New 2010 Rules for Truckers

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 09:24 PM

This might not seem like a big deal right now, but let me clue you in on this.

In 2010, points will be assessed against truck drivers based on their records. While this has been going on for a while, what makes it even worse is that now, when you get pulled into the scales, if you get a fix-it ticket, you will be assessed points for that ticket. If these reach a certain point, you will forfeit your driver's license, and you will be unemployable.

Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED!

Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days.

quixotecoyote · 15th October 2009, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED!

Is the idea to get you to refuse to drive the unsafe trucks?

Puppycow · 15th October 2009, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days.

What does this have to do with Barack Obama?

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

What does this have to do with Barack Obama?

His proposal, his watch. His DOT Secretary.

BobTheDonkey · 15th October 2009, 09:32 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought states determined their own point rules.

As in, NY state doesn't accept out-of-state points and awards points for traffic infractions that other states I've lived in didn't award points for (speeding <10mph over the limit is 0 pts in OK, 3pts in NY).

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Is the idea to get you to refuse to drive the unsafe trucks?

On the surface, yes. But the problem is, the drivers are the ones who get the worst of it. Nor is there a drop dead date on any of this; your records count regardless, from three years back. It might be fair if only infractions that come from January 1, 2010 count, but that's not how they're working it.

quixotecoyote · 15th October 2009, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

On the surface, yes. But the problem is, the drivers are the ones who get the worst of it. Nor is there a drop dead date on any of this; your records count regardless, from three years back. It might be fair if only infractions that come from January 1, 2010 count, but that's not how they're working it.

Shades of ex post facto!

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought states determined their own point rules.

As in, NY state doesn't accept out-of-state points and awards points for traffic infractions that other states I've lived in didn't award points for (speeding <10mph over the limit is 0 pts in OK, 3pts in NY).

I'll need to look into this in more detail. I think we're now going into a phase where the Feds are determining point count.

I'm not as worried about myself; I avoid speeding like the plague, I do pretrips, and I'm not about to do anything as stupid as drive drunk or stoned. But when I find I'm working for a troll of an employer that WON'T MAINTAIN HIS EQUIPMENT, I get worried.

BobTheDonkey · 15th October 2009, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

I'll need to look into this in more detail. I think we're now going into a phase where the Feds are determining point count.

I'm not as worried about myself; I avoid speeding like the plague, I do pretrips, and I'm not about to do anything as stupid as drive drunk or stoned. But when I find I'm working for a troll of an employer that WON'T MAINTAIN HIS EQUIPMENT, I get worried.

I'm as concerned as you are. The next step is to push this onto all drivers, not just truck drivers.

Puppycow · 15th October 2009, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED!

Do you not have spare tires?

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Do you not have spare tires?

No. I don't. And asking for one just gets me funny looks.

quixotecoyote · 15th October 2009, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Do you not have spare tires?

You realize it takes a trip to the shop to change a tire on a truck. The driver can't do it himself.

eta: AFAIK, of course.

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

You realize it takes a trip to the shop to change a tire on a truck. The driver can't do it himself.

eta: AFAIK, of course.

Dead on, Amigo. We can't. And the equipment necessary to change them is heavy, which takes away from the loads we can carry.

Leif Roar · 15th October 2009, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED!

IANAL, nor do I play one on the Internet, but hasn't the general legal principle always been that the driver of a vehicle is responsible for its condition and "road worthiness" regardless of who owns, operates or maintains it?

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

IANAL, nor do I play one on the Internet, but hasn't the general legal principle always been that the driver of a vehicle is responsible for its condition and "road worthiness" regardless of who owns, operates or maintains it?

Up to a point. What do you do when you're told "Drive it or lose your job"?

In at least one instance, I walked. It's made it hard as hell to find a better job.

Leif Roar · 15th October 2009, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Up to a point. What do you do when you're told "Drive it or lose your job"?

I understand that it can be very hard to just say no (we need the damned money from working), but that doesn't absolve us from any legal responsibility for our actions in any other situation, so why should it here?

