first post and word of thanks from former fundie

[ORUgrad]

Hi Fiona! Actually, Eth will deny such things are in the Bible. When I then show him, he will come up with an impossible interpretation of what the text could mean or say things like "Well it says to rape women, not girls." As if it is ok to rape as long as the woman is over 13 or so. Eth is not my primary target because he has an esoteric and eclectic view of Christianity that makes it difficult to know where he is coming from. With former fundie's like me, there is an absolute belief that the Bible is the word of God and therefor infallible. Therefor, pointing out such contrasts in my above post will cause much internal pain for someone with such a dogmatic view of the Bible. There just isn't anywhere for them to move. Doublethink is quite painful to think about.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Hi Fiona! Actually, Eth will deny such things are in the Bible. When I then show him, he will come up with an impossible interpretation of what the text could mean or say things like "Well it says to rape women, not girls." As if it is ok to rape as long as the woman is over 13 or so. Eth is not my primary target because he has an esoteric and eclectic view of Christianity that makes it difficult to know where he is coming from. With former fundie's like me, there is an absolute belief that the Bible is the word of God and therefor infallible. Therefor, pointing out such contrasts in my above post will cause much internal pain for someone with such a dogmatic view of the Bible. There just isn't anywhere for them to move. Doublethink is quite painful to think about.

The doublethink leads to apologetics...which in a very severe and unique form is what Eth does. When it comes to passages Eth doesn't agree with/like, he/she twists the original Hebrew to make the Bible say something more palatable. That's apologetics the same as any other brand of Christian apologetics.

Just because it's not the form of apologetics we're used to seeing does not mean it's something other than apologetics.

This is why I continue to ask Eth how he/she knows for certain that it is god he's following, instead of the Destroyer.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

This is why I continue to ask Eth how he/she knows for certain that it is god he's following, instead of the Destroyer.

does it matter which fictional character he follows ?
if so may I suggest he follow Homer Simpson, in all the time I've known him, hes never let me down

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

With former fundie's like me, there is an absolute belief that the Bible is the word of God and therefor infallible.

The Bible is infallible concerning our development of character. We should take it as if it was a wise friend, who is our mentor, teaching us how to be good.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

The Bible is infallible concerning our development of character. We should take it as if it was a wise friend, who is our mentor, teaching us how to be good.

Then, you believe murder, rape, and pillage are all acceptable behavior?

ETA: And, really, not just acceptable behavior, but encouraged behavior?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you and introduce myself. I grew up in a strict fundamentalist home, went to Christian private school from K-graduate school, did mission work in Africa, and received an M.Div from Oral Roberts University. I have seen many of the "faith" ministries up close and personal. I started losing faith in the Bible god at the end of my undergrad program in Biblical Studies where "the Bible is infallible" gets proven quite otherwise very quickly. By the end of seminary, I had lost complete faith in the OT god. As I am opposed to child rape, torture, and murder (among a great many other things the OT god commanded), I came to the realization that if this violent war god was really the creator, we were all screwed. Such a god cannot be pleased. And pretending like he "loves" me and I "love" him was just a lie. Living forever praising such a beast would be hell, not heaven. I came to the realization that the "good news" was really "bad news" and that the claims of Christianity are largely non-sensical. This took many years of patient deconstructing by professors and kind non believers.

Now to the word of thanks and encouragement. I know many of you get frustrated by believers who can't seem to see what you see and you might wonder why you should bother even discussing religion with someone who seems arrogant, blind, and intolerant of your views.

I am here to say that it was the patience of many kind non believers like many of you on this very site that helped me to escape. It is extremely difficult to escape such heavy, fearful brainwashing from birth. The arrogance of many believers masks deeply held fear and insecurity. Changing your worldview is a difficult and painful experience. I believe Bill Maher when he says religion warps thinking. It is very true. Blind obedient faith is valued. Thinking for one's self is seen almost as evil if it differs from the party line. Friends you thought would be there for life suddenly cannot handle the new questions and decide that satan has taken you over. So they leave without a word. It really is a nasty experience. I realized that in the Christian world view, free will is talked about and valued but no one really has it. What good is free will if you are punished for all eternity for going against what "god wants." If I had free will, why then was I always praying to know what god's will was? And why was it so hard to hear from god? So god gave me a brain that knows how to evaluate information but really wants me to be a robot for Jesus? Why was believing the right things more important that being the right person?

