What's wrong with this picture?

Mark A. Siefert · 20th October 2009, 01:41 PM

I stopped by American Science and Surplus this afternoon to see if I can find a set of cheap network cable crimpers when I noticed this new bit of signage:

Ugh! I know it's near Halloween and all, but does a store that sells science books, telescopes (I got my Dob from here.), lab equipment, and other educational toys do anyone a service by pandering to pseudoscientific stupidity?

I guess they've just lost a customer.

Marduk · 20th October 2009, 01:45 PM

how much are their proton packs and ghost traps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_pack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbu...e)#Containment
and what prices do they quote for long term spook storage ?

I have a level 4 haunting to deal with this weekend

dropzone · 20th October 2009, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I guess they've just lost a customer.

For THAT? AS&S is all about sarcasm and irony--just read their catalogs. And if they can make some extra money off the rubes this season, well, God bless 'em.

http://www.sciplus.com/

Mark A. Siefert · 20th October 2009, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

how much are their proton packs and ghost traps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_pack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters_(franchise)#Containment
and what prices do they quote for long term spook storage ?

I have a level 4 haunting to deal with this weekend

Heh, I own the original West End Games Ghostbusters RPG and have many a fond memory of playing it as a goofy teenager.

The trouble is since becoming a skeptic I really can't look at that game or even the movie the same way anymore. Fantasy gaming I can enjoy because "magic" is more or less an assumption of the setting like FTL drives are an assumption of most sci-fi settings. Cthulhu Mythos-based games redeem themselves via the nihilistic horror they convey. However, most "modern" magic or supernatural games seem to imply that magic is real in this day and age, that special "individuals" are the ones who can tap into it, and the mean-old skeptics with the rationality and science are full of it.

Marky don't play that.

WALTER PECK LIVES!!!

coalesce · 20th October 2009, 01:55 PM

The only thing wrong with this picture is that the prices are too low. Money is money, and if a bunch of sucke...er, enthusiasts, want to spend their money on this, then why not? I'd be happy to relieve them of their cash.

Michael

ETA: dropzone beat me to it.

Marduk · 20th October 2009, 01:57 PM

this is an e mail I received 4 years ago

Quote:

Hey Marduk,

Bet you have been asked this before... Just been watching Ghostbusters, and picked up on something that hadn't registered before. Gozer the Gozarian (and the minions Zuul and Vinscortho) is referred to as a Sumerian/Babylonian god... is this fact, or spurious Hollywood clap-trap?

Cheers,
*********

my reply

Quote:

hi

Gozer is hebrew
it means "he who performs circumcisions"
seriously
in the original script they had Tiamat as the name but had to drop it for fear of breaching Dungeons and dragons copyright where Tiamat is a central character
Zuul who in the film is described as the gatekeeper of Gozer is also made up by hollywood
the only gatekeeper who appears in Sumerian mythology is "Neti" who is the gatekeeper of the underworld who appears in "the descent of inanna"
as for vince clortho the keymaster
well locks hadn't been invented then
so could you work out the spuriability on that one yourself

M

made me lol at the time and this thread seems appropriate for a share

recently
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...73&postcount=7

Mark A. Siefert · 20th October 2009, 02:07 PM

Wait a minute? It's all right for people to be sold a load of crap just because the seller will turn a profit?

I guess it's OK for Peter Popoff, Sylvia Browne, and Benny Hinn to fleece the masses. After all, they're making money hand over fist! More power to them!

HeyLeroy · 20th October 2009, 02:10 PM

Have you talked to anyone at the store about it?

Beanbag · 20th October 2009, 05:10 PM

Anyone who knows AS&S knows they sell stuff with a dry, "this is what the manufacturer advertised" approach. They sell surplus and discontinued stuff, mostly.

EMF meters and IR thermometers seem to be defacto items for people looking for ghosts. Makes sense to sell them to people with the money to buy them. I'm sure people wanting to measure temperatures of remote surfaces, and EM fields for non-ghost-hunting applications will buy them as well.

I can't believe you have ever seen Jarvis and can act like this is a really serious matter.

Beanbag

roger · 20th October 2009, 05:38 PM

It gets worse. If you look on their home page, they are selling supplies to kill robotic vampires!!!

Quote:

Stake Frites

Direct from the French army, these giant steel tent stakes are scary big. They're T-bars approx 2 feet long x 1-5/8", tapered at one end. A pair of 7/8" dia rods extends 2-3/4" from each side near the top. Large enough for circus tents, or driving through the heart of a really large robotic vampire.

