first post and word of thanks from former fundie

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

And how do you know that you weren't taken in by the destroyer?

I know how God has worked in my life in miraculous ways. It has nothing to do with screaming and crying and calling forth Jesus, and feelings of ecstasy.
It is quiet and subdued, but irresistible and gives peace.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by godless dave

This all sounds like the occult to me.

If you think anything involving the supernatural is occult.
I don't think finding the real God has to be done only through a formula that has to be taught. (it does help to have a few things explained to you, but it is something right out in the open)
Jesus said, "If someone tells you that I can be found in a hidden room, believe him not."

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Well my friend, all Christians must do this to keep themselves from the realization that the god they worship on Sunday morning is a mental creation that has nothing to do with YHWH from the Old Testament who was the monster we have already discussed (a fictitious monster). I suppose it was more important to believe the truth about this even though it made me "feel" bad, than to continue to believe a lie because it made me feel good.

Which one is fictitious, or does that matter to you? If it is all in people's heads, how does that make God evil? What if everything in the OT that makes God look bad are the fake parts? That would be throwng the baby out with the bathwater. You need to break completely free from people's influince on you before you can find your own understanding.

Quote:

I'm not sure how you keep all of this straight in your head and determine what is true and what isn't. If you can dismiss much of the Bible as a "things that disturb you but you don't pay much attention to", why not just jettison the whole "YHWH is god" concept all together? I mean, don't you functionally do this already? You ignore the horror in the OT and just worship god as if he is a good, loving, parent right? Do you need Jesus to help you be good? Or do you decide to be good?

Who are the twelve tribes? How did they get there and where did they come from and how is the fact that there are twelve, significant?
These are important questions, and I don't mean, to us. They were important to the people living there and especially when it came time for the exiled to go back to where they came from. Were they really from there? How did they have more of a right to be there than the people they found upon their return. Answers were needed and needed now and ones that gave them clear title to the land, good enough for the imperial powers that be.
And that is what you want to use to determine if there is a God, or not? You need to wake up to the world around you and get out of the delusion you have been under. Satan does not want to let go of you so soon.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I know how God has worked in my life in miraculous ways. It has nothing to do with screaming and crying and calling forth Jesus, and feelings of ecstasy.
It is quiet and subdued, but irresistible and gives peace.

But...how do you know that it wasn't the Destroyer who did all that just to sucker you away from true salvation?

[Hux]

Quote:

If you think anything involving the supernatural is occult.

In as much as they are both unseen. But you don't get to make a definition of 'supernatural' just so it suits you. If there is a supernatural we should be able to to sense all supernatural and not those special pleadings. We don't see Werewolves, Zombies, Vampires, Unicorns, fairys and what have you. These are elements of the human imagination. Just like the zombie you think you have special knowledge of.

[RSLancastr]

ORUGrad, cngrats. it could not have been easy. know that we are here for you if you need support on your new path.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

But...how do you know that it wasn't the Destroyer who did all that just to sucker you away from true salvation?

I think it would have been working to destroy me. Not working to save me. Unless you think that the destroyer was not so interested in physically destroying me, but wanted me to live long enough for me to forsake God, and then I could be destroyed, spiritually. Have a go at that.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I think it would have been working to destroy me. Not working to save me. Unless you think that the destroyer was not so interested in physically destroying me, but wanted me to live long enough for me to forsake God, and then I could be destroyed, spiritually. Have a go at that.



bolding added

Exactly my point. How do you know that you're not following the Destroyer and being set up for a fall? I doubt many people would follow the Destroyer if he didn't make their lives better initially, ya know?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Hux

In as much as they are both unseen. But you don't get to make a definition of 'supernatural' just so it suits you. If there is a supernatural we should be able to to sense all supernatural and not those special pleadings. We don't see Werewolves, Zombies, Vampires, Unicorns, fairys and what have you. These are elements of the human imagination. Just like the zombie you think you have special knowledge of.

