first post and word of thanks from former fundie

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Don't think that there is some way to make a compromise.
It doesn't matter how many gods you stack up, one on top of the other, all the way to the sky. Whoever ends up on top is still responsible for the lowest god's actions. You can not say there is a better god somewhere that we just don't know about.

You have to understand that I am interested in helping people who are where I was. And to do that, you cannot get them from Yahweh is God to God does not exist in one leap. It just wont happen. We are taught NOT to think. and the mere suggestion that god does not exist will push the "tilt" button and "game over." You have to start where they are. And where they are is believing that a lunatic is the creator. So let them keep their assumption that there IS a creator and ask questions about this OT God and how they understand this God. If you can get a zealot (of which I was one) to no longer believe the OT god is the creator, that is a HUGE SUCCESS. Maybe they then believe that Jesus is God in human form. At that point, it doesn't matter because that person will no longer be a zealot, will get a huge dose of humility, and will begin to question a lot more things and START THE THINKING PROCESS. Once people start thinking, they will often deconvert themselves. Not all at once. And with lots of pain.

All I am suggesting is that we open the door for people instead of trying to push them off a cliff. You might prefer them to believe Jesus never existed and there is no creator, but the more life changing belief that will bring them peace and no doubt will potentially radically change their character for the better is that they no longer have to worship a lunatic! They can believe JEsus existed or didn't exist. I don't care. However, worshiping a lunatic and calling it "good" has severe psychological consequences I wish to help people overcome.


peace

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Ethnikos, I was thinking of the Nicene Creed. And yes I do think that people can reject virgin births, raising from the dead, etc. but still follow the benevolent teachings of Jesus and strive to be a good person. The liberal Unitarians I know do this and are easy to talk to and kind without the "conversion" agenda. You might prefer them to be atheist. I just prefer them to be sane. Calling the OT god loving is clearly insane. When I read an OT passage to a Christian that talks about stoning a rebellious child until he dies and ask if that sounds like quality parental advice from an all knowing, loving creator, I either get blank stares or an angry response about "context". No matter what though, this will more often than not jump start the thinking process. It is a start anyway. So I suppose I said all that to say that if I can succeed only in getting some Christians to see that the OT god CANNOT BE GOD, I'm fine with them believing whatever they want to believe about the teachings of Jesus- as shedding this one belief will have a tremendous liberalizing effect- but more importantly- should bring some relief deep down.

On the other hand, this route could get you branded as incredibly anti-semetic.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Ethnikos, I was thinking of the Nicene Creed.

The Athanasian Creed was produced by the Council of Nicea.

Quote:

And yes I do think that people can reject virgin births, raising from the dead, etc. but still follow the benevolent teachings of Jesus and strive to be a good person. The liberal Unitarians I know do this and are easy to talk to and kind without the "conversion" agenda. You might prefer them to be atheist.

I'm not an atheist, nor do I want people to be atheists. I believe in God but am skeptical of religion. I think most religion is counterproductive to actual salvation.

Quote:

I just prefer them to be sane. Calling the OT god loving is clearly insane.

Having a degree in divinity, I would expect you to know something about the other gods in the region of Canaan and points outward. YHWH is pretty toned down on the violence compared to let's say, Baal. There is one I was reading the song to, who cuts off the hands and strings them around her waist and takes the heads and hangs them from her neck, and wades, knee deep through the blood.

Quote:

When I read an OT passage to a Christian that talks about stoning a rebellious child until he dies and ask if that sounds like quality parental advice from an all knowing, loving creator, I either get blank stares or an angry response about "context".

How about people in the vicinity of Canaan who put their children "through the fire" which sounds like a sacrifice to me. At least YHWH waits for the kid to give a reason, first.

Quote:

No matter what though, this will more often than not jump start the thinking process. It is a start anyway. So I suppose I said all that to say that if I can succeed only in getting some Christians to see that the OT god CANNOT BE GOD,

How good is your hypothetical god who allows someone to impersonate him and cause havoc in his name?

Quote:

I'm fine with them believing whatever they want to believe about the teachings of Jesus- as shedding this one belief will have a tremendous liberalizing effect- but more importantly- should bring some relief deep down.