Dr H · 20th October 2009, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I stopped by American Science and Surplus this afternoon to see if I can find a set of cheap network cable crimpers when I noticed this new bit of signage:

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._6085252_n.jpg

Ugh! I know it's near Halloween and all, but does a store that sells science books, telescopes (I got my Dob from here.), lab equipment, and other educational toys do anyone a service by pandering to pseudoscientific stupidity?

I guess they've just lost a customer.

Hey, business is business, and when you've got a ready-made group of gullible potential customers...

Akhenaten · 20th October 2009, 05:57 PM

What's wrong with this picture?

I thought the idea of an IR thermometer was novel. What does a non-IR thermometer measure?

JoeTheJuggler · 20th October 2009, 07:00 PM

Edmund Scientifics is almost as bad these days.

JoeTheJuggler · 20th October 2009, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

What does a non-IR thermometer measure?

Just the length of a column of mercury (or whatever that red stuff is).

SumDood · 21st October 2009, 07:26 AM

Not any different from the Fetus Sex Detector Kit or the Toxin Cleansing Foot Pads they sell almost everywhere around my neck of the woods, is it?

Mark A. Siefert · 21st October 2009, 11:45 AM

I can't believe this!

You people have the gall to call yourselves "skeptics?"

Southwind17 · 21st October 2009, 12:01 PM

What's wrong with the picture?

Well, unless it's my monitor, I'd say it's under-exposed by a full stop, at least, and the composition could be a whole lot better. Focus isn't bad though.

Need more?!

Careyp74 · 21st October 2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I can't believe this!

You people have the gall to call yourselves "skeptics?"

Why, is the pic fake? Did you photoshop the ghostbuster kit on there as a hoax, and everyone that replied bought into it?

What does skepticism have to do with whether or not it is ok to label an IR thermometer and EMF meter as a ghost buster kit? Those are the items that they have on the show, and if the public wants to buy them for that purpose, why not? BTW, You do know that those items do have other uses, right?

Mark A. Siefert · 21st October 2009, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

What does skepticism have to do with whether or not it is ok to label an IR thermometer and EMF meter as a ghost buster kit?

THERE ARE NO SUCH FRACKING THINGS AS GHOSTS!!!

AS&S is attempting to profit off people's credulity and spreading the belief in the supernatural among the public the same way that Geller, Browne, Edwards, and other con-artists have done.

DUH!

LarianLeQuella · 21st October 2009, 12:40 PM

Did you bring this up to the store owner, or just passively register your displeasure by telling yourself that you won't go there anymore?

I know that there was a "science" store near where I live, and when I went in there, much to my dismay, it was a full on woo woo store (crystals, auras, etc.). I immedieately asked to speak to the owner and explained to him that this was not in any way "science" and it could even be false advertising. I noted with pleasure that his sotre is now a "paranormal" store. Small victory.

Mark A. Siefert · 21st October 2009, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by LarianLeQuella

Did you bring this up to the store owner, or just passively register your displeasure by telling yourself that you won't go there anymore?

What good will that do? They don't care about the pittance I add to their coffers enough to retract the sign.

Southwind17 · 21st October 2009, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by LarianLeQuella

I know that there was a "science" store near where I live, and when I went in there, much to my dismay, it was a full on woo woo store (crystals, auras, etc.). I immedieately asked to speak to the owner and explained to him that this was not in any way "science" and it could even be false advertising. I noted with pleasure that his sotre is now a "paranormal" store. Small victory.

You reckon? I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his turnover's sky rocketed!

Beanbag · 21st October 2009, 04:00 PM

I don't see what your flap is about. Yeah, I agree that ghosts don't exist. However, there are people who want to hunt them (or at least look for them). AS&S isn't making claims about ghosts existing -- they're selling the gear that other people who look for evidence of paranormal have suggested might be useful.

Jeez. Lighten up. It's a Halloween thing. Why not gripe about all the woo-ghostly-spirity stuff WalMart is selling?

(FWIW, I think you're taking AS&S's sign WAY too seriously; certainly more than I think the people at AS&S do)

Beanbag

BillC · 21st October 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I can't believe this!

You people have the gall to call yourselves "skeptics?"

Expressing disapproval of something is not a defining characteristic of scepticism. The sceptic's position is to ask to see the evidence for a claim, there's no obligation to pronounce it evil.

Mark A. Siefert · 21st October 2009, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Beanbag

AS&S isn't making claims about ghosts existing -- they're selling the gear that other people who look for evidence of paranormal have suggested might be useful.