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

I understand that it can be very hard to just say no (we need the damned money from working), but that doesn't absolve us from any legal responsibility for our actions in any other situation, so why should it here?

At what point do my responsibilities stop? In the one instance, I quit. I mentioned this earlier on the board, this particular situation, and had one hell of a fight getting my name cleared because, dammit, I reported the situation, but I was held accountable for the company's decision to say, "Screw you, Toad."

What options were left for me? Show me what I could have done differently. I reported problems, I was told to either pay for it myself, or deal with it. In one instance, I did pay for it myself, and wound up tossing the boss the keys because my fix, (on HIS orders), damaged the truck further, and he refused to actually fix the damned thing.

I'll probably skate by with the bad tire that's on the trailer now, but if I get pulled into the scale house, I'll get a ding for a bad tire, even though I've reported it, and been told to drive it anyway. If I say, "Fix it or I leave it," they'll tell me to clean it out. The tire won't be fixed, the DAC report will get one ugly response from my current employer, and I'll be unemployable for another reason altogether. Where are my allies in this?

XBoxWarrior · 15th October 2009, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days.

Shut off that CB ("citizens band"=obviously communist) and tune in to El Rushbo.....

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

Shut off that CB (citizens band, obviously communist) and tune in to El Rushbo.....

You a funny guy, eh?

XBoxWarrior · 15th October 2009, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

You a funny guy, eh?

Yeah, after 9-11-01, I couldn't get my Haz-Mat renewed...I was arrested a few times, and I now am a "terrorist"...

Funny that.

Leif Roar · 15th October 2009, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

At what point do my responsibilities stop?

Again, INAL, but as I understand it, legal responsibility ends at what you couldn't reasonably have been expected to know. In other words, you're responsible for anything you should reasonably have known. For a truck, I'd guess that that would cover anything that is reasonably easy to notice during a visual inspection or from browsing through the cargo manifest, maintenance log or similar paperwork that's available to the driver.

Quote:

What options were left for me? Show me what I could have done differently. I reported problems, I was told to either pay for it myself, or deal with it. In one instance, I did pay for it myself, and wound up tossing the boss the keys because my fix, (on HIS orders), damaged the truck further, and he refused to actually fix the damned thing.

As a truck driver you certainly find yourself in between a rock and a hard place, and that is a good reason to argue that the harshness of the punishment should be adjusted so that it hits the owners / operators harder and the drivers less hard. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the legal principle that is the problem here.

I think it would makes more sense argue the particulars -- the harshness of the punishment, the driver's lack of power compared to the operators -- rather than to argue the principles, as I don't think you can make a very good case for the latter.

Quote:

Where are my allies in this?

While I know they are unpopular in the USA, the most obvious ally in cases like this would be a union, next would be a professional organisation.

Roadtoad · 15th October 2009, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

Yeah, after 9-11-01, I couldn't get my Haz-Mat renewed...I was arrested a few times, and I now am a "terrorist"...

Funny that.

Please, tell me this is a joke. This has got to be a joke. Right?

Starthinker · 16th October 2009, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

This might not seem like a big deal right now, but let me clue you in on this.

In 2010, points will be assessed against truck drivers based on their records. While this has been going on for a while, what makes it even worse is that now, when you get pulled into the scales, if you get a fix-it ticket, you will be assessed points for that ticket. If these reach a certain point, you will forfeit your driver's license, and you will be unemployable.

Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED!

Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days.

Wait a minute. I find this hard to believe. Truckers still use CBs?

My dad was a life long trucker, litterally, started at 16 and died at 72 with a full reefer sitting in the yard. If anyone has a use for a pile of CBs just let me know.

Travis · 16th October 2009, 08:16 AM

Heck, I know guys that still mess around with HAM radios and others who still swear by 8-tracks so it wouldn't surprise me if there are people who will keep CB's alive as a hobby for years to come.