I'm sorry for your former anguish and good luck with reconstructing some sort of sane belief system.

[ORUgrad]

Cynic, great post! Really! This paragraph hit me the most...

"The more I thought about it, the more I became obsessed with the idea of honestly and integrity. Over the years my thinking went from wishing I could believe, to thinking it's a nice idea but it's not true, to thinking it's a nice idea, but not very well thought out, to thinking it isn't such a nice idea at all, to, eventually, thinking it's pretty much a worst case scenario. A lot of people might liken it all to recovering from Stockholm Syndrome, and I'm hard-pressed to disagree with the analogy.

This is exactly the point I made to my Orthodox friend. Fundamentalists and some other Christian groups suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. They worship a god who beats the hell out of them for no real reason and this is the "cross" we must bear. And we love our attacker because after he is finished beating the hell out of us in this life, we get to spend eternity thanking him for this "gift." I certainly am not in a place where I can claim I have "arrived" and as I mentioned before, there will be areas of darkness that I will discover still in me. The difference is that now I have my mind back and I can trust myself. I don;t claim to have it all together. For someone in as deep as I was, it took me ten good years of reading, unlearning, and THINKING to get over all the fear that goes with the deconverting process. It is HELL. So I will be the first to admit I am still in "process" but do endeavor to use my brain to better my life. I would add to it a big dose of humility and grace for myself and for those like me still trapped.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

All I am suggesting is that we open the door for people instead of trying to push them off a cliff.

I appreciate your concern for others.
Thinking may be something that some people have a natural aversion to and may not have anything to do with what they were taught as children.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

The Athanasian Creed was produced by the Council of Nicea.

No. The Nicene Creed was produced at the first Council of Nicea. The Athanasian Creed came much later and is completely different. I tried to link to a relevant article describing both but the editor will not allow me. Google both Creeds to see the differences.

YHWH is pretty toned down on the violence compared to let's say, Baal. There is one I was reading the song to, who cuts off the hands and strings them around her waist and takes the heads and hangs them from her neck, and wades, knee deep through the blood.

How about this?? Hosea 13:16:
16Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.

How about we agree that both YHWH and Baal were lunatics not worthy of worship?


How about people in the vicinity of Canaan who put their children "through the fire" which sounds like a sacrifice to me. At least YHWH waits for the kid to give a reason, first.


Really, dead is dead. Whether by stoning or burning. No YHWH does not wait for the kid to give a reason. The kid is asked nothing at all.

Deuteronomy 21:18"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21(N) Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones.(O) So you shall purge the evil from your midst,(P) and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


I'm sorry for your former anguish and good luck with reconstructing some sort of sane belief system.

Thanks for your encouragement.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Thanks for your encouragement.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 21:18"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21(N) Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones.(O) So you shall purge the evil from your midst,(P) and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Sounds like someone who should have moved out a long time ago and got a job. This can't be talking about an infant. At this point, the dude should run like hell and he would be fine.

Quote:

No. The Nicene Creed was produced at the first Council of Nicea. The Athanasian Creed came much later and is completely different. I tried to link to a relevant article describing both but the editor will not allow me. Google both Creeds to see the differences.

Athenasius wrote the Nicene Creed. It seems a matter of nomenclature. Later was added condemnations against non-believers, so to distinguish between the two versions, some people use the convention of using two different names, though the actual creeds are identical.

Quote:

How about this?? Hosea 13:16:
16Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.

That's like Tim Callahan's example of the prophecy of Egypt being completely destroyed, never actually happened. The top of the ruling class got it though, but mostly just loosing their nice positions in government.

[Dragoonster]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

And you decided to post on this forum. . . .why?
You might not find it too much fun, with that kind of attitude.
Well, thanks for stopping by.

Kind of rude.

I'm a lifelong atheist and don't care if Jesus was divine, existed, or was a fictional creation. The morals he espoused were pretty darn good imo, he and Gandhi, Buddha are about on part for me, and I respect them all.

