Homeopathic Medicines are Effective

[Jeff Corey]

The courses are so diluted that there is no evidence that they actually exist.

[pakeha]

Nice one, Jeff Corey.

[PbFoot]

There are in fact two disorders that can be treated with homeopathy, and even a real MD will agree the cure worked.

1. Thrist (for water based treatments)
2. Low blood sugar. (for sugar pill based treatments)

Beyond that, homeopathy is ineffective.

-PbFoot

[skeptigirl]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Hi skeptics,

Topic related with this url http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com

This is Dr.Devendra Kumar Munta MD(Homeo), I am well known to this forum as Dr.Kumar,

I was worked as Research Fellow under CCRH,India but now I left that post and working fulltime for Homeopathy to show objective evidence for the action of homeopathy.

Long back I had posts on Homeopathy as" Homeopathy is not placebo".

There was great discussison on the subject, people criticized homeopathy like anything.

I also got doubt wether Homeopathy is working? I wanted to leave the proffesion, if homeopathy is not effective.

But I can't, because Homeopathy is working and most effective. after this objective evidence I can't be quite without believing homeopathy,

This time I came with some more observations that homeopathy is effective and there is objective evidence for homeopathic medicinal action and is working on natural priciples unlike allopathy

come and share my observations on homeopathy,

http://homeoresearch.co.cc or http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com

Thanks,

Dr.Devendra Kumar Munta,
MD(Homeo)

Good grief.

[skyhand]

I took a quick look through Dr. Kamar's web site and something from his book just jumped out to me.

"In this book I have explained the way how to identify Homeopathic medicines without label."

Telling the difference between bottles filled with distilled water must be difficult. It would require things yet to be invented or magic.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by skyhand

I took a quick look through Dr. Kamar's web site and something from his book just jumped out to me.

"In this book I have explained the way how to identify Homeopathic medicines without label."

Telling the difference between bottles filled with distilled water must be difficult. It would require things yet to be invented or magic.

If he can do it he can win a million dollars.

Discussion of proposed protocols for the MDC can be found in a thread he started here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126542

[pakeha]

Thanks for the link, Mojo.
Off to read.

[pakeha]

Well, that was interesting, especially the side-trip to the homeo forum.
I had no idea that to date, no study shows any indication homeopathy performs better than the placebo effect.

[Mojo]

Note muntadev2in's last post there:

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I will be back with my blind studies. I am not getting time to conduct experiments I told you, I am working as Researc asst My equipement at my home town. I hope I will get tranfer soon. I will surely claim for MDC.

Aslo I have to plan how to escape from your mazical statistics.

Hope we all will meet at a desk soon.

Thanks,

Dr.Devendra Kumar munta.

Have you conducted your blind studies yet, muntadev2in?

[Mojo]

http://www.minimum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=280

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

In this connection Quantum theory, Theory of relativity, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, Newton gravitational laws, Biorhythms, Thermodynamics, Avogadro law, properties of alcohol and Hydrogen bond network are few areas to be investigated.

I would also be interested to hear more about the "Water Molecule theory of Brian" mentioned in his second post there.

[laca]

Originally Posted by Mojo

http://www.minimum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=280






I would also be interested to hear more about the "Water Molecule theory of Brian" mentioned in his second post there.

Wow! Almost everything gets mentioned that surely points to quacks, and some new ones! Excellent

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Mojo

http://www.minimum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=280






I would also be interested to hear more about the "Water Molecule theory of Brian" mentioned in his second post there.

Well, Mojo, that was quite a ride indeed, though I would have apreciated some sort of warning- I actually thought it was a spoof site, especially after reading:

Quote:

The owners of this board disclaim responsibility for its contents.
Using information from these forums may cause serious harm to health.
For any concerns about health, always consult a licenced medical practitioner
through their own office and do not use information from these forums

Anyway, I too would like to know more about the "Water Molecule Theory of Brian".

[Jeff Corey]

Brian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0

[pakeha]

Brilliant, Jeff Corey, but somehow I think the good doctor had someone else in mind.

[muntadev2in]

Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine, continuosly for 10 days and observe the status of your health. It needs keen observation of your thoughts and physical status of your body. You will come to know wether homeopathy is working or not. you will not do this, why ? you or not dare enough to do. but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal.

or do one thing,

Give one dose of sulphur 200c freshly medicated 9 pills to a healthy human subject or to a animal model.

Get physiological variability in skin temperature by connecting water/soil temperature sensor.

get readings for 5 mits, at an intervel of 1sec, total you will get 300 readings -

like this take reading before applying medicine and half an hour after applying medicine.