BobTheDonkey · 16th October 2009, 08:58 AM

I used to run a CB in my P/U. Actually met a few cool truckers over the years on my road trips.

I've debated installing one in my car for when I'm out on a drive with other owners, but most of them use FRS/GPRS freqs, so the CB wouldn't work (and most quality CBs are too large to mount in my car

)

WildCat · 16th October 2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Wait a minute. I find this hard to believe. Truckers still use CBs?

My dad was a life long trucker, litterally, started at 16 and died at 72 with a full reefer sitting in the yard. If anyone has a use for a pile of CBs just let me know.

Screw the CBs, what was in the reefer? Lobster tails? Steaks?

WildCat · 16th October 2009, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

Again, INAL, but as I understand it, legal responsibility ends at what you couldn't reasonably have been expected to know. In other words, you're responsible for anything you should reasonably have known. For a truck, I'd guess that that would cover anything that is reasonably easy to notice during a visual inspection or from browsing through the cargo manifest, maintenance log or similar paperwork that's available to the driver.

As a truck driver you certainly find yourself in between a rock and a hard place, and that is a good reason to argue that the harshness of the punishment should be adjusted so that it hits the owners / operators harder and the drivers less hard. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the legal principle that is the problem here.

I think it would makes more sense argue the particulars -- the harshness of the punishment, the driver's lack of power compared to the operators -- rather than to argue the principles, as I don't think you can make a very good case for the latter.

While I know they are unpopular in the USA, the most obvious ally in cases like this would be a union, next would be a professional organisation.

I think legally too many of the consequences fall on the driver, and not on the people who are actually responsible for maintaining the trucks. Not that drivers should be let off the hook, but he owners need to face severe penalties themselves. The problem won't be solved by going after only the drivers. As far as the owners are concerned, they're expendable.

Roadtoad · 16th October 2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I think legally too many of the consequences fall on the driver, and not on the people who are actually responsible for maintaining the trucks. Not that drivers should be let off the hook, but he owners need to face severe penalties themselves. The problem won't be solved by going after only the drivers. As far as the owners are concerned, they're expendable.

If I had a dollar for every time my bosses told me drivers were a dime a dozen...

One of the reasons I left a great job in Washington State was because the guy running the curtain van division was continually threatening me with physical violence. One of the reasons for that was because I kept telling him I would not work over legal hours, and I wasn't going to cheat my logbook.

Needless to say, he didn't take it well.

I have never flunked an audit, nor do I want to. My current employer wound up getting hit with a fine of over one million dollars for failing to keep drivers running legal. The drivers were fired, of course, but the company got slapped with a fine for it's complicity in it for dispatching drivers they knew were out of hours.

But, keep in mind, the company was so flagrant in its violations, it was so out of bounds, there was no way in hell it could have been ignored any longer. The drivers took a huge hit, but the company simply capitalized it and paid the fine.

With the new rules, the drivers would still be terminated, but they couldn't get another job anywhere else until the points came off their licenses, but the company could be put out of business.

I'm still learning how this will work. I'll let you know as I learn more.

WildCat · 16th October 2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

With the new rules, the drivers would still be terminated, but they couldn't get another job anywhere else until the points came off their licenses, but the company could be put out of business.

What's to prevent the company owners from simply starting another company? They can even use all of the assets they already have.

IOW, simply putting a company out of business doesn't really punish the owners unless they are prevented from ever having a financial interest in any other trucking companies.

Starthinker · 16th October 2009, 10:06 AM

Note all the fines here went to the driver: http://www.globegazette.com/articles...0062396219.txt

Roadtoad · 16th October 2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Note all the fines here went to the driver: http://www.globegazette.com/articles...0062396219.txt

But in the cited case, the driver, Jeffery Brady, was responsible for everything he was written up for.

I've refused to haul loads for which I didn't have a permit, simply because I couldn't afford the fines, and I wasn't about to take that responsibility on myself. (I had done it before, but was warned by CHP that I could have been nailed for it, even though I had evidence that I had insisted on having proper permits, and that I'd refused earlier to move the load because the weight was illegal.)

