first post and word of thanks from former fundie - Page 8

BobTheDonkey · 29th October 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

On the other hand, I can examine something like Christianity and learn a lot of the nuances of it. Does that get me any closer to finding the identity of my benefactor who uses intercessory messengers to interact with the physical world? Maybe. But what I am saying is, that I am not so curious as to want to take some sort of spiritual short-cut to find out. I have to think that if God wanted, or required us to know about Him, it (the necessary information) would already be out there, in a physical form, where we can look at it and touch it and analyze it.

How terribly convenient.

ORUgrad · 29th October 2009, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I do not know if my God from my personal experience has anything to do with the God of the Bible. I might make a guess, but I do not have proof.

Now we are making some progress. See how damaging information can be that is told to us as true from someone we trust at a young age? Been there. Done that.

Eth, you are making my point. I am not trying to convince you not to believe in God. Keep your God belief. What I would like you to see is that this God you believe HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GOD OF THE OT. Stop defending this genocidal maniac. If God really does exist, do you think he would be offended if you prayed "Dear God, my experience of you is loving, kind, and gracious to all. This is completely different from how you are presented in the OT where supposedly you ordered the torture and murder of children (both Israelite and Canaanite) along with over a dozen of the worst atrocities imaginable. So unless you tell me otherwise, I'm going to believe you are NOT the OT God and that you really are this wonderful being I think you are." What would be so wrong with that? You would probably have a lot less anxiety in your life and your faith would make a lot more sense to you.

Why not give it a try and see what happens?

Dancing David · 29th October 2009, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Nor have I ever.

That's a ridiculous question.

I would not be alive, if not for God.

That is a Godwin people.

Nothing to see here, move along!

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

How terribly convenient.

I've been on the figurative edge of the cliff that goes to that world that ORUgrad came out of. There are spirits that can claim to be of God, who want to infest your mind. Before throwing myself off that cliff, I inquired of the real God and He very much changed my life forever, to look at the real world and not to rely on some sort of voice telling me to prophesy this or that.
If God was to reveal Himself, wouldn't you think that He would have already done that? We aren't supposed to have some secret knowledge that just magically pops into our head. We need to examine the evidence that already exists and try to rightly understand it.

Fiona · 30th October 2009, 04:36 AM

Problem I see with that, Ethnikos, is that you have already arrived at your conclusion. So you do not/ cannot examine the evidence honestly. As I said, it seems to be a walk round the block for you

Belz... · 30th October 2009, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

There are spirits that can claim to be of God, who want to infest your mind.

You'll have to provide links to those studies, mister.

BobTheDonkey · 30th October 2009, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I've been on the figurative edge of the cliff that goes to that world that ORUgrad came out of. There are spirits that can claim to be of God, who want to infest your mind. Before throwing myself off that cliff, I inquired of the real God and He very much changed my life forever, to look at the real world and not to rely on some sort of voice telling me to prophesy this or that.

How do you know that was God and not the Destroyer? Couldn't the Destroyer have worked to block your way to the truth?

Quote:

If God was to reveal Himself, wouldn't you think that He would have already done that? We aren't supposed to have some secret knowledge that just magically pops into our head. We need to examine the evidence that already exists and try to rightly understand it.

Take a bit of that and actually look for the truth - not just the "truth" you want to see, but the real truth. For starters, stop listening to CtoC (that stuff rots your brain, apparently) and listen to NPR (or music, as long as it's something other than gospel or christian rock).

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

You'll have to provide links to those studies, mister.

ORUgrad put up a thread on jokes and there is a link to this preacher person Benny Hinn who supposedly does miracles, on stage, as a show. Is there something going on there of a supernatural order? I think so. Does it come from God? I don't think so. Well where else could that spirit be coming from? I think, Satan.
What I was trying to describe was my own personal experience. Let's say you are using a ouija board, you are going to summon the spirit of the ouija board. If you have a seance, you will be summoning spirits of the dead. If you go to a charismatic prayer meeting, you will be summoning the spirit of speaking in tongues. In such a meeting, it is not just you, but all these people around you who go week after week hoping for some kind of infestation. In my case, I was asking for none of that but I got it from just being there. What I felt was fear, and I know that does not come from God, so I asked God to help me block the spirit from having access to my mind. After that episode, God directed me to where I could actually physically help people in the real world and got me away from the mumbo jumbo.
I did go back once, later and I witnessed the girl who I was going to those meetings with, speaking all the prophecy that the spirit was prompting me to say. I knew the girl pretty well and I knew she was a long way off from being a saint, though she played the part of one well enough in church.

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

Problem I see with that, Ethnikos, is that you have already arrived at your conclusion. So you do not/ cannot examine the evidence honestly. As I said, it seems to be a walk round the block for you

I would always come back to some sort of belief in God, if that is what you mean. I can be somewhat objective in looking at what the myth of god is, according to different cultures and times. The iffy part is whether that gets me any closer to understanding what the real God is.

The Fallen Serpent · 30th October 2009, 09:51 AM

Out of curiosity what makes you think something supernatural is going on with Benny Hinn's events? I have seen videos and the behaviour is reminiscent of a few mild mosh pits I have taken part in. Nothing in those mild mosh pits appeared supernatural. Easily explained by emotions, hormones, group mentality and the presence of music. Benny Hinn has been asked on numerous occassions to back up his claims of people being healed. His response has been he attempted to do so but those who have experienced the Holy Spirit under his direction are offended by the question and refuse to allow him to do follow ups. This sounds highly suspicious to me. When I attended church as a younger lad any "supernatural" events that were experienced were quite often related and attempted to be shown as true experience. What is it about Benny Hinn's followers that makes them act in the opposite way from the dozen or so different Christian churches of various denominations I attended growing up? My experience is that people who believe they have experienced a true supernatural miracle want to prove it and let others know.

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

How do you know that was God and not the Destroyer? Couldn't the Destroyer have worked to block your way to the truth?

I would admit that my decision was based on subjective criteria. What in the world could be the purpose of sitting in a group of church goers and prophesying, "My People, I have a message for you. You must. . . blah, blah, blah"? Ridiculous! There are people out there who do not know the first thing about god. I think it would make more sense for the spirit of God to concern itself with that. If the spirit does not say, "Get off your asses and out of the building and into the streets to seek the lost!" then it is a lying spirit. But that is just me. If I am wrong, am I going to rot in hell? No, but I would, if I was proud to be some prophet. I knew someone like that. Not the prophet, but the son of the prophet, the one year I went to Christian boarding academy. His father was this wonderful man who spoke the word of God and was famous and everyone loved him. The kid I knew was a kleptomaniac and a generally messed up, sick person, so where was God in all this? Not, at least that's what I think.

The Fallen Serpent · 30th October 2009, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

What in the world could be the purpose of sitting in a group of church goers and prophesying, "My People, I have a message for you. You must. . . blah, blah blah"? Ridiculous! There are people out there who do not know the first thing about god.

