first post and word of thanks from former fundie

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by hamelekim

But Jesus supported the Law of the Old Testament. He came not to get rid of the law but to fulfill it. He lived his life perfectly within the law, with the spirit of the law.

The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same, they never change. If you fail to understand this, and why it is so, then you lack discernment and understanding. Or maybe you realize it and just reject it.

The Old Testament law is a complete condemnation of man, and how we can never measure up to God's standards, hence Jesus died on the cross. This runs counter to every single other religion in the world. That should make you stop and think, when you condemn all religions as wrong, why is it that all of them but one state that you can have salvation through works?

Define "salvation." I'm serious.


M.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by hamelekim

<snip>

Jesus did exist, unless you are a hardcore zealot against Christianity, he was a historical figure, not mythological. You can argue about the miracles all you want, but he did exist, and he did change the world.

How? What/which world? White folks' world?


M.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Thanks for your high level of debate. (kidding)
Answer: No.
Is someone else reading something else into it?
God is giving people a way out, from abusive domestic relationships. As in, take it to the village elders, and allow them to take extreme measures, when necessary. And that makes God evil? I don't think so.

Taking "it to the village elders" may have worked sometime, somewhere, but not in recent times.

Do you get out much?

I'm serious. I read. I watch. I try to keep up with what others are doing. And the "elders" are just as confuddled as the "juniors," from my vantage point. I'm referring specifically to "elders" in both the Christian and Jewish traditions, as exemplified in articles as recent as this week where it was demonstrated that "elders" in a certain tradition could not be trusted to be either truthful or honorable in respect to child sexual molestation. I don't have the article at hand but check the NYT, for one source.


M.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

Just want to add my welcome to ORUgrad.

I hope you can stick around and contribute. I think your point of view would be invaluable here.

Without a doubt, I concur wholeheartedly.


M.

ETA: Apologies for the multiple posts -- it's not always apparent that no one else is posting at the same time as you are.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Moochie

Taking "it to the village elders" may have worked sometime, somewhere, but not in recent times.

Quote:

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother. . .

It seems like it may be at the discretion of the parents. They would be the ones to determine when it would be appropriate to take this course of action.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Yes.
On one side is a powerful spiritual entity influencing a global elite to repress the people who they strive to dominate, on the other side is each person being a satin in themselves. There's a little bit of a difference. It is easy for preachers to miss the nuance here, and that's how I see a problem in so-called religion, where there is a dis-service being done which does not lead to true salvation. Jesus came to take away that fear of our own destruction and to put it on the head of the one responsible (Satan) and destroy him, and not us.

No idea what you are talking about. All I can glean is that satan needs a middle man: he corrupts people for this reason. The rest is incomprehensible to me

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

For me the solution is to understand the bible as a record of people's developing and changing understanding of God. They often get it wrong, as we all do (the human condition), and the bible shows that, as well as suggesting some ways in which it's possible to get it gloriously right. Just a personal view.

How can you tell when they get it right and when they get it wrong?

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

It seems like it may be at the discretion of the parents. They would be the ones to determine when it would be appropriate to take this course of action.

Well, to a child, the parents would be "elders." Can they always be trusted?


M.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Ethnikos, when you read that passage, does it say anything about having a discussion with the Elders? Does it say anything about "giving the kid a chance to explain"? Does it say anything about abusive domestic relationships? No it does not. What is rebellion? Is it not the exercise of free will that Christians champion? Why then, when free will is excercised, is it called "rebellion" and most times is dealt with with extreme brutality in the OT? The OT god is not interested in free will. He is interested in conformity to what he wants (for the chosen ones.)

If you went to your father for advice on how to deal with a "rebellious" son and your father told you to take a gun and blow his brains out, would you not think your father was psychotic? Actually shooting him in the head is far more humane than stoning as stoning has a torture component to it. Just think about that.

This (below) sounds like more of what I was talking about earlier, with the threatening prophecies of total destruction. It might be that one reported case of this law being carried out would be enough to strike fear in the hearts of the potentially rebellious.

Quote:

So you shall purge the evil from your midst,(P) and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Free-will (ours) is not what I champion. Free will to rebel is what Satan took advantage of. Free will for Adam was taken advantage of by Satan to have them join him in rebellion. God is the one who still has the use of free will, and He uses that freedom to choose to save us.