No evidence, it seems, was brought forth that showed he'd even attempted to tell his employer that this was a bad run.

HasKey · 16th October 2009, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Heck, I know guys that still mess around with HAM radios...

I don't know about the rest of the nation but here in Genesee County in Michigan there's a community of Ham radio operators that do an invaluable service in reporting threatening weather conditions to the National Weather Service.

Just FYI.

Travis · 16th October 2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by HasKey

I don't know about the rest of the nation but here in Genesee County in Michigan there's a community of Ham radio operators that do an invaluable service in reporting threatening weather conditions to the National Weather Service.

Just FYI.

That's cool. We have fire watch towers rigged with the radios too.

Paulhoff · 16th October 2009, 02:48 PM

CB Radio............... Obama is so-called Black (why not white)............. do I need to know more. Sorry Roadtoad........... I know you're not in that group.

Write to him, what the hell do you have to lose, you're a good writer.

Paul

Shoot me later.

Ryokan · 16th October 2009, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Up to a point. What do you do when you're told "Drive it or lose your job"?

Contact your union?

Magyar · 16th October 2009, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

This might not seem like a big deal right now, but let me clue you in on this.

In 2010, points will be assessed against truck drivers based on their records. While this has been going on for a while, what makes it even worse is that now, when you get pulled into the scales, if you get a fix-it ticket, you will be assessed points for that ticket. If these reach a certain point, you will forfeit your driver's license, and you will be unemployable.

Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED!

Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days.

I see ZERO wrong with this! Take personal responsibility for your behavior!
Ultimately YOU are the one operating the vehicle are you not!? Isn't THAT the ultimate repugnican mantra when it comes to welfare, being poor or not having a good job?. What makes YOU so special that you're excused from this? Or is it ONLY wrong if a Dem says it?

That said if a company asked you to do something illegal then you should be able to report them or refuse to do it as you have. Why is this Obama's fault? Why do you see a difference here between this and if your boss asked you to smuggle drugs for instance? If a cop pulled over a car and found 5 pound of coke in the trunk should the driver be able to say "but officer, that's not mine"? Why should you?

And it's not like this is unique to just your trade. I work voice and data cabling and electrical. If I use shoddy equipment or if I install circuits or wiring that ends up buring the building down or killing people when I should have know better YOU BET YOUR ASS that I am held responsible. It's part of NEC and has been AFAIK since day one. Why should you be excused, and for that matter why should you have an issue with, being held responsible for something that can and does kill people literally every day when you knowingly fail to prevent it????

Roadtoad · 16th October 2009, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Magyar

I see ZERO wrong with this! Take personal responsibility for your behavior!
Ultimately YOU are the one operating the vehicle are you not!? Isn't THAT the ultimate repugnican mantra when it comes to welfare, being poor or not having a good job?. What makes YOU so special that you're excused from this? Or is it ONLY wrong if a Dem says it?

That said if a company asked you to do something illegal then you should be able to report them or refuse to do it as you have. Why is this Obama's fault? Why do you see a difference here between this and if your boss asked you to smuggle drugs for instance? If a cop pulled over a car and found 5 pound of coke in the trunk should the driver be able to say "but officer, that's not mine"? Why should you?

And it's not like this is unique to just your trade. I work voice and data cabling and electrical. If I use shoddy equipment or if I install circuits or wiring that ends up buring the building down or killing people when I should have know better YOU BET YOUR ASS that I am held responsible. It's part of NEC and has been AFAIK since day one. Why should you be excused, and for that matter why should you have an issue with, being held responsible for something that can and does kill people literally every day when you knowingly fail to prevent it????

Did you read anything which followed the OP?

Chaos · 16th October 2009, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Did you read anything which followed the OP?

I call this "Chaos´ law of the internet": "There is no possible topic for discussion on which one participant in said discussion will not take a completely idiotic position for a no less idiotic reason."