Simple. Money. Or even just the regular power of influence. Benny Hinn's ministry has generated for him a massive amount of both money and influence. It does not take supernatural influences for people to desire money and influence. I believe most such people that can be compared to Benny Hinn are driven by a desire for money and power. My belief is based on anecdotal evidence and what I understand of scientific evidence into people's motivations for grand lies (self delusional or not) are often rooted in a want of power/money. I have yet to witness anything that necessitates a supernatural entity to bring about. I find the likelihood of supernatural entities that interfere or can be dectected by the material world to be highly implausible.

Moochie · 30th October 2009, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Thanks but I already sent messages to them just now. I am sure they are not going to think I am weird and I expect them to have similar memories.
If I think I am special, it would specially chicken, maybe, where I would be afraid of getting lost, otherwise.
I appreciate your concern, and thanks for the advice. I think I can understand all that, but I can't imagine any external thing that could have implanted false memories like that.
Strange things can happen. It was probably mostly missed (on another thread) because it was never commented on, but my room mate's brother was shot point blank straight into the chest, with the bullet still lodged in his spine. He was pretty much dead through this ordeal involving three back to back surgeries to repair vital organs. He saw Jesus and had Jesus speaking to him and I guess part of him was in heaven and he was drawn from the darkness and into the light. He felt love and Jesus told him, "you have a purpose in life, and I do not want you to die." He was ready to let go, prior to Jesus speaking to him, where he was descending into the abyss.
One purpose, I would imagine, for him surviving, was to tell about this experience. The only problem is, I never would have known about it unless his brother said something about it. Then I had to drag the story out of him. So I am writing about it right now because Jesus brought me back from the dead too. I can not imagine what in the world an atheist could ever say to people like us, to ever make us want to quit believing in a god we have met and know.

Well, to this human it sounds like your god is The Big Pacifier, the loss of which has brought many a toddler to tears.

M.

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent

Simple. Money. Or even just the regular power of influence. Benny Hinn's ministry has generated for him a massive amount of both money and influence. It does not take supernatural influences for people to desire money and influence. I believe most such people that can be compared to Benny Hinn are driven by a desire for money and power. My belief is based on anecdotal evidence and what I understand of scientific evidence into people's motivations for grand lies (self delusional or not) are often rooted in a want of power/money. I have yet to witness anything that necessitates a supernatural entity to bring about. I find the likelihood of supernatural entities that interfere or can be dectected by the material world to be highly implausible.

Thanks for the input. You are a good sceptic and a credit to this site. What ever it is that posses a person, I want no part of. That was my main point. There are ways of doing things normally, and that is what my church practices, which is medicine and they own several hospitals and teaching colleges. The other place I was talking about was my friend's church and they are more into the miracle thing, being done by saints, and all that.

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Moochie

Well, to this human it sounds like your god is The Big Pacifier, the loss of which has brought many a toddler to tears.

M.

Maybe it depends of which god you are talking about. The mythological god, maybe yes. I happen to have been affected in good way by what I perceive as God, and I have never lost faith in that One.

Ethnikos · 30th October 2009, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Why not give it a try and see what happens?

Good luck with your proposed new thread and keep trying, and stick around. You have a good story and one I was lucky enough to have not had to live through. You add a special insight into the way things are in certain sectors of so-called Christianity that others may find helpful.

Moochie · 30th October 2009, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Maybe it depends of which god you are talking about. The mythological god, maybe yes. I happen to have been affected in good way by what I perceive as God, and I have never lost faith in that One.

I was referring to the role some people's beliefs play in their lives. It's like saying religion is the "opiate of the proletariat." Do you read widely or narrowly? A widely read person would have understood the allusion.

M.

pakeha · 30th October 2009, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I guess you never listen to Coast to Coast. If you listened to it every night, or subscribe to the pod casts, none of this would seen odd to you. But I guess it would be brain washing.
According to CtoC think, there is a mind outside of the physical body, like a tiny ant that can have as brilliant of thoughts as any larger animal because the size of its mind is not restricted by its physical size.
So a person could have a mind, even when it is still just a tiny zygote, or whatever.

I googled Coast to Coast and found this upcoming programming for Monday night:

Quote:

Hosted by George Noory

Guest(s):
John Rhodes
Monday November 2, 2009

Known as the "Crypto Hunter," UFO researcher John Rhodes will share his theory that Reptilian humanoids are in control of the planet, and that various groups, such as the Men in Black, help to maintain their secrecy

Filippo Lippi · 31st October 2009, 03:49 AM

They should make a film of that.

Ethnikos · 31st October 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Moochie

I was referring to the role some people's beliefs play in their lives. It's like saying religion is the "opiate of the proletariat." Do you read widely or narrowly? A widely read person would have understood the allusion.

I'm not a sociologist, if that's what you're asking. I might have some knowledge that could be applied to sociology. As far as shear numbers of pages read, the topic that I have read the most on is everything connected to the British Empire. There's maybe a case study on opium for the masses. Literal opium, meaning they built an empire based on the monopolistic trade in opium. Oddly, you see the exact same thing going on today. The British/American military machine at work gaining control of the production of opium in Afghanistan, with the rise in street opium products available, not seen since the days of the Viet Nam war. Coincidence? Hardly!
Back in the sixties, there was the "golden triangle" where the main production was, and under CIA control. But here I am slipping into the conspiracy topics, again.
As for religion, I don't think the British were all that successful at spreading Christianity. I guess any brand of religion will do for keeping the masses subdued. What the British did was give people real tangible things that generally helped out and cut down, generally, on internal conflicts between waring principalities, that would cause the people to not feel so agitated.
In Britain itself, you had government involvement in religion because of popular demand. It was not so much instigated by the heads of government but it was something always being tampered with, but I suspect that was because of foreign influences. (Papal, greedy to control as much as they could)

I could put this pic up again. This one always gets me. It seems that government heads find it convenient to appear to be on God's side. So, I don't see religion being snatched away from the proletariat in the near future.
On a personal level, the big pacifier that gets lost, I have to try to apply somewhat to my own story, since you were apparently responding to that. It seems I have to let go of what I thought was my vision of what God is like, and my perceived relationship to Him. I mentioned one time before, not too long ago, that once people get to a certain stage in their personal development, they can get beyond the fairy-tales and should have those lessons ingrained in their thinking. This was a verse brought up the last time I was at church, Paul talking about the milk that is for beginners. The meat is for those who have developed their ability to know right from wrong, by constantly exercising that reasoning. If one was to loose credibility in the fairy-tales, one should still be able to make use of what type of path they were started on, to continue to be good people, which was the purpose of those stories, in the first place.

pakeha · 31st October 2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:

...In Britain itself, you had government involvement in religion because of popular demand. It was not so much instigated by the heads of government but it was something always being tampered with, but I suspect that was because of foreign influences. (Papal, greedy to control as much as they could) ...

I couldn't really understand this, Ethnikos.
Popular demand?

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

I couldn't really understand this, Ethnikos.
Popular demand?

