Homeopathic Medicines are Effective

[Ocelot]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine,

I daren't. I'm on allopathic pills and occasionally forget to take 'em. If I did that with homeopathic pills it'd be a massive overdose.

[AdinDraco]

Just remember, if you're going to do Randi's thing of buying a bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and taking the entire lot in a public forum, make sure that they actually are properly homeopathic. There have been incidents of "homeopathic" remedies sneaking in actual active ingredients (gasp!). Some of them can't even stay true to their own warped doctrine. (My wife thought homeopathic had herbs etc in it - until I explained it).

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by AdinDraco

Just remember, if you're going to do Randi's thing of buying a bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and taking the entire lot in a public forum, make sure that they actually are properly homeopathic. There have been incidents of "homeopathic" remedies sneaking in actual active ingredients (gasp!). Some of them can't even stay true to their own warped doctrine. (My wife thought homeopathic had herbs etc in it - until I explained it).

And remember that not all homoeopathic pills are sprayed with a substance diluted past Avogadro's limit. Some may contain a trace of the original mother tincture.

When I checked the pills in a local pharmacy, I was surprised to see that several had ingredients of only 2C or 4C dilution. Check the label.

[Aitch]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Out of curiosity a small question for homeopaths.
As far as I know the claim for this system working is that a massively diluted active compound still produces the desired effect. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
But if this is the case, Ethanol is an active compound that has proven, profound and clearly determined effects on the human body. Granted, they might not be healing, but they are easily testable.

Why not test the effects of homeopathically diluted vodka or other spirits, when compared to normal concentrations. After all, if the theory is sustainable people should get equally drunk. If you can prove this a lot of breweries would be very grateful to you as well.

That doesn't seem to include the like cures like bit of the 'theory' though.

Presumably a homeopathic alcohol preperation should negate the effects of real alcohol - ie a couple of drops should sober up a drunk. Maybe it does - it just takes 12 hours to take effect.

[pakeha]

Aitch, I think there's an idea for a workable protocol in that last post of yours.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Aitch

That doesn't seem to include the like cures like bit of the 'theory' though.

Presumably a homeopathic alcohol preperation should negate the effects of real alcohol - ie a couple of drops should sober up a drunk. Maybe it does - it just takes 12 hours to take effect.

Strictly speaking, that is Isopathy.

Hans

[Almo]

Originally Posted by H3LL

Ooh! Ooh! Homeopathy.

Another chance to post my favourite YouTube clip:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Many thanks to Dr.Devendra Kumar Munta for providing such excellent source material.

Hahahah!

"I'm tired of this with homeopaths saying 'Oh, science doesn't know everything.' Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop."

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Almo

Hahahah!

"I'm tired of this with homeopaths saying 'Oh, science doesn't know everything.' Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop."

And the fact that science doesn't know everything is no reason to ignore what it does know.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Aitch

That doesn't seem to include the like cures like bit of the 'theory' though.

Presumably a homeopathic alcohol preperation should negate the effects of real alcohol - ie a couple of drops should sober up a drunk. Maybe it does - it just takes 12 hours to take effect.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Strictly speaking, that is Isopathy.

It isn't surprising that people get isopathy confused with homoeopathy, when someone who is described as an "Expert in homeopathic medicine" and "the foremost spokesperson for homeopathic medicine in the U.S." claims that the underlying principle of homeopathy is "the use of small doses of whatever may cause illness in order to catalyze immune response".

[Epok]

Originally Posted by laca

Hmm, does that mean you're not paying for water? Sugar? Alcohol?

Not if it cost $50 for a little bitty bottle. :P

[quarky]

A quick, lazy question:

Has homeopathy been around longer than vaccinations?
I can imagine how the idea may have sprung from germ theory.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by quarky

A quick, lazy question:

Has homeopathy been around longer than vaccinations?
I can imagine how the idea may have sprung from germ theory.