If they weren't making claims about ghosts, why bring up "Ghost Hunting" at all?

Originally Posted by Beanbag

Jeez. Lighten up. It's a Halloween thing. Why not gripe about all the woo-ghostly-spirity stuff WalMart is selling?

WalMart isn't making claims that ghosts and goblins exist.

Besides, unlike others on this forum, I give a damn about reality, how the religous and the con-men distort it, and how the knuckle-dragging masses swallow it.

Beanbag · 21st October 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

WalMart isn't making claims that ghosts and goblins exist.

As I said, neither is AS&S.

Santa Claus doesn't exist. WalMart seems to do an awful lot of "Holiday Season" marketing with pictures of the jolly old elf.

End of my participation. This is obviously a hot-button issue with you, and I will accept that you probably have good reasons.

Beanbag

Mark A. Siefert · 21st October 2009, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Beanbag

As I said, neither is AS&S.

As I said, if AS&S weren't claiming ghosts exist, then why call it "Ghost Hunting" equipment at all?

Mark A. Siefert · 21st October 2009, 07:53 PM

For what little good it's going to do me, I have e-mailed the following to AS&S:

Quote:

Dear Sir or Madame:

I have been an satisfied AS&S customer for many years now. I have purchased my first Dobsonian telescope from your store, and your friendly staff helped me adjust its collimation. I have shopped AS&S for tools and neodymium magnets for hobby projects as well as any gadgets or novelties that tickled my fancy. However, I fear that you're most recent signage at your Milwaukee store, advertising "Ghost Hunting Equipment," has forced me to reconsider my future patronage.

I find it very disingenuous for an establishment that claims to promote science education giving credence to pseudoscience. Science education in our country has enough to deal with from budgetary cut backs to right-wing religious zealots trying to pass Bronze Age fairy tales off as biology. It doesn't need anymore nonsense further corroding it, especially by those who are supposed to be championing it. America is awash in superstition, credulity and magical thinking, a problem that is dragging our civilization downward into ignorance. This trend isn't helped by the con-artists who sell themselves off as "psychics" or "faith healers," celebrities that try to advocate "alternative medicine" and drive the fearful and uneducated away from actual medical treatments, or a "science" store that tries to sell spiritualist malarkey wrapped in a scientific facade.

While I am well aware that it's near Halloween, I don't think that's much of an excuse. It's one thing to tell ghost stories, it quite another to claim that they are real. I can't tell you how to run your business, but I can decide where to spend my money. I can not in good conscious spend it at a store that condones this sort of irrationality in what is supposed to be a "modern" age.

Cordially,
Mark A. Siefert

roger · 21st October 2009, 08:18 PM

That's a nice letter Mark.

But did you miss my link where they recommend some tent stakes for killing robotic zombies? Their catalogs are full of this kind of stuff. It's tongue in cheek.

I don't know if their sign was meant tongue in cheek or not, but it would be right in line with the rest of their catalog if it was.

David Conrad · 21st October 2009, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by roger

But did you miss my link where they recommend some tent stakes for killing robotic zombies?

I have to say, I see a qualitative difference between the two. The line in the catalog is clearly a joke. A metal tent stake to kill robotic zombies. It's playing on the earlier statement that the stake is particularly large.

But the ghost hunting gear, in a world where the "Syfy" channel has a Ghost Hunters program and the Discovery channel has just started a new Ghost Lab program, plus the other crap out there like the Ghost Whisperer (that at least purports to be fiction), in such a context it looks as if this store is jumping on the bandwagon.

At the least, someone seeing the sign might think the imprimatur of science was being given to ghost hunting, and there's no danger of that with the wacky line in the catalog about robotic zombies.

monoman · 22nd October 2009, 04:09 AM

Mark,

Dowsing, searching for ghosts, ufos, and bigfoot are all, I imagine, exciting pastimes - much like metal detecting - that lead to, at best, an increased knowledge of electronics and possible scepticism, and, at worst, mild disappointment and wasted weekends.

Alternative medicine, faith healers and psychics are an entirely different kettle of fish.

Southwind17 · 22nd October 2009, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by monoman

Alternative medicine, faith healers and psychics are an entirely different kettle of fish.

Slimey bottom feeders, I'd say.

LarianLeQuella · 22nd October 2009, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

You reckon? I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his turnover's sky rocketed!

True... How about I just call it a personal victory based on proper labels of what his store really was about?

At least no one is walking into the "paranormal" store looking for a telescope or something.