I think I made one post over on the "I am not going to argue religion" thread. I had a difficult time defining what exactly is supernatural. Since my definition was so far off from everyone else's view, I declined from making any further posts on that thread. What you would call supernatural, I would (in agreement with the Coast to Coast definition) think of as being on the fringe of the natural.
According to my understanding of Occult, it would involve the knowing, and making use of, secret names for spiritual entities, be they good or bad. I do not believe in that, and the name of Jesus is known far and wide.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

Exactly my point. How do you know that you're not following the Destroyer and being set up for a fall? I doubt many people would follow the Destroyer if he didn't make their lives better initially, ya know?

I already believed in Jesus, so apparently, for me to fall, would involve my stopping to believe in him.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I think I made one post over on the "I am not going to argue religion" thread. I had a difficult time defining what exactly is supernatural. Since my definition was so far off from everyone else's view, I declined from making any further posts on that thread. What you would call supernatural, I would (in agreement with the Coast to Coast definition) think of as being on the fringe of the natural.
According to my understanding of Occult, it would involve the knowing, and making use of, secret names for spiritual entities, be they good or bad. I do not believe in that, and the name of Jesus is known far and wide.

Well, realistically, anything that's not natural is supernatural...so...fringe of natural is leaning towards supernatural...

(besides, haven't we discussed Coast to Coast's reliability before?)

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I already believed in Jesus, so apparently, for me to fall, would involve my stopping to believe in him.

Unless you've been deceived by the destroyer into thinking Jesus was the route to salvation when it was really some other way. We could do this for eternity, though, couldn't we? You don't have any way of knowing you aren't barking up the wrong tree about all this than anyone else. The difference between having faith and having an opinion is honesty.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Unless you've been deceived by the destroyer into thinking Jesus was the route to salvation when it was really some other way. We could do this for eternity, though, couldn't we? You don't have any way of knowing you aren't barking up the wrong tree about all this than anyone else. The difference between having faith and having an opinion is honesty.

Took the words right of my mouth.

[Hux]

Quote:

I had a difficult time defining what exactly is supernatural.

I don't think many others do. Its only a problem of definition when you need to cherry pick it.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

(besides, haven't we discussed Coast to Coast's reliability before?)

I'm not using that to bolster my argument. I just don't want to be plagiarising. I pick up little concepts, here and there and incorporate them into what I write. I don't want to take credit for something as obvious as that, where it is pretty much word for word out of George Noory's mouth.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I'm not using that to bolster my argument. I just don't want to be plagiarising. I pick up little concepts, here and there and incorporate them into what I write. I don't want to take credit for something as obvious as that, where it is pretty much word for word out of George Noory's mouth.

And while that is to be commended, it does not mean that what is said on that program is more reliable. Just because it comes across the radio waves does not make it true. We've had this problem before, Eth. Your methods for determining what to accept as true and incorporate into your beliefs are quite suspect (recall the discussion regarding the Health Care proposals - you admitted that you were more interested in what pundits claim the proposals do than in reading the actual proposals to find out).

What really appears to happen is that you hear something supporting/fitting what you want to believe and then you incorporate that into your belief system and claim that it's now a belief with evidence.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

And while that is to be commended, it does not mean that what is said on that program is more reliable. Just because it comes across the radio waves does not make it true. We've had this problem before, Eth. Your methods for determining what to accept as true and incorporate into your beliefs are quite suspect (recall the discussion regarding the Health Care proposals - you admitted that you were more interested in what pundits claim the proposals do than in reading the actual proposals to find out).

Oh come on. There are five current versions of the bill and the Senate just came out with one twice the size as the original bill. And I am supposed to read all that? I got sick of arguing with people who support it, without reading it either. So if Obama gets in front of the camera and reads from his teleprompter, Everything will be fine if you vote the way I tell you, then you just buy it? How am I any more foolish than you or anyone else?

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Oh come on. There are five current versions of the bill and the Senate just came out with one twice the size as the original bill. And I am supposed to read all that? I got sick of arguing with people who support it, without reading it either. So if Obama gets in front of the camera and reads from his teleprompter, Everything will be fine if you vote the way I tell you, then you just buy it? How am I any more foolish than you or anyone else?