And I don't think it's necessary to give up all gods in order to become a better or more tolerating person. I'd be thrilled if all Christians started actually practicing Jesus' teachings and ignored the OT altogether. More thrilled if they abandoned religion altogether, but it's not quite a binary situation. Even theists can be good people.

edit: I may be misunderstanding your objection here, sorry if that's the case

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Dragoonster

Kind of rude.

I'm a lifelong atheist and don't care if Jesus was divine, existed, or was a fictional creation. The morals he espoused were pretty darn good imo, he and Gandhi, Buddha are about on part for me, and I respect them all.

And I don't think it's necessary to give up all gods in order to become a better or more tolerating person. I'd be thrilled if all Christians started actually practicing Jesus' teachings and ignored the OT altogether. More thrilled if they abandoned religion altogether, but it's not quite a binary situation. Even theists can be good people.

I did not mean it in a rude way, sorry if it came out that way. I was just kidding around. Oops, I guess I need to be serious.
I'm just saying there isn't like a large contingent of, yes NT, no OT, people here. That's all. I don't have anything against him at all. You can read in his post how screwed up the scene was that he came out of. I agree, it is screwed up. That's why I say Babylon. Religion has gotten to the point to where it is like Abraham leaving Ur of the Chaldees. There was no God in that city. There were lots of gods.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I did not mean it in a rude way, sorry if it came out that way. I was just kidding around. Oops, I guess I need to be serious.
I'm just saying there isn't like a large contingent of, yes NT, no OT, people here. That's all. I don't have anything against him at all. You can read in his post how screwed up the scene was that he came out of. I agree, it is screwed up. That's why I say Babylon. Religion has gotten to the point to where it is like Abraham leaving Ur of the Chaldees. There was no God in that city. There were lots of gods.

What about Babylon ?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

What about Babylon ?

Don't get all offended. It is a figurative Babylon from Revelation.

[portlandatheist]

Why did I join JREF? Oh yeah, posts like this! Your post made my day. Thank you. Welcome to The JREF

[hamelekim]

Originally Posted by Dragoonster

Kind of rude.

I'm a lifelong atheist and don't care if Jesus was divine, existed, or was a fictional creation. The morals he espoused were pretty darn good imo, he and Gandhi, Buddha are about on part for me, and I respect them all.

And I don't think it's necessary to give up all gods in order to become a better or more tolerating person. I'd be thrilled if all Christians started actually practicing Jesus' teachings and ignored the OT altogether. More thrilled if they abandoned religion altogether, but it's not quite a binary situation. Even theists can be good people.

edit: I may be misunderstanding your objection here, sorry if that's the case

But Jesus supported the Law of the Old Testament. He came not to get rid of the law but to fulfill it. He lived his life perfectly within the law, with the spirit of the law.

The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same, they never change. If you fail to understand this, and why it is so, then you lack discernment and understanding. Or maybe you realize it and just reject it.

The Old Testament law is a complete condemnation of man, and how we can never measure up to God's standards, hence Jesus died on the cross. This runs counter to every single other religion in the world. That should make you stop and think, when you condemn all religions as wrong, why is it that all of them but one state that you can have salvation through works?

[hamelekim]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

You have to understand that I am interested in helping people who are where I was. And to do that, you cannot get them from Yahweh is God to God does not exist in one leap. It just wont happen. We are taught NOT to think.

What did the Bereans do? Did they not think? Did they not question? We are told to test the spirits to see if they are right.

If a preacher says not to question, that is his failing, not Christianities. It's like the whole rapture question. We have become so wrapped up in denominations and rules and regulations that we consider it heresy to question any of it.

That doesn't mean that Christianity is wrong, or that people don't have the core message right, but certainly our teachings are not complete.

1 Corinthians 13:9

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

Acts 17:11

11Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness,(A) examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Quote:

and the mere suggestion that god does not exist will push the "tilt" button and "game over." You have to start where they are. And where they are is believing that a lunatic is the creator. So let them keep their assumption that there IS a creator and ask questions about this OT God and how they understand this God. If you can get a zealot (of which I was one) to no longer believe the OT god is the creator, that is a HUGE SUCCESS.