Careyp74 · 22nd October 2009, 06:34 AM

Mark, one thing that you should consider while picking your battles is how much of a JA you will come off as. You come in here, with this silly little annoyance of AS&S, and when no one sees it as abysmal you flip out on everyone. Then you continue to not listen to the other side of the conversation, and finally you write a letter, making yourself look like even more of a JA.

It is not a big deal, no one here sees it as a big deal, maybe there is something YOU are not getting that the rest of the thread participants do?

Mark A. Siefert · 22nd October 2009, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Mark, one thing that you should consider while picking your battles is how much of a JA you will come off as.

Better to be a jackass than a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Careyp74

You come in here, with this silly little annoyance of AS&S, and when no one sees it as abysmal you flip out on everyone. Then you continue to not listen to the other side of the conversation, and finally you write a letter, making yourself look like even more of a JA.

It is not a big deal, no one here sees it as a big deal, maybe there is something YOU are not getting that the rest of the thread participants do?

No big deal? NO BIG DEAL?!

I suppose when you can buy homeopathic cures or copies of Natural Cures THEY Don't Want You To Know About at the local Walgreens, that's no big deal. Yet, Randi is allowed to complain about that!

I guess multi-level marketing scams are "no big deal" too. Yet Brian Dunning can lambast them on Skeptoid. (He also attacked ghost hunting on that podcast as well. So did Penn & Teller on Bulls**T. Were they making much ado about nothing?)

Creationism must be "no big deal" either. so Phil Plaitt and P. Z. Meyers should stop talking about the topic on their respective blogs?

What separates my concerns from their concerns? They are the same! If any of the individuals I mentioned about would have posted that picture, they wouldn't be shrugged off. It it because I don't have a podcast, or a TV show, or a skeptical organization to my name? Is it because I don't hob-knob with the skeptical stars at TAM or make massive donations to the JREF?

Who do have to I suck up to? Plaitt? Wagg? Bidlack? You? Whose posterior do I have to kiss to be taken seriously around here?

Careyp74 · 23rd October 2009, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I suppose when you can buy homeopathic cures or copies of Natural Cures THEY Don't Want You To Know About at the local Walgreens, that's no big deal. Yet, Randi is allowed to complain about that!

Strawman.
No one is at risk of dying because of believing that an IR meter will aid in ghost hunting.

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I guess multi-level marketing scams "no big deal" too. Yet Brian Dunning can lambast them on Skeptoid. (He also attacked ghost hunting on that podcast as well. So did Penn & Teller on Bulls**T. Were they making much ado about nothing?)

Strawman.
I saw the show, and yes, I think ghost hunters are BS, but what does that have to do with this store selling IR meters, under the comical title "ghost hunter kit?"

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

Creationism must be "no big deal" either. so Phil Plaitt and P. Z. Meyers should stop talking about the topic on their respective blogs?

Strawman

Many of us believe that it is not a valid science, and should not be forced on the public. Doesn't mean everyone does. Those that don't feel that way can also have their say. Many chose to talk about it. Some disagree. That is what you see in these types of forums. What you see in this thread, is that the general consensus is that you are blowing things way out of proportion. The system works, believe in it.

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

What separates my concerns from their concerns? They are the same! If any of the individuals I mentioned about would have posted that picture, they wouldn't be shrugged off.

That is what you believe. I don't. I have spoken out against things Randi has done before, I also lauded him for things he has done before. Sounds like you are upset that the supposed "sheep" aren't bleating to your tune. Again, lighten up.

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

It it because I don't have a podcast, or a TV show, or a skeptical organization to my name? Is it because I don't hob-knob with the skeptical stars at TAM or make massive donations to the JREF?

Sorry we aren't bowing down to your superiority dude. JC, get a life.

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

Who do have to I suck up to? Plaitt? Wagg? Bidlack? You? Whose posterior do I have to kiss to be taken seriously around here?

How about just make a rational point that people can agree with, instead of just, "look at this it is wrong, you are wrong for not thinking it is wrong, what is wrong with you people."

aggle-rithm · 23rd October 2009, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

Wait a minute? It's all right for people to be sold a load of crap just because the seller will turn a profit?

If the alternative is to go out of business, then, well...

It's good to have principles, but the owners and employees still have to feed their families in a tough economy.

Maybe it's time we reconsider Communism.

aggle-rithm · 23rd October 2009, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

What's wrong with this picture?

I thought the idea of an IR thermometer was novel. What does a non-IR thermometer measure?

Gullibility.

It's the same principle as organic salt.