You don't need to read the entire bill. Perhaps just the sections that are in contention - e.g. the section where coverage is provided for end-of-life counseling.

The point remains, Eth. You make no real attempt to even listen with a critical ear, nor to further your knowledge on the subject beyond what satisfies what you want to believe and you continue to cite sources that you have been shown are highly suspect.

I fear that you do not see the darkness in which you stumble around and I am simply attempting to draw you to the light


ETA: By "draw you to the light," I mean "encourage you to think critically."

[Ethnikos]

What I want is the happy talk that the candidate, Obama, was sying.
Not what we have left after the HMO's, Pharmaceuticals, and Insurance companies got though with it, which is nothing, zero.

correction: Less than zero, with Medicare cuts.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

I fear that you do not see the darkness in which you stumble around and I am simply attempting to draw you to the light


ETA: By "draw you to the light," I mean "encourage you to think critically."

I guess I must just think that I am special.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

What I want is the happy talk baloney that the candidate, Obama politician, was sying.
Not what we have left after the HMO's, Pharmaceuticals, and Insurance companies got though with it, which is nothing, zero.

correction: Less than zero, with Medicare cuts.

so what youre saying is that you aren't just gullible enough to believe a 2500 year old collection of fairy tales

but that you also believe what politicians say when theyre running for election

my thats pretty amusing right there

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

What I want is the happy talk that the candidate, Obama, was sying.
Not what we have left after the HMO's, Pharmaceuticals, and Insurance companies got though with it, which is nothing, zero.

correction: Less than zero, with Medicare cuts.

Ok, I think we've gone far enough off topic with the healthcare issue. I wasn't attempting to discuss healthcare, Eth. I was making a point about credibility of sources and the need for critical thinking.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I guess I must just think that I am special.

This could be sarcasm...but I'm going to choose to take it at face value and state that acknowledging the problem (or at least part of it) is the first step to solving the problem, so progress is being made

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

This could be sarcasm...but I'm going to choose to take it at face value and state that acknowledging the problem (or at least part of it) is the first step to solving the problem, so progress is being made

I don't know. I get accused of that a lot. Maybe I think that God protects me from being sucked into falsity, if that is a word. Or maybe I do think to a certain extent. I probably seem way out there but I don't seem to get in trouble from it, other than being a subject of ridicule in a discussion. Well, thanks for your concern. I don't think anyone here wishes me ill. I have the same sort of concern for others that you exhibit towards me. I don't mean anyone ill, either.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I don't know. I get accused of that a lot. Maybe I think that God protects me from being sucked into falsity,

nope, in fact I can state categorically that your God frequently pushes you into falsity and has done, since the first moment you started believing in him
thats what he does
all the time

you'll find out I guess
then I get to shout "I told you so" at your funeral

[BobTheDonkey]

But how do you know that your belief in god hasn't merely deluded you to the truth of the real world around you?

Eth, the beauty of the world that you attribute to a god is so much more amazing and beautiful when you accept that it wasn't made by anybody - that nature, in it's own right, is indeed the most beautiful show on Earth (to borrow Dawkins' thunder...)

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

nope, in fact I can state categorically that your God frequently pushes you into falsity and has done, since the first moment you started believing in him
thats what he does
all the time

you'll find out I guess
then I get to shout "I told you so" at your funeral

I feel a little bit bad about wrecking ORUGrad's thread.
I don't see it as the way you describe it. I was born with a knowledge of God, so I don't hardly feel like a believer, as in the ordinary use of the word. I don't feel like I am alone in this because I have a sister who is just like that too. This is one reason why I have no fear of discussing religion. It is almost as if it is completely out of the scope of my concern. I do not base my faith in religion because I have a direct link to God. That probably sounds insane but it is not some sort of magic or voices or anything like that. I just know, and for some reason, never forgot. We were all with God before we were born, as spirits, and another thing, we actually volunteered to be here. Some people I guess have a choice or something and I guess one option is whether or not you remember anything that happened before you became a person. I think what most people do is take the third choice, which is, I will remember some of it for a certain length of time, and then decide if I want it to just fade away, as an unnecessary encumbrance to life.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I feel a little bit bad about wrecking ORUGrad's thread.