Get poincare plot from the obtained readings, before and after medicine,

just do it in one case, you will not fail to see the result tht homeopathic medicine is effective.

Before posting any comment further do this experiment or else request forum admin to make arrangements to conduct this simple test. Hope you will enjoy the Homeopathy.

you will get sensors and dataloggers in the US market only. visit my website to get more info on dataloggers http://homeoresearch.co.cc

Thanks,

Dr.Devendra Kumar

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal.

It is not only verbal. Numerous studies have been performed using real homoeopathy, and when bias has been controlled for, there is no effect.

Why should we do something that can only lead to anecdotal evidence, where we have no controls of the starting condition, and no prediction of the expected results, and no way of knowing how the health situation would develop withoput the experiment?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine, continuosly for 10 days and observe the status of your health. It needs keen observation of your thoughts and physical status of your body. You will come to know wether homeopathy is working or not. you will not do this, why ? you or not dare enough to do. but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal.

We dare. Several of us have tried homeopathic remedies, according to the recommendations of various homeopaths. None of us observed any effect. Why do you suppose that this time would be different?

Quote:

or do one thing,

Give one dose of sulphur 200c freshly medicated 9 pills to a healthy human subject or to a animal model.

*SNIP*

Before posting any comment further do this experiment or else request forum admin to make arrangements to conduct this simple test. Hope you will enjoy the Homeopathy.

You have published the result of such a test, made by yourself. You were unable to explain how the result was significant.

Anyhow, it is your task to prove homeopathy, not our task to disprove it.

Quote:

you will get sensors and dataloggers in the US market only. visit my website to get more info on dataloggers http://homeoresearch.co.cc

Nonsense, sensors and data loggers are available on the world market.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

A note on the Kumar/Kumar confusion:

Kumar is a quite common name in India and Pakistan. Iti s not surprising that we should encounter more than one Kumar.

As for our old Kumar friend, he has been silent for a long time now. Since he probably suffered from advanced type 2 diabetes with kidney complications, I fear he may not be among us anymore.

Hans

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

As for our old Kumar friend, he has been silent for a long time now. Since he probably suffered from advanced type 2 diabetes with kidney complications, I fear he may not be among us anymore.

Do you think he would stick to homeopathy to the end?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Before posting any comment further do this experiment or else request forum admin to make arrangements to conduct this simple test. Hope you will enjoy the Homeopathy.

You said, in your last post before you started this thread, that you would be back with the results of blinded studies:

Originally Posted by muntadev2in on 11th November 2008

I will be back with my blind studies.

It's been nearly a year. Have you carried out these "blind studies" that you said you would be back with? What were the results?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by steenkh

Why should we do something that can only lead to anecdotal evidence, where we have no controls of the starting condition, and no prediction of the expected results, and no way of knowing how the health situation would develop withoput the experiment?

Because that's the only way you will see any apparent effect.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Mojo

It's been nearly a year. Have you carried out these "blind studies" that you said you would be back with? What were the results?

He probably had to give up the study because some inexplicable experimental error caused the results to be equal to the placebo effect?

[Aitch]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

A note on the Kumar/Kumar confusion:

Kumar is a quite common name in India and Pakistan. Iti s not surprising that we should encounter more than one Kumar.

Heck, they even got their own TV series.

[Epok]

I'm not paying for any homeopathic remedies until I see the results of a clinical trial that gives evidence that it works.

[laca]

Originally Posted by Epok

I'm not paying for any homeopathic remedies until I see the results of a clinical trial that gives evidence that it works.

Hmm, does that mean you're not paying for water? Sugar? Alcohol?

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by Aitch

Heck, they even got their own TV series.

Dude, so wrong. It's a homeopathic dose of THC that's a downer...http://hawyn316.files.wordpress.com/...ite_castle.jpg

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine, continuosly for 10 days and observe the status of your health. It needs keen observation of your thoughts and physical status of your body. You will come to know wether homeopathy is working or not. you will not do this, why ? you or not dare enough to do. but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal.

or do one thing,

Give one dose of sulphur 200c freshly medicated 9 pills to a healthy human subject or to a animal model.

Get physiological variability in skin temperature by connecting water/soil temperature sensor.

get readings for 5 mits, at an intervel of 1sec, total you will get 300 readings -

like this take reading before applying medicine and half an hour after applying medicine.

Get poincare plot from the obtained readings, before and after medicine,

just do it in one case, you will not fail to see the result tht homeopathic medicine is effective.