[Norm Breyfogle]

"As that great philosopher, Sergeant Schultz used to say: "I know nothink!"

- Moochie

---------------

I'm not sure I catch your drift ...?

[billydkid]

Don't you know that all non-believers are mean, cruel and evil people???

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Norm Breyfogle

"As that great philosopher, Sergeant Schultz used to say: "I know nothink!"

- Moochie

---------------

I'm not sure I catch your drift ...?

It doesn't matter. Weak attempt at funny.


M.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

No idea what you are talking about. All I can glean is that satan needs a middle man: he corrupts people for this reason. The rest is incomprehensible to me

Originally Posted by Hebrews 2

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

Replacing the external Satan with an internal satan seems to go against God's will, to me. Those who have willfully sold themselves completely to Satan are already judged, by their own action, and are not to be taken into account along with the ordinary people just trying to make their way through the world.

[Norm Breyfogle]

"It doesn't matter. Weak attempt at funny."

- Moochie

--------------

Ah. Good; then I guess did understand your Schultz quote. In other words, recognizing how little we know is the beginning of wisdom. Right? I concur.

[sleepy_lioness]

Originally Posted by godless dave

How can you tell when they get it right and when they get it wrong?

How does any of us make a moral judgement? I don't think that my process for deciding whether something in the bible is moral or immoral is any different from your process for deciding the same in, say, the Aeneid. Genocide is wrong, loving one's neighbour is right. And so on.

[Jontg]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Why not?

Once you open the door to any god, you can pretty much construct any mythology you want.

Unless you make that god omnimax--once you state that some entity controls everything in the universe, no amount of obfuscating myth can change the fact that It is by definition responsible for everything in the universe, including the actions of so-called adversarial beings. God created Satan and controls his actions, thus everything Satan does is on His own head.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Replacing the external Satan with an internal satan seems to go against God's will, to me. Those who have willfully sold themselves completely to Satan are already judged, by their own action, and are not to be taken into account along with the ordinary people just trying to make their way through the world.

Know anybody who has "willfully sold themselves completely to Satan"? I don't

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Know anybody who has "willfully sold themselves completely to Satan"? I don't

Maybe not personally.
That's kind of my point.
When it comes to people like me and you, we don't concern ourselves so much about our maybe being evil, as much as we do about what evil persons might do to us.
God has in store weapons of destruction, hopefully against those who have decided that we are their enemy, and wish to do us harm. Thinking we are the targets of God's wrath, and obsessing on it, is not the way to save people. It's ridiculous and evil and not helping God's plan.
As for those people who are intent on our harm, they should not be included into the discussion of those being led into salvation. I mean those people we do not know personally, and there are just a few, and this is who God talks about in prophecies of dire destruction. He means them. Not us. That is, if we do not do the bidding of those marked for destruction. Better to die at their hands than to die by the hand of God.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Maybe not personally.
That's kind of my point.
When it comes to people like me and you, we don't concern ourselves so much about our maybe being evil, as much as we do about what evil persons might do to us.
God has in store weapons of destruction, hopefully against those who have decided that we are their enemy, and wish to do us harm. Thinking we are the targets of God's wrath, and obsessing on it, is not the way to save people. It's ridiculous and evil and not helping God's plan.
As for those people who are intent on our harm, they should not be included into the discussion of those being led into salvation. I mean those people we do not know personally, and there are just a few, and this is who God talks about in prophecies of dire destruction. He means them. Not us. That is, if we do not do the bidding of those marked for destruction. Better to die at their hands than to die by the hand of God.

For my part I see no reason to believe that people I do not know are different in kind from people I do know. In fact I think that kind of thinking is actively detrimental to us as a society. As babies we do not know there is anyone else out there. As we grow we learn there are other people and we form bonds of attachment with more and more people: so first our carers and then our wider family and then perhaps school mates and teachers. At each stage, if all goes well, we increase our conception of who is "us" and we learn that we share a common humanity with wider and wider circles. For a very few very admirable people that comes to include the whole world. For most of use we stop somewhere along the line or we run out of time

We respond differently to those we perceive as "us" and the exclusion of groups of people is instrumental in allowing us to do some very bad things indeed.

