Did Hitler REALLY make the trains run on time?

[Undesired Walrus]

It's often I've been in a pub and a contrarian has said 'Well, that Hitler, he was a evil man and all, but he did do a lot of good for Germany after he got in'.

What I want to know, is whether the Germany often shown in archive images (Brand new motorways, happy, employed workers, nourished children) is actually representative of the state of Germany in reality. Is this Germany a great myth?

[pakeha]

A lot people seem to think so, in my experience.
Even here in Spain, I have friends who say with hand on heart, that life was fantastic, simply fantastic with Franco.
It would be interesting to see where the truth lies.

[Comsat Angel]

Ask them how much of Hitler's success was based on the policies of the Weimar Republic. They are the dudes who contracted with the Soviet Union to carry out wargames et al.

Also, the German railroad organisation in Normandy 1944 sucked to high heaven.

[parky76]

i hear the trains to Auschwitz moved very smoothly and efficiently. very few complaints from the passengers.

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Also, the German railroad organisation in Normandy 1944 sucked to high heaven.

Particularly after June 6th of that year ...

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

It's often I've been in a pub and a contrarian has said 'Well, that Hitler, he was a evil man and all, but he did do a lot of good for Germany after he got in'.

What I want to know, is whether the Germany often shown in archive images (Brand new motorways, happy, employed workers, nourished children) is actually representative of the state of Germany in reality. Is this Germany a great myth?

they are confusing Hitler with Mussolini, its not a problem, its easy to get mixed up with those wartime fascist dictators
so heres snopes with the answer
http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by Marduk

they are confusing Hitler with Mussolini, its not a problem, its easy to get mixed up with those wartime fascist dictators
so heres snopes with the answer

This is all leading up to another jan-ken-pon post, isn't it?

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

This is all leading up to another jan-ken-pon post, isn't it?

yup
Mussolini demonstrating his losing strategy
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Page...-horseback.jpg
and the source for that strategy
http://www.masconomet.org/teachers/p...d%20Hitler.jpg
and the consequences of choosing paper over scissors
http://cecaust.com.au/images/mussolini-hanging.jpg
even when he really needed them the scissors somehow eluded him

[Doubt]

More to the point.

Italy has a reputation for not doing things on time. Germany does. The idea about Mussolini was that he supposedly got the trains to run on time by making those responsible live in fear. So the point of saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time is to point out that the ends may not justify the means.

In Germany, the trains run on time with few exceptions for weather. No reign of fear required. Its a cultural thing. Hitler had no positive impact there. Starting a war probably worked against them running on time since allied fighters tended to shoot up engines and rolling stock when returning home from escorting bombers.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Doubt

More to the point.

Italy has a reputation for not doing things on time. Germany does. The idea about Mussolini was that he supposedly got the trains to run on time by making those responsible live in fear. So the point of saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time is to point out that the ends may not justify the means.

Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time, it was fascist propoganda, that was the only point to it. It was a claim that he made personally, I doubt he was trying to extoll that he operated by making his followers scared of him, they were his trains,

[McHrozni]

Originally Posted by pakeha

A lot people seem to think so, in my experience.
Even here in Spain, I have friends who say with hand on heart, that life was fantastic, simply fantastic with Franco.
It would be interesting to see where the truth lies.

I heard the same from people who lived under the Soviet Union.

I think it is because in both cases they kept hearing something like: "there is no problem, keep living your lives and do not worry, we'll handle it", as opposed to being made to worry about everything, everywhere in an open society. That, and the fact people tend to forget the worst as the time goes by works to this effect.

McHrozni

[Filippo Lippi]

Cultural memory only goes back about 20 years; everything before that is a golden pre-dawn where you could leave your houses unlocked, etc, etc.

[pakeha]

Ahh.
So it's a 'collective memory' default mode, then.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

It's often I've been in a pub and a contrarian has said 'Well, that Hitler, he was a evil man and all, but he did do a lot of good for Germany after he got in'.

What I want to know, is whether the Germany often shown in archive images (Brand new motorways, happy, employed workers, nourished children) is actually representative of the state of Germany in reality. Is this Germany a great myth?

If you'd have asked the German people in 1937 whether they were happy with the government, they would have said in majority "yes". The explanation for that is simple, to quote Clinton: "it's the economy, stupid".

When Hitler came to power in 1933, the German economy had recently hit rock-bottom with, e.g., 6 million unemployed. Germany was hit extra hard by the crisis as it was heavily dependent on US loans. The economy was already slowly recovering in 1933, and arguably Hitler's government helped that recovery.

For one, this is due to the policies of Hjalmar Schacht, the minister of Economy and president of the German national bank, who had already drawn up a German version of the "New Deal" before 1933. For another, this is due to the re-armament efforts and expansion of the army. The latter also meant that in fact, Germany was already on its way to war.

As to tangible, lasting things, there are precious few. The Autobahn idea predates Hitler - the first one, between Cologne and Bonn, was opened in 1932 by Cologne mayor Adenauer. The first drafts for the Beatle also predate Hitler, and as a "people's car" it never materialized. Hitler did introduce child benefits. Guess why.

[MaGZ]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

It's often I've been in a pub and a contrarian has said 'Well, that Hitler, he was a evil man and all, but he did do a lot of good for Germany after he got in'.

What I want to know, is whether the Germany often shown in archive images (Brand new motorways, happy, employed workers, nourished children) is actually representative of the state of Germany in reality. Is this Germany a great myth?

Go to the library and find the issues of National Geographic Magazine that have articles on Germany in the 1930s. This is an unbiased source.