Bikewer · 23rd October 2009, 07:01 AM

If I wanted to do a bit of ghost-hunting, I'd disregard the electronics and go for the Winchester boy's favorite, a sawed-off 12 gauge loaded with rock salt.

Careyp74 · 23rd October 2009, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

If I wanted to do a bit of ghost-hunting, I'd disregard the electronics and go for the Winchester boy's favorite, a sawed-off 12 gauge loaded with rock salt.

Make sure it is organic rock salt.

how are you going to find the ghosts? Maybe you better head over to AS&S, I hear they have a great ghost hunting kit.

20th October 2009, 01:41 PM	#1
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	What's wrong with this picture? I stopped by American Science and Surplus this afternoon to see if I can find a set of cheap network cable crimpers when I noticed this new bit of signage: Ugh! I know it's near Halloween and all, but does a store that sells science books, telescopes (I got my Dob from here.), lab equipment, and other educational toys do anyone a service by pandering to pseudoscientific stupidity? I guess they've just lost a customer.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

20th October 2009, 01:45 PM	#2
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	how much are their proton packs and ghost traps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_pack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbu...e)#Containment and what prices do they quote for long term spook storage ? I have a level 4 haunting to deal with this weekend
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

20th October 2009, 01:50 PM	#3
dropzone Muse Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 684	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert I guess they've just lost a customer. For THAT? AS&S is all about sarcasm and irony--just read their catalogs. And if they can make some extra money off the rubes this season, well, God bless 'em. http://www.sciplus.com/
dropzone Muse Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 684

20th October 2009, 01:51 PM	#4
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Originally Posted by Marduk how much are their proton packs and ghost traps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_pack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters_(franchise)#Containment and what prices do they quote for long term spook storage ? I have a level 4 haunting to deal with this weekend Heh, I own the original West End Games Ghostbusters RPG and have many a fond memory of playing it as a goofy teenager. The trouble is since becoming a skeptic I really can't look at that game or even the movie the same way anymore. Fantasy gaming I can enjoy because "magic" is more or less an assumption of the setting like FTL drives are an assumption of most sci-fi settings. Cthulhu Mythos-based games redeem themselves via the nihilistic horror they convey. However, most "modern" magic or supernatural games seem to imply that magic is real in this day and age, that special "individuals" are the ones who can tap into it, and the mean-old skeptics with the rationality and science are full of it. Marky don't play that. WALTER PECK LIVES!!!
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold" Last edited by Mark A. Siefert; 20th October 2009 at 01:58 PM.

20th October 2009, 01:55 PM	#5
coalesce Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 1,803	The only thing wrong with this picture is that the prices are too low. Money is money, and if a bunch of sucke...er, enthusiasts, want to spend their money on this, then why not? I'd be happy to relieve them of their cash. Michael ETA: dropzone beat me to it.
	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!"

20th October 2009, 01:57 PM	#6
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	this is an e mail I received 4 years ago Quote: Hey Marduk, Bet you have been asked this before... Just been watching Ghostbusters, and picked up on something that hadn't registered before. Gozer the Gozarian (and the minions Zuul and Vinscortho) is referred to as a Sumerian/Babylonian god... is this fact, or spurious Hollywood clap-trap? Cheers, ********* my reply Quote: hi Gozer is hebrew it means "he who performs circumcisions" seriously in the original script they had Tiamat as the name but had to drop it for fear of breaching Dungeons and dragons copyright where Tiamat is a central character Zuul who in the film is described as the gatekeeper of Gozer is also made up by hollywood the only gatekeeper who appears in Sumerian mythology is "Neti" who is the gatekeeper of the underworld who appears in "the descent of inanna" as for vince clortho the keymaster well locks hadn't been invented then so could you work out the spuriability on that one yourself M made me lol at the time and this thread seems appropriate for a share recently http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...73&postcount=7
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer) Last edited by Marduk; 20th October 2009 at 02:04 PM. Reason: to make me look psychic

20th October 2009, 02:07 PM	#7
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Wait a minute? It's all right for people to be sold a load of crap just because the seller will turn a profit? I guess it's OK for Peter Popoff, Sylvia Browne, and Benny Hinn to fleece the masses. After all, they're making money hand over fist! More power to them!
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

20th October 2009, 02:10 PM	#8
HeyLeroy Vegan Cannibal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Going off the rails on the Crazy Train. Posts: 5,434	Have you talked to anyone at the store about it?
	__________________ Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325 I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal.

