first post and word of thanks from former fundie

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Where to gods come into the picture there, then?

The point I was trying to get at earlier had to do with who the dire prophecies were about. Are they against us, as in ordinary people, or against the truly evil people, who are in positions to actually carry out whatever sort of diabolical plans they may have in mind.
The reason God would have to intervene is because of the global nature of their plans, and the existence of the technological necessities to bring it about.
The point being, that taking those pronouncements from God, and applying them to ourselves, is not a good way to try to bring people over to a relationship with Jesus, and in fact may be counter productive.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I have, repeatedly.

[sings] This ain't a purchase it's a rental...[/sings]

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Above the governments, as in who selects the candidates, so that whoever wins an election, they are guaranteed to do the bidding of the elite, who are only a few people, but represent the powers of Totalitarianism, such as crowned royalty, for example.

How are candidates selected where you are?

Here anyone can stand if they are eligible. They have to be nominated on an official form and they have to have a proposer and a seconder and 10 signatures from electors who support them. And they need to put up a deposit (might be £500 or it might have gone up recently). They have to agree to stand in writing. Don't think there is much more to it.

[LisaLynn]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Coming from a background like mine, I still find little things I need to let go of. But it is fine because there is no angry lunatic waiting to punish me for screwing up. I would hope that my life would continue to be a place where little pieces of darkness are revealed for what they are so that those things can be rejected as well. And my heart is to shine the light for a few others who are following where I have been. It isn't a nice place to be.

It is so nice to do things because I want to do them and not because I will be punished if I don't. It is so nice to trust myself instead of agonizing over god's mysterious will. It truly is freedom. And if there is a heaven, and if there are angels, I think they ARE rejoicing that I have found the true message of Jesus- that LOVE is god.


peace

As a former fundy child myself, I just have to tell you that was really well put and beautiful.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Fiona

How are candidates selected where you are?

Here anyone can stand if they are eligible. They have to be nominated on an official form and they have to have a proposer and a seconder and 10 signatures from electors who support them. And they need to put up a deposit (might be £500 or it might have gone up recently). They have to agree to stand in writing. Don't think there is much more to it.

How did you elect(?) Tony Blair to be the E.U. President?
How did you elect(?) Gordon Brown to be the P.M.?

[Ladewig]

Welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

When I read an OT passage to a Christian that talks about stoning a rebellious child until he dies and ask if that sounds like quality parental advice from an all knowing, loving creator, I either get blank stares or an angry response about "context". No matter what though, this will more often than not jump start the thinking process. It is a start anyway.

You say this approach will help them start thinking "more often than not." I must say that I have found the opposite to be true. Do you really have evidence that pointing out an ordinary contradiction is scriptures really does start the thinking process?

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Welcome to the forum.




You say this approach will help them start thinking "more often than not." I must say that I have found the opposite to be true. Do you really have evidence that pointing out an ordinary contradiction is scriptures really does start the thinking process?

I would think it would depend a great deal on how one presents the information, don't you? Generally, if one isn't sympathetic toward the person one is conversing with, the chances of one's words making a positive impact are pretty slim, I would think.

Having come from a similar background, ORUgrad's regard for the person he/she is speaking with would likely be positive and sympathetic. In any case, I personally feel not enough can be said for having empathy toward those one seriously hopes to engage in a meaningful discussion.


M.

[RandFan]

Belated welcome ORUgrad. Let me just say that "something GOOD is going to happen to you today."

I grew up a Mormon but I used to get up Sunday morning to watch cartoons. Often I got up too early and had to sit through an Oral Roberts sermon. On one such day my grandfather died. I wonder what Oral meant? Oh well.

Jump in, the water is fine.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

How did you elect(?) Tony Blair to be the E.U. President?
How did you elect(?) Gordon Brown to be the P.M.?

Don't know about the EU president and I don't know what the office does: nobody does because there isn't one yet; the proposed office has no formal power so far as I know.

Gordon Brown is prime minister because he is the leader of the majority party in the house of commons. Some would say that a change of leader should automatically trigger an election: I disagree, but the point is eminently arguable.

Now how about you answer my question?

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Welcome to the forum.




You say this approach will help them start thinking "more often than not." I must say that I have found the opposite to be true. Do you really have evidence that pointing out an ordinary contradiction is scriptures really does start the thinking process?