Where in the OT is god a lunatic, and if so, compared to who's standards? Because God doesn't compare to our standards. How can the finite and imperfect judge the infinite and perfect?

It seems that you have a problem with God judging people, because that is what he does in the OT. He leaves people to do their own thing, because they rejected him, and then uses Israel as a beacon of light, and a rod of iron among the nations.

I see nothing wrong in this. The creator has a right to judge us, and do with us what he will.

The OT God and NT God are one and the same, this was always the case, and always will be.

Quote:

Maybe they then believe that Jesus is God in human form. At that point, it doesn't matter because that person will no longer be a zealot, will get a huge dose of humility, and will begin to question a lot more things and START THE THINKING PROCESS. Once people start thinking, they will often deconvert themselves. Not all at once. And with lots of pain.

At that point you get the New Age people who believe that Jesus was one of the great teachers, and that they will come again, which they will, and deceive the nations with things that their ears want to hear.

People reject the truth because they don't want to believe it, not because it isn't true.

Quote:

All I am suggesting is that we open the door for people instead of trying to push them off a cliff. You might prefer them to believe Jesus never existed and there is no creator, but the more life changing belief that will bring them peace and no doubt will potentially radically change their character for the better is that they no longer have to worship a lunatic! They can believe JEsus existed or didn't exist. I don't care. However, worshiping a lunatic and calling it "good" has severe psychological consequences I wish to help people overcome.

peace

Jesus did exist, unless you are a hardcore zealot against Christianity, he was a historical figure, not mythological. You can argue about the miracles all you want, but he did exist, and he did change the world.

I would think long and hard about giving up eternal life because of a lack of understanding and trust.

Sometimes it is better not to burn bright and die out, then to burn steady and endure.

[Hux]

Orugrad, see what you are missing?

Welcome to sanity. Pretty soon your eyes will glaze over when you read the kind of crap as above.

[Dancing David]

Hamelekim
I would think long and hard about your superstitious clap trap, if god exists, they made me. the way I am, only a sick pervert would make something, then condemn it for being the way they made it.

Sometimes it is better to realize that you do not know the truth and stop pretending that you do.

Pascal's wager cuts both way, what if you are praying to the wrong god?

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Who needs Satan, with this sort of belief?
I think the key word for this is: Pentecostal.
I'm no expert on it but from some meetings I have gone to with friends, and from having conversations with Pentecostal ministers, they seem to blame everything on the devil, and have been accused of personally being a devil, daring to even ask them where they get their beliefs from.

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

The bogyman is Satan. The world is going to be judged by God, by His allowing Satan to have his way with the planet, as he sees fit.
So the new thing is really the old thing, evil, but with the technology to facilitate it, and on a world wide basis.
The world has gone on long enough in not recognizing the true God, so we will have as our god, who we seem to want, the god of wilful desire, Satan. That leaves us exposed to people motivated by a pathological desire for self-interest, which is destructive to the average person.

I just don't understand what you believe Ethnikos: I know you have posted extensively and I have read much of it: but can you see why I might be confused?

[Rodney]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

As I am opposed to child rape, torture, and murder (among a great many other things the OT god commanded), I came to the realization that if this violent war god was really the creator, we were all screwed.

You should fit right in here.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Sounds like someone who should have moved out a long time ago and got a job. This can't be talking about an infant. At this point, the dude should run like hell and he would be fine.

Now I'm used to a certain level of bullcrap in fundie rationalization, but... did you base yours on just postulating something that's not actually in there?

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Why did I join JREF? Oh yeah, posts like this! Your post made my day. Thank you. Welcome to The JREF

Thanks. That was my intent. To make those of you who wonder why the heck you waste your time answering people to know that your insights are valuable and do have an impact. I think I said in an earlier post that I had been a lurker here for five years. Upon further reflection, I think it has been much longer. Look at this one thread. 55+ responses but almost 700 readers! I'm sure nothing I write will be perfect. And I am sure there will be areas of blindness many of you will help me uncover (kindly preferably but I will take the light howeverI can get it too ). I am ok with the fact that I don;t know everything and by no means have I "arrived."