20th October 2009, 05:10 PM	#9
Beanbag Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dallas/Fort Worth Posts: 1,753	Anyone who knows AS&S knows they sell stuff with a dry, "this is what the manufacturer advertised" approach. They sell surplus and discontinued stuff, mostly. EMF meters and IR thermometers seem to be defacto items for people looking for ghosts. Makes sense to sell them to people with the money to buy them. I'm sure people wanting to measure temperatures of remote surfaces, and EM fields for non-ghost-hunting applications will buy them as well. I can't believe you have ever seen Jarvis and can act like this is a really serious matter. Beanbag
	__________________ Know god, no peace. No god, know peace. If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.

20th October 2009, 05:38 PM	#10
roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 7,872	It gets worse. If you look on their home page, they are selling supplies to kill robotic vampires!!! Quote: Stake Frites Direct from the French army, these giant steel tent stakes are scary big. They're T-bars approx 2 feet long x 1-5/8", tapered at one end. A pair of 7/8" dia rods extends 2-3/4" from each side near the top. Large enough for circus tents, or driving through the heart of a really large robotic vampire.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

20th October 2009, 05:43 PM	#11
Dr H Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 674	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert I stopped by American Science and Surplus this afternoon to see if I can find a set of cheap network cable crimpers when I noticed this new bit of signage: http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._6085252_n.jpg Ugh! I know it's near Halloween and all, but does a store that sells science books, telescopes (I got my Dob from here.), lab equipment, and other educational toys do anyone a service by pandering to pseudoscientific stupidity? I guess they've just lost a customer. Hey, business is business, and when you've got a ready-made group of gullible potential customers...
	__________________ Dr H "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry." -- John Cage

20th October 2009, 05:57 PM	#12
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford Australia Posts: 6,284	What's wrong with this picture? I thought the idea of an IR thermometer was novel. What does a non-IR thermometer measure?
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

20th October 2009, 07:00 PM	#13
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,991	Edmund Scientifics is almost as bad these days.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

20th October 2009, 07:01 PM	#14
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,991	Originally Posted by Akhenaten What does a non-IR thermometer measure? Just the length of a column of mercury (or whatever that red stuff is).
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

21st October 2009, 07:26 AM	#15
SumDood Scholar Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 123	Not any different from the Fetus Sex Detector Kit or the Toxin Cleansing Foot Pads they sell almost everywhere around my neck of the woods, is it?

21st October 2009, 11:45 AM	#16
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	I can't believe this! You people have the gall to call yourselves "skeptics?"
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

21st October 2009, 12:01 PM	#17
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	What's wrong with the picture? Well, unless it's my monitor, I'd say it's under-exposed by a full stop, at least, and the composition could be a whole lot better. Focus isn't bad though. Need more?!
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

21st October 2009, 12:13 PM	#18
Careyp74 Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 1,656	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert I can't believe this! You people have the gall to call yourselves "skeptics?" Why, is the pic fake? Did you photoshop the ghostbuster kit on there as a hoax, and everyone that replied bought into it? What does skepticism have to do with whether or not it is ok to label an IR thermometer and EMF meter as a ghost buster kit? Those are the items that they have on the show, and if the public wants to buy them for that purpose, why not? BTW, You do know that those items do have other uses, right?

21st October 2009, 12:25 PM	#19
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Originally Posted by Careyp74 What does skepticism have to do with whether or not it is ok to label an IR thermometer and EMF meter as a ghost buster kit? THERE ARE NO SUCH FRACKING THINGS AS GHOSTS!!! AS&S is attempting to profit off people's credulity and spreading the belief in the supernatural among the public the same way that Geller, Browne, Edwards, and other con-artists have done. DUH!
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

21st October 2009, 12:40 PM	#20
LarianLeQuella Elf Wino Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 597	Did you bring this up to the store owner, or just passively register your displeasure by telling yourself that you won't go there anymore? I know that there was a "science" store near where I live, and when I went in there, much to my dismay, it was a full on woo woo store (crystals, auras, etc.). I immedieately asked to speak to the owner and explained to him that this was not in any way "science" and it could even be false advertising. I noted with pleasure that his sotre is now a "paranormal" store. Small victory.
	__________________ "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." - Frater Ravus "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense." - Chapman Cohen Larian LeQuella Armyn ab Treanid

21st October 2009, 12:52 PM	#21
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Originally Posted by LarianLeQuella Did you bring this up to the store owner, or just passively register your displeasure by telling yourself that you won't go there anymore? What good will that do? They don't care about the pittance I add to their coffers enough to retract the sign.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