Depends on what you mean by "vaccination". A practice called "inocculation" was used with some success as early as during the American War of Independence, where general Washington caused his entire army to be inoculated against smallpox.

[M.ister W]

Quick short answer - about the same amount of time.

Homeopathy dates from about 1796 and Jenner used the word vaccination in 1796.

[Skeptic Guy]

Originally Posted by H3LL

Ooh! Ooh! Homeopathy.

Another chance to post my favourite YouTube clip:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Many thanks to Dr.Devendra Kumar Munta for providing such excellent source material.

I'll sure he's delighted that his life's work is fodder for popular comedians and that it's all that it's good for.

Well done.


.

That is brilliant. I never heard of that comedian before, but will have to watch more of him. Youtube does have some value.

Now, what happened to the OP?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by quarky

A quick, lazy question:

Has homeopathy been around longer than vaccinations?
I can imagine how the idea may have sprung from germ theory.

Homoeopathy predates the germ theory of disease, hence its claim that disease is caused by "miasms". Homoeopaths aren't supposed to know anything that Hahnemann didn't know.

[muntadev2in]

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com

The above are the graphs obtained from my patients after giving a dose of indicated homeopathic medicine.

Observe the rhythmic behavior in parametric reconstruction (I am very thankful to the intelligence who has produced such a powerful tool in statistics.)This is the evidence for the homeopathic remedy is acting.

Below 2 graphs are taken before giving homeopathic remedy from my patients. Irregular patterns in graph is the indication for disturbance in physiological variability and the person is in need of homeopathic remedy.

I have experimented on hundreds of patients, the mentioned graphs are few for example.
I hope you will understand what’s going on. Of course it needs sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics, homeopathic philosophy, homeopathic materia medica, homeopathic pharmacy, and computer application.

Do any of you people in this discussion who has had commented possess knowledge in the above mentioned areas? If not you are not eligible for commenting on homeopathy.
For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients.

But it is not difficult to conduct the blind study. I am planning for that.
It is my responsibility to prove homeopathy and make you people (who have biased and fixed ideas) to get benefitted by such a great system of medicine,Homeopathy.

You might have suffering from diseases which are not answerable with so called modern system of medicine. Think with reason gifted mind and use homeopathy otherwise you will loose the change of leading this life with ease and in co-operation with the nature.

[RossFW]

Munt,

Please explain how a solution that contains not one molecule of the active ingredient can be causative.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Get that accepted by a peer reviewed journal, and you might have something.

How are we supposed to know that you did not just make up the data?

Edit to add: I looked at your website: Your use of graphs is often called "Baffling with Bull Excrement" (the real sentence uses a four letter word that starts with "s" and ends with "t"). You have nothing.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients.

But it is not difficult to conduct the blind study. I am planning for that.

That's what you said the last time your presented your graphs here, which was months ago. It was patiently explained to you then that without blind studies your results are meaningless. You have therefore been wasting the little time you say you have for all those months compiling more meaningless graphs, and you are wasting even more of your precious time posting here now. Either go away and do blind studies and come back when you have some meaningful results, or just go away and stop wasting your - and our - time.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

To be fair, I suspect such double blind tests HAVE been performed. By the very evil that homeopathy generally rails against, Big Pharma.

Which used to be called "pharmaceutical companies" until the new-agers decided it doesn't sound sinister enough.

[Skeptic]

The essence of homeopathic "evidence": people who are given homeopathic medicine for minor ailments, knowing they are given homeopathic medicines, tend to, eventually, feel better, and claim it's all due to the homeopathic medicine.

It's a miracle! What more proof do you want?

P.S.

I attempted suicide again in front of my summer semester class. Took a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops -- about 50 to 100 (don't remember exactly) times the recommended allowance.

Nothing happened, except for the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the believing students (of which they were a few) in the audience. Then they explained to me that it wouldn't kill me unless I believed it works.

I told them, again, that something that doesn't have any effect unless you believe it should has a different, more common name than "homeopathic medicine" -- namely, "delusion".