Just because they don't immediately pat you on the back, say that you are right, and burn their Bible doesn't mean that they didn't start thinking. Don't expect immediate, visible, results.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

You say this approach will help them start thinking "more often than not." I must say that I have found the opposite to be true. Do you really have evidence that pointing out an ordinary contradiction is scriptures really does start the thinking process?

You are right Ladewig. I have no way to quantify "more often than not." Perhaps I should have said "many times." I would base that on my own life in hearing such contrasts, my own defense of them, and my own great discomfort. Another thing I did after seminary was read many books and internet blogs about deconversion experiences. These dealt with not ordinary contradictions, but "extraordinary" ones such as the god who loves everyone also orders genocide, infanticide, AND YES ABORTION- FORCED ABORTION. You can claim "context", culture, etc. only so long before you start to get really, really uncomfortable with the contrast between the god you are supposedly worshiping on Sunday and the god that is claiming to be this god in the Bible. So I do not care about arguing over how long Jesus was supposedly in the tomb or what he said on the cross or if he was being literal when he said "this is my body." All of that is a smoke screen. No one will give up their deeply ingrained faith over simple discrepancies in the Bible. And non-theists are trying to take too big of a bite by trying to force the point that there is no God at all. Just ask why they worship a god who claims to have CREATED EVIL. And why they think YHWH would be against voluntary abortion when he ordered forced abortion!

My point is that Christians already do not worship YHWH. They worship a god that their church has created for them who is all loving, kind, benevolent, and wants to be my best friend. This god is infinitely patient, slow to anger, full of grace, mercy, etc. It is a Sunday morning creation that isn't reality. So really it is better to ask them why they think their god is all those things when the Bible teaches he is NOT those things. And why they worship a god who commits, approves of, and orders attrocities on par with the greatest psychotic minds in history. It just isn't an easily defensible position to be in. They can mouth off lame excuses but somewhere inside them is a real "them" underneath the brainwashing that is screaming BU11 ****!!! When you ask them to show you how the mindset of a middle east terrorist is any different from that of YHWH, there will be some type of internal conflict. You may not see the fruit of it. And, yes there will be those who are too far gone and will never give up their faith and will worship a monster because they fear the monster will throw them into hell. But I have "faith" in the underlying desire of all people to be free. Maybe I am misguided here. But I have seen good fruit from this approach and it saves so much time in not getting side tracked by little inconsistencies in the Bible.

I would try to be as tactful as I could and perhaps soften the wording a little bit depending on who I was talking to. I would have no problem with "letting 'er rip" with an arrogant preacher. And would soften the tone with someone who is really just unhappy with their religion in general and looking for answers. These questions will cause great pain internally for the believer. And I am very sympathetic to it. But being free is far better than wasting one's life.

So they can keep their belief that god exists and the Bible is infallible. Asking them why the infallible Bible says such horrific things about the god they worship and why they continue to worship such a creature and why their Sunday morning concept of god does not exist in the Bible is really all someone needs to be asked about in order to begin a possible deconversion. Fundamentalist are already in hell. Deconversion rescues them from it.

peace

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Moochie

Well, to a child, the parents would be "elders." Can they always be trusted?


M.

Moochie, thanks for your insightful posts here. I would add that one thing I have noticed about my own religious upbringing is that it sought to tell me I could not trust myself and that someone else knew what was best for me. And it taught me that my will was evil and I needed to pray to know god's will. So it essentially taught me to not be "myself". Rather, be what someone else wanted me to be. Be an empty conduit for god to "use" as he saw fit! And we wonder why people have such a hard time being authentic?!? Sounds like a great recipe for a psychosis to me.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Jontg

Unless you make that god omnimax--once you state that some entity controls everything in the universe, no amount of obfuscating myth can change the fact that It is by definition responsible for everything in the universe, including the actions of so-called adversarial beings. God created Satan and controls his actions, thus everything Satan does is on His own head.

Good insight Jontg. YHWH is documented in the OT as sending an evil spirit to torment King Saul. Oh wait! I thought Satan controlled the demons! Doh!

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I had that happen.
Well, not exactly.
While involved in a vigorous fight among my siblings, my father got frustrated and gave us each a knife and told us to kill each other, and just get it over with.
Of course we thought he was crazy, but we stopped fighting, standing there with lethal weapons in our hands.