I do not like your characterisation: I do not think it is true and I do not think it is likely to enhance civilisation.

If this is what your posts come down to count me out

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

We respond differently to those we perceive as "us" and the exclusion of groups of people is instrumental in allowing us to do some very bad things indeed.

If these were people we were capable of doing something to, we wouldn't need God, would we?
I'm not saying, be mean to anyone you don't know.
I'm saying the person, or persons, plotting the destruction of most people alive on the planet (not that it is their goal necessarily, but collateral damage), are probably not your next door neighbor or some one you eat lunch with.
So, there is not one person on earth who you would not want to include in your group that you would include yourself in (as in, us)? Just wondering. There are people who believe that God loves everyone and Hitler goes to heaven. I think that is a little strange, personally, and avoid ever getting into a serious conversation with those people.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

If these were people we were capable of doing something to, we wouldn't need God, would we?
I'm not saying, be mean to anyone you don't know.
I'm saying the person, or persons, plotting the destruction of most people alive on the planet (not that it is their goal necessarily, but collateral damage), are probably not your next door neighbor or some one you eat lunch with.
So, there is not one person on earth who you would not want to include in your group that you would include yourself in (as in, us)? Just wondering. There are people who believe that God loves everyone and Hitler goes to heaven. I think that is a little strange, personally, and avoid ever getting into a serious conversation with those people.

I do not believe anyone is plotting the destruction of most people alive on the planet, Ethnikos. It is certainly true that some decisions and some arrangements have bad results. This is largely because those who take the decisions are just like us: they mess up; they do not see everyone as "us" and so they suffer the misfortunes of others a little too stoically; they see the problem in front of them but not the unintended consequences. Etc

All of that means we should try to participate in those decisions and influence them where and how we can: and the very tendency to see " us" and " them" hampers that process no matter who is adopting it; as all people do to some extent

No: there is not one person I do not include as "us" (as an aspiration, I hasten to add: I am not a particularly good or large hearted person so I do not actually achieve this: but I have no doubt that this is the aim) in that there are no monsters; no non-humans; nothing but ourselves and all our faults. Some people are arrested in their development so that their conception of "us" is very narrow and that can lead to genocide or serial killing of any number of other horrible things: they need to be stopped and we need protection against them: but they are still human.

I think you illustrate this very well: you assume that there are those so alien we can legitimtely exclude them from "us": but you don't know any: this is just a "them" group and you should beware of that kind of thinking

God doesn't come into it.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

INo: there is not one person I do not include as "us" (as an aspiration, I hasten to add: I am not a particularly good or large hearted person so I do not actually achieve this: but I have no doubt that this is the aim) in that there are no monsters; no non-humans; nothing but ourselves and all our faults. Some people are arrested in their development so that their conception of "us" is very narrow and that can lead to genocide or serial killing of any number of other horrible things: they need to be stopped and we need protection against them: but they are still human.

I think you illustrate this very well: you assume that there are those so alien we can legitimtely exclude them from "us": but you don't know any: this is just a "them" group and you should beware of that kind of thinking

God doesn't come into it.

What happens when these people who need to be stopped are over the governments of the world's most powerful nations? Who stops them, then?
That's where God comes in.

[ORUgrad]

Ethnikos, I would really like for you to consider my question.You did not answer it. And I think it is paramount to the entire discussion.

"If you went to your father for advice on how to deal with a "rebellious" son and your father told you to take a gun and blow his brains out, would you not think your father was psychotic?"

To that I would add this. What do you think would happen to a general who told our troops, "Ok boys, now after the invasion and you have killed all the men and non virgin women, save the little girls for your raping pleasure. And if you find any pregnant women, kill them too but also rip out the fetus." If you were in such an army, would you "follow orders"? Or would you think your general was psychotic?