Roadtoad · 16th October 2009, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

I call this "Chaos´ law of the internet": "There is no possible topic for discussion on which one participant in said discussion will not take a completely idiotic position for a no less idiotic reason."

That, my friend, is sig material.

Chaos · 16th October 2009, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Contact your union?

The trouble is, it isn´t the unions who employ drivers, its the trucking companies. Judging from what Roadtoad posts from time to time, there aren´t very many trucking companies that don´t regularly present their drivers with the choice "break the law or I´ll fire you" - well except for those who are considerate enough to break the law right away and merely give the driver the choice "cover my lawbreaking or I´ll fire you".

15th October 2009, 09:24 PM	#1
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	New 2010 Rules for Truckers This might not seem like a big deal right now, but let me clue you in on this. In 2010, points will be assessed against truck drivers based on their records. While this has been going on for a while, what makes it even worse is that now, when you get pulled into the scales, if you get a fix-it ticket, you will be assessed points for that ticket. If these reach a certain point, you will forfeit your driver's license, and you will be unemployable. Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED! Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days.

15th October 2009, 09:27 PM	#2
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED! Is the idea to get you to refuse to drive the unsafe trucks?
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

15th October 2009, 09:28 PM	#3
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days. What does this have to do with Barack Obama?
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

15th October 2009, 09:32 PM	#5
BobTheDonkey Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,501	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought states determined their own point rules. As in, NY state doesn't accept out-of-state points and awards points for traffic infractions that other states I've lived in didn't award points for (speeding <10mph over the limit is 0 pts in OK, 3pts in NY).
	__________________ TSIG: Everyone wants to be 'special' but nobody wants to admit they ride the bus.

15th October 2009, 09:35 PM	#7
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Roadtoad On the surface, yes. But the problem is, the drivers are the ones who get the worst of it. Nor is there a drop dead date on any of this; your records count regardless, from three years back. It might be fair if only infractions that come from January 1, 2010 count, but that's not how they're working it. Shades of ex post facto!
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

15th October 2009, 09:31 PM	#4
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Puppycow What does this have to do with Barack Obama? His proposal, his watch. His DOT Secretary.

15th October 2009, 09:33 PM	#6
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote Is the idea to get you to refuse to drive the unsafe trucks? On the surface, yes. But the problem is, the drivers are the ones who get the worst of it. Nor is there a drop dead date on any of this; your records count regardless, from three years back. It might be fair if only infractions that come from January 1, 2010 count, but that's not how they're working it.

15th October 2009, 09:35 PM	#8
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought states determined their own point rules. As in, NY state doesn't accept out-of-state points and awards points for traffic infractions that other states I've lived in didn't award points for (speeding <10mph over the limit is 0 pts in OK, 3pts in NY). I'll need to look into this in more detail. I think we're now going into a phase where the Feds are determining point count. I'm not as worried about myself; I avoid speeding like the plague, I do pretrips, and I'm not about to do anything as stupid as drive drunk or stoned. But when I find I'm working for a troll of an employer that WON'T MAINTAIN HIS EQUIPMENT, I get worried.

15th October 2009, 09:38 PM	#9
BobTheDonkey Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,501	Originally Posted by Roadtoad I'll need to look into this in more detail. I think we're now going into a phase where the Feds are determining point count. I'm not as worried about myself; I avoid speeding like the plague, I do pretrips, and I'm not about to do anything as stupid as drive drunk or stoned. But when I find I'm working for a troll of an employer that WON'T MAINTAIN HIS EQUIPMENT, I get worried. I'm as concerned as you are. The next step is to push this onto all drivers, not just truck drivers.
	__________________ TSIG: Everyone wants to be 'special' but nobody wants to admit they ride the bus.

15th October 2009, 09:46 PM	#10
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED! Do you not have spare tires?
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

15th October 2009, 09:49 PM	#11
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Puppycow Do you not have spare tires? No. I don't. And asking for one just gets me funny looks.