Children know the truth. Children know that it is insane to order someone to torture and murder their own rebellious children. You knew this as a child. What happened to you to cloud your good judgment since then? Why is it now ok for YHWH to command this and it somehow is not insane?

[shawmutt]

"[Skepticism] is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."



Thanks for the words of encouragement ORUgrad. Now if we can just get an anti-vaxxer to get his vaccines...

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

I can break down this passage contextually if you like. There are actually several things that are quite problematic. The bottom line here though is "keep alive for yourselves." has nothing to do with raising them and everything to do with making them sex slaves.

Ethnikos "I don't see that in the verse. Being slaves, or being forced to do anything in particular."

I will break this down in more detail in a post I am working on called "Why the Old Testament God is not God." But briefly, Moses has just murdered men, boys, and women who have slept with a man. Since the boys were killed too, there was no compassion for the children in general. And since the young girls and women who had been with a man sexually were killed (because they were defiled), for what purpose do you think they kept the little girls alive for? Moses says "keep them alive FOR YOURSELVES." Do you think he meant, "Hi little girl. I just killed your mommy, daddy and brothers because our god says they were living in our promised land and worshiping another god. But our leader says I get to keep you. I'd like to give you a home, raise you, and take great care of you. Wont that be great?"


Quote:
Exhibit B: Isaiah 13:9-16

13Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the [a]earth shall be shaken out of its place at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of His fierce anger.
14And like the chased roe or gazelle, and like sheep that no man gathers, each [foreign resident] will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land.
15Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is connected with the slain and is caught will fall by the sword.
16Their infants also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.


Ethnikos : "Wives, not young girls."

Are you suggesting that it is perfectly fine to rape the wives of the nation you conquor as long as they are not "too young"? As girls during the period were often very young when they married, it would be safe to say that some would be girls. I am against the rape of any woman- even though YHWH seems to not only approve, but command it.



Ethnikos wrote: "This is what I think is called hyperbole. It says the sun will cease giving light. The earth shaken from its foundation. God was stirring up the Medes, and bringing the Persians to wreck Babylon. Well, as far as I know, the earth is still in its original orbit, and the sun still gives light, and the Babylonians were not exterminated but absorbed into a bigger empire."

Yes hyperbole. Like when Jesus said some of them standing there would not die until he came back. Or anyone with tiny faith can move mountains, etc. etc. All the failed prophecies are hyperbole. If the Bible says something we don't like, there is hyperbole, context, culture. If we like it, it is quoted context free. It is all code for "the Bible says some really crazy ****, and a lot of things that really just ain't true."

I got tired of playing the game. What a relief!!!!

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by LisaLynn

As a former fundy child myself, I just have to tell you that was really well put and beautiful.

Lisa, you are welcome. Remember, you still have that "still small voice" inside of you. In fact it IS you. Trust yourself. Look at how far you have come!

[shawmutt]

Oh, and ORUgrad, in case you get discouraged in your attempts to help people--I was lined up to go to Yale seminary for the Episcopal church in a previous lifetime. A friend who was attending dropped out, and our conversations about why was a pivotal moment in my "deconversion" from the faith--so keep up the good work!

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Moochie

I would think it would depend a great deal on how one presents the information, don't you? Generally, if one isn't sympathetic toward the person one is conversing with, the chances of one's words making a positive impact are pretty slim, I would think.

Having come from a similar background, ORUgrad's regard for the person he/she is speaking with would likely be positive and sympathetic. In any case, I personally feel not enough can be said for having empathy toward those one seriously hopes to engage in a meaningful discussion.


M.

Moochie, yes this is very important. Knowing the mindset is crucial. Knowing what works and does not work in most cases gives me a huge advantage. I am over the anger now which also gives me a huge advantage. I'm not attached to the idea of them ever coming out of the darkness. But instead of raging at the darkness, my goal is to turn on the light for as many people as are ready.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Just because they don't immediately pat you on the back, say that you are right, and burn their Bible doesn't mean that they didn't start thinking. Don't expect immediate, visible, results.

Great point. Most of this is "seed planting" and I do not expect to see fruit all the time- or even some of the time.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by shawmutt

Oh, and ORUgrad, in case you get discouraged in your attempts to help people--I was lined up to go to Yale seminary for the Episcopal church in a previous lifetime. A friend who was attending dropped out, and our conversations about why was a pivotal moment in my "deconversion" from the faith--so keep up the good work!