When I was in seminary I took a class on alternative religions. My report was on Wiccans. For the report I tracked down a high priestess of a coven here in town and asked if I could interview her. She was kind, gracious, and very UN "witch" like. She described lots of harsh judgement by Christians and her desire to just be left alone. She said she didn't even believe in Satan. Yes she believes a different set of mythologies. But her beliefs do not lead her to be psychotic. She has no interest in "casting spells on Christians" and believes if she cast an evil spell on anyone, it would come back to her three times worse. I would not want to be in such a belief system. But at the time it struck me hard that this woman was not my enemy. I played a tape of my interview for the class and one person got up and walked out because he thought demons might oppress him. Anyway, my point to the class was that this woman, while believing things that seemed odd to us, was doing the best she could with the knowledge and life she had. She did not hate Christians. She just wanted to be left alone and not be persecuted for her beliefs. Given her worldview, this seemed like a reasonable request. I was however chastised for not quoting the judgment of God to her and "evangelizing" her. I suppose I just didn't feel like being an @$$hole for Jesus. It was ironic that she had a more peaceful worldview than I had at the time because I believed in a psychotic god and she did not. Often we fear what we do not understand. And it is much easier to point the finger than to lend a hand.


peace

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

"If you went to your father for advice on how to deal with a "rebellious" son and your father told you to take a gun and blow his brains out, would you not think your father was psychotic?"

I had that happen.
Well, not exactly.
While involved in a vigorous fight among my siblings, my father got frustrated and gave us each a knife and told us to kill each other, and just get it over with.
Of course we thought he was crazy, but we stopped fighting, standing there with lethal weapons in our hands.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

To that I would add this. What do you think would happen to a general who told our troops, "Ok boys, now after the invasion and you have killed all the men and non virgin women, save the little girls for your raping pleasure. And if you find any pregnant women, kill them too but also rip out the fetus." If you were in such an army, would you "follow orders"? Or would you think your general was psychotic?

I hope you realize the Bible does not command people to rape girls.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

What happens when these people who need to be stopped are over the governments of the world's most powerful nations? Who stops them, then?
That's where God comes in.

I do not know what or whom you are referring to here? Who is "over the governments"? Are you suggesting that the heads of government of the "world's most powerful nations are psychopaths or have no sense of "us"?

It seems to me that the heads of government can, at times, be such people: it may even be common in history. One's notion of what should happen then is predicated largely on one's politics and one's view of the status of the rule of law and such. It is an open question how we make arrangements to avoid this: and when and how we recognise the legitimacy of extra-legal action to overturn such a government or head of state when we fail to prevent it. What we do know is that the solution, for better or worse, comes from people.

If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that there is another tier which has power over and above the governmental level then I simply see no evidence for that.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I hope you realize the Bible does not command people to rape girls.

Exhibit A: Numbers 31:15-18

15Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? 16Behold, these, on Balaam’s advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

I can break down this passage contextually if you like. There are actually several things that are quite problematic. The bottom line here though is "keep alive for yourselves." has nothing to do with raising them and everything to do with making them sex slaves.


Exhibit B: Isaiah 13:9-16

13Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the [a]earth shall be shaken out of its place at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of His fierce anger.
14And like the chased roe or gazelle, and like sheep that no man gathers, each [foreign resident] will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land.
15Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is connected with the slain and is caught will fall by the sword.
16Their infants also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.


rav·ish (rāv'ĭsh)
tr.v. rav·ished, rav·ish·ing, rav·ish·es

To force (another) to have sexual intercourse; rape.


It was passages like these and MANY more that kept staring me in the face while I sang praises to this god at church until finally I could not stand it anymore and had to admit if this was really god, we were all screwed. And I could not sing praises to such a creature and pretend he "loved" me.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I had that happen.
Well, not exactly.
While involved in a vigorous fight among my siblings, my father got frustrated and gave us each a knife and told us to kill each other, and just get it over with.
Of course we thought he was crazy, but we stopped fighting, standing there with lethal weapons in our hands.

I hope your dad was kidding. Or was just stressed out and did not really mean it. Unfortunately, YHWH, was quite serious. Do you think if you had read this passage as a child, you would have thought YHWH must have been crazy too? If so, what would you have thought of someone who told you that this god was who you were to worship and praise as all loving?

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by sackett

How close a parallel, though? After all, we have no reason to believe in heaven or angels, or in sin and repentance. The biblical passage is at best a figure of speech that tries to express the writer's state of mind; a deluded writer, as far gone in religionism as ORUgrad once was, but not, as far as we know, as capable of rescuing himself.

You took me a bit literally there, old friend.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Know anybody who has "willfully sold themselves completely to Satan"? I don't

Anton LeVay?