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide

Get that accepted by a peer reviewed journal, and you might have something.

Not necessarily.

Quote:

How are we supposed to know that you did not just make up the data?

Peer-review would not actually ensure that the data was not made up - just (if it works properly) that there are no theoretical errors and that the conclusions actually follow from the data presented.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I have experimented on hundreds of patients, the mentioned graphs are few for example.

...

For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients.

And yet you have plenty of time to conduct experiments on "hundreds of patients", and compile your graphs.

Last time you spent some time on this board (almost a year ago) your very last post said:

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I will be back with my blind studies.

You had a different excuse for not doing it then, of course:

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I am not getting time to conduct experiments I told you, I am working as Researc asst My equipement at my home town. I hope I will get tranfer soon. I will surely claim for MDC.

But having promised to return here with your blind studies, and having ceased the job as a research assistant which was preventing you carrying them out (while apparently giving you plenty of time to conduct the unblinded experiments that produce your graphs), you have returned here with more of the same graphs. No progress.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I hope you will understand what’s going on. Of course it needs sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics, homeopathic philosophy, homeopathic materia medica, homeopathic pharmacy, and computer application.

Do any of you people in this discussion who has had commented possess knowledge in the above mentioned areas? If not you are not eligible for commenting on homeopathy.

This is just a variation on the argument used by the tailors in The Emperor's New Clothes.

If you are capable of carrying out properly blinded studies, all that will be necessary to discuss the results will be a fairly basic knowledge of statistics.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

muntadev2in

I think it is time now for you to answer a very simple question and to do it in your own words, no cutting and pasting.

What is the purpose of experimental controls in tests of medical treatments?

This is literally so simple that a child should be able to answer it correctly.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4Qj2pBWNw6...athy+acted.PNG...You might have suffering from diseases which are not answerable with so called modern system of medicine. Think with reason gifted mind and use homeopathy otherwise you will loose the change of leading this life with ease and in co-operation with the nature.

Loose change, is it?
Tell us about the towers again. Was a homeopathic dose of semtex used?

[fls]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com

The above are the graphs obtained from my patients after giving a dose of indicated homeopathic medicine.

Observe the rhythmic behavior in parametric reconstruction (I am very thankful to the intelligence who has produced such a powerful tool in statistics.)This is the evidence for the homeopathic remedy is acting.

Below 2 graphs are taken before giving homeopathic remedy from my patients. Irregular patterns in graph is the indication for disturbance in physiological variability and the person is in need of homeopathic remedy.

I have experimented on hundreds of patients, the mentioned graphs are few for example.
I hope you will understand what’s going on. Of course it needs sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics, homeopathic philosophy, homeopathic materia medica, homeopathic pharmacy, and computer application.

Do any of you people in this discussion who has had commented possess knowledge in the above mentioned areas? If not you are not eligible for commenting on homeopathy.
For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients.

But it is not difficult to conduct the blind study. I am planning for that.
It is my responsibility to prove homeopathy and make you people (who have biased and fixed ideas) to get benefitted by such a great system of medicine,Homeopathy.

You might have suffering from diseases which are not answerable with so called modern system of medicine. Think with reason gifted mind and use homeopathy otherwise you will loose the change of leading this life with ease and in co-operation with the nature.

I understand that you are busy. Here is a simple blind study that you can perform by doing what you are already doing. Prepare 10 Belladonna 200C remedies. Prepare 10 more remedies exactly the same way, but do not include the Belladonna. Obtain 20 identical containers and number them from 1 to 20. Give the containers and the remedies to someone that you won't talk to or see after they have performed this task for you. Ask them to go away to a separate room where you cannot see them work. They place either a Belladonna remedy or a non-remedy in each container in a random fashion. They can do this by writing the numbers 1 to 20 on separate pieces of paper. They place the pieces of paper in a bag and shake them up. They draw out one piece of paper at a time and note the number on the paper. They put a Belladonna remedy in the container that has the same number as is on the piece of paper, then put that paper aside. After they have drawn 10 pieces of paper, all the Belladonna remedies should have been placed into containers. They write down which containers contain the Belladonna remedies on a piece of paper which is placed in an envelope and sealed. They fill the remaining containers with the non-remedy. They keep the envelope in a place where you cannot see it and then send it to a third party (I can be that third party for you). They gather up the numbered papers and throw them away in a place where you cannot see them. Then they bring the numbered containers back to you.