Many of you that take your time to patiently dialogue with believers are having an impact. You might not see it immediately or ever. But be encouraged. I know it is easy to write people off as blind, arrogant idiots. But behind all that ego is a very scared person who has had his or her brain screwed over by religion and wants to be free. If you respond kindly to their harshness, your words have so much more impact.

I know what it is like to be deeply into darkness that everyone around you calls "light." I was as deeply into fundasmentalism as one could get- from birth. And yet now I am very thankful to be free. And I just wanted to express my gratitude on this forum.

I see my former friends suffering greatly. I know the way out of the woods but they are not yet ready to follow me out. Hopefully one day.

Peace,

I'm a little late here, but welcome, and congratulations.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Moochie, thanks for your insightful posts here. I would add that one thing I have noticed about my own religious upbringing is that it sought to tell me I could not trust myself and that someone else knew what was best for me. And it taught me that my will was evil and I needed to pray to know god's will. So it essentially taught me to not be "myself". Rather, be what someone else wanted me to be. Be an empty conduit for god to "use" as he saw fit! And we wonder why people have such a hard time being authentic?!? Sounds like a great recipe for a psychosis to me.

It not only is a great recipe, but it's one that works, too. I cannot enumerate the number of grossly dysfunctional families I have met where their abject dysfunction was quite clearly centered on the presence of religion in their lives -- predominantly Christian religion, and I include my own family here. I don't think there's a one among my immediate family and close relatives who has escaped unscathed. The most appalling thing, to my mind, is how such families are able to assume a veneer of normalcy about them so that unless one were like them, or at least clued to the visible evidence, one wouldn't distinguish them from those who actually are sane and healthy.


M.

[Moochie]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

The doublethink leads to apologetics...which in a very severe and unique form is what Eth does. When it comes to passages Eth doesn't agree with/like, he/she twists the original Hebrew to make the Bible say something more palatable. That's apologetics the same as any other brand of Christian apologetics.

Just because it's not the form of apologetics we're used to seeing does not mean it's something other than apologetics.

This is why I continue to ask Eth how he/she knows for certain that it is god he's following, instead of the Destroyer.

I guess s/he does it in much the same way as a child might pull the blankets up over their head and believe they are thus protected from whatever frightens them at the time.


M.

[inquiringone]

Welcome! I am a theist, but recently had to stop all religious practices. I converted from born-again Christianity to paganism at age 21, then found myself getting too far with that, too. I kept finding myself quoting The Book of the Law (the Thelemite holy book) at other people, so I made myself stop all religious practices, no matter what the faith was. If I engage in any religious practice at all, I start going into religious-nut mode, which is not pretty regardless of the faith. I would put my religion above all else and try to force myself to conform to the party line at all times, because that was the only way I knew how to be religious. I still need to create a worldview that is not clogged up with religion.

Oddly enough, my parents never forced me to be religious. Indeed, they tried to discourage me from being batty, but I just went insane at age six and stayed that way on and off for the next twenty-six years.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by inquiringone

Welcome! I am a theist, but recently had to stop all religious practices. I converted from born-again Christianity to paganism at age 21, then found myself getting too far with that, too. I kept finding myself quoting The Book of the Law (the Thelemite holy book) at other people, so I made myself stop all religious practices, no matter what the faith was. If I engage in any religious practice at all, I start going into religious-nut mode, which is not pretty regardless of the faith. I would put my religion above all else and try to force myself to conform to the party line at all times, because that was the only way I knew how to be religious. I still need to create a worldview that is not clogged up with religion.

Oddly enough, my parents never forced me to be religious. Indeed, they tried to discourage me from being batty, but I just went insane at age six and stayed that way on and off for the next twenty-six years.