Before posting any comment further do this experiment or else request forum admin to make arrangements to conduct this simple test. Hope you will enjoy the Homeopathy.

you will get sensors and dataloggers in the US market only. visit my website to get more info on dataloggers http://homeoresearch.co.cc

Thanks,

Dr.Devendra Kumar

Thanks for the idea.
I have no idea what this remedy is for, possibly I'm overly suspicious, but it seems strange to me that someone would recommend something for complete strangers.
I'm pretty ignorant, so I'd appreciate an explanation of the remedy.
To tell the truth, I don't see this as a way of collecting evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic remedies, but rather of individual anecdotes.
How are the blinded studies going?
I'm looking forward to seeing what they yield.
All the best.

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine, continuosly for 10 days and observe the status of your health. It needs keen observation of your thoughts and physical status of your body. You will come to know wether homeopathy is working or not. you will not do this, why ? you or not dare enough to do. but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal.

I've got a better idea that would be far more convincing:

• Make or buy enough of a homeopathic remedy for 100 people.
• Make or buy enough of an identical appearing placebo for 100 people.
• Buy 200 containers and put a number on each of them.
• Have a trusted third party place either a homeopathic remedy or a placebo in each container on the basis of a coin flip, keeping careful record of which container contains what. (This record is to be kept secret from you until the experiment is finished.)
• Give the contents of these containers to 200 volunteers, carefully recording which volunteer gets which container.
• Monitor the volunteers and record the effects.
• Make a list showing which volunteers were and were not affected, along with which container they were given, and distribute this list.
• Have the person who filled the containers distribute the list showing which containers held the placebo, and which containers held the remedy.
• Combine the lists and compare the number of people who experienced effects from a placebo with the number of people who experienced effects from the remedy.

This test may be a little complicated to arrange, but you end up with a randomized double-blind controlled study providing scientific evidence of the effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) of homeopathy.

A study like this isn't particularly expensive, difficult or time consuming to arrange, so where are all the scientific valid studies showing homeopathy to be effective?

[quarky]

I'm seeing it like this tonight:

Homeopathy is a form of self-hypnosis. It could have the power to activate strong confirmation bias, while distracting the logical mind and its bad behaviors.
In the sense, it could be quite effective for some less than life threatening conditions.

This effect would be lost in any test like setting. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That doesn't mean it is worthless. Hypnotism or even relaxation music wouldn't work with background noise. We empower the placebo to facilitate real improvement through our ignorance. Once you know its a placebo, no more effect...which is sort of a shame.

I should think homeopathy has a slight edge over a placebo, if only because one isn't expecting any side effects, as with most double blind drug tests.

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by quarky

I'm seeing it like this tonight:

Homeopathy is a form of self-hypnosis. It could have the power to activate strong confirmation bias, while distracting the logical mind and its bad behaviors.
In the sense, it could be quite effective for some less than life threatening conditions.

This effect would be lost in any test like setting.

There is no need to perform the test in a test like setting. In the test I describe, you could mail the containers to the volunteers to be taken in their own homes, the same way as they would take any other homeopathic remedies, and phone them up at a later date to ask them how well it went. If you don't tell the volunteers that half of them are getting placebos, then they will have the same confidence that they have in any other homeopathic remedy as well.

Originally Posted by quarky

I should think homeopathy has a slight edge over a placebo, if only because one isn't expecting any side effects, as with most double blind drug tests.

One isn't expecting any side-effects from a placebo either, so it shouldn't effect the outcome of a study of homeopathy.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by pakeha

I have no idea what this remedy is for, possibly I'm overly suspicious, but it seems strange to me that someone would recommend something for complete strangers.

And it is not even homoeopathy. According to homoeopathy you must tailor the remedies to the specific symptoms of the patient. No single remedy is supposed to improve health in general, though of course many homoeopaths ignore this and hand out remedies without examining the patient: just look at the over-the-counter homoeopathic stocks of pharmacists.

On the contrary, homoeopaths believe that homoeopathic remedies have a negativeeffect on healthy persons, so Dr. Kumar is effectively recommending us to try something that will make most of us feel worse!

And finally, we know from experience that when skeptics do as the homoeopaths want and take those remedies, the homoeopaths accuse them of lying when they report "no effect".

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by steenkh

...On the contrary, homoeopaths believe that homoeopathic remedies have a negativeeffect on healthy persons, so Dr. Kumar is effectively recommending us to try something that will make most of us feel worse! ...