Wow! I wish I had had such a friend! It would have saved me over $50,000! It was still a small price to pay for freedom though. What were your chief reasons?

[shawmutt]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Wow! I wish I had had such a friend! It would have saved me over $50,000! It was still a small price to pay for freedom though. What were your chief reasons?

For going, or for my deconversion?

[ORUgrad]

For your deconversion.

[shawmutt]

Well, I was raised fire and brimstone Baptist, left the Baptist church--church altogether for a while, and joined the more liberal (to me) Episcopal church after high school. I've doubted my whole life, and said as much to many church leaders, but my doubt in God was sold to me as strength, not weakness. "Wise men still seek him..." and whatnot.

I moved from the country and suburbia to the city of New Haven and got all confused. I met all these faithful people who were equally faithful to different gods! Either we all were wrong, or none of us were right! Or just I was right… I kept my faith, convinced that if I learned enough about the Bible, that if I progressed enough in my church, I would be shown the secret handshake and all would be revealed.

In the end, it was a culmination of many things, the realization that the infallible Bible of my youth was not really infallible, the special pleading for the “loving” God of the OT (and “loving” God of the NT as well, for that matter), and the conversations with my friend who left seminary—who told me in no uncertain terms that there is no secret handshake.

It’s funny, I was just listening to an episode of Skeptic’s Guide. They interviewed a guy who was a mentalist and skeptic, and worked his way into the inner circles of psychics. Long story short, he said the really good folks knew they were all playing a game, and there were a lot of winks and nudges that went on. I have a hard time believing that the religious leaders of the world don’t have that same kind of “inside knowledge.” That the secret handshake reveals not the face of God but the face of religion.

Over time I’ve made concession after concession with my brain, you can almost see them over time if you dig through the thousand posts I’ve made here. From non-Christian theist, to deist, to agnostic, and at this point I’m the closest to calling myself an atheist than I’ve ever been. I’ve lived as though there were no God for a long time though.

I was a member of the local UU church for nearly four years, but that soured on me as well and I just recently rescinded my membership. In that church there’s a lot of talk with little action, a heaping helping of (non-Christian) woo woo, and a whole lot of angry (ex)Christians.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by shawmutt

They interviewed a guy who was a mentalist and skeptic, and worked his way into the inner circles of psychics. Long story short, he said the really good folks knew they were all playing a game, and there were a lot of winks and nudges that went on. I have a hard time believing that the religious leaders of the world don’t have that same kind of “inside knowledge.” That the secret handshake reveals not the face of God but the face of religion.

Over time I’ve made concession after concession with my brain, you can almost see them over time if you dig through the thousand posts I’ve made here. From non-Christian theist, to deist, to agnostic, and at this point I’m the closest to calling myself an atheist than I’ve ever been. I’ve lived as though there were no God for a long time though.

I was a member of the local UU church for nearly four years, but that soured on me as well and I just recently rescinded my membership. In that church there’s a lot of talk with little action, a heaping helping of (non-Christian) woo woo, and a whole lot of angry (ex)Christians.

I understand exactly what you mean. A few things that helped me along the way was 1. I gave up being angry that I had wasted x number of years following after something that was illusion because I realized that most people spend their entire life following illusions! I was actually lucky! 2. I gave up the need to label myself. People get really uncomfortable if you refuse to tell them what church, religion, or philisophy you belong to or don't belong to. They want to know so they can judge you to see if you are one of "us" or one of "them." I happen to like a lot of the things I read in Buddhism. I also enjoy different aspects of many different philosophies. I do not mind discussing aspects of what I like and don't like. But I am not going to label myself a "buddhist" or an "existentialist" or an anything. Because to do so invites people who do not share these views to find the weakest point and force you to defend it. I have a friend who does this to me and he gets so upset when I call stupid, stupid- even if it is within a philosophy I otherwise admire. To label myself means I have found "it" and so now I can stop looking. I don't ever plan to arrive, so I will enjoy the journey. I don't have to have a position on everything. So don't label yourself. You are a free person with a brain that does not know everything. Maybe this year you believe in god (just hopefully not YHWH) and next year you don't. Allow yourself to change in whatever way you want and on your timeline. And 3. I decided that I was going to be authentically "me"- which meant that I was ok with people not liking "me" because I was not conforming to the perception they had of me. How many people do you know that you could say anything you wanted and you would not be judged or told you shouldn't believe this way or that way? I personally have a total of one. Be who you are right now and you will discover who your true friends are. This is amazingly liberating! It takes SO much energy to maintain someone elses expectations for how you should believe and act. I think it was Oscar Wilde who said "Most people are somebody else."