I should have been more clear about what I meant. Once the representatives of the Roman church moved into the British Isles, there was not much choice because of the destructive nature of their takeover, meaning destroying all pre-existing churches. Once the Reformation hit and the political tables were slanted against the Catholics, they were driven off to a certain extent. Once the Protestants were establishing churches to replace the Catholic ones, the clergy, with the support of the parishioners, requested a stipend system to maintain local clergy in a widely dispersed form. As in state supported subsidised churches. The idea being, that you get a sort of egalitarian situation, where everyone gets to go to church and have a regular pastor, even if you live out in the country.

pakeha · 1st November 2009, 01:10 AM

Sorry, my misunderstanding.

Quote:

The idea being, that you get a sort of egalitarian situation, where everyone gets to go to church and have a regular pastor, even if you live out in the country.

How is this different from the earlier Catholic scenario?
Which of these 'changes' implies a 'popular demand'?

Quote:

Once the representatives of the Roman church moved into the British Isles, there was not much choice because of the destructive nature of their takeover, meaning destroying all pre-existing churches.

Popular demand?

Quote:

Once the Reformation hit and the political tables were slanted against the Catholics, they were driven off to a certain extent.

That's one way to describe the events of the 16th century in England. Could you really mean heretics/Catholics were tortured and executed by 'popular demand'?

Quote:

Once the Protestants were establishing churches to replace the Catholic ones, the clergy, with the support of the parishioners, requested a stipend system to maintain local clergy in a widely dispersed form.

Actually, the Catholic churches were for the most part simply converted, not replaced.

I really don't see how this system is actually anything but a reflection of popular acceptance of the dictates imposed by the Head of the Church in England.

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Sorry, my misunderstanding.
How is this different from the earlier Catholic scenario?
Which of these 'changes' implies a 'popular demand'?
Popular demand?
That's one way to describe the events of the 16th century in England. Could you really mean heretics/Catholics were tortured and executed by 'popular demand'?
Actually, the Catholic churches were for the most part simply converted, not replaced.
I really don't see how this system is actually anything but a reflection of popular acceptance of the dictates imposed by the Head of the Church in England.

I'm not an expert on all this stuff about the history of the church. Earlier, on this thread, someone asked me what I did as a mission for God, or whatever, besides writing strange posts on this forum. I answered that I edit religious books. Well what I do is take PDF files that are in the public domain, of older books on various aspects of the beginnings of the Protestant churches. That is a long way from being an actual historian but I have to examine the materials and be able to make some sense out of them in order to make various compilations to print as books. (in my home print shop/book bindery)
One of the big sources that I use is Thomas M'Crie. He has as one of his major achievements, a history of the Reformation church in Scotland. In this book, he claims that no Catholic was ever killed in Scotland for no other reason than being a Catholic.
From decades ago, I was a fan of the Venerable Bede's work, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles. When you get into studying that man's life and the context of his life, you find out plenty of disturbing facts about how the Roman church operated back then. There was an older Celtic church that existed in the Isles before the Romans showed up. The Romans were content to give huge areas back to the heathens, rather than have a church exist there, that was not under the direct rule and subordination to the Pope.
The "earlier Catholic scenario" was nothing but thievery. They would build a stronghold and live in it while they pillaged the land surrounding it. They gave nothing back to the people, other than the confidence of being considered good slaves by the powers that be, who show their kindness by not overrunning them and killing them all.
Here's an excerpt from M'Crie that will work as one example of what I mean by popular demand:

Originally Posted by Thomas M'Crie

The demands of these reformers were at first exceedingly few and simple; but it is remarkable that, among these, even at this early stage of the reformation, the most prominent place was given to the popular election of ministers. They requested “that public prayers, and the administration of the sacraments, should be celebrated by ministers in their mothertongue, that all the people might understand them; that the election of ministers, according to the custom of the primitive Church, should be made by the people; and that they who presided over that election should inquire diligently into the lives and doctrines of all that were to be admitted.”

The people in Scotland got slightly ticked of at the Catholic church and took matters into their own hands:

Originally Posted by Thomas M'Crie

The demolition of the monasteries and other religious houses, which marked the commencement of our reformation, has furnished a rich topic for declamation to many, who refer to it as a proof of the bigotry and barbarism of our reformers. We allow they may have gone too far, under the excitement of the moment; and “can any man think,” says honest Row, “that in such a great alteration in a kingdom, every man did everything rightly?” But let us do them justice. Had the queen-regent, instead of resorting to violent measures to suppress the reformation, listened to the petitions of her noblemen for inquiry into the abuses of the church, or even allowed her subjects liberty to profess the gospel, these excesses would never have occurred. It was only when this liberty was denied them, and they were required to submit unconditionally to the will of the popish clergy, that the people had recourse to this method of redress. “After which answer,” says sir James Balfour, “the congregation goes to the staitly monastry of Scone, and pulls it doun, and solemnly burns all the Eoman trashe, as images, altars, and the lyke. Then proceed they fordward to Stirling, Cambuskenneth, and Linlithgow, and there demolish and pull doun all whatsoever carried any symboll of the Roman harlot.”

There was a reason to their madness:

Originally Posted by Thomas M'Crie

John Knox is said to have inculcated: “Down with those crow-nests, else the crows will big in them again."

A lot of the churches were spared and were stripped out and converted, but the Protestants had been building their own churches for years before this happened.

pakeha · 1st November 2009, 04:28 AM

Ah, now I understand you.
It's a fascinating work you have there, indeed.

I suggest you update your sources of information Ethnikos.
Wikipedia wouldn't be a bad place to start.
I'll post the references which might interest you most.

One thing to keep in mind, Ethnikos, is that one of the honest-to-God popularly instigated actions of those devout Scots were the witch trials.

And another-Scotland's religious history is significantly different than that of England.

And another- the Roman invasion of Britain has little to do with ecclesiastical history.

Quote:

The "earlier Catholic scenario" was nothing but thievery. They would build a stronghold and live in it while they pillaged the land surrounding it. They gave nothing back to the people, other than the confidence of being considered good slaves by the powers that be, who show their kindness by not overrunning them and killing them all.

Please consider your source, Ethnikos.

pakeha · 1st November 2009, 04:41 AM

This Thomas M'Crie the Elder^WP?

Quote:

...While Dr. M'Crie was thus occupied, the bill introduced in 1829 for the emancipation of Roman Catholics from political restrictions, and their admission into places of authority and trust, was passed. It is perhaps unnecessary to add, that one who had studied and written as he had done, was entirely opposed to the measure. He not only thought it unsafe to concede such privileges, in a Protestant country, to men doing homage to a foreign ecclesiastical power and a hostile creed, but he was also of opinion that by such concessions our country abandoned the solemn covenants to which it had pledged itself since the Reformation, and forfeited the privileges which it enjoyed as the head of European Protestantism.

Fiona · 1st November 2009, 04:44 AM

Not only sources but the time scale. perhaps? I really don't think you can just skip over the Roman occupation; the celtic church; the reformation; and the covenanters as if there was one main narrative thrust. We are talking about more than a thousand years here.

pakeha · 1st November 2009, 05:16 AM

Indeed, Fiona, depending on whether you count the Roman occupation from Julius Caesar's time or from the divine Claudius', you could be forgiven for thinking we're talking about 1,800 years of history.