So that's why Randi in his wisdom decided the homeopathic test should be that a homeopath distinguish between a remedy and ordinary water. By any means.
At least that's the way I understand it.

Dr Kumar, is this right? That taking a homeopathic remedy has bad effects for healthy people?
How do your feel about testing, rather than the effects of homeopathic remedies on healthy people, your ability to distinguish between a remedy and plain tap water?

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by steenkh

On the contrary, homoeopaths believe that homoeopathic remedies have a negativeeffect on healthy persons, so Dr. Kumar is effectively recommending us to try something that will make most of us feel worse!

In that case, at least we would know it was doing something. Perhaps we should be testing it against the nocebo effect?

Proving any effect, even a negative one, would go a long way to convincing skeptics that there's some truth to homeopathic claims.

[pakeha]

Hmm.
No.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by steenkh

And it is not even homoeopathy. According to homoeopathy you must tailor the remedies to the specific symptoms of the patient. No single remedy is supposed to improve health in general, though of course many homoeopaths ignore this and hand out remedies without examining the patient: just look at the over-the-counter homoeopathic stocks of pharmacists.

On the contrary, homoeopaths believe that homoeopathic remedies have a negativeeffect on healthy persons, so Dr. Kumar is effectively recommending us to try something that will make most of us feel worse!

And finally, we know from experience that when skeptics do as the homoeopaths want and take those remedies, the homoeopaths accuse them of lying when they report "no effect".

Well, the thing is that someone taking a homoeopathic remedy will inevitably exhibit symptoms of one sort or another - it's just that without a control or an adequate sample size there is no way of knowing whether they were caused by the remedy.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Well, the thing is that someone taking a homoeopathic remedy will inevitably exhibit symptoms of one sort or another - it's just that without a control or an adequate sample size there is no way of knowing whether they were caused by the remedy.

I am not sure if there will "inevitably" be symptoms of one sort of another. MRC_Hans did not report any symptoms worth mentioning when he tried it, as far as I can recall. James Randi, and many others have taken homoeopathic drugs in public, with no effects, good or bad.

[Rolfe]

Yes, I think he's suggesting we perform a proving of sulphur 10M.

I received the identical challenge from a homoeopath colleague, except that he suggested Belladonna 30C. I did it, but I didn't notice any effects at all. Apart from being £4.95 poorer for about 5g of sugar.

I suggested to him that he should demonstrate to us that he cuold tell the difference between the real Belladonna 30C and a sham preparation, in the same way - then we'd be impressed. He launched into a spiel about how I totally didn't understand how homoeopathy worked, that you'd need a team of at least 10 provers to elicit the proper proving spectrum for Belladonna, and the idea was ridiculous (and who was I calling a "sham" by the way).



So, a single unblinded test is supposed to produce marked, unmistakeable signs. But blinded, you need a team of at least 10 people to get even a hint of whether you've been given the remedy or the sham.

And they won't get their act together to try that, even for a million bucks.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by steenkh

I am not sure if there will "inevitably" be symptoms of one sort of another. MRC_Hans did not report any symptoms worth mentioning when he tried it, as far as I can recall. James Randi, and many others have taken homoeopathic drugs in public, with no effects, good or bad.

Yes, but you then get the homoeopaths interpreting every little, everyday effect as a "symptom". Hans said he was sick of the taste of the lactose tablets, and one of the homoeopaths suggested that this was a "symptom", for example.

If you get a headache (even if you get them often), or sneeze, or maybe there is a car accident outside your house - all these count. And then they want to know about the appearance and consistency of bodily secretions and excretions, and declare these to be significant also.

Didn't one substance allegedly produce a proving of "dislikes green wallpaper"?

Something always happens.

Rolfe.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Out of curiosity a small question for homeopaths.
As far as I know the claim for this system working is that a massively diluted active compound still produces the desired effect. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
But if this is the case, Ethanol is an active compound that has proven, profound and clearly determined effects on the human body. Granted, they might not be healing, but they are easily testable.

Why not test the effects of homeopathically diluted vodka or other spirits, when compared to normal concentrations. After all, if the theory is sustainable people should get equally drunk. If you can prove this a lot of breweries would be very grateful to you as well.

[H3LL]

Ooh! Ooh! Homeopathy.

Another chance to post my favourite YouTube clip:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Many thanks to Dr.Devendra Kumar Munta for providing such excellent source material.

I'll sure he's delighted that his life's work is fodder for popular comedians and that it's all that it's good for.

Well done.


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