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Welcome, there are times I doubt my chosen path and then I regain balance. Whatever path you take , be joyful.

Amen.

[sackett]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

You took me a bit literally there, old friend.

DR

I know that I did. But you can understand that I didn't like being compared to an angel.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by sackett

I know that I did. But you can understand that I didn't like being compared to an angel.

And you weren't being so compared, you devil you! It's the similarity in approach that I find parallel, ironic, and amusing.

DR

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

I do not know what or whom you are referring to here? Who is "over the governments"? Are you suggesting that the heads of government of the "world's most powerful nations are psychopaths or have no sense of "us"?

No, or maybe, depending on who you mean, specifically.
Above the governments, as in who selects the candidates, so that whoever wins an election, they are guaranteed to do the bidding of the elite, who are only a few people, but represent the powers of Totalitarianism, such as crowned royalty, for example.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Know anybody who has "willfully sold themselves completely to Satan"? I don't

I have, repeatedly.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

No, or maybe, depending on who you mean, specifically.
Above the governments, as in who selects the candidates, so that whoever wins an election, they are guaranteed to do the bidding of the elite, who are only a few people, but represent the powers of Totalitarianism, such as crowned royalty, for example.

Where to gods come into the picture there, then?

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

What happens when these people who need to be stopped are over the governments of the world's most powerful nations? Who stops them, then?
That's where God comes in.

Well, you just shot your own argument, god has done a crappy job.

How many people died in Poland and China in WWII, just so god could glory in free will?

[Cynic]

I once sold a car to Satan but the bastard not only didn't pay, but left my car in the driveway!

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

When I was in seminary I took a class on alternative religions. My report was on Wiccans. For the report I tracked down a high priestess of a coven here in town and asked if I could interview her. She was kind, gracious, and very UN "witch" like. She described lots of harsh judgement by Christians and her desire to just be left alone. She said she didn't even believe in Satan. Yes she believes a different set of mythologies. But her beliefs do not lead her to be psychotic. She has no interest in "casting spells on Christians" and believes if she cast an evil spell on anyone, it would come back to her three times worse. I would not want to be in such a belief system. But at the time it struck me hard that this woman was not my enemy. I played a tape of my interview for the class and one person got up and walked out because he thought demons might oppress him. Anyway, my point to the class was that this woman, while believing things that seemed odd to us, was doing the best she could with the knowledge and life she had. She did not hate Christians. She just wanted to be left alone and not be persecuted for her beliefs. Given her worldview, this seemed like a reasonable request.

Yeah, us wiccan are an interesting bunch, about 30% are outright crazy, some are just as intolerant as anyone else. But overall a very harmless and fun loving bunch.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

I can break down this passage contextually if you like. There are actually several things that are quite problematic. The bottom line here though is "keep alive for yourselves." has nothing to do with raising them and everything to do with making them sex slaves.

I don't see that in the verse. Being slaves, or being forced to do anything in particular.

Quote:

Exhibit B: Isaiah 13:9-16

13Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the [a]earth shall be shaken out of its place at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of His fierce anger.
14And like the chased roe or gazelle, and like sheep that no man gathers, each [foreign resident] will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land.
15Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is connected with the slain and is caught will fall by the sword.
16Their infants also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.

Wives, not young girls.
This is what I think is called hyperbole. It says the sun will cease giving light. The earth shaken from its foundation. God was stirring up the Medes, and bringing the Persians to wreck Babylon. Well, as far as I know, the earth is still in its original orbit, and the sun still gives light, and the Babylonians were not exterminated but absorbed into a bigger empire.

Quote:

It was passages like these and MANY more that kept staring me in the face while I sang praises to this god at church until finally I could not stand it anymore and had to admit if this was really god, we were all screwed. And I could not sing praises to such a creature and pretend he "loved" me.

I don't remember that being the case, when I was growing up. It seemed somewhat ambivalent, concerning the Old Testament God, and we never were urged, from what I remember, to make any determination about Him, other than He did exist.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I once sold a car to Satan but the bastard not only didn't pay, but left my car in the driveway!

Did you repossess it?



Or

Did you, or call in an exorcist?



OK, I may go to Hell for that pair of gawdawful puns.

DR