That said, I'm also a Venerable Bede^WP fan myself.
From the wiki

Quote:

In 708, a number of monks at Hexham accused Bede of heresy, because his work De Temporibus offered a different chronology of the Six ages of the world^WP theory than the one commonly accepted by theologians. The accusation occurred in front of the bishop of Hexham of the time, Wilfrid, who was present at a feast when some drunken monks made the accusation. Wilfrid did not respond to the accusation, but a monk present relayed the episode to Bede, who replied within a few days to the monk, writing a letter setting forth his defence and asking that the letter be read to Wilfrid also.[21][notes 2] Bede had another brush with Wilfrid, for the historian himself says that he met with Wilfrid, sometime between 706 and 709, and discussed Æthelthryth^WP, the abbess of Ely. Wilfrid had been present at the exhumation of her body in 695, and Bede questioned the bishop about the exact circumstances of the body and asked for more details of her life, as Wilfrid had been her advisor.[22]

A fascinating character, was Bede.
And Æthelthryth^WP is worthy of an historical novel in her own right and it was interesting to see where the cliche 'tawdry lace' is from.

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

And another- the Roman invasion of Britain has little to do with ecclesiastical history.

I didn't mean back in the day of Julius Caesar. I meant the time when the Roman Catholics sent over monks to infest the Isles.

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

This Thomas M'Crie the Elder?

Yes, a credit to his country. Really top notch.

Fiona · 1st November 2009, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I didn't mean back in the day of Julius Caesar. I meant the time when the Roman Catholics sent over monks to infest the Isles.

What are you talking about?

Have you been reading Westward Ho! or something?

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

What are you talking about?

Have you been reading Westward Ho! or something?

No, but thanks for the recommendation. I downloaded the PDF from archive.org
This is another example of a book in the public domain that someone can print up and make books of. I think I will print up a couple of copies and see how they go.

Fiona · 1st November 2009, 12:07 PM

It was NOT a recommendation. Ethnikos. It is a profoundly silly book.

pakeha · 1st November 2009, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I didn't mean back in the day of Julius Caesar. I meant the time when the Roman Catholics sent over monks to infest the Isles.

When Pope Celestine I sent over monks in the 5th century to Ireland?
St Patrick^WP

Quote:

Most modern studies[which?] of Saint Patrick follow a variant of T. F. O'Rahilly's "Two Patricks" theory.[3] That is to say, many of the traditions later attached to Saint Patrick originally concerned Palladius, who Prosper of Aquitaine's Chronicle says was sent by Pope Celestine I as the first bishop to Irish Christians in 431.[4] Palladius was not the only early cleric in Ireland at this time. Saints Auxilius, Secundinus and Iserninus are associated with early churches in Munster and Leinster. By this reading, Palladius was active in Ireland until the 460s.[5]

So were the beginnings of the celtic church.

Added:
Or when

Quote:

. In 597 Pope Gregory I sent Saint Augustine of Canterbury from Rome to evangelise the Angles; this event is known as the Gregorian mission.

History of the Church of England^WP

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

So were the beginnings of the celtic church.

Apparently before that.
The Isles were somewhat isolated from the continent by the channel, but there was a such thing as boats.
Then you have people like Joseph of Arimathea who was a tin trader and that came from the Isles.
from wikipedia:

Quote:

Later retellings of the story contend that Joseph of Arimathea himself travelled to Britain and became the first Christian bishop in the Isles.

Of course legends does not make it true, but it seemed likely enough to people a long time ago that there could have been freelance evangelists who graced those shores.

Fiona · 1st November 2009, 01:35 PM

What are you actually claiming Ethinikos? I cannot follow your thought, I am afraid

pakeha · 1st November 2009, 01:49 PM

I see you mangled the Joseph of Arimethea^WP entry.
The idea of using pious legends as evidence isn't new here.
Still, I went around to Celtic Christianity^WP and found this:

Quote:

Celtic Christianity or Insular Christianity is a term referring broadly to the Early Medieval Christian practice that developed in Britain and Ireland before and during the sub-Roman period. During this period, the Roman withdrawal and the Anglo-Saxon invasion sharply reduced contact between the broadly Celtic peoples of the islands and other Christians in Continental Europe. In this relatively isolated environment distinctive practices began to emerge, first gaining widespread use in Ireland in the 5th century[citation needed] (though elements of the Celtic Rite may have been introduced to Ireland by the British St. Patrick), and spreading to Britain with the Irish mission system established by Saint Columba. Celtic Christianity may be distinguished by its organisation around monasteries rather than dioceses, and certain traditions, especially in matters of liturgy and ritual, that were different from those of the greater sub-Roman world.

... Furthermore, the term "Celtic Church", entails an inaccurate sense of there having been a unified and identifiable entity separated from the mainstream of Western Christendom.[2][3]

An odd coincidence the celtic church organised itself around monasteries, which were pretty systemtically destroyed in the Scottish reformation, isn't it.

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fiona

What are you actually claiming Ethinikos? I cannot follow your thought, I am afraid

That there were churches in the Br. Isles, there before missionaries were official sent there by order from Rome. The Catholics actually neglected the region and meanwhile people from Ireland brought Christianity by a northern route over Scotland and into the eastern border county. There ended up being a convergence across the area, between the east and the west, at the time the Roman monks showed up and stated working their way up from southern England. When the two churches met, it ended up being to the detriment of the progress that had already been going on from the north. To the point that some churches disappeared, giving the area back to the pagans, which seems to be fine with the Romans, as long as they win in the end and maintain their monopoly. Or so that is my interpretation of events. If anyone wants to disagree, that's your business because there is a nice happy story that people can believe if they wish, which is that the only real Church is the Roman one and anyone else may just as well be heathen.

Fiona · 1st November 2009, 02:30 PM

Ethnikos I probably should not respond to this but I will because sectarian bigotry is a real problem in this country and this kind of nonsense does nothing to defuse the situation. It is as if you made up fairy stories about the history of race in america and I do not think that would be acceptable

Britain was under Roman rule after Diocletian adopted christianity and Constantine legalised it. Ireland was never under Roman rule so far as I know. St Patrick took the religion to that country from Britain. The early celtic church was Christian and it was catholic. England was invaded by the anglo saxons and so was pagan. So there was a time when the celtic church was cut off from continental christianity (though of course there was still some traffic).

Because of isolation, and a different culture, it was organised differently and some divergent practices arose. When England was converted it was converted from the continent and it was in the interests of the church to standardise practice. It did so in a series of synods etc: adopting some of the celtic practice and some of what was done in the european church and in england. That happened over a couple of hundred years: maybe more. It was contentious but Rome did not impose its practice and indeed recognised the independence of the celtic church for at least some of the period

Ethnikos · 1st November 2009, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fiona

Ethnikos I probably should not respond to this but I will because sectarian bigotry is a real problem in this country and this kind of nonsense does nothing to defuse the situation. It is as if you made up fairy stories about the history of race in america and I do not think that would be acceptable

A lot of this "celtic church" business is probably a misapplication of the term. I only mean it in the most general way possible. I am not necessary an advocate of it rather am a supporter of the idea of live and let live and that one religion, no matter who it is, should not impose itself over a population and demand physical support from it, or demand some sort of sovereignty over it.
I started in on this topic in response to Moochi's comment on the "opiate of the masses". I was trying to say that religion is not something that will be abandoned as a way to control populations, any time in the near future.