Sorry to be so long winded!

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Children know the truth. Children know that it is insane to order someone to torture and murder their own rebellious children. You knew this as a child. What happened to you to cloud your good judgment since then? Why is it now ok for YHWH to command this and it somehow is not insane?

Here is what the John gill commentary says,

Originally Posted by Gill

. . .and according to the Targum of Jonathan,

``if he feared (God, and showed any token of repentance) and received instruction, and they (his parents) desired to preserve him alive, they preserved him; but if he refused and was rebellious, then they stoned him;''

but the Jews say this law, and that of retaliation, were never put into execution:. . .

Like I said earlier, it was more of a threat, than anything else, meant to keep people aware of the possible repercussions to their actions.
I do not think my judgment is clouded. There are things I find disturbing to me in the Bible but I do not let it bother me too much. Some things are an artificial history, made long after the fact, for some reason or other, that was important at the time of the writing.
I feel bad for your personal experience in what was advertised to you as being Christian. I think it was a lot like the occult. That's my opinion and it has to do with being brought up in a very conservative and restrained church that was all about being holy and pure and had nothing to do with having a "religious experience". To us, that is just invoking the wrong spirits. So we would not even consider the Oral Roberts brand of religion, Christian at all. I wish I could give you some good advice, but am sorry to say that the demon spirit is inside all the denominations now. The only thing I can suggest is to find a small home sized church that is fundamentalist, and I don't mean being weird about the Bible, I mean people who read the Bible as an inspiration of what religion is supposed to be about. Which is, how to be a good person, and to notify others, as possible, about the good news that Jesus is sending his spirit into the world to help people be good.

[godless dave]

Any belief in "spirits" is an occult belief. ORUGrad's isn't any crazier than yours just because your spirits are nicer.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by godless dave

Any belief in "spirits" is an occult belief. ORUGrad's isn't any crazier than yours just because your spirits are nicer.

What? OK, well fine. I do not mean ORUGad's current belief, but the sort of thing evoked by the likes of Mr. Roberts. The church I grew up in did not have any kind of excitement. No loud speaking or calling on Jesus. It was how to be a good person and was a very quiet personal thing between you and God.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

gambling_cruiser "We are all humans with limited patience, limited frustration tolerance."

I do agree and understand. When I was a fundie, I was quite arrogant, prideful, and really an @$$. I don't ever want to be that way again. I do, however, have a friend who is quite "in your face" in his faith. For him, I don't soften the message. I don't ridicule him personally but I will "let er rip" with things like "So the god who commanded the Israelites to torture and murder their own children should they become rebellious- not to mention commiting infanticide and child rape of other nations- is the god you worship on Sunday morning?" Or, "So really your world view is the same as a Muslim terrorist, you simply call your gods by different names." I'm not doing it to "score points" or be "right." I care about him and he needs a loving slap or two in the face. For others, I will take a more softball approach if they really have not been challenged with why they believe what they believe. Once I pressed too hard with a girl who was deeply into "The Secret" and the Law of Attraction. She wasn't arrogant about it and I should have taken a lighter approach instead of poking hole after hole into her world view. She began to cry and I felt like a real jerk. It took me years of painful realizations before I made the change of worldview. I just know how damaging a fundamentalist Christian worldview can be and how much of life can be wasted trying to follow someone elses idea of what I should be doing with my life.


Thanks for the well wishes from everyone. You ARE making a real difference. Think of all the people who read your posts who never post themselves. This is my first thread and I have been reading here for over five years!

Hux "May I ask, did you have any real views on Hell? Did it frighten you? I ask because my exfundie mates tell me Hell was once an issue that scared them to death. When they let that one go, it became a lot easier."

Yes. Hell was a real place of burning flame forever- so I was taught. The "hell stick" was waved around if you questioned too hard. There were so so many reasons why I left this "faith". The whole thing is just not worthy of an omnibenevolent God. Jesus was obviously the plan B. The god of the OT just acted like a raving lunatic. I am supposed to want to praise this thing forever? I like a lot of the teachings of Jesus but the control, manipulation, and mythology that has bloomed around them is so destructive.

Behind the spiritual sounding language are these core teachings.

1. You cannot trust yourself. You need someone else to tell you what to do, say and believe.

2. Your mind is your enemy. It is the realm of the evil one. And he will deceive you if you let him.

3. You should only do god's will. Your will is opposed to god's will.

4. You are cursed and deserve death because of Adam and the bad apple.

5. God's anger is so great with you that he required the murder of his son in order for him to forgive you.

6. This gift of Christ actually only works if you "accept it" and believe he was god's son. If you are not sure or don't know or think it might not be true, then God will still be raging angry at you and you wont be "saved" from his wrath.

This of course produces a crapload of fear.

Vic Vega wrote: "I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part, however:

Originally Posted by ORUgrad
But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free.

"If some of these people want to be free, they have a funny way of showing it. I think YOU wanted to be free, but from what I've seen, many probably do not. "

What I meant is that I feel deep down, everyone wants to be free. Free from fear, death, God's wrath, whatever. In the midst of my arrogant fundamentalism, the real "me" was something different. Something not expressed. The religion was warping and destructive and my statements of faith were given to me by others. I believed them but the real "me" felt the anxienty and knew something was very wrong. I put on a good "game face". But the real me wanted answers. I really do believe all people know deep down that something is very wrong- whether they are conscious of it are not. I was as far gone as one could go. I have even worked the platform for Benny Hinn! And I got free. So I try not to identify what people say with who they are. I really want people to get free!

If any of you want to email me on here or privately, I would be happy to talk with you. I know intimately how many Christians think and would be happy to shed insights. Critical thinking is not taught in the Christian world I was in. It has to be learned painfully. We were literally told to "turn off your mind."


Peace

Call me a cynic, but I'm finding it very hard to believe that you are truly an MDiv graduate who refers to Adam and the apple. One of the first things you learn in even the most glancing examination of Genesis is that there is no apple ever mentioned. It's sort of scorned upon when people make this error.

As an atheist in the MDiv program? Eh color me a little skeptical here.

[SusanB-M1]

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Talking's often overrated, in my experience. Sometimes you just have to live with it. Or acknowledge it and watch the feelings come and go.

And reminding yourself that, whenever you think it is God, it is actually your own mind, evolved, intelligent and capable of every single one of those thoughts that can take all the credit.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by truethat

Call me a cynic, but I'm finding it very hard to believe that you are truly an MDiv graduate who refers to Adam and the apple. One of the first things you learn in even the most glancing examination of Genesis is that there is no apple ever mentioned. It's sort of scorned upon when people make this error.

As an atheist in the MDiv program? Eh color me a little skeptical here.

Ok, you Cynic! Yes I am aware that an "apple" is not mentioned. I was being lazy. My point was made however. I was NOT an atheist in seminary. I was a believer who deconverted after getting out. I am also aware that it was Eve who ate from the tree and then gave it to Adam. If you are expecting verbal perfection, you wont find it here. It is ok if you don't think I went to seminary. I wont get TOO upset.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

What? OK, well fine. I do not mean ORUGad's current belief, but the sort of thing evoked by the likes of Mr. Roberts. The church I grew up in did not have any kind of excitement. No loud speaking or calling on Jesus. It was how to be a good person and was a very quiet personal thing between you and God.

Right, but you still believed some kind of God existed.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by godless dave

Right, but you still believed some kind of God existed.

Apparently, I missed your point, or did not properly address it.
I think there is a spirit in the world that is from the Creator. I also believe that, for some reason, there is another spirit in the world, of the destroyer. The Creator spirit takes one form, but is found in may places. The destroyer is also found in may places, but in different forms. A form for every circumstance. In fact, there is one for the purpose of masquerading as being the Creator spirit. Some people are taken in by it. Some people are not. Our buddy, ORUGrad, is one that was not taken in by the destroyer. Good for him.

[shawmutt]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Apparently, I missed your point, or did not properly address it.
I think there is a spirit in the world that is from the Creator. I also believe that, for some reason, there is another spirit in the world, of the destroyer. The Creator spirit takes one form, but is found in may places. The destroyer is also found in may places, but in different forms. A form for every circumstance. In fact, there is one for the purpose of masquerading as being the Creator spirit. Some people are taken in by it. Some people are not. Our buddy, ORUGrad, is one that was not taken in by the destroyer. Good for him.

So you're a Hindu?

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Apparently, I missed your point, or did not properly address it.
I think there is a spirit in the world that is from the Creator. I also believe that, for some reason, there is another spirit in the world, of the destroyer. The Creator spirit takes one form, but is found in may places. The destroyer is also found in may places, but in different forms. A form for every circumstance. In fact, there is one for the purpose of masquerading as being the Creator spirit. Some people are taken in by it. Some people are not. Our buddy, ORUGrad, is one that was not taken in by the destroyer. Good for him.

And how do you know that you weren't taken in by the destroyer?

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Apparently, I missed your point, or did not properly address it.
I think there is a spirit in the world that is from the Creator. I also believe that, for some reason, there is another spirit in the world, of the destroyer. The Creator spirit takes one form, but is found in may places. The destroyer is also found in may places, but in different forms. A form for every circumstance. In fact, there is one for the purpose of masquerading as being the Creator spirit. Some people are taken in by it. Some people are not. Our buddy, ORUGrad, is one that was not taken in by the destroyer. Good for him.

This all sounds like the occult to me.

[Niggle]

Originally Posted by Hux

Niggle, it would do you more good to talk about these unnecessary fears of worthlessness than anything else; especially if you cannot convince yourself.

Once, as Orugrad understood, you jettison these unsupported fears, your life can take on new meanings, free of these medieval notions that haunt you. Catholicism had made a career out of making its adherents feel like crap about themselves. Contrary to what another claimed on here, its not just the Calvinists that think themselves unworthy.

You gotta let it go. Talk about it.

Thanks for your concern, Hux. I understand the problem, which does help, but I'm unable to afford the therapy I need right now (no job and no medical coverage). I'm not comfortable talking about it on an internet forum, but I am making some progress still.

[Niggle]

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Talking's often overrated, in my experience. Sometimes you just have to live with it. Or acknowledge it and watch the feelings come and go.

Talking has helped immensely, but only once I was talking to the right people (those who could actually help). Also, talk is worthless without followup action. Changing the language you use can help change the thought patterns behind it, too.

Um, we're getting pretty OT here. Should we start a new thread about it, or is this enough?

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Here is what the John gill commentary says,
Like I said earlier, it was more of a threat, than anything else, meant to keep people aware of the possible repercussions to their actions.
I do not think my judgment is clouded. There are things I find disturbing to me in the Bible but I do not let it bother me too much.].

Well my friend, all Christians must do this to keep themselves from the realization that the god they worship on Sunday morning is a mental creation that has nothing to do with YHWH from the Old Testament who was the monster we have already discussed (a fictitious monster). I suppose it was more important to believe the truth about this even though it made me "feel" bad, than to continue to believe a lie because it made me feel good.


[/quote]Some things are an artificial history, made long after the fact, for some reason or other, that was important at the time of the writing.
I feel bad for your personal experience in what was advertised to you as being Christian. I think it was a lot like the occult. That's my opinion and it has to do with being brought up in a very conservative and restrained church that was all about being holy and pure and had nothing to do with having a "religious experience". To us, that is just invoking the wrong spirits. So we would not even consider the Oral Roberts brand of religion, Christian at all. I wish I could give you some good advice, but am sorry to say that the demon spirit is inside all the denominations now. The only thing I can suggest is to find a small home sized church that is fundamentalist, and I don't mean being weird about the Bible, I mean people who read the Bible as an inspiration of what religion is supposed to be about. Which is, how to be a good person, and to notify others, as possible, about the good news that Jesus is sending his spirit into the world to help people be good.[/quote]

I'm not sure how you keep all of this straight in your head and determine what is true and what isn't. If you can dismiss much of the Bible as a "things that disturb you but you don't pay much attention to", why not just jettison the whole "YHWH is god" concept all together? I mean, don't you functionally do this already? You ignore the horror in the OT and just worship god as if he is a good, loving, parent right? Do you need Jesus to help you be good? Or do you decide to be good?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by shawmutt

So you're a Hindu?

No. But I suppose it could be possible for a person raised as a Hindu to somehow cut through the clutter and find the form of the Creator in an understanding of what God really is.