With much appreciation...

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by hamelekim

What did the Bereans do? Did they not think? Did they not question? We are told to test the spirits to see if they are right.

If a preacher says not to question, that is his failing, not Christianities. It's like the whole rapture question. We have become so wrapped up in denominations and rules and regulations that we consider it heresy to question any of it.

That doesn't mean that Christianity is wrong, or that people don't have the core message right, but certainly our teachings are not complete.

1 Corinthians 13:9

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

Acts 17:11

11Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness,(A) examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Where in the OT is god a lunatic, and if so, compared to who's standards? Because God doesn't compare to our standards. How can the finite and imperfect judge the infinite and perfect?

It seems that you have a problem with God judging people, because that is what he does in the OT. He leaves people to do their own thing, because they rejected him, and then uses Israel as a beacon of light, and a rod of iron among the nations.

I see nothing wrong in this. The creator has a right to judge us, and do with us what he will.

The OT God and NT God are one and the same, this was always the case, and always will be.



At that point you get the New Age people who believe that Jesus was one of the great teachers, and that they will come again, which they will, and deceive the nations with things that their ears want to hear.

People reject the truth because they don't want to believe it, not because it isn't true.


Jesus did exist, unless you are a hardcore zealot against Christianity, he was a historical figure, not mythological. You can argue about the miracles all you want, but he did exist, and he did change the world.

I would think long and hard about giving up eternal life because of a lack of understanding and trust.

Sometimes it is better not to burn bright and die out, then to burn steady and endure.

hamelekim, I appreciate and understand your concerns and will start another thread to deal with the issues you raise- as they are important ones. Thank you for posting this. It is exactly the type of post I am interested in addressing.

[ORUgrad]

One more thought... the hostility shown between Christians on some of the other forums I post on is truly amazing. In fact, after a heated exchange with one of my friends who went to ORU with me, I realized that here I was having difficulty even being understood by someone I call a friend, who was raised in a similar way to me, speaks the same language, has had similar experiences, is from the same culture, same race, and was raised in the same religion! And we wonder why we have such trouble with people who are born into a completely different culture, religion, language and race!

The problem is certain core beliefs that are destructive. If you worship a god that commands you to rape the children of your enemies, there will probably not be a lot of love and grace in your life. If I could just get people to see the incompatibility of an all loving creator with a brutal lunatic, their life will change. People who believe like this live under such a cloud of anxiety. For those who are brainwashed, the only way to get through is to go after the issues of gigantic contrast like this. I don't want people to think like me. I want them to think like THEM. Right now, fundamentalists are being mouthpieces for someone ELSE. For them to find their own mind, they must let go of the belief in this monster god who will throw them into hell for asking honest questions. This is where my heart is. It happened for me. I know the way out for people who are like I used to be. It is a painful path but a joyeous destination. For me, I do not care if they want to believe mythology. I don;t care if they believe the earth was formed in six literal days. Why? Because that belief by itself will not motivate someone to walk into a marketplace and blow themselves up to defend their god's honor. I would just be happy with a world where people actually believed that loving your enemies was a good thing to do. The insane dictators and followers in the world are only following the example of the god they believe in.

peace

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Now I'm used to a certain level of bullcrap in fundie rationalization, but... did you base yours on just postulating something that's not actually in there?

Thanks for your high level of debate. (kidding)
Answer: No.
Is someone else reading something else into it?
God is giving people a way out, from abusive domestic relationships. As in, take it to the village elders, and allow them to take extreme measures, when necessary. And that makes God evil? I don't think so.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

I just don't understand what you believe Ethnikos: I know you have posted extensively and I have read much of it: but can you see why I might be confused?

Yes.
On one side is a powerful spiritual entity influencing a global elite to repress the people who they strive to dominate, on the other side is each person being a satin in themselves. There's a little bit of a difference. It is easy for preachers to miss the nuance here, and that's how I see a problem in so-called religion, where there is a dis-service being done which does not lead to true salvation. Jesus came to take away that fear of our own destruction and to put it on the head of the one responsible (Satan) and destroy him, and not us.