29th October 2009, 09:05 AM	#281
BobTheDonkey Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 521	Originally Posted by Ethnikos On the other hand, I can examine something like Christianity and learn a lot of the nuances of it. Does that get me any closer to finding the identity of my benefactor who uses intercessory messengers to interact with the physical world? Maybe. But what I am saying is, that I am not so curious as to want to take some sort of spiritual short-cut to find out. I have to think that if God wanted, or required us to know about Him, it (the necessary information) would already be out there, in a physical form, where we can look at it and touch it and analyze it. How terribly convenient.
BobTheDonkey Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 521	__________________ [As] to the pointy of moral lessons, I may as well take them from Bruce Lee as Jesus. He's contradictory, fallible, arrogant...But at least I know he existed. - Red3

29th October 2009, 09:20 AM	#282
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I do not know if my God from my personal experience has anything to do with the God of the Bible. I might make a guess, but I do not have proof. Now we are making some progress. See how damaging information can be that is told to us as true from someone we trust at a young age? Been there. Done that. Eth, you are making my point. I am not trying to convince you not to believe in God. Keep your God belief. What I would like you to see is that this God you believe HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GOD OF THE OT. Stop defending this genocidal maniac. If God really does exist, do you think he would be offended if you prayed "Dear God, my experience of you is loving, kind, and gracious to all. This is completely different from how you are presented in the OT where supposedly you ordered the torture and murder of children (both Israelite and Canaanite) along with over a dozen of the worst atrocities imaginable. So unless you tell me otherwise, I'm going to believe you are NOT the OT God and that you really are this wonderful being I think you are." What would be so wrong with that? You would probably have a lot less anxiety in your life and your faith would make a lot more sense to you. Why not give it a try and see what happens?
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 93

29th October 2009, 09:47 AM	#283
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 17,342	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Nor have I ever. That's a ridiculous question. I would not be alive, if not for God. That is a Godwin people. Nothing to see here, move along!
	__________________ I’m not ready to make nice, I’m not ready to back down, I’m still mad as hell and I don’t have time to go round and round and round, It’s too late to make it right I probably wouldn’t if I could, ‘Cause I’m mad as hell, Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should- Dixie Chicks

30th October 2009, 12:43 AM	#284
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey How terribly convenient. I've been on the figurative edge of the cliff that goes to that world that ORUgrad came out of. There are spirits that can claim to be of God, who want to infest your mind. Before throwing myself off that cliff, I inquired of the real God and He very much changed my life forever, to look at the real world and not to rely on some sort of voice telling me to prophesy this or that. If God was to reveal Himself, wouldn't you think that He would have already done that? We aren't supposed to have some secret knowledge that just magically pops into our head. We need to examine the evidence that already exists and try to rightly understand it.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 30th October 2009 at 12:46 AM.

30th October 2009, 04:36 AM	#285
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	Problem I see with that, Ethnikos, is that you have already arrived at your conclusion. So you do not/ cannot examine the evidence honestly. As I said, it seems to be a walk round the block for you
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	__________________ To see you, who you wanted to be, amongst the bastards out there. Damn you, Fiona - MattC. Damn you, Fi - SkeptikKhatt Damn you, anoiF - CriticalSock You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads! -realpaladin

30th October 2009, 05:59 AM	#286
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a multiverse of my own creation Posts: 15,537	Originally Posted by Ethnikos There are spirits that can claim to be of God, who want to infest your mind. You'll have to provide links to those studies, mister.
	__________________ - "To kill and be king, is that all?" - "Perhaps not even that." -- Uther and Merlin, Excalibur Current avatar from Jaestudio.com

30th October 2009, 07:59 AM	#287
BobTheDonkey Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 521	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I've been on the figurative edge of the cliff that goes to that world that ORUgrad came out of. There are spirits that can claim to be of God, who want to infest your mind. Before throwing myself off that cliff, I inquired of the real God and He very much changed my life forever, to look at the real world and not to rely on some sort of voice telling me to prophesy this or that. How do you know that was God and not the Destroyer? Couldn't the Destroyer have worked to block your way to the truth? Quote: If God was to reveal Himself, wouldn't you think that He would have already done that? We aren't supposed to have some secret knowledge that just magically pops into our head. We need to examine the evidence that already exists and try to rightly understand it. Take a bit of that and actually look for the truth - not just the "truth" you want to see, but the real truth. For starters, stop listening to CtoC (that stuff rots your brain, apparently) and listen to NPR (or music, as long as it's something other than gospel or christian rock).
BobTheDonkey Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 521	__________________ [As] to the pointy of moral lessons, I may as well take them from Bruce Lee as Jesus. He's contradictory, fallible, arrogant...But at least I know he existed. - Red3

30th October 2009, 09:35 AM	#288
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by Belz... You'll have to provide links to those studies, mister. ORUgrad put up a thread on jokes and there is a link to this preacher person Benny Hinn who supposedly does miracles, on stage, as a show. Is there something going on there of a supernatural order? I think so. Does it come from God? I don't think so. Well where else could that spirit be coming from? I think, Satan. What I was trying to describe was my own personal experience. Let's say you are using a ouija board, you are going to summon the spirit of the ouija board. If you have a seance, you will be summoning spirits of the dead. If you go to a charismatic prayer meeting, you will be summoning the spirit of speaking in tongues. In such a meeting, it is not just you, but all these people around you who go week after week hoping for some kind of infestation. In my case, I was asking for none of that but I got it from just being there. What I felt was fear, and I know that does not come from God, so I asked God to help me block the spirit from having access to my mind. After that episode, God directed me to where I could actually physically help people in the real world and got me away from the mumbo jumbo. I did go back once, later and I witnessed the girl who I was going to those meetings with, speaking all the prophecy that the spirit was prompting me to say. I knew the girl pretty well and I knew she was a long way off from being a saint, though she played the part of one well enough in church.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 30th October 2009 at 09:36 AM.

30th October 2009, 09:43 AM	#289
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by Fiona Problem I see with that, Ethnikos, is that you have already arrived at your conclusion. So you do not/ cannot examine the evidence honestly. As I said, it seems to be a walk round the block for you I would always come back to some sort of belief in God, if that is what you mean. I can be somewhat objective in looking at what the myth of god is, according to different cultures and times. The iffy part is whether that gets me any closer to understanding what the real God is.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

30th October 2009, 09:51 AM	#290
The Fallen Serpent Thinker Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 145	Out of curiosity what makes you think something supernatural is going on with Benny Hinn's events? I have seen videos and the behaviour is reminiscent of a few mild mosh pits I have taken part in. Nothing in those mild mosh pits appeared supernatural. Easily explained by emotions, hormones, group mentality and the presence of music. Benny Hinn has been asked on numerous occassions to back up his claims of people being healed. His response has been he attempted to do so but those who have experienced the Holy Spirit under his direction are offended by the question and refuse to allow him to do follow ups. This sounds highly suspicious to me. When I attended church as a younger lad any "supernatural" events that were experienced were quite often related and attempted to be shown as true experience. What is it about Benny Hinn's followers that makes them act in the opposite way from the dozen or so different Christian churches of various denominations I attended growing up? My experience is that people who believe they have experienced a true supernatural miracle want to prove it and let others know.