You continue to perform your experiments as you have been doing, using one of the numbered containers each time. Write down the number of the container you used beside the subject identifier (i.e. their name or their subject number). When you have used all 20 containers, write down which subjects received the Belladonna remedy and which subjects received the non-remedy. Send that information (including the information about the container number of the remedy they received) to the third party. They will open the sealed envelope and write down how often you were correct. If homeopathic remedies have an effect you can see, then you will have correctly identified which of your subjects received the Belladonna remedy and which of them received the non-remedy. If you do this, it will make those people who have criticized you look foolish.

Linda

[JWideman]

Isn't this the guy with the graphs he said indicated homeopathic remedy vs placebo, but could only spot the graph that indicated the remedy if he already knew which was which?

[jimtron]

Originally Posted by H3LL

Ooh! Ooh! Homeopathy.

Another chance to post my favourite YouTube clip:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Many thanks to Dr.Devendra Kumar Munta for providing such excellent source material.

I'll sure he's delighted that his life's work is fodder for popular comedians and that it's all that it's good for.

Well done.


.

Thanks for posting that clip--it's hilarious.
"There's more to life than evidence"
"Get in the f****** sack."

[muntadev2in]

If you people can send 20 sample of Homeopathic medicine and Placebo (just alcohol wet) pills I can differenciate which one is potentized and which one is not potentized.

You can send samples to:

Dr.Devendra Kumar MD(Homeo),
usha homeo clinic,
opp.Vijaya bank,
Rajagari centre,
machilipatnam,
krishna dt - 521002,
andrapradesh,
India.
mob:91-9440369772

[muntadev2in]

I am not talking about mother tinctures. My work deals with homeopathic potentized medicines.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4Qj2pBWNw6...athy+acted.PNG

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com

The above are the graphs obtained from my patients after giving a dose of indicated homeopathic medicine.

Observe the rhythmic behavior in parametric reconstruction (I am very thankful to the intelligence who has produced such a powerful tool in statistics.)This is the evidence for the homeopathic remedy is acting.

Below 2 graphs are taken before giving homeopathic remedy from my patients. Irregular patterns in graph is the indication for disturbance in physiological variability and the person is in need of homeopathic remedy.

Say what?? Please don't cargo-cult science like that. You cannot throw up unlabled graphs to argue your points when you don't even take the time to describe what's being measured in them. Next time, please elaborate on what is being quantified. Just saying "irregular patterns in the graph" is meaningless when you do not explain what it is that's being irregular (for example: Heartbeat, peristaltic activity, EEG activity, etc.). Please label your axes and describe what is being graphed in relationship to what. After that, please explain why the relationships your graphs supposedly demonstrate are supposed to be significant, and what they indicate. Don't just throw supposed "measurements" out there to make it look like you're being rigorous. Not explaining what is being quantified is the epitome of failing to be rigorous. And a graph devoid of labels for what is being measured as well as what units the measurements are in to begin with are completely uninformative.

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I have experimented on hundreds of patients, the mentioned graphs are few for example.
I hope you will understand what’s going on. Of course it needs sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics, homeopathic philosophy, homeopathic materia medica, homeopathic pharmacy, and computer application.

Do any of you people in this discussion who has had commented possess knowledge in the above mentioned areas? If not you are not eligible for commenting on homeopathy.

Please pay attention to what FLS has written above. The key to understanding is not to throw out numbers, but to demonstrate through blinded studies that the effect exists outside of your (as the investigator's) bias, and only then working to determine the mechanism behind how the effect is induced. You've gotten nowhere close to doing that.