[Hux]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

One more thought... the hostility shown between Christians on some of the other forums I post on is truly amazing. In fact, after a heated exchange with one of my friends who went to ORU with me, I realized that here I was having difficulty even being understood by someone I call a friend, who was raised in a similar way to me, speaks the same language, has had similar experiences, is from the same culture, same race, and was raised in the same religion! And we wonder why we have such trouble with people who are born into a completely different culture, religion, language and race!

The problem is certain core beliefs that are destructive. If you worship a god that commands you to rape the children of your enemies, there will probably not be a lot of love and grace in your life. If I could just get people to see the incompatibility of an all loving creator with a brutal lunatic, their life will change. People who believe like this live under such a cloud of anxiety. For those who are brainwashed, the only way to get through is to go after the issues of gigantic contrast like this. I don't want people to think like me. I want them to think like THEM. Right now, fundamentalists are being mouthpieces for someone ELSE. For them to find their own mind, they must let go of the belief in this monster god who will throw them into hell for asking honest questions. This is where my heart is. It happened for me. I know the way out for people who are like I used to be. It is a painful path but a joyeous destination. For me, I do not care if they want to believe mythology. I don;t care if they believe the earth was formed in six literal days. Why? Because that belief by itself will not motivate someone to walk into a marketplace and blow themselves up to defend their god's honor. I would just be happy with a world where people actually believed that loving your enemies was a good thing to do. The insane dictators and followers in the world are only following the example of the god they believe in.

peace

I cannot speak for anyone but me Grad but I for one do not concern myself with the nuances of a God that does not exist. Moreover, you will find those who are intransigent and insist on believing the Supernatural realms exist. But only in part. Thus, a Christian might believe in Unicorns but not ina flying Horse. Certain Christians might believe in talking snakes but find it hard to swallow a camel coming out of a rock. It is this selective and ludicrous stance that annoys anyone with a grasp of reality and you are going to encounter it continuously. So you may well ask yourself if it is worth 'debating' the brain dead notions of a bygone age or whether it might be more worth your while to discard them and spend your time in other pursuits? Its going to be an uphill task to convince people who's only book tells them 2+2= whatever it says.

[Niggle]

Hi, ORUgrad. Welcome. I'm glad that you've escaped, and I wish you the best in getting over the demons they've left behind. I was raised Catholic and suffered from many of the same fears as you, so it isn't limited to Pentecostals, though they do seem to be much more extreme. I "officially" left the church almost twelve years ago now, and I'm still struggling with feelings of worthlessness and fear. Yours won't be an easy road, but I'm glad to see you get a start on it. Thank you for letting us know we actually are helping sometimes.

May the peace you seek be yours, may you spread it far and wide, and may those you care about accept it in the light in which it is offered.

[Hux]

Niggle, it would do you more good to talk about these unnecessary fears of worthlessness than anything else; especially if you cannot convince yourself.

Once, as Orugrad understood, you jettison these unsupported fears, your life can take on new meanings, free of these medieval notions that haunt you. Catholicism had made a career out of making its adherents feel like crap about themselves. Contrary to what another claimed on here, its not just the Calvinists that think themselves unworthy.

You gotta let it go. Talk about it.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Just want to add my welcome to ORUgrad.

I hope you can stick around and contribute. I think your point of view would be invaluable here.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

The problem is certain core beliefs that are destructive. If you worship a god that commands you to rape the children of your enemies, there will probably not be a lot of love and grace in your life.

I'd caution you against assuming that most people take what they "believe" very seriously. My own experience growing up pales utterly by comparison to the intensity of your own regarding religion, yet my wife is almost as far away from me in that regard in the other direction. A great many people are what I'd term "areligious", and are utterly clueless about it. When I first started dating her the subject of religion came up and she said she was "basically Christian", but as time went on I discovered that she knew so little -- and concerned herself so little -- of any religious notions that she barely qualified as an atheist except on the technicality that she didn't hold a belief in god.