On the contrary you are a living example of why hes so relieved and a classic example of why he changed his opinion, you are the illustration to his OP in this thread

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I don't see it as the way you describe it. I was born with a knowledge of God, so I don't hardly feel like a believer, as in the ordinary use of the word. I don't feel like I am alone in this because I have a sister who is just like that too.

so I'm guessing that your parents arent atheists then

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

This is one reason why I have no fear of discussing religion. It is almost as if it is completely out of the scope of my concern. I do not base my faith in religion because I have a direct link to God. That probably sounds insane

Yes it does, you sound just like Dani El, any impending doom we should know about ?

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

but it is not some sort of magic or voices or anything like that. I just know, and for some reason, never forgot.

do you think that your belief is somehow valid when all you have is your belief

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

We were all with God before we were born, as spirits, and another thing, we actually volunteered to be here.

Oh I'm sorry I had mistaken you for a christian, they dont believe in reincarnation yanno,

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Some people I guess have a choice or something and I guess one option is whether or not you remember anything that happened before you became a person.

My memory says you got this wrong.

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I think what most people do is take the third choice, which is, I will remember some of it for a certain length of time, and then decide if I want it to just fade away, as an unnecessary encumbrance to life.

do you also believe that spirits that talk to John Edwards can only remember their initials ?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

so I'm guessing that your parents arent atheists then

That could be another possibility, I suppose.
If you have older siblings, and while you were in the womb, you are sitting there listening to your mother tell them all about God. Somehow your little fetal mind takes it all in and becomes an unborn believer.
Kind of ruins my story, if that is true.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

That could be another possibility, I suppose.
If you have older siblings, and while you were in the womb, you are sitting there listening to your mother tell them all about God. Somehow your little fetal mind takes it all in and becomes an unborn believer.
Kind of ruins my story, if that is true.

Belief in a god, as with any belief, is a choice you make. You make that choice every single day. Some people choose to believe regardless of whether it's justifiable or not (here's a hint: you have admitted that your belief is grounds for being labeled insane, and yet you persist in believing in a completely unproven set of beliefs), some people choose to change their belief system based on critical thinking.

[willhaven]

I believe that you never see the fruits of your labor in debates within one thread. You argue your point and come to the end of the line and plant a seed of doubt. Something that makes the guy on the other side question what he believes. That's how I got here. I was a Christian for over a decade and spent the last 4-5 years in various states of questioning, disbelief or making excuses for my religion.

I never expect to get a "you're right" from anyone. I just like to beat them up over the same talking points and try to get them to explain themselves until they give up. That's the fun part. :]

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by willhaven

I believe that you never see the fruits of your labor in debates within one thread.

I used to post over on a Christian forum. There was this guy there who had a particular belief based on a single verse in the Bible. No matter what people would post about, he would jump in and force the person to answer if they believe in that verse the way he did. Of course, I debated the guy for months because I thought he was not an idiot exactly but some sort of problem with understanding anything he didn't think up himself.
Well, the point of this story is that the guy won. I went back a while ago and the place is dead, compared to what it was two years ago. (he's still there) I imagine people got sick of it and found other forums to go to. So, you don't win debates by beating people up, you just end up being the last man standing, since you find yourself alone.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by RSLancastr

ORUGrad, cngrats. it could not have been easy. know that we are here for you if you need support on your new path.

Thank you so much RS. I'm sure I will continue to learn and grow. I am very thankful to have a free mind. And look forward to even more light.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

Belief in a god, as with any belief, is a choice you make. You make that choice every single day. Some people choose to believe regardless of whether it's justifiable or not (here's a hint: you have admitted that your belief is grounds for being labeled insane, and yet you persist in believing in a completely unproven set of beliefs), some people choose to change their belief system based on critical thinking.