[MaGZ]

Originally Posted by McHrozni

I heard the same from people who lived under the Soviet Union.

I think it is because in both cases they kept hearing something like: "there is no problem, keep living your lives and do not worry, we'll handle it", as opposed to being made to worry about everything, everywhere in an open society. That, and the fact people tend to forget the worst as the time goes by works to this effect.

McHrozni

Under Stalin people were rounded up by the Jewish secret police just to fill quotas.

[John Jones]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

It's often I've been in a pub and a contrarian has said 'Well, that Hitler, he was a evil man and all, but he did do a lot of good for Germany after he got in'.
...

The parable in the USA is "Mussolini made the trains run on time."

I'm not sure that makes a difference, except in the possible degree of Fascism.

[MaGZ]

Originally Posted by ddt

If you'd have asked the German people in 1937 whether they were happy with the government, they would have said in majority "yes". The explanation for that is simple, to quote Clinton: "it's the economy, stupid".

When Hitler came to power in 1933, the German economy had recently hit rock-bottom with, e.g., 6 million unemployed. Germany was hit extra hard by the crisis as it was heavily dependent on US loans. The economy was already slowly recovering in 1933, and arguably Hitler's government helped that recovery.

For one, this is due to the policies of Hjalmar Schacht, the minister of Economy and president of the German national bank, who had already drawn up a German version of the "New Deal" before 1933. For another, this is due to the re-armament efforts and expansion of the army. The latter also meant that in fact, Germany was already on its way to war.

As to tangible, lasting things, there are precious few. The Autobahn idea predates Hitler - the first one, between Cologne and Bonn, was opened in 1932 by Cologne mayor Adenauer. The first drafts for the Beatle also predate Hitler, and as a "people's car" it never materialized. Hitler did introduce child benefits. Guess why.

So who had the better "New Deal", Hitler or FDR?
I know the answer.

[MaGZ]

Another resource concerning Hitler's Germany.

enjoy

http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Another resource concerning Hitler's Germany.

enjoy

http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite

not a very accurate resource
http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocau..._Dritten_Reich

Originally Posted by Juden

The survey of the Nazi extermination of Jews into a modern Civil religion - The so-called Holocaust is - an invention of Jewish circles in the U.S

seems to be slightly biased
Read the page on Hitler too, it claims he escaped to Spain
http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Hitler#...nen_um_den_Tod

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Marduk

Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time, it was fascist propoganda, that was the only point to it. It was a claim that he made personally, I doubt he was trying to extoll that he operated by making his followers scared of him, they were his trains,

Italian fascism was an interesting beast, and it doesn't always make sense to those of us from other cultures.

E.g., you probably wouldn't come to the idea of making someone toast with castor oil, just to see if they can make it home before crapping their pants, as a punishment or instrument of terror. But the Italian fascists did just that.

E.g., if you had such an instrument of terror, you would think one wouldn't brag about it. But that would be wrong again. Italian fascists even made pubs display a bottle of castor oil in the window, to remind patrons of what happens if they get too drunk and cause a disturbance or otherwise do something dumb.

So exactly what Il Duce meant about the trains, I guess it'll remain a mystery

[catsmate1]

Actually Hitler didn't make the trains run on time: Herman Hollerith did.......
The German railway network (the Reichsbahn) made extensive use of Hollerith's punch-card tabulators, leading to substantial improvements in efficiency.

[Simon39759]

I always thought the expression was a reference to the labour organizations. They often, in my experience, are very powerful in public railways which means that railways are a battleground for political activism.
So, I assumed, the politically tumultuous 1920ies, railways were marked by strikes and disturbances. These would have ceased following the crack-down on labour organizations conducted by the facist regime.

Well; that was my knee-jerk reading... Take that with a few truckloads of salt.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Italian fascism was an interesting beast, and it doesn't always make sense to those of us from other cultures.

E.g., you probably wouldn't come to the idea of making someone toast with castor oil, just to see if they can make it home before crapping their pants, as a punishment or instrument of terror. But the Italian fascists did just that.

E.g., if you had such an instrument of terror, you would think one wouldn't brag about it. But that would be wrong again. Italian fascists even made pubs display a bottle of castor oil in the window, to remind patrons of what happens if they get too drunk and cause a disturbance or otherwise do something dumb.

So exactly what Il Duce meant about the trains, I guess it'll remain a mystery

You bet your buppi that that didn't make sense. What behavior was the drinking the castor oil a punishment for?

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

You bet your buppi that that didn't make sense. What behavior was the drinking the castor oil a punishment for?

Apparently from causing a drunken ruckus to speaking against Il Duce, which (the latter) would have probably earned you a far nastier visit from the Gestapo in Germany.

[malbui]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Apparently from causing a drunken ruckus to speaking against Il Duce, which (the latter) would have probably earned you a far nastier visit from the Gestapo in Germany.

There are a fair few references to the castor oil punishment in Giovanni Guareschi's masterly Don Camillo stories, set in chaotic post-WW2 Italy but containing lots of flashbacks to pre-war events. When I first read those stories as a kid, I really didn't understand the purpose of the glass of castor oil .

[Shrike]

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Under Stalin people were rounded up by the Jewish secret police just to fill quotas.

[Pure_Argent]

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Under Stalin people were rounded up by the Jewish secret police just to fill quotas.

...LTFW?

Evidence?

Originally Posted by MaGZ

So who had the better "New Deal", Hitler or FDR?
I know the answer.

FDR, right?