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients.

You have the cart before the horse here. Until blinded studies vs. controls demonstrates an effect, you cannot claim that a method cures your patients. Forget "sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics", blah blah blah, you first need to establish sound knowledge in scientific method.

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

But it is not difficult to conduct the blind study. I am planning for that.
It is my responsibility to prove homeopathy and make you people (who have biased and fixed ideas) to get benefitted by such a great system of medicine,Homeopathy.

You might have suffering from diseases which are not answerable with so called modern system of medicine. Think with reason gifted mind and use homeopathy otherwise you will loose the change of leading this life with ease and in co-operation with the nature.

Promises of future action and appeals to emotion are both equally empty. You shouldn't talk about benefitting patients until you can establish that benefits actually occur, and you cannot do that without blinded, replicable studies. You can not.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Second time of asking, and we do need munta to answer, because whatever his willingness to attempt fls's test, he has given no indication of understanding its necessity.

We see this frequently with Homs and other SCAMsters, they regard controlled trials as being merely to illustrate what they already 'know' and also to satisfy what the see as the petty nit-picking of sceptics.

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

muntadev2in

I think it is time now for you to answer a very simple question and to do it in your own words, no cutting and pasting.

What is the purpose of experimental controls in tests of medical treatments?

This is literally so simple that a child should be able to answer it correctly.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

If you people can send 20 sample of Homeopathic medicine and Placebo (just alcohol wet) pills I can differenciate which one is potentized and which one is not potentized.

Have you ever tried this experiment, with someone you trust rather than strangers on the internet providing the samples? That's the first step. Only when you have successfully performed this experiment should you even make this claim, let alone offer to prove it with samples provided by us. No-one who had the slightest understanding of the scientific method would make such a claim without testing it first. Yet you have not posted the results of such an experiment, suggesting that BSM is correct in his assumption that you still haven't grasped why you need to do such experiments before you start making the claims you have made.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

If you people can send 20 sample of Homeopathic medicine and Placebo (just alcohol wet) pills I can differenciate which one is potentized and which one is not potentized.

It seems like only yesterday you were claiming that you don't have the time to perform an experiment of this sort.

Oh, hang on: it was only yesterday.

[muntadev2in]

I dont want to argue with you people more. It is wise to approach in a practical manner,

Homeopathic medicine action - Evidence 100

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I dont want to argue with you people more. It is wise to approach in a practical manner,

Homeopathic medicine action - Evidence 100

No, you clearly don't want to argue. You want us to take your fatuous evidence at face value and thank you for what you have done. Ironically, this exactly the paternalistic attitude that is so often criticised by SCAM practitioners, but perfectly exemplified by them.

If you wanted to approach this in an honest, thoughtful and self-aware manner you would make a genuine attempt to answer this question, which I now ask for the third time;

What is the purpose of experimental controls in tests of medical treatments?

This is still literally so simple that a child should be able to answer it correctly.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

I dont want to argue with you people more. It is wise to approach in a practical manner,

Homeopathic medicine action - Evidence 100

What is wise is to understand how to properly analyze the effect one is claiming to study. This goes back to both BSM's question about the purpose of testing against controls in an experiment, and FLS's suggestion about blinding the studies.

You should really respond to both those posts with real substance. So far, you haven't done so.

[muntadev2in]

Repeatedly you are asking for controls, that means you have nt gone through my blog. experiments with Sulphur and gelsemium 200c, posts

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...meopathic.html

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...pathic_14.html

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

muntadev2in

You continue to make posts that show no proper understanding of how trials should be conducted and you have still not answered my question. You will have to accept that I see these two facts to be closely connected.

So, for the fourth time of asking;

What is the purpose of experimental controls in tests of medical treatments?

Perhaps you need a clue as to what would constitute a competent answer: the key word is 'purpose'. In other words, what do controls do for the experimenter?