Wow, age six! What happened to you around that time to have influenced you so negatively? When you are crafting your world view, remember to always keep it "flexible". Think of yourself as always in process. People who live like they have figured it all out have the appearance of stability. But many times there is a deep underlying insecurity. And remember, it is OK NOT TO HAVE AN OPINION about something until YOU have had time to think for yourself, consider the options, and then pick the view or views that makes the most sense to you and is evidence based. No one philosophy by itself can account for all of the various phenomena of life. And there is no rule that says you have to pick only one. Take what works for you from one or several. Yes, what serves you today might not serve you in five years. When I was deconverting, I looked into many other spiritualities and tried a few on to see how they would fit. There are good things in many of them. None have been BS free. Refuse to label yourself. Remember, it is ok to be wrong. To be wrong means you are learning, recognize self error, and seek to correct. But making a religion out of anything leads to dogmatic, exclusive, and rigid thinking. You are the imperfect god of your life. That is why you have a brain. I am finally beginning to really use mine. Be flexible, and relax! Instead of giving the world a coke, I owuld like to give it a Xanex

The above advice is what I wish I had been taught instead of the useless crap that was masquerading as wisdom.

peace

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

So is the Christian God really "Christian"?

I think so.

Detail from Rembrandt's, "Christ Driving the Moneychangers from the Temple".

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I think so.

Not going to answer my question then ?

[Dysphemist]

I'm also a little late. Congratulations ORUgrad! Your kind of OP puts a smile on my face.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Marduk

Not going to answer my question then ?

You mean the painting by Rembrandt, one of the greatest artists of all time*, didn't answer your question?


*to borrow a line from Doc

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

You mean the painting by Rembrandt, one of the greatest artists of all time*, didn't answer your question?


*to borrow a line from Doc

in a word
No

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by geneeee

I'm also a little late. Congratulations ORUgrad! Your kind of OP puts a smile on my face.

That is why I wrote it. Thank YOU.

[ORUgrad]

Jesus and the money changers:

Christians like to say Jesus was fully god and fully human. Yet when it comes to the human aspect of JEsus, they think of his human side as just his physical body aparently. So they see everything JEsus did and said in the Bible as completely spiritual. So when his mother complains the wine has run out, and JEsus says to her "Woman, why are you bothering me with this?" or when he calls the Gentile woman a "dog" when she asks for healing of her son, or when he curses the fig tree for not having figs on it, or when he takes a whip and beats the money changers, these are seen as deeply spiritual lessons for us to meditate on. Perhaps Jesus as "fully human" was subjected to human shortcomings like impatience, anger, hunger, and ego? Heresy! I have yet to see anywhere where Christians can point to a single instance of Jesus showing his humanity. Why? Because they see the "human" side as sinful. And they don't want to infer that Jesus was sinful. So all of Jesus "human acts" were spiritualized.

And Eth, I don;t think a painting of Jesus driving out money changers rises to the level of the atrocities of YHWH.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Detail from Rembrandt's, "Christ Driving the Moneychangers from the Temple".

should be renamed "how to be convicted of violent assault"

[inquiringone]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Wow, age six! What happened to you around that time to have influenced you so negatively?
peace

I heard about original sin at church and went nuts. I already thought I was inferior to others, but wanted to know why it was. Voila! Church gave me the answer. Never mind that it was wrong. When you're six and an adult tells you something, you're apt to believe it. Of course, I was rather stupid and believed it for 15 years after that...

I am also the only person I know of who dragged her mom to church as a child! Mom would sometimes "kidnap" me and take me to the museum instead whenever I was getting off the deep end.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

my memory as a human goes back to when I was 6 months old, I remember the old house I lived in before we moved, I am told this is exceptional

whats the earliest age you remember ?

18 months when my brother was born.
That's probably the only significant thing to change around that time.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Jesus and the money changers:

Christians like to say Jesus was fully god and fully human. Yet when it comes to the human aspect of JEsus, they think of his human side as just his physical body aparently.

Statement 1: Jesus was fully god and fully human
Statement 2: his human side as just his physical body

If statement 2 was true, then statement 1 would be false.
Someone in the hypothetical "Christians" did not check their logic.
Not all Christians are so lame.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Statement 1: Jesus was fully god and fully human
Statement 2: his human side as just his physical body

If statement 2 was true, then statement 1 would be false.
Someone in the hypothetical "Christians" did not check their logic.
Not all Christians are so lame.

It isn't what you say, it is how you act that ultimately determins what you believe. I agree that Christians do not SAY the human side of Jesus was only his physical body. Yet that is how they behave. Nothing Jesus ever says in the Bible is looked upon other than spiritual- at least by fundamentalists.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

It isn't what you say, it is how you act that ultimately determins what you believe. I agree that Christians do not SAY the human side of Jesus was only his physical body. Yet that is how they behave. Nothing Jesus ever says in the Bible is looked upon other than spiritual- at least by fundamentalists.