You see this with anti-gay sentiment. It's tempting to blame it on religion, and it's certainly there. But sometimes things just bleed outside the lines and the source doesn't matter anymore. Some people just don't like gays and when pressed on why, they might cite the bible to justify their thoughts, but that's not really where they came from. It's all very incestuous, information. But I think it gives the average person too much credit to assume they actually understand the ramifications of their own "beliefs".

More often than not, people are told what to think and then given bible quotes that supposedly back that up. The bible is rarely read and then interpreted. As George Bernard Shaw observed, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means."

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Norm Breyfogle

Now, don't anyone get me wrong; I consider all "spiritual" statements (like the ones in my above essay) to be metaphors, not literalistic truths. Though I'm entirely non-religious, I can find value now in religion only by viewing it as poetic metaphor ... basically meaningful (and very often meaningless) fiction.

As that great philosopher, Sergeant Schultz used to say: "I know nothink!"



M.

[sleepy_lioness]

Hi ORU,

Glad to see you've thrown off the shackles. I was similar to you - fundie Baptist upbringing, fear of hell, the works. I left all that at the age of about 17, when I woke up one morning and God wasn't there. It's hard to explain. I was going through a tough time emotionally, but I'd always been able to sense God's presence before. One day he'd just gone. It was awful at the time. I got through it, and have wavered between atheism and liberal Anglicanism ever since. I think I only really got over my fear of hell several years later, when a very wise and compassionate priest asked me whether I could ever condemn anyone, even my worst enemy, to eternal torture. I said of course not. He said, so why do you think God is less loving than you are?

It also helped to discover how slight the foundations for the doctrine of hell are in the bible, and how much the doctrine grew out of the medieval church's need to control its followers.

Right now I'm in an Anglican phase. I got to this because I needed a 'spiritual' aspect to my life, so I tried Buddhist meditation. While I still practice and I got a lot out of it, I discovered that, for me, tradition was very important in building a sense of community and 'spirituality' (however defined), so I ended up back at the local Parish church. Most of my adult life I've been an atheist.

If I could disagree with you slightly: I think it's a mistake and an oversimplification to say OT-bad, NT-good. Not only does this have the potential (no more than that) to feed off centuries of Christian anti-Judaism, it is also, in my view, incorrect. There's plenty of beauty in the OT and plenty of horror in the NT, and it's the NT that is often, in my experience, used to manipulate vulnerable followers of Christianity (he *died* for you! how can you possibly do/think/be that?!). For me the solution is to understand the bible as a record of people's developing and changing understanding of God. They often get it wrong, as we all do (the human condition), and the bible shows that, as well as suggesting some ways in which it's possible to get it gloriously right. Just a personal view.

[sleepy_lioness]

Originally Posted by Hux

Niggle, it would do you more good to talk about these unnecessary fears of worthlessness than anything else; especially if you cannot convince yourself.

Once, as Orugrad understood, you jettison these unsupported fears, your life can take on new meanings, free of these medieval notions that haunt you. Catholicism had made a career out of making its adherents feel like crap about themselves. Contrary to what another claimed on here, its not just the Calvinists that think themselves unworthy.

You gotta let it go. Talk about it.

Talking's often overrated, in my experience. Sometimes you just have to live with it. Or acknowledge it and watch the feelings come and go.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

God is giving people a way out, from abusive domestic relationships. As in, take it to the village elders, and allow them to take extreme measures, when necessary. And that makes God evil? I don't think so.

Ethnikos, when you read that passage, does it say anything about having a discussion with the Elders? Does it say anything about "giving the kid a chance to explain"? Does it say anything about abusive domestic relationships? No it does not. What is rebellion? Is it not the exercise of free will that Christians champion? Why then, when free will is excercised, is it called "rebellion" and most times is dealt with with extreme brutality in the OT? The OT god is not interested in free will. He is interested in conformity to what he wants (for the chosen ones.)

If you went to your father for advice on how to deal with a "rebellious" son and your father told you to take a gun and blow his brains out, would you not think your father was psychotic? Actually shooting him in the head is far more humane than stoning as stoning has a torture component to it. Just think about that.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Talking's often overrated, in my experience. Sometimes you just have to live with it. Or acknowledge it and watch the feelings come and go.

