try and articulate them for themselves, sometimes they will start to THINK! I can relate to the Lucian character from the movie "Underworld: Rise of the Lycans." Here you are getting the hell beat out of you every day and you think your captors are great because they gave you "life". Then you wake up and realize you are a slave in chains. And "life" has no meaning as long as someone ELSE is defining what that meaning is for you. But I would much rather hang out with Victor than Yahweh! peace
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 09:12 PM	#27
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by ORUgrad . . .and received an M.Div from Oral Roberts University. I have seen many of the "faith" ministries up close and personal. Wow. On the wikipedia page for this school, there is a list of notable graduates. Among those: Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Mania_Ministries Ron Luce is the president and founder of Teen Mania Ministries. He and his wife Katie founded Teen Mania in Tulsa, Oklahoma in 1986. Luce has publicly condemned "purveyors of popular culture" as "the enemy," who according to Luce are "terrorists, virtue terrorists, that are destroying our kids... they're raping virgin teenage America on the sidewalk, and everybody's walking by and acting like everything's OK. And it's just not OK." Welcome out of Babylon. I would be afraid to go to a school like that. Kind of scarry stuff. More from Ron Luce: Quote: adopted a militaristic tone, with frequent use of words such as "battle," "enemy," "soldier," "foes" and "warfare," accompanied by the display of military imagery and, at one such event, the use of simulated weapons.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 15th October 2009 at 09:19 PM.

15th October 2009, 09:16 PM	#28
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	Hux and Grayman, I could tell you stories until your eyes popped out about the craziness I have witnessed in being forced to attend ORU chapel and every "revival" meeting on campus. The ironic thing is that the Seminary faculty think the Roberts administration (which was recently thrown out) are completely off base. For most of my friends, Seminary was a traumatizing experience. One of my closest friends entered ministry but is fraught with deep doubts and insecurity. Another friend recognized the harshness and shocking nature of the OT, yet is resigned that that is the way it is and became a hard, judgemental, humorless zealot who refused to speak to me for deconverting. He used to be one of the funniest guys I knew. We were in each other's weddings. Another friend sees the craziness of the OT but can't deal with it and is greatly depressed. I wish we could have all just said "Ok guys, so instead of believing that God is a genocidal lunatic, how about we just believe that Jesus came to show us that love is really God, and that the OT is JEwish mythology and just call it a day?" Would have saved us all a great deal of pain.
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 09:22 PM	#29
Cynic Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 453	Taken by by itself, the NT isn't all sweetness and light either, besides being rather inconsistent.
	__________________ Words have no power to impress the mind without the exquisite horror of their reality. -- Edgar Allen Poe

15th October 2009, 09:27 PM	#30
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by ORUgrad Behind the spiritual sounding language are these core teachings. Who needs Satan, with this sort of belief? I think the key word for this is: Pentecostal. I'm no expert on it but from some meetings I have gone to with friends, and from having conversations with Pentecostal ministers, they seem to blame everything on the devil, and have been accused of personally being a devil, daring to even ask them where they get their beliefs from.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

15th October 2009, 09:29 PM	#31
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	Ethnikos, thankfully I did not go to undergrad there. The Seminary professors did a good job of innoculating us to the mind rape that goes on in chapel and other places. I really feel for the undergrads there. They were taught a world view for four years in a tiny bubble that will absolutely collapse in the real world. That could be a good thing. Unfortunately, people don't make the jump to "God is really not this way" and then be happy for the revelation. They think God is really this way and there must be something wrong with me for my messed up life. God must not love me. I will tell you a funny story that happened while I was there. A friend of mine was engaged to a wonderful girl in another state where he was from. She came down to visit him at school. One of the students saw him talking to her and when she was gone he came up to my friend and said, "Brother, I know you think that girl is going to be your wife. But God spoke to me and told me that he has someone else planned for you." My friend looked at him without reacting at all, put a hand on the guy's shoulder and said, "Thank you so much for telling me that Brother! Would you mind telling God, the next time you talk to him, to MIND HIS OWN DAMN BUSINESS?" Priceless!
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 09:36 PM	#32
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	Cynic, yes you are right. I have noticed that if the Bible says something someone agrees with, it is quoted context free. And if it says something for which he or she disagrees, there will be a big discussion about "context." If the Bible were clear, there would not be thousands of denominations. Ethnikos, yes. ORU is a charismatic/Pentecostal school. I actually saw Satan outside our chapel one day crying his little demon eyes out. I was so curious I went up to him and said "Wow! Satan! What are YOU crying about??" He said, "Those Christians blame me for EVERYTHING!" haha.
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

15th October 2009, 09:40 PM	#33
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by ORUgrad . . .Yet, you would think a Christian Creed would be full of the benevolent sayings of Jesus. Instead, they are filled with doctrinal decrees about the nature of God and Jesus. Things that we could not possibly know but are required to believe. The Athanasian Creed? That's a tool of enforcement, not a tool for learning. They put in enough so that any type of actual thinking will put you in violation, and subject to being burned.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

15th October 2009, 09:49 PM	#34
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by ORUgrad Ethnikos, thankfully I did not go to undergrad there. I went one year to a Christian boarding academy when I was 16 and was struck by how none of the faculty seemed religious at all. The students were supposed to be, though. I found it rather disturbing and did not volunteer to go again. Lucky for you, that you were exposed to this sort of, encouragement to insanity, only as long as you were.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 15th October 2009 at 10:05 PM.

15th October 2009, 09:55 PM	#35
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by ORUgrad I think someone can follow the teachings of Jesus and use that as a framework for how to live and be perfectly happy. And you decided to post on this forum. . . .why? You might not find it too much fun, with that kind of attitude. Well, thanks for stopping by.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

15th October 2009, 10:01 PM	#36
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 23,160	Welcome ORUgrad. It took me a few minutes to interpret your user ID and I got a real kick out of it. Originally Posted by sackett {snip}Darth, old rotor, I think you're still down there among the believers. Right? I wonder when you'll haul yourself up and earn a Well done! American Atheists is that a way ----> This is a skeptics forum, not an atheists forum and it's bad form to denigrate your fellow skeptic like that.
	__________________ "The permanence of the stars was questioned, the justice of slavery was not" - Carl Sagan in Cosmos discussing the content of the Library of Alexandria. a post by Alan Smithee explained. Blutoski's taxonomy of woo Join my The Not Cool Kids Club Last edited by UnrepentantSinner; 15th October 2009 at 10:02 PM.