30th October 2009, 09:55 AM	#291
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey How do you know that was God and not the Destroyer? Couldn't the Destroyer have worked to block your way to the truth? I would admit that my decision was based on subjective criteria. What in the world could be the purpose of sitting in a group of church goers and prophesying, "My People, I have a message for you. You must. . . blah, blah, blah"? Ridiculous! There are people out there who do not know the first thing about god. I think it would make more sense for the spirit of God to concern itself with that. If the spirit does not say, "Get off your asses and out of the building and into the streets to seek the lost!" then it is a lying spirit. But that is just me. If I am wrong, am I going to rot in hell? No, but I would, if I was proud to be some prophet. I knew someone like that. Not the prophet, but the son of the prophet, the one year I went to Christian boarding academy. His father was this wonderful man who spoke the word of God and was famous and everyone loved him. The kid I knew was a kleptomaniac and a generally messed up, sick person, so where was God in all this? Not, at least that's what I think.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 30th October 2009 at 09:57 AM.

30th October 2009, 10:01 AM	#292
The Fallen Serpent Thinker Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 145	Originally Posted by Ethnikos What in the world could be the purpose of sitting in a group of church goers and prophesying, "My People, I have a message for you. You must. . . blah, blah blah"? Ridiculous! There are people out there who do not know the first thing about god. Simple. Money. Or even just the regular power of influence. Benny Hinn's ministry has generated for him a massive amount of both money and influence. It does not take supernatural influences for people to desire money and influence. I believe most such people that can be compared to Benny Hinn are driven by a desire for money and power. My belief is based on anecdotal evidence and what I understand of scientific evidence into people's motivations for grand lies (self delusional or not) are often rooted in a want of power/money. I have yet to witness anything that necessitates a supernatural entity to bring about. I find the likelihood of supernatural entities that interfere or can be dectected by the material world to be highly implausible.

30th October 2009, 12:42 PM	#293
Moochie Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4,967	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Thanks but I already sent messages to them just now. I am sure they are not going to think I am weird and I expect them to have similar memories. If I think I am special, it would specially chicken, maybe, where I would be afraid of getting lost, otherwise. I appreciate your concern, and thanks for the advice. I think I can understand all that, but I can't imagine any external thing that could have implanted false memories like that. Strange things can happen. It was probably mostly missed (on another thread) because it was never commented on, but my room mate's brother was shot point blank straight into the chest, with the bullet still lodged in his spine. He was pretty much dead through this ordeal involving three back to back surgeries to repair vital organs. He saw Jesus and had Jesus speaking to him and I guess part of him was in heaven and he was drawn from the darkness and into the light. He felt love and Jesus told him, "you have a purpose in life, and I do not want you to die." He was ready to let go, prior to Jesus speaking to him, where he was descending into the abyss. One purpose, I would imagine, for him surviving, was to tell about this experience. The only problem is, I never would have known about it unless his brother said something about it. Then I had to drag the story out of him. So I am writing about it right now because Jesus brought me back from the dead too. I can not imagine what in the world an atheist could ever say to people like us, to ever make us want to quit believing in a god we have met and know. Well, to this human it sounds like your god is The Big Pacifier, the loss of which has brought many a toddler to tears. M.
	__________________ When I take all my clothes off, I feel so naked.

30th October 2009, 01:04 PM	#294
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent Simple. Money. Or even just the regular power of influence. Benny Hinn's ministry has generated for him a massive amount of both money and influence. It does not take supernatural influences for people to desire money and influence. I believe most such people that can be compared to Benny Hinn are driven by a desire for money and power. My belief is based on anecdotal evidence and what I understand of scientific evidence into people's motivations for grand lies (self delusional or not) are often rooted in a want of power/money. I have yet to witness anything that necessitates a supernatural entity to bring about. I find the likelihood of supernatural entities that interfere or can be dectected by the material world to be highly implausible. Thanks for the input. You are a good sceptic and a credit to this site. What ever it is that posses a person, I want no part of. That was my main point. There are ways of doing things normally, and that is what my church practices, which is medicine and they own several hospitals and teaching colleges. The other place I was talking about was my friend's church and they are more into the miracle thing, being done by saints, and all that.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

30th October 2009, 01:08 PM	#295
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by Moochie Well, to this human it sounds like your god is The Big Pacifier, the loss of which has brought many a toddler to tears. M. Maybe it depends of which god you are talking about. The mythological god, maybe yes. I happen to have been affected in good way by what I perceive as God, and I have never lost faith in that One.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

30th October 2009, 01:11 PM	#296
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by ORUgrad Why not give it a try and see what happens? Good luck with your proposed new thread and keep trying, and stick around. You have a good story and one I was lucky enough to have not had to live through. You add a special insight into the way things are in certain sectors of so-called Christianity that others may find helpful.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

30th October 2009, 02:26 PM	#297
Moochie Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4,967	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Maybe it depends of which god you are talking about. The mythological god, maybe yes. I happen to have been affected in good way by what I perceive as God, and I have never lost faith in that One. I was referring to the role some people's beliefs play in their lives. It's like saying religion is the "opiate of the proletariat." Do you read widely or narrowly? A widely read person would have understood the allusion. M.
	__________________ When I take all my clothes off, I feel so naked.

30th October 2009, 11:06 PM	#298
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I guess you never listen to Coast to Coast. If you listened to it every night, or subscribe to the pod casts, none of this would seen odd to you. But I guess it would be brain washing. According to CtoC think, there is a mind outside of the physical body, like a tiny ant that can have as brilliant of thoughts as any larger animal because the size of its mind is not restricted by its physical size. So a person could have a mind, even when it is still just a tiny zygote, or whatever. I googled Coast to Coast and found this upcoming programming for Monday night: Quote: Hosted by George Noory Guest(s): John Rhodes Monday November 2, 2009 Known as the "Crypto Hunter," UFO researcher John Rhodes will share his theory that Reptilian humanoids are in control of the planet, and that various groups, such as the Men in Black, help to maintain their secrecy
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

31st October 2009, 03:49 AM	#299
Filippo Lippi Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nottingham Posts: 601	They should make a film of that.
	__________________ I'm as happy as a monkey with a peanut machine. "Why in very few words? Because if you use many words you are certainly not knowledgeable about the things whatever each experience of each example of empirical evidence the experience is supposed to prove." - Yrreg