The Gospel is nothing like a biography. It exists, not to explain what Jesus was really like, but to lay down a lot of concepts having to do with the spiritual. So you don't get much of the human side of the man.
For us, maybe the important thing is to understand the principle of indwelling divinity. Jesus is the ultimate example of that. We need to be like him, and have that in us, in order to be good. So there would be an emphasis on that aspect of Jesus' life.
Honestly, I'm mystified about what you are calling fundamentalism. From the description of it, it seems very foreign to me. To me, a fundamental belief is the ten commandments. That's just something that no matter how you interpret scripture, you just don't mess with it. Other than that, there shouldn't be a strict orthodoxy. Except, maybe what you are talking about. There are people introducing the heresy that Jesus had a sinful nature. To me, that would be just wrong and not something to be taught, for any reason. I think that would destroy the very foundation of Christianity. "The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in me."

[ORUgrad]

How can Jesus be fully human and not have a sinful nature since according to Christian teaching all humans are born with a sinful nature. What is sin? To the early Greeks it was to miss the mark. To make mistakes is different than willful evildoing. If you are going to argue that Jesus never made mistakes, then it is YOU who are espousing heresy.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

How can Jesus be fully human and not have a sinful nature since according to Christian teaching all humans are born with a sinful nature. What is sin? To the early Greeks it was to miss the mark. To make mistakes is different than willful evildoing. If you are going to argue that Jesus never made mistakes, then it is YOU who are espousing heresy.

Heresy, according to who?
Sinning is not making mistakes. It is knowingly placing your own judgment before God's judgment. That's what Adam did in the Garden. God judged that it would be bad for Adam to eat from the tree. Adam decided he could use his own judgment, overriding God's.
Jesus decided to always follow God's decisions, all the way to the cross.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

The Gospel is nothing like a biography. It exists, not to explain what Jesus was really like, but to lay down a lot of concepts having to do with the spiritual. So you don't get much of the human side of the man.
For us, maybe the important thing is to understand the principle of indwelling divinity. Jesus is the ultimate example of that. We need to be like him, and have that in us, in order to be good. So there would be an emphasis on that aspect of Jesus' life.
Honestly, I'm mystified about what you are calling fundamentalism. From the description of it, it seems very foreign to me. To me, a fundamental belief is the ten commandments. That's just something that no matter how you interpret scripture, you just don't mess with it. Other than that, there shouldn't be a strict orthodoxy. Except, maybe what you are talking about. There are people introducing the heresy that Jesus had a sinful nature. To me, that would be just wrong and not something to be taught, for any reason. I think that would destroy the very foundation of Christianity. "The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in me."

"I don't like the way the word fundamentalist is used by the people who call themselves fundamentalists. So it isn't special pleading."

[cyborg]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Jesus decided to always follow God's decisions, all the way to the cross.

Quite convenient that there is no action he could perform otherwise no?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I know how God has worked in my life in miraculous ways.

No you don't.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

18 months when my brother was born.
That's probably the only significant thing to change around that time.

ok and you already stated that your parents were fundies, so that completely destroys your claim that you were born knowing about God doesn't it as you have no evidence for that. It would be far more accurate to say that you were born like the rest of us knowing nothing and were then indocrinated into christianity by your parents at a time you dont even remember because you were too young

so what are we saying here
your belief is a result of brainwashing as a child by your parents
simple as

can you tell me next, was your upbringing from when you do remember it filled with christian thought provided by your parents too ?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

"I don't like the way the word fundamentalist is used by the people who call themselves fundamentalists. So it isn't special pleading."

You can look it up in Wikipedia and it says that the word fundamentalism was not in the dictionary before 1950. It came about from a controversy about how to interpret scripture. Liberals could look at the archaeological data, and the advances in linguistic studies and science, to make a different view of what the Bible is, and what is saying.
I can go along with the liberal view up to a point. The point being, 1. God has a law that still applies, 2. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law. On those two points, I am a fundamentalist.
I am not attempting to argue that I am somehow exempt from the criticism of using special pleading. If being of a limited fundamentalism make me a fundamentalist, then I will accept that, but I am not like the people that ORUgrad describes and I feel he was right to get away from them and to the best of his ability, he should decontaminate his thinking that is influenced by them. I wish him good luck in that endeavor. I am working on my own understanding by reading the works of recognised scholars in the field, namely, F. M. Cross, and Mark S. Smith.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

can you tell me next, was your upbringing from when you do remember it filled with christian thought provided by your parents too ?