I'm a living example of your post Bob. I had all kinds of crazy beliefs which didn;t seem crazy since most people around me also believed such things. As Dan Barker says, I didn't lose my faith, I gave it up willingly. It wasn't ME that was crazy. It was my beliefs.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by willhaven

I believe that you never see the fruits of your labor in debates within one thread. You argue your point and come to the end of the line and plant a seed of doubt. Something that makes the guy on the other side question what he believes. That's how I got here. I was a Christian for over a decade and spent the last 4-5 years in various states of questioning, disbelief or making excuses for my religion.

I never expect to get a "you're right" from anyone. I just like to beat them up over the same talking points and try to get them to explain themselves until they give up. That's the fun part. :]

I made this point I think in my OP. Glad to see another person get free.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I used to post over on a Christian forum. There was this guy there who had a particular belief based on a single verse in the Bible. No matter what people would post about, he would jump in and force the person to answer if they believe in that verse the way he did. Of course, I debated the guy for months because I thought he was not an idiot exactly but some sort of problem with understanding anything he didn't think up himself.
Well, the point of this story is that the guy won. I went back a while ago and the place is dead, compared to what it was two years ago. (he's still there) I imagine people got sick of it and found other forums to go to. So, you don't win debates by beating people up, you just end up being the last man standing, since you find yourself alone.

Some things are really foundational. If you oppose torture, rape, genocide, infanticide, and forced abortions, but you claim to worship a god who commanded such things, you are suffering from classic Orwellian doublethink- that is - holding two opposing viewpoints simultaneously in your mind while claiming to believe both. If you think about this one example for any length of time, you will eventually lose your faith in such a god. You must at least conclude that you oppose such things even though your god approved of such things. And since he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and does not change (as the infallible Bible says), you must conclude that he still approves of such. So is the Christian God really "Christian"?

This is the one issue that will bring the most pain to the "believer" if they will allow themselves to think. The contrast is so huge,it just isn't possible to explain it all away and be even halfway believeable.

[skullerello]

Hey, ORUgrad , This is "skullerelo" here. Just want to add my welcome-to-the- forums message here like everyone else who hasn't tried to bust your chops on OT vs NT dogma.
I have been a life-long "heathen", I grew up in a remote part of North-America called Wisconsin and I was the product of an American male Lutheran WWII veteran of German heritage who married the daughter of Italian immigrants, and my mother was excommunicated from her Catholic church, because she married a man who'd been divorced. (period) Now, granted, that's a very stupid reason for trying to drive down the number of your attending parrishoneers, but, that's the way they did things things back then, and the CHURCH still behaves that way today.
My wife's church didn't want to marry us becaause we wanted to have our ceremony down by the river ...
Regardless, she and I got married. She's completely bat-(rule 8) insane, but I still love her. I have lots of friends who belong to different churches, and among them, several members of different clergies, one of whom gave us the wicked aspices to be married, and that's why I'm writing you tonight.
I'm happy to read your posts.
Religion is an "oppiate for the masses" ; however, it divides us as a people instead of uniting us as a species on a tiny globe which we all inhabit.
That may have been religion's primary function, but thru' the centuries, we've left it6 to do just the oppositeriers, We are your gods; your gods are us, and we're making a mess of this whole situation. ORUgrad
Scholar
as a IScholar

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

That could be another possibility, I suppose.
If you have older siblings, and while you were in the womb, you are sitting there listening to your mother tell them all about God. Somehow your little fetal mind takes it all in and becomes an unborn believer.
Kind of ruins my story, if that is true.

my memory as a human goes back to when I was 6 months old, I remember the old house I lived in before we moved, I am told this is exceptional

whats the earliest age you remember ?

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I feel a little bit bad about wrecking ORUGrad's thread.
I don't see it as the way you describe it. I was born with a knowledge of God, so I don't hardly feel like a believer, as in the ordinary use of the word. I don't feel like I am alone in this because I have a sister who is just like that too.