15th October 2009, 09:50 PM	#12
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Puppycow Do you not have spare tires? You realize it takes a trip to the shop to change a tire on a truck. The driver can't do it himself. eta: AFAIK, of course.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

15th October 2009, 09:53 PM	#13
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote You realize it takes a trip to the shop to change a tire on a truck. The driver can't do it himself. eta: AFAIK, of course. Dead on, Amigo. We can't. And the equipment necessary to change them is heavy, which takes away from the loads we can carry.

15th October 2009, 10:27 PM	#14
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED! IANAL, nor do I play one on the Internet, but hasn't the general legal principle always been that the driver of a vehicle is responsible for its condition and "road worthiness" regardless of who owns, operates or maintains it?
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

15th October 2009, 10:28 PM	#15
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Leif Roar IANAL, nor do I play one on the Internet, but hasn't the general legal principle always been that the driver of a vehicle is responsible for its condition and "road worthiness" regardless of who owns, operates or maintains it? Up to a point. What do you do when you're told "Drive it or lose your job"? In at least one instance, I walked. It's made it hard as hell to find a better job.

15th October 2009, 10:54 PM	#16
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Up to a point. What do you do when you're told "Drive it or lose your job"? I understand that it can be very hard to just say no (we need the damned money from working), but that doesn't absolve us from any legal responsibility for our actions in any other situation, so why should it here?
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

15th October 2009, 11:02 PM	#17
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Leif Roar I understand that it can be very hard to just say no (we need the damned money from working), but that doesn't absolve us from any legal responsibility for our actions in any other situation, so why should it here? At what point do my responsibilities stop? In the one instance, I quit. I mentioned this earlier on the board, this particular situation, and had one hell of a fight getting my name cleared because, dammit, I reported the situation, but I was held accountable for the company's decision to say, "Screw you, Toad." What options were left for me? Show me what I could have done differently. I reported problems, I was told to either pay for it myself, or deal with it. In one instance, I did pay for it myself, and wound up tossing the boss the keys because my fix, (on HIS orders), damaged the truck further, and he refused to actually fix the damned thing. I'll probably skate by with the bad tire that's on the trailer now, but if I get pulled into the scale house, I'll get a ding for a bad tire, even though I've reported it, and been told to drive it anyway. If I say, "Fix it or I leave it," they'll tell me to clean it out. The tire won't be fixed, the DAC report will get one ugly response from my current employer, and I'll be unemployable for another reason altogether. Where are my allies in this?

15th October 2009, 11:22 PM	#18
XBoxWarrior Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Down in the Treme... Posts: 1,232	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days. Shut off that CB ("citizens band"=obviously communist) and tune in to El Rushbo.....
	Last edited by XBoxWarrior; 15th October 2009 at 11:25 PM.

15th October 2009, 11:25 PM	#19
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior Shut off that CB (citizens band, obviously communist) and tune in to El Rushbo..... You a funny guy, eh?

15th October 2009, 11:31 PM	#20
XBoxWarrior Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Down in the Treme... Posts: 1,232	Originally Posted by Roadtoad You a funny guy, eh? Yeah, after 9-11-01, I couldn't get my Haz-Mat renewed...I was arrested a few times, and I now am a "terrorist"... Funny that.

15th October 2009, 11:38 PM	#21
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Originally Posted by Roadtoad At what point do my responsibilities stop? Again, INAL, but as I understand it, legal responsibility ends at what you couldn't reasonably have been expected to know. In other words, you're responsible for anything you should reasonably have known. For a truck, I'd guess that that would cover anything that is reasonably easy to notice during a visual inspection or from browsing through the cargo manifest, maintenance log or similar paperwork that's available to the driver. Quote: What options were left for me? Show me what I could have done differently. I reported problems, I was told to either pay for it myself, or deal with it. In one instance, I did pay for it myself, and wound up tossing the boss the keys because my fix, (on HIS orders), damaged the truck further, and he refused to actually fix the damned thing. As a truck driver you certainly find yourself in between a rock and a hard place, and that is a good reason to argue that the harshness of the punishment should be adjusted so that it hits the owners / operators harder and the drivers less hard. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the legal principle that is the problem here. I think it would makes more sense argue the particulars -- the harshness of the punishment, the driver's lack of power compared to the operators -- rather than to argue the principles, as I don't think you can make a very good case for the latter. Quote: Where are my allies in this? While I know they are unpopular in the USA, the most obvious ally in cases like this would be a union, next would be a professional organisation.
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