I remember certain events in my life but I don't have clear memories of a religious nature from probably before I was around six.
I do remember talking with my sister about what we remembered from before we were born, and I would guess that it would have been at the time that I first was able to talk well enough to hold a conversation. My sister is very close to my age and older. She could have been articulate enough to describe her own memories, before I was able to articulate my own, but I do not remember that ever happening.

[BobTheDonkey]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I remember certain events in my life but I don't have clear memories of a religious nature from probably before I was around six.
I do remember talking with my sister about what we remembered from before we were born, and I would guess that it would have been at the time that I first was able to talk well enough to hold a conversation. My sister is very close to my age and older. She could have been articulate enough to describe her own memories, before I was able to articulate my own, but I do not remember that ever happening.

Let me burst that little bubble for you...

See, memories are stored in the form of words (this is why you need a context to visualize the memory). In order to be able to remember "a computer," you have to know the word to label it. "goo-ga-goo" isn't a language you speak any longer (at least, I don't think so) and isn't really a proper language. So, when you state that she wasn't articulate enough to describe her own memories before you were articulate, you really mean to say "I wasn't articulate enough to know whether she could recall her memories before I could."

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I remember certain events in my life but I don't have clear memories of a religious nature from probably before I was around six.
I do remember talking with my sister about what we remembered from before we were born, and I would guess that it would have been at the time that I first was able to talk well enough to hold a conversation. My sister is very close to my age and older. She could have been articulate enough to describe her own memories, before I was able to articulate my own, but I do not remember that ever happening.

you stated elsewhere that your parents were fundies
are you saying that they never talked about religion with their own children
like whos in denial now then ?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

you stated elsewhere that your parents were fundies
are you saying that they never talked about religion with their own children
like whos in denial now then ?

They probably did, but I don't remember a specific instance, other than my father would every Saturday at sundown, read to us out of the Bible. I think when I began to have a concept of religion was in church, in the kid's class before the main service.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

They probably did, but I don't remember a specific instance, other than my father would every Saturday at sundown, read to us out of the Bible. I think when I began to have a concept of religion was in church, in the kid's class before the main service.

ok heres how that sounds in the real world

we have a child
who was preached to about God by his parents from the moment he was born, and then once a week theyd take him away and put him in the care of someone who preaches religion to kids professionally before they took you into a religious service to enforce the conditioning that they had started

and really, you still wanna pretend that you have always known about God without any outside help, go ahead, but you need to address the fact at some point that you were brainwashed to think that way from a very early age

and then maybe you could understand the way people who arent brainwashed react to some of the things you say

[Cynic]

The striking thing about that is "how it looks in the real world" is virtually identical to "how he actually stated it". It's amazing how conditioning can prevent us from seeing what everyone else does to the point where it doesn't even need to be altered.

[ORUgrad]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Heresy, according to who?

According to every mainline Christian denomination.

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Sinning is not making mistakes. It is knowingly placing your own judgment before God's judgment.

Maybe you could do a search for the Hebrew word "Het" or the Greek word "Hamartia". You have created your own definition. It means to err, to miss the mark. It does not mean to willfully do evil. But I'm sure you will not accept this etymology because it goes against what you have decided to believe. I have given you Bible verses you claimed did not exist and you still keep your beliefs even when your own Bible contradicts you! Continuing to believe things in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is the mark of someone brainwashed. I can't be to hard on you, though. This described me for years.

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

That's what Adam did in the Garden. God judged that it would be bad for Adam to eat from the tree. Adam decided he could use his own judgment, overriding God's.

Really? Why do you suppose God put the tree there then? And since Adam did not know what good and evil were, how did he know disobeying god would be considered evil? And why did God not want him to know this? And why did God not take the knowledge away from him or prevent his offspring from having it? One would think if Adam had been smart, he would have cut the tree down and made a shed or firewood or something out of it. Can't eat from a dead tree right?