31st October 2009, 04:08 PM	#300
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by Moochie I was referring to the role some people's beliefs play in their lives. It's like saying religion is the "opiate of the proletariat." Do you read widely or narrowly? A widely read person would have understood the allusion. I'm not a sociologist, if that's what you're asking. I might have some knowledge that could be applied to sociology. As far as shear numbers of pages read, the topic that I have read the most on is everything connected to the British Empire. There's maybe a case study on opium for the masses. Literal opium, meaning they built an empire based on the monopolistic trade in opium. Oddly, you see the exact same thing going on today. The British/American military machine at work gaining control of the production of opium in Afghanistan, with the rise in street opium products available, not seen since the days of the Viet Nam war. Coincidence? Hardly! Back in the sixties, there was the "golden triangle" where the main production was, and under CIA control. But here I am slipping into the conspiracy topics, again. As for religion, I don't think the British were all that successful at spreading Christianity. I guess any brand of religion will do for keeping the masses subdued. What the British did was give people real tangible things that generally helped out and cut down, generally, on internal conflicts between waring principalities, that would cause the people to not feel so agitated. In Britain itself, you had government involvement in religion because of popular demand. It was not so much instigated by the heads of government but it was something always being tampered with, but I suspect that was because of foreign influences. (Papal, greedy to control as much as they could) I could put this pic up again. This one always gets me. It seems that government heads find it convenient to appear to be on God's side. So, I don't see religion being snatched away from the proletariat in the near future. On a personal level, the big pacifier that gets lost, I have to try to apply somewhat to my own story, since you were apparently responding to that. It seems I have to let go of what I thought was my vision of what God is like, and my perceived relationship to Him. I mentioned one time before, not too long ago, that once people get to a certain stage in their personal development, they can get beyond the fairy-tales and should have those lessons ingrained in their thinking. This was a verse brought up the last time I was at church, Paul talking about the milk that is for beginners. The meat is for those who have developed their ability to know right from wrong, by constantly exercising that reasoning. If one was to loose credibility in the fairy-tales, one should still be able to make use of what type of path they were started on, to continue to be good people, which was the purpose of those stories, in the first place.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 31st October 2009 at 04:15 PM.

31st October 2009, 11:23 PM	#301
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	Quote: ...In Britain itself, you had government involvement in religion because of popular demand. It was not so much instigated by the heads of government but it was something always being tampered with, but I suspect that was because of foreign influences. (Papal, greedy to control as much as they could) ... I couldn't really understand this, Ethnikos. Popular demand?
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

1st November 2009, 12:10 AM	#302
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by pakeha I couldn't really understand this, Ethnikos. Popular demand? I should have been more clear about what I meant. Once the representatives of the Roman church moved into the British Isles, there was not much choice because of the destructive nature of their takeover, meaning destroying all pre-existing churches. Once the Reformation hit and the political tables were slanted against the Catholics, they were driven off to a certain extent. Once the Protestants were establishing churches to replace the Catholic ones, the clergy, with the support of the parishioners, requested a stipend system to maintain local clergy in a widely dispersed form. As in state supported subsidised churches. The idea being, that you get a sort of egalitarian situation, where everyone gets to go to church and have a regular pastor, even if you live out in the country.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 1st November 2009 at 12:11 AM.

1st November 2009, 01:10 AM	#303
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	Sorry, my misunderstanding. Quote: The idea being, that you get a sort of egalitarian situation, where everyone gets to go to church and have a regular pastor, even if you live out in the country. How is this different from the earlier Catholic scenario? Which of these 'changes' implies a 'popular demand'? Quote: Once the representatives of the Roman church moved into the British Isles, there was not much choice because of the destructive nature of their takeover, meaning destroying all pre-existing churches. Popular demand? Quote: Once the Reformation hit and the political tables were slanted against the Catholics, they were driven off to a certain extent. That's one way to describe the events of the 16th century in England. Could you really mean heretics/Catholics were tortured and executed by 'popular demand'? Quote: Once the Protestants were establishing churches to replace the Catholic ones, the clergy, with the support of the parishioners, requested a stipend system to maintain local clergy in a widely dispersed form. Actually, the Catholic churches were for the most part simply converted, not replaced. I really don't see how this system is actually anything but a reflection of popular acceptance of the dictates imposed by the Head of the Church in England.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

1st November 2009, 03:03 AM	#304
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by pakeha Sorry, my misunderstanding. How is this different from the earlier Catholic scenario? Which of these 'changes' implies a 'popular demand'? Popular demand? That's one way to describe the events of the 16th century in England. Could you really mean heretics/Catholics were tortured and executed by 'popular demand'? Actually, the Catholic churches were for the most part simply converted, not replaced. I really don't see how this system is actually anything but a reflection of popular acceptance of the dictates imposed by the Head of the Church in England. I'm not an expert on all this stuff about the history of the church. Earlier, on this thread, someone asked me what I did as a mission for God, or whatever, besides writing strange posts on this forum. I answered that I edit religious books. Well what I do is take PDF files that are in the public domain, of older books on various aspects of the beginnings of the Protestant churches. That is a long way from being an actual historian but I have to examine the materials and be able to make some sense out of them in order to make various compilations to print as books. (in my home print shop/book bindery) One of the big sources that I use is Thomas M'Crie. He has as one of his major achievements, a history of the Reformation church in Scotland. In this book, he claims that no Catholic was ever killed in Scotland for no other reason than being a Catholic. From decades ago, I was a fan of the Venerable Bede's work, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles. When you get into studying that man's life and the context of his life, you find out plenty of disturbing facts about how the Roman church operated back then. There was an older Celtic church that existed in the Isles before the Romans showed up. The Romans were content to give huge areas back to the heathens, rather than have a church exist there, that was not under the direct rule and subordination to the Pope. The "earlier Catholic scenario" was nothing but thievery. They would build a stronghold and live in it while they pillaged the land surrounding it. They gave nothing back to the people, other than the confidence of being considered good slaves by the powers that be, who show their kindness by not overrunning them and killing them all. Here's an excerpt from M'Crie that will work as one example of what I mean by popular demand: Originally Posted by Thomas M'Crie The demands of these reformers were at first exceedingly few and simple; but it is remarkable that, among these, even at this early stage of the reformation, the most prominent place was given to the popular election of ministers. They requested “that public prayers, and the administration of the sacraments, should be celebrated by ministers in their mothertongue, that all the people might understand them; that the election of ministers, according to the custom of the primitive Church, should be made by the people; and that they who presided over that election should inquire diligently into the lives and doctrines of all that were to be admitted.” The people in Scotland got slightly ticked of at the Catholic church and took matters into their own hands: Originally Posted by Thomas M'Crie The demolition of the monasteries and other religious houses, which marked the commencement of our reformation, has furnished a rich topic for declamation to many, who refer to it as a proof of the bigotry and barbarism of our reformers. We allow they may have gone too far, under the excitement of the moment; and “can any man think,” says honest Row, “that in such a great alteration in a kingdom, every man did everything rightly?” But let us do them justice. Had the queen-regent, instead of resorting to violent measures to suppress the reformation, listened to the petitions of her noblemen for inquiry into the abuses of the church, or even allowed her subjects liberty to profess the gospel, these excesses would never have occurred. It was only when this liberty was denied them, and they were required to submit unconditionally to the will of the popish clergy, that the people had recourse to this method of redress. “After which answer,” says sir James Balfour, “the congregation goes to the staitly monastry of Scone, and pulls it doun, and solemnly burns all the Eoman trashe, as images, altars, and the lyke. Then proceed they fordward to Stirling, Cambuskenneth, and Linlithgow, and there demolish and pull doun all whatsoever carried any symboll of the Roman harlot.” There was a reason to their madness: Originally Posted by Thomas M'Crie John Knox is said to have inculcated: “Down with those crow-nests, else the crows will big in them again." A lot of the churches were spared and were stripped out and converted, but the Protestants had been building their own churches for years before this happened.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 1st November 2009 at 03:14 AM.