Amen.

I was shocked two years ago to find myself all melancholy at a Xmas Eve service. (I go for my wife, it is a family thing.)

Last year I was fine. Mumbling blasphemy while I sing the carols and hymns.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Hux

I cannot speak for anyone but me Grad but I for one do not concern myself with the nuances of a God that does not exist. Moreover, you will find those who are intransigent and insist on believing the Supernatural realms exist. But only in part. Thus, a Christian might believe in Unicorns but not ina flying Horse. Certain Christians might believe in talking snakes but find it hard to swallow a camel coming out of a rock. It is this selective and ludicrous stance that annoys anyone with a grasp of reality and you are going to encounter it continuously. So you may well ask yourself if it is worth 'debating' the brain dead notions of a bygone age or whether it might be more worth your while to discard them and spend your time in other pursuits? Its going to be an uphill task to convince people who's only book tells them 2+2= whatever it says.

Hux, I do see your point. However, I know the path that lead me out. And it will lead others out who are where I was. I can't start with "there is no god." I have to start with "Why do you think the OT god is god?" I would rather them believe God is all love and kisses than God is a raving lunatic. We tend to become what we worship.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

<snip>

"If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not. "

What I meant is that I feel deep down, everyone wants to be free. Free from fear, death, God's wrath, whatever. In the midst of my arrogant fundamentalism, the real "me" was something different. Something not expressed. The religion was warping and destructive and my statements of faith were given to me by others. I believed them but the real "me" felt the anxienty and knew something was very wrong. I put on a good "game face". But the real me wanted answers. I really do believe all people know deep down that something is very wrong- whether they are conscious of it are not. I was as far gone as one could go. I have even worked the platform for Benny Hinn! And I got free. So I try not to identify what people say with who they are. I really want people to get free!

<snip>

I think I agree with this. To my mind, a very large part of the "spiritual persona" we present to the world grows out of our need and desire to be accepted by those around us. I think a potentially funny sitcom would be one where a fundamentalist of any persuasion is somehow made to live in a household/town, etc, in which he or she is the only religious person. How would they behave, not having to constantly "testify" and demonstrate their religio-licks?


M.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I'd caution you against assuming that most people take what they "believe" very seriously. More often than not, people are told what to think and then given bible quotes that supposedly back that up. The bible is rarely read and then interpreted. As George Bernard Shaw observed, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means."

Cynic, I agree with you. I have said that a big bulk of Christians are functionally agnostic. They go to church but essentially live life how they want and don't think about a lot of issues. I'm not concerned about people like this. I'm concerned about people who really do take the Bible seriously and have warped thinking like I used to as a result. Such thinking ruins lives. It is these people that are my target.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Hi ORU,


If I could disagree with you slightly: I think it's a mistake and an oversimplification to say OT-bad, NT-good. Not only does this have the potential (no more than that) to feed off centuries of Christian anti-Judaism, it is also, in my view, incorrect. There's plenty of beauty in the OT and plenty of horror in the NT, and it's the NT that is often, in my experience, used to manipulate vulnerable followers of Christianity (he *died* for you! how can you possibly do/think/be that?!). For me the solution is to understand the bible as a record of people's developing and changing understanding of God. They often get it wrong, as we all do (the human condition),

Sleepy, I agree with you. For the most part, I do not believe in "X is completely good" or "y is completely evil". There is Jekyll and Hyde in everyone. Some more Jekyll. Some more Hyde. This is true with the Bible too. I did not mean for my posts to indicate otherwise.

[ORUgrad]

for those of you who are interested to know what people like me have had to come out of. Please go to youtube and search for "Jesus Camp" and watch it. It will open your eyes. They are doing this to KIDS in the name of God! I have experienced this but not at that young of an age. My heart bleeds for these kids. Their path will not be easy.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I appreciate your concern for others.
Thinking may be something that some people have a natural aversion to and may not have anything to do with what they were taught as children.

Definitely a cynical view, there. Do some studying. You'll find that this idea, too, is wrong.


M.