YHWY decides eating from a particular tree is bad but rape, genocide, and forced abortions are just fine. Ok sure. Come on Eth, you worship a god who came up with the idea of eternal torture and who commanded mass genocide and well over a dozen more of the most horrific crimes imaginable. THINK man! THINK! You are looking in the face of evil and are calling it good! Your mind is warped.

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Jesus decided to always follow God's decisions, all the way to the cross.

Well I guess it's easy to do if you ARE God right? Isn't that a bit like me saying "Please admire me, I followed all my own decisions."

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

. . .and really, you still wanna pretend that you have always known about God without any outside help, go ahead, but you need to address the fact at some point that you were brainwashed to think that way from a very early age. . .

I had a knowledge of God that was not at all from what I was taught, and I understood a long time before I ever understood the religion of the church, or the Bible.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I had a knowledge of God that was not at all from what I was taught, and I understood a long time before I ever understood the religion of the church, or the Bible.

you would believe that, so did most of the peoples temple
right before the flavour Aid

you have been brainwashed into believing it to the point that you need to believe it or you won't think you live a valid existence

can you even imagine living your life without God now ?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

According to every mainline Christian denomination.

Wikipedia, in the article on Christology says:

Quote:

The sinless nature of Jesus Christ involves two elements according to MacLeod, “First, Christ was free of actual sin.” Studying the gospels there is no reference to Jesus praying for the forgiveness of sin, nor confessing sin. The assertion is that Jesus did not commit sin, nor could he be proven guilty of sin; he had no vices. In fact, he is quoted as asking, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" in John 8:46. “Secondly, he was free from inherent sin (or "original sin").”

It would seem a little odd for Wikipedia to be making these declarations about the beliefs in Jesus, if it was only some tiny fringe group who believed he was really sinless.

Quote:

Maybe you could do a search for the Hebrew word "Het" or the Greek word "Hamartia". You have created your own definition. It means to err, to miss the mark. It does not mean to willfully do evil. But I'm sure you will not accept this etymology because it goes against what you have decided to believe. I have given you Bible verses you claimed did not exist and you still keep your beliefs even when your own Bible contradicts you! Continuing to believe things in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is the mark of someone brainwashed. I can't be to hard on you, though. This described me for years.

Job 1:22 "In all this Job did not sin, nor did he charge God with moral impropriety"
Here's a verse that uses the word you recommended I look up, chata'.
Here's what part of the translator's notes from NetBible, concerning the word here translated as, impropriety: "It is possible that “folly” would capture some of what Job meant here."
Here Job does not sin because he trusts in God's good judgment.

Quote:

Really? Why do you suppose God put the tree there then? And since Adam did not know what good and evil were, how did he know disobeying god would be considered evil? And why did God not want him to know this? And why did God not take the knowledge away from him or prevent his offspring from having it? One would think if Adam had been smart, he would have cut the tree down and made a shed or firewood or something out of it. Can't eat from a dead tree right?

Funny how quick everyone seems to be to take the side of the Serpent. It does not say that God put the tree there. It just says, in the midst of the Garden was this tree. And the knowledge was of death, and Hell, where the tree grew up from, hungry to lure unsuspecting mortals to its abode in the earth.

Quote:

YHWY decides eating from a particular tree is bad but rape, genocide, and forced abortions are just fine. Ok sure. Come on Eth, you worship a god who came up with the idea of eternal torture and who commanded mass genocide and well over a dozen more of the most horrific crimes imaginable. THINK man! THINK! You are looking in the face of evil and are calling it good! Your mind is warped.

Eternal torture was an invention of Dark Ages clerics. The Bible does not condone rape and God Destroyed Sodom for it. The people who you claim to be victims of genocide were people who had the opportunity to repent of their idolatry and accept the God of Moses and Joshua.
The Bible says David was a man after God's heart. When he was fleeing Saul, he took refuge in a certain city. When someone notified Saul of his whereabouts, and he came to attack the city, David told the people he did not want them to suffer for protecting him, and chose to make his escape from the city. That shows a spirit of self sacrifice and love for others. David being like God in this respect shows how good God is.

Quote:

Well I guess it's easy to do if you ARE God right? Isn't that a bit like me saying "Please admire me, I followed all my own decisions."

No.
Jesus was operating as an independent person and subjected himself to a higher authority.