15th October 2009, 11:55 PM	#22
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior Yeah, after 9-11-01, I couldn't get my Haz-Mat renewed...I was arrested a few times, and I now am a "terrorist"... Funny that. Please, tell me this is a joke. This has got to be a joke. Right?

16th October 2009, 07:04 AM	#23
Starthinker Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 5,014	Originally Posted by Roadtoad This might not seem like a big deal right now, but let me clue you in on this. In 2010, points will be assessed against truck drivers based on their records. While this has been going on for a while, what makes it even worse is that now, when you get pulled into the scales, if you get a fix-it ticket, you will be assessed points for that ticket. If these reach a certain point, you will forfeit your driver's license, and you will be unemployable. Now, keep in mind, this does NOT take into account anything the employer does. In other words, if I get a fix-it for a bad tire, yes, the employer gets nailed, but so do I. If I report it, and the company says drive it anyway, (such as my situation is with the current trailer I'm pulling, as I'm sitting here in Sparks, NV, tonight, at the Petro), if the trailer is cited, I AM STILL NAILED! Thank you, Barack Obama. No wonder I'm hearing such nice things about you on the CB these days. Wait a minute. I find this hard to believe. Truckers still use CBs? My dad was a life long trucker, litterally, started at 16 and died at 72 with a full reefer sitting in the yard. If anyone has a use for a pile of CBs just let me know.
	__________________ \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ He who doubts victory has already lost the battle. Below the navel there is neither religion nor truth.

16th October 2009, 08:16 AM	#24
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,938	Heck, I know guys that still mess around with HAM radios and others who still swear by 8-tracks so it wouldn't surprise me if there are people who will keep CB's alive as a hobby for years to come.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

16th October 2009, 08:58 AM	#25
BobTheDonkey Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,501	I used to run a CB in my P/U. Actually met a few cool truckers over the years on my road trips. I've debated installing one in my car for when I'm out on a drive with other owners, but most of them use FRS/GPRS freqs, so the CB wouldn't work (and most quality CBs are too large to mount in my car )
	__________________ TSIG: Everyone wants to be 'special' but nobody wants to admit they ride the bus.

16th October 2009, 09:22 AM	#26
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by Starthinker Wait a minute. I find this hard to believe. Truckers still use CBs? My dad was a life long trucker, litterally, started at 16 and died at 72 with a full reefer sitting in the yard. If anyone has a use for a pile of CBs just let me know. Screw the CBs, what was in the reefer? Lobster tails? Steaks?

16th October 2009, 09:27 AM	#27
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by Leif Roar Again, INAL, but as I understand it, legal responsibility ends at what you couldn't reasonably have been expected to know. In other words, you're responsible for anything you should reasonably have known. For a truck, I'd guess that that would cover anything that is reasonably easy to notice during a visual inspection or from browsing through the cargo manifest, maintenance log or similar paperwork that's available to the driver. As a truck driver you certainly find yourself in between a rock and a hard place, and that is a good reason to argue that the harshness of the punishment should be adjusted so that it hits the owners / operators harder and the drivers less hard. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the legal principle that is the problem here. I think it would makes more sense argue the particulars -- the harshness of the punishment, the driver's lack of power compared to the operators -- rather than to argue the principles, as I don't think you can make a very good case for the latter. While I know they are unpopular in the USA, the most obvious ally in cases like this would be a union, next would be a professional organisation. I think legally too many of the consequences fall on the driver, and not on the people who are actually responsible for maintaining the trucks. Not that drivers should be let off the hook, but he owners need to face severe penalties themselves. The problem won't be solved by going after only the drivers. As far as the owners are concerned, they're expendable.