21st October 2009, 12:53 PM	#22
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by LarianLeQuella I know that there was a "science" store near where I live, and when I went in there, much to my dismay, it was a full on woo woo store (crystals, auras, etc.). I immedieately asked to speak to the owner and explained to him that this was not in any way "science" and it could even be false advertising. I noted with pleasure that his sotre is now a "paranormal" store. Small victory. You reckon? I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his turnover's sky rocketed!
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

21st October 2009, 04:00 PM	#23
Beanbag Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dallas/Fort Worth Posts: 1,753	I don't see what your flap is about. Yeah, I agree that ghosts don't exist. However, there are people who want to hunt them (or at least look for them). AS&S isn't making claims about ghosts existing -- they're selling the gear that other people who look for evidence of paranormal have suggested might be useful. Jeez. Lighten up. It's a Halloween thing. Why not gripe about all the woo-ghostly-spirity stuff WalMart is selling? (FWIW, I think you're taking AS&S's sign WAY too seriously; certainly more than I think the people at AS&S do) Beanbag
	__________________ Know god, no peace. No god, know peace. If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.

21st October 2009, 04:08 PM	#24
BillC Bazooka Joe Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,794	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert I can't believe this! You people have the gall to call yourselves "skeptics?" Expressing disapproval of something is not a defining characteristic of scepticism. The sceptic's position is to ask to see the evidence for a claim, there's no obligation to pronounce it evil.
BillC Bazooka Joe Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,794	__________________ "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams "If homeopathy works, then obviously the less you use it, the stronger it gets. So the best way to apply homeopathy is to not use it at all." - Phil Plait Do you want to know about Sylvia Browne?

21st October 2009, 04:51 PM	#25
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Originally Posted by Beanbag AS&S isn't making claims about ghosts existing -- they're selling the gear that other people who look for evidence of paranormal have suggested might be useful. If they weren't making claims about ghosts, why bring up "Ghost Hunting" at all? Originally Posted by Beanbag Jeez. Lighten up. It's a Halloween thing. Why not gripe about all the woo-ghostly-spirity stuff WalMart is selling? WalMart isn't making claims that ghosts and goblins exist. Besides, unlike others on this forum, I give a damn about reality, how the religous and the con-men distort it, and how the knuckle-dragging masses swallow it.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

21st October 2009, 06:18 PM	#26
Beanbag Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dallas/Fort Worth Posts: 1,753	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert WalMart isn't making claims that ghosts and goblins exist. As I said, *neither is AS&S*. Santa Claus doesn't exist. WalMart seems to do an awful lot of "Holiday Season" marketing with pictures of the jolly old elf. End of my participation. This is obviously a hot-button issue with you, and I will accept that you probably have good reasons. Beanbag
	__________________ Know god, no peace. No god, know peace. If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.

21st October 2009, 07:02 PM	#27
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Originally Posted by Beanbag As I said, *neither is AS&S. As I said, if AS&S weren't claiming ghosts exist, then why call it "Ghost Hunting" equipment at all?*
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

21st October 2009, 07:53 PM	#28
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	For what little good it's going to do me, I have e-mailed the following to AS&S: Quote: Dear Sir or Madame: I have been an satisfied AS&S customer for many years now. I have purchased my first Dobsonian telescope from your store, and your friendly staff helped me adjust its collimation. I have shopped AS&S for tools and neodymium magnets for hobby projects as well as any gadgets or novelties that tickled my fancy. However, I fear that you're most recent signage at your Milwaukee store, advertising "Ghost Hunting Equipment," has forced me to reconsider my future patronage. I find it very disingenuous for an establishment that claims to promote science education giving credence to pseudoscience. Science education in our country has enough to deal with from budgetary cut backs to right-wing religious zealots trying to pass Bronze Age fairy tales off as biology. It doesn't need anymore nonsense further corroding it, especially by those who are supposed to be championing it. America is awash in superstition, credulity and magical thinking, a problem that is dragging our civilization downward into ignorance. This trend isn't helped by the con-artists who sell themselves off as "psychics" or "faith healers," celebrities that try to advocate "alternative medicine" and drive the fearful and uneducated away from actual medical treatments, or a "science" store that tries to sell spiritualist malarkey wrapped in a scientific facade. While I am well aware that it's near Halloween, I don't think that's much of an excuse. It's one thing to tell ghost stories, it quite another to claim that they are real. I can't tell you how to run your business, but I can decide where to spend my money. I can not in good conscious spend it at a store that condones this sort of irrationality in what is supposed to be a "modern" age. Cordially, Mark A. Siefert
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold" Last edited by Mark A. Siefert; 21st October 2009 at 07:56 PM.

21st October 2009, 08:18 PM	#29
roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 7,872	That's a nice letter Mark. But did you miss my link where they recommend some tent stakes for killing robotic zombies? Their catalogs are full of this kind of stuff. It's tongue in cheek. I don't know if their sign was meant tongue in cheek or not, but it would be right in line with the rest of their catalog if it was.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

21st October 2009, 09:34 PM	#30
David Conrad New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5	Originally Posted by roger But did you miss my link where they recommend some tent stakes for killing robotic zombies? I have to say, I see a qualitative difference between the two. The line in the catalog is clearly a joke. A metal tent stake to kill robotic zombies. It's playing on the earlier statement that the stake is particularly large. But the ghost hunting gear, in a world where the "Syfy" channel has a Ghost Hunters program and the Discovery channel has just started a new Ghost Lab program, plus the other crap out there like the Ghost Whisperer (that at least purports to be fiction), in such a context it looks as if this store is jumping on the bandwagon. At the least, someone seeing the sign might think the imprimatur of science was being given to ghost hunting, and there's no danger of that with the wacky line in the catalog about robotic zombies.
David Conrad New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5

22nd October 2009, 04:09 AM	#31
monoman Master baiter - I fish! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Bulgaria Posts: 665	Mark, Dowsing, searching for ghosts, ufos, and bigfoot are all, I imagine, exciting pastimes - much like metal detecting - that lead to, at best, an increased knowledge of electronics and possible scepticism, and, at worst, mild disappointment and wasted weekends. Alternative medicine, faith healers and psychics are an entirely different kettle of fish.
	__________________ Where memory fails, thought prevails. Stop Sylvia Browne

22nd October 2009, 04:22 AM	#32
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by monoman Alternative medicine, faith healers and psychics are an entirely different kettle of fish. Slimey bottom feeders, I'd say.
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

22nd October 2009, 06:21 AM	#33
LarianLeQuella Elf Wino Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 597	Originally Posted by Southwind17 You reckon? I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his turnover's sky rocketed! True... How about I just call it a personal victory based on proper labels of what his store really was about? At least no one is walking into the "paranormal" store looking for a telescope or something.
	__________________ "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." - Frater Ravus "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense." - Chapman Cohen Larian LeQuella Armyn ab Treanid

22nd October 2009, 06:34 AM	#34
Careyp74 Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 1,656	Mark, one thing that you should consider while picking your battles is how much of a JA you will come off as. You come in here, with this silly little annoyance of AS&S, and when no one sees it as abysmal you flip out on everyone. Then you continue to not listen to the other side of the conversation, and finally you write a letter, making yourself look like even more of a JA. It is not a big deal, no one here sees it as a big deal, maybe there is something YOU are not getting that the rest of the thread participants do?

22nd October 2009, 03:19 PM	#35
Mark A. Siefert Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,169	Originally Posted by Careyp74 Mark, one thing that you should consider while picking your battles is how much of a JA you will come off as. Better to be a jackass than a hypocrite. Originally Posted by Careyp74 You come in here, with this silly little annoyance of AS&S, and when no one sees it as abysmal you flip out on everyone. Then you continue to not listen to the other side of the conversation, and finally you write a letter, making yourself look like even more of a JA. It is not a big deal, no one here sees it as a big deal, maybe there is something YOU are not getting that the rest of the thread participants do? No big deal? NO BIG DEAL?! I suppose when you can buy homeopathic cures or copies of Natural Cures THEY Don't Want You To Know About at the local Walgreens, that's no big deal. Yet, Randi is allowed to complain about that! I guess multi-level marketing scams are "no big deal" too. Yet Brian Dunning can lambast them on Skeptoid. (He also attacked ghost hunting on that podcast as well. So did Penn & Teller on Bulls**T. Were they making much ado about nothing?) Creationism must be "no big deal" either. so Phil Plaitt and P. Z. Meyers should stop talking about the topic on their respective blogs? What separates my concerns from their concerns? They are the same! If any of the individuals I mentioned about would have posted that picture, they wouldn't be shrugged off. It it because I don't have a podcast, or a TV show, or a skeptical organization to my name? Is it because I don't hob-knob with the skeptical stars at TAM or make massive donations to the JREF? Who do have to I suck up to? Plaitt? Wagg? Bidlack? You? Whose posterior do I have to kiss to be taken seriously around here?
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold" Last edited by Mark A. Siefert; 22nd October 2009 at 03:23 PM.