Ah tes, an unproven assertion is the basis of everything else.

What were you raised by a robot?

Quote:

This is one reason why I have no fear of discussing religion. It is almost as if it is completely out of the scope of my concern. I do not base my faith in religion because I have a direct link to God.

You have an opinion, a belief, it could be a space alien or your imagination.

Quote:

That probably sounds insane but it is not some sort of magic or voices or anything like that.

Sure it is.

Quote:

I just know, and for some reason, never forgot. We were all with God before we were born, as spirits, and another thing, we actually volunteered to be here.

Sure. ,ore opinion.

Quote:

Some people I guess have a choice or something and I guess one option is whether or not you remember anything that happened before you became a person.

And an Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Quote:

I think what most people do is take the third choice, which is, I will remember some of it for a certain length of time, and then decide if I want it to just fade away, as an unnecessary encumbrance to life.

Uh sure, iiiiiimmmaginaaaaaation.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Some things are really foundational. If you oppose torture, rape, genocide, infanticide, and forced abortions, but you claim to worship a god who commanded such things, you are suffering from classic Orwellian doublethink- that is - holding two opposing viewpoints simultaneously in your mind while claiming to believe both. If you think about this one example for any length of time, you will eventually lose your faith in such a god. You must at least conclude that you oppose such things even though your god approved of such things. And since he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and does not change (as the infallible Bible says), you must conclude that he still approves of such. So is the Christian God really "Christian"?

This is the one issue that will bring the most pain to the "believer" if they will allow themselves to think. The contrast is so huge,it just isn't possible to explain it all away and be even halfway believeable.

Well it seems to me that what you say is true for some people: not, I think, for Ethnikos.

You say that decent people oppose such things as genocide, infanticide, and rape etc. I agree

You say that to the believer, God commanded such things

You conclude that anyone who worships God suffers a contradiction which cannot be resolved.

As far as I understand Ethnikos's position he resolves it by refusing the idea that God ever commanded such things in the first place. He does recognise the problem, and on this board he has shown a number of strategies for resolving it.

For example Ethnikos tries to study the bible in hebrew and he seeks to demonstrate that it can be read to mean something quite other than the usual translations suggest: so god did not command us to do bad things: that is an error.

Again Ethnikos is suspicious of many of the religious organisations and heirarchies: they seek to distort god's word for their own purposes and so they promote false translations and wrong readings. It is not clear to me whether this is because they are controlled by Satan or whether it is a matter of the pursuit of secular power. No matter.

With both of the above Ethnikos seems to say that the bible is the word of god: it has been distorted, but we have the possibility of finding the true word if we try hard as individuals.

But at other times he seems to say that it is not the word of god at all. So, for example, he has argued that the bible is the ideological justification for the actions of an ancient people: a bit like a version of history written by apologists after one of any people's more reprehensible actions. At those times he seems to say it is not the word of god at all: it is more like a national narrative.

I have had a lot of trouble getting to grips with Ethnikos's actual position because of these apparent contradictions: and i can only think that he believes in a mixture of those things, so that there are some parts of he bible not worth study for they are merely false history for political ends; and other parts which are worth study because they are the word of god but falsely represented.

I am sorry if this is not correct Ethinikos but I do honestly find it hard to grasp your position and this is my best shot

If that is anything like correct, then what people have been asking you to show is how you tell the difference between those things which are accessible of a correct translation and those which are nothing to do with god and so not worth pursuing.

The answer seems to be that you have a direct link to god and you know his nature: so you know what he would and would not do and, and you can determine what is true from that. You seem to apply that same certainty to everything you hear and read. This is what people mean by filtering through your preconceptions. There is nothing here but what you choose to believe of your God.

There is nothing wrong with that, IMO. But what puzzles me is why you go to all the trouble you do with your translations and such. Since you are necessarily going to arrive at your starting point the journey seems pointless: though if it is akin to going for a circular walk for exercise, then by all means carry on.