16th October 2009, 09:54 AM	#28
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by WildCat I think legally too many of the consequences fall on the driver, and not on the people who are actually responsible for maintaining the trucks. Not that drivers should be let off the hook, but he owners need to face severe penalties themselves. The problem won't be solved by going after only the drivers. As far as the owners are concerned, they're expendable. If I had a dollar for every time my bosses told me drivers were a dime a dozen... One of the reasons I left a great job in Washington State was because the guy running the curtain van division was continually threatening me with physical violence. One of the reasons for that was because I kept telling him I would not work over legal hours, and I wasn't going to cheat my logbook. Needless to say, he didn't take it well. I have never flunked an audit, nor do I want to. My current employer wound up getting hit with a fine of over one million dollars for failing to keep drivers running legal. The drivers were fired, of course, but the company got slapped with a fine for it's complicity in it for dispatching drivers they knew were out of hours. But, keep in mind, the company was so flagrant in its violations, it was so out of bounds, there was no way in hell it could have been ignored any longer. The drivers took a huge hit, but the company simply capitalized it and paid the fine. With the new rules, the drivers would still be terminated, but they couldn't get another job anywhere else until the points came off their licenses, but the company could be put out of business. I'm still learning how this will work. I'll let you know as I learn more.

16th October 2009, 10:02 AM	#29
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by Roadtoad With the new rules, the drivers would still be terminated, but they couldn't get another job anywhere else until the points came off their licenses, but the company could be put out of business. What's to prevent the company owners from simply starting another company? They can even use all of the assets they already have. IOW, simply putting a company out of business doesn't really punish the owners unless they are prevented from ever having a financial interest in any other trucking companies.

16th October 2009, 10:06 AM	#30
Starthinker Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 5,014	Note all the fines here went to the driver: http://www.globegazette.com/articles...0062396219.txt
	__________________ \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ He who doubts victory has already lost the battle. Below the navel there is neither religion nor truth.

16th October 2009, 10:21 AM	#31
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Starthinker Note all the fines here went to the driver: http://www.globegazette.com/articles...0062396219.txt But in the cited case, the driver, Jeffery Brady, was responsible for everything he was written up for. I've refused to haul loads for which I didn't have a permit, simply because I couldn't afford the fines, and I wasn't about to take that responsibility on myself. (I had done it before, but was warned by CHP that I could have been nailed for it, even though I had evidence that I had insisted on having proper permits, and that I'd refused earlier to move the load because the weight was illegal.) No evidence, it seems, was brought forth that showed he'd even attempted to tell his employer that this was a bad run.

16th October 2009, 11:07 AM	#32
HasKey Student Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 46	Originally Posted by Travis Heck, I know guys that still mess around with HAM radios... I don't know about the rest of the nation but here in Genesee County in Michigan there's a community of Ham radio operators that do an invaluable service in reporting threatening weather conditions to the National Weather Service. Just FYI.
HasKey Student Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 46

16th October 2009, 12:35 PM	#33
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,938	Originally Posted by HasKey I don't know about the rest of the nation but here in Genesee County in Michigan there's a community of Ham radio operators that do an invaluable service in reporting threatening weather conditions to the National Weather Service. Just FYI. That's cool. We have fire watch towers rigged with the radios too.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

16th October 2009, 02:48 PM	#34
Paulhoff You can't expect perfection. Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 12,570	CB Radio............... Obama is so-called Black (why not white)............. do I need to know more. Sorry Roadtoad........... I know you're not in that group. Write to him, what the hell do you have to lose, you're a good writer. Paul Shoot me later.
	__________________ For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing

16th October 2009, 03:14 PM	#35
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,171	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Up to a point. What do you do when you're told "Drive it or lose your job"? Contact your union?