1st November 2009, 04:28 AM	#305
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	Ah, now I understand you. It's a fascinating work you have there, indeed. I suggest you update your sources of information Ethnikos. Wikipedia wouldn't be a bad place to start. I'll post the references which might interest you most. One thing to keep in mind, Ethnikos, is that one of the honest-to-God popularly instigated actions of those devout Scots were the witch trials. And another-Scotland's religious history is significantly different than that of England. And another- the Roman invasion of Britain has little to do with ecclesiastical history. Quote: The "earlier Catholic scenario" was nothing but thievery. They would build a stronghold and live in it while they pillaged the land surrounding it. They gave nothing back to the people, other than the confidence of being considered good slaves by the powers that be, who show their kindness by not overrunning them and killing them all. Please consider your source, Ethnikos.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

1st November 2009, 04:41 AM	#306
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	This Thomas M'Crie the Elder^WP? Quote: ...While Dr. M'Crie was thus occupied, the bill introduced in 1829 for the emancipation of Roman Catholics from political restrictions, and their admission into places of authority and trust, was passed. It is perhaps unnecessary to add, that one who had studied and written as he had done, was entirely opposed to the measure. He not only thought it unsafe to concede such privileges, in a Protestant country, to men doing homage to a foreign ecclesiastical power and a hostile creed, but he was also of opinion that by such concessions our country abandoned the solemn covenants to which it had pledged itself since the Reformation, and forfeited the privileges which it enjoyed as the head of European Protestantism.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12. Last edited by pakeha; 1st November 2009 at 04:45 AM.

1st November 2009, 04:44 AM	#307
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	Not only sources but the time scale. perhaps? I really don't think you can just skip over the Roman occupation; the celtic church; the reformation; and the covenanters as if there was one main narrative thrust. We are talking about more than a thousand years here.
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	__________________ To see you, who you wanted to be, amongst the bastards out there. Damn you, Fiona - MattC. Damn you, Fi - SkeptikKhatt Damn you, anoiF - CriticalSock You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads! -realpaladin Last edited by Fiona; 1st November 2009 at 04:47 AM.

1st November 2009, 05:16 AM	#308
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	Indeed, Fiona, depending on whether you count the Roman occupation from Julius Caesar's time or from the divine Claudius', you could be forgiven for thinking we're talking about 1,800 years of history. That said, I'm also a Venerable Bede^WP fan myself. From the wiki Quote: In 708, a number of monks at Hexham accused Bede of heresy, because his work De Temporibus offered a different chronology of the Six ages of the world^WP theory than the one commonly accepted by theologians. The accusation occurred in front of the bishop of Hexham of the time, Wilfrid, who was present at a feast when some drunken monks made the accusation. Wilfrid did not respond to the accusation, but a monk present relayed the episode to Bede, who replied within a few days to the monk, writing a letter setting forth his defence and asking that the letter be read to Wilfrid also.[21][notes 2] Bede had another brush with Wilfrid, for the historian himself says that he met with Wilfrid, sometime between 706 and 709, and discussed Æthelthryth^WP, the abbess of Ely. Wilfrid had been present at the exhumation of her body in 695, and Bede questioned the bishop about the exact circumstances of the body and asked for more details of her life, as Wilfrid had been her advisor.[22] A fascinating character, was Bede. And Æthelthryth^WP is worthy of an historical novel in her own right and it was interesting to see where the cliche 'tawdry lace' is from.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

1st November 2009, 11:38 AM	#309
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by pakeha And another- the Roman invasion of Britain has little to do with ecclesiastical history. I didn't mean back in the day of Julius Caesar. I meant the time when the Roman Catholics sent over monks to infest the Isles.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

1st November 2009, 11:41 AM	#310
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by pakeha This Thomas M'Crie the Elder? Yes, a credit to his country. Really top notch.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

1st November 2009, 11:43 AM	#311
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I didn't mean back in the day of Julius Caesar. I meant the time when the Roman Catholics sent over monks to infest the Isles. What are you talking about? Have you been reading Westward Ho! or something?
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	__________________ To see you, who you wanted to be, amongst the bastards out there. Damn you, Fiona - MattC. Damn you, Fi - SkeptikKhatt Damn you, anoiF - CriticalSock You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads! -realpaladin

1st November 2009, 11:56 AM	#312
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by Fiona What are you talking about? Have you been reading Westward Ho! or something? No, but thanks for the recommendation. I downloaded the PDF from archive.org This is another example of a book in the public domain that someone can print up and make books of. I think I will print up a couple of copies and see how they go.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

1st November 2009, 12:07 PM	#313
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	It was NOT a recommendation. Ethnikos. It is a profoundly silly book.
Fiona Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,894	__________________ To see you, who you wanted to be, amongst the bastards out there. Damn you, Fiona - MattC. Damn you, Fi - SkeptikKhatt Damn you, anoiF - CriticalSock You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads! -realpaladin

1st November 2009, 01:06 PM	#314
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I didn't mean back in the day of Julius Caesar. I meant the time when the Roman Catholics sent over monks to infest the Isles. When Pope Celestine I sent over monks in the 5th century to Ireland? St Patrick^WP Quote: Most modern studies[which?] of Saint Patrick follow a variant of T. F. O'Rahilly's "Two Patricks" theory.[3] That is to say, many of the traditions later attached to Saint Patrick originally concerned Palladius, who Prosper of Aquitaine's Chronicle says was sent by Pope Celestine I as the first bishop to Irish Christians in 431.[4] Palladius was not the only early cleric in Ireland at this time. Saints Auxilius, Secundinus and Iserninus are associated with early churches in Munster and Leinster. By this reading, Palladius was active in Ireland until the 460s.[5] So were the beginnings of the celtic church. Added: Or when Quote: . In 597 Pope Gregory I sent Saint Augustine of Canterbury from Rome to evangelise the Angles; this event is known as the Gregorian mission. History of the Church of England^WP
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,046	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12. Last edited by pakeha; 1st November 2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: pope gregory I

1st November 2009, 01:27 PM	#315
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,582	Originally Posted by pakeha So were the beginnings of the celtic church. Apparently before that. The Isles were somewhat isolated from the continent by the channel, but there was a such thing as boats. Then you have people like Joseph of Arimathea who was a tin trader and that came from the Isles. from wikipedia: Quote: Later retellings of the story contend that Joseph of Arimathea himself travelled to Britain and became the first Christian bishop in the Isles. Of course legends does not make it true, but it seemed likely enough to people a long time ago that there could have been freelance evangelists who graced those shores.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment