Who are we, what are we and why are we?

jakesteele · 20th October 2009, 02:41 PM

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Third Eye Open · 20th October 2009, 02:57 PM

When I hear questions like this, I like to replace the word 'science' with 'knowledge', because the only relieable way to gain knowledge on anything is through science.

So yes, if anything is going to answer any question, it will be knowledge and the gaining of knowledge.

Mojo · 20th October 2009, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence?

Perhaps there isn't a "why".

Starthinker · 20th October 2009, 03:20 PM

Everything about our existance is random chance. There is no why, no destiny, no fate, no master plan, and no reason for anything from the smallest sub atomic particle to the entire universe.

GrandMasterFox · 20th October 2009, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Perhaps there isn't a "why".

Yep. Going to have to agree here.

joobz · 20th October 2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Chicken salad.

Hokulele · 20th October 2009, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

No, people will still lose their car keys on a regular basis.

Piscivore · 20th October 2009, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)?

Unlikely. The limitations of humans utilising science would seem to preclude that. Still, it explains much much more than any other method, which entirely consist of wishful thinking and/or other fallacies.

Quote:

Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being.

As has been said, there may be no "why". Indeed, the knowledge we do have strongly suggests this is the case.

As to "How", that answer is being studied, refined, updated, and investigated as we speak.

Quote:

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Probably. Does that bother you?

Does it bother you enough that you prefer to pretend to have a full and complete answer instead of accepting the limitations of yourself and your species?

Quote:

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

Maybe. We don't know.

Quote:

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Some might think so. It wouldn't make them right- or necessarily wrong.

Why is omnicience a requirement to be "god-like"? Look at all we can do, and compare it to the old stories. Almost all the old "miracles" attributed to gods in the past we take for granted in our daily lives.

Beerina · 20th October 2009, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Computational theory shoots down a lot of the idea that there are things humans can't know in principle. We are, at least, as powerful as a Turing Machine, which, in theory, is the most powerful computational device possible that's still finite in nature. (This speaks to what its even possible to compute, in principle, and doesn't even bother to address mundane things like how long such calculations might take in practice.)

And part of the argument about quantum randomness is that it's not just ignorance on our part, born out of practical, or even theoretical limits to measurements, but rather it's a fundamental feature of reality itself. That particle round about over thataway doesn't actually exist as a measurable particle at a definite location and direction. But note that, whatever does exist, humans (a few bright ones, anyway) have figured out and "characterized" the nature of reality, so far, thus revealing it.

I also note that many religious concepts, like an infinitely powerful god with the ability and desire to hide from us are things that evolved from far more prosaic, limited, and interactive deity-concepts. So even those ideas don't deserve much credence given how they originated.

Hux · 21st October 2009, 12:14 PM

I wouldn't like to be around in a Universe where there were no more questions. But science will always take us close and open other interesting questions. It will keep on answering the smaller questions until we get the big picture. Its always like that.

HansMustermann · 21st October 2009, 12:23 PM

Actually, the original Turing machine also has infinite memory.

Second, being Turing-complete doesn't say anything about computing _power_, it only says anything about capabilities. As a trivial example, a Turing machine would still be just as Turing-complete if it did one operation per year, or indeed per millenium. It wouldn't be powerful enough for any actual problem that matters, but it would be a Turing machine or Turing-complete nevertheless.

Eddie Dane · 21st October 2009, 12:30 PM

I can't speak for others but I'm a hairless ape with pretty big brain and an iPod.

Southwind17 · 21st October 2009, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Omniscience requires a whole lot more than simply figuring out the "Theory of Everything".

Originally Posted by Mojo

Perhaps there isn't a "why".

In the sense of "why did the train crash?" (subtly different from "how did the train crash?") there clearly is a "why" that, hopefully, will one day be fully explained scientifically. In the sense of "is there a profound reason for our being here?" the answer's a resounding "no".

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Everything about our existance is random chance.

Rubbish. Random chance might possibly have started the whole process, but thereafter it's a different story. Take evolution, for example. Far from random.

Bikewer · 21st October 2009, 12:53 PM

Ray Kurzweil talks about the "omega point" at which humans will literally know "everything".

He claims it isn't that far away.....

Southwind17 · 21st October 2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Ray Kurzweil talks about the "omega point" at which humans will literally know "everything".

He claims it isn't that far away.....

No doubt he'll let us all know when we're there, or will he not need to?!

BNRT · 21st October 2009, 01:06 PM

Would 'knowing everything' include stuff like what Alexander the Great ate three days after his twentieth birthday?

Because such questions might be fundamentally unanswerable.

HansMustermann · 21st October 2009, 03:17 PM

I was more like hoping for answers to such, I think you'll agree, important questions for humanity as, "what would it be like to have a threesome with Helen Of Troy and Cleopatra?" If you're telling me that science can't give me the answer to that, I'll feel like I've wasted my life with it

Pure_Argent · 21st October 2009, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence?

I doubt that it ever be able to explain everything with 100% certainty. We (probably) can't ever know what's outside the universe, and if there is a why, it would (probably) be outside. But, short of finding some fundamental way to be total jerks to physics, finding out the why would be like opening a locked box with the key that's inside. But there really isn't a reason to assume that there needs to be a why. As for the how, well, that's really just re-asking why. Once we know why it started, physics takes over.

Quote:

Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being.

Physics + chemistry = universe.

Quote:

I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

See first response.

Quote:

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

In the universe? Doubtful. Outside? ~~Definitely~~Probably.

Quote:

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Read.

Starthinker · 21st October 2009, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

Omniscience requires a whole lot more than simply figuring out the "Theory of Everything".

In the sense of "why did the train crash?" (subtly different from "how did the train crash?") there clearly is a "why" that, hopefully, will one day be fully explained scientifically. In the sense of "is there a profound reason for our being here?" the answer's a resounding "no".

Rubbish. Random chance might possibly have started the whole process, but thereafter it's a different story. Take evolution, for example. Far from random.

Nope. Even evolution is random.

Last of the Fraggles · 21st October 2009, 04:15 PM

I would think that provided we last long enough eventually we will explain everything that is explainable.

That doesn't necessarily mean we will have answers to all the questions that people ask as some of the questions, like why are we here, might simply have no answer - as others have pointed out, there might not be a why.

Of course, at some point the human race will likely die out so maybe we won't have explained everything by then, but by then it will largely be irrelevant anyway.

Southwind17 · 21st October 2009, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I was more like hoping for answers to such, I think you'll agree, important questions for humanity as, "what would it be like to have a threesome with Helen Of Troy and Cleopatra?" If you're telling me that science can't give me the answer to that, I'll feel like I've wasted my life with it

What makes you think science should answer that question for you? I suggest your best bet is to frequent some fancy dress parties, turn on your charm and find out for yourself. Oh, just make sure Theseus and Julius are chewing much fat on the balcony whilst you're at it!

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Nope. Even evolution is random.

Mutation might well be, but evolution per se most certainly is not.

DevilsAdvocate · 21st October 2009, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Science has taken us pretty far. We have evolution and the big bang. That pretty much covers what we “need” to know. When people start asking about “How, When, Why” they are usually actually looking for the answer to “What” should I do. Religions and stories provide answers to “How, When, Why” that also provide answers to “What should I do”. But religions and stories are not acurate on their ansers to “How, When, Why”. The scientific method provides acurate answers to “How, When, Why”, but the answers don’t answer “What should I do”.

As far as pre-big bang and other unanswered questions, I think there will always be unanswered questions. Much of the universe is beyond the capibillty of light ever reaching us.

I don’t think the answer to the question “What caused there to be something before there was nothing” will every be answered, or more likely, there is no answer to such a question.

Southwind17 · 22nd October 2009, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

I don’t think the answer to the question “What caused there to be something before there was nothing” will every be answered, or more likely, there is no answer to such a question.

I think the first option is much more likely (assuming there was once a "nothing"!). I'm sure there's an answer.

aviolet4u · 22nd October 2009, 12:16 AM

Some spiritualists believe there was a "source" and it wanted to explore itself- so it created the universe and its still creating nonstop. So practically we are living its dream and will keep participating in it being the eternal souls that we are since the beginning of time. Doesn't that sound beautiful?

Now let me put this pipe down for a sec.

Southwind17 · 22nd October 2009, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by aviolet4u

Some spiritualists believe there was a "source" and it wanted to explore itself- so it created the universe and its still creating nonstop. So practically we are living its dream and will keep participating in it being the eternal souls that we are since the beginning of time. Doesn't that sound beautiful?

Sure does, if you're prepared to ignore that we've only been around for 4 million years or so!

UnrepentantSinner · 22nd October 2009, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Nope. Even evolution is random.

Originally Posted by Southwind17

Mutation might well be, but evolution per se most certainly is not.

Yeah. Mutations are random. The selection process, especially the environment is not.

Dancing David · 22nd October 2009, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Hi, this is a case of :

1. There will always be things that we probably can't model accurately at some level of fineness. A model of 10⁷⁰ particles would require something more than 10⁷⁰ particles most likely.

2. It seems that at this time, we can not know anything about what was prior to the BBE. It is likely that even if we do get some understanding that it will be rather uncomplete.

So the answer in general will be no.

Dancing David · 22nd October 2009, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

Omniscience requires a whole lot more than simply figuring out the "Theory of Everything".

In the sense of "why did the train crash?" (subtly different from "how did the train crash?") there clearly is a "why" that, hopefully, will one day be fully explained scientifically. In the sense of "is there a profound reason for our being here?" the answer's a resounding "no".

Rubbish. Random chance might possibly have started the whole process, but thereafter it's a different story. Take evolution, for example. Far from random.

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Nope. Even evolution is random.

Originally Posted by Southwind17

What makes you think science should answer that question for you? I suggest your best bet is to frequent some fancy dress parties, turn on your charm and find out for yourself. Oh, just make sure Theseus and Julius are chewing much fat on the balcony whilst you're at it!

Mutation might well be, but evolution per se most certainly is not.

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Yeah. Mutations are random. The selection process, especially the environment is not.

OH NOES! No, not the random thing again!

Hux · 22nd October 2009, 05:50 AM

Who are we?
A conglomeration of atomic particles that resembles (well most of us do) what we nominate 'human'.
What are we?
Same thing.
Why are we?
Not really a decent question. 'How' are we, will yield better, far more interesting results.

It's my understanding that the random mutation component of evolution occurs at the level of DNA only?

Southwind17 · 22nd October 2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Not really a decent question. 'How' are we, will yield better, far more interesting results.

Slightly disingenuous, I'd say. It's a perfectly valid philosophical question, but good luck with that!

Hux · 22nd October 2009, 06:13 AM

Well for me, why implies a lot more things than how. Im sorry if that's not philosophical enough for you.

How are there humans can be answered by the history of evolution.

Why there are humans, implies (to me) there was a reason. Therefore a reasoner.

Southwind17 · 22nd October 2009, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Well for me, why implies a lot more things than how. Im sorry if that's not philosophical enough for you.

It's plenty philosophical enough for me - which is exactly why I commented the way I did.

Hux · 22nd October 2009, 06:26 AM

Im sure you feel it is. But no likely to yield any answer for it. Far more important and relevant is that a biologist can determine eventually, how life came to be. I'll leave the why to you philosophers.

arthwollipot · 22nd October 2009, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on?

Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend?

Is it a case of:
All this is, will eventually be known.

or:

Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known?

If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?

Not deliberately trying to be glib here, but...

We are the product of evolution. We have no purpose other than to engender progeny, a task which - due to our state of evolved intelligence - is now optional.

IF we figure out a TOE, then we will simply know more about the universe than we do today. It doesn't mean that we will be able to manipulate the universe as we desire - that requires a whole lot more than just understanding.

I think that it is theoretically possible to know how everything in the universe works. That does not necessarily mean that I believe that we will someday know how everything in the universe works. It simply means that I think that every process that occurs in the universe has a rational, natural explanation that we can in principle understand and quantify.

AdinDraco · 22nd October 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Not deliberately trying to be glib here, but...

We are the product of evolution. We have no purpose other than to engender progeny, a task which - due to our state of evolved intelligence - is now optional.

IF we figure out a TOE, then we will simply know more about the universe than we do today. It doesn't mean that we will be able to manipulate the universe as we desire - that requires a whole lot more than just understanding.

I think that it is theoretically possible to know how everything in the universe works. That does not necessarily mean that I believe that we will someday know how everything in the universe works. It simply means that I think that every process that occurs in the universe has a rational, natural explanation that we can in principle understand and quantify.

Well said.

Quote:

Perhaps there isn't a "why"

Agreed, although even is there is I'm comfortable enough with "I don't know" (or "we don't know yet") that I don't need made up answers to fill the gaps. If we make up stuff to fill the gaps, we won't seek what's really in them.

Southwind17 · 22nd October 2009, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by AdinDraco

If we make up stuff to fill the gaps, we won't seek what's really in them.

You mean a little like a Ginsters cornish pastie?!

Almo · 22nd October 2009, 08:58 AM

Who: We are what we make of ourselves.
What: self-perpetuating sentient physical beings
Why: Because we work.

aviolet4u · 22nd October 2009, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Southwind17

Sure does, if you're prepared to ignore that we've only been around for 4 million years or so!

that's where reincarnation and other planets come in

UnrepentantSinner · 22nd October 2009, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

OH NOES! No, not the random thing again!

Hah! Wasn't it mijo and the issue of randomness that generated way too many threads with way too many responses (like thousands)?

Southwind17 · 23rd October 2009, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Hah! Wasn't it mijo and the issue of randomness that generated way too many threads with way too many responses (like thousands)?

I remember that one (if we're thinking the same one). In fact, I'm guilty of starting it - here - 2,771 posts!

20th October 2009, 02:41 PM	#1
jakesteele Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 521	Who are we, what are we and why are we? Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient?
jakesteele Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 521	__________________ Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

20th October 2009, 02:57 PM	#2
Third Eye Open Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 1,028	When I hear questions like this, I like to replace the word 'science' with 'knowledge', because the only relieable way to gain knowledge on anything is through science. So yes, if anything is going to answer any question, it will be knowledge and the gaining of knowledge.
	__________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."- Friedrich von Schiller "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson "As an Atheist, having a christian threaten me with hell is like having a hippy threaten to punch me in my aura." - Josh Thomas

20th October 2009, 03:03 PM	#3
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,927	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Perhaps there isn't a "why".
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "All blasphemies do not become great truths." - George Bernard Shaw

20th October 2009, 03:20 PM	#4
Starthinker Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,834	Everything about our existance is random chance. There is no why, no destiny, no fate, no master plan, and no reason for anything from the smallest sub atomic particle to the entire universe.
	__________________ Naked People Running on Treadmills \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ • Does the blue line only run on Saturday? He who doubts victory has already lost the battle.

20th October 2009, 03:28 PM	#5
GrandMasterFox Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 82	Originally Posted by Mojo Perhaps there isn't a "why". Yep. Going to have to agree here.
GrandMasterFox Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 82

20th October 2009, 03:36 PM	#6
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 11,813	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Chicken salad.
	__________________ "Joobz you can be something else sometimes."- DOC "Hopefully joobz can one day be totally objective and unbiased ..." - DOC

20th October 2009, 03:37 PM	#7
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,347	Originally Posted by jakesteele If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? No, people will still lose their car keys on a regular basis.
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

20th October 2009, 03:39 PM	#8
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Yubaba's Bathhouse Posts: 19,129	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Unlikely. The limitations of humans utilising science would seem to preclude that. Still, it explains much much more than any other method, which entirely consist of wishful thinking and/or other fallacies. Quote: Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. As has been said, there may be no "why". Indeed, the knowledge we do have strongly suggests this is the case. As to "How", that answer is being studied, refined, updated, and investigated as we speak. Quote: Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Probably. Does that bother you? Does it bother you enough that you prefer to pretend to have a full and complete answer instead of accepting the limitations of yourself and your species? Quote: Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? Maybe. We don't know. Quote: If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Some might think so. It wouldn't make them right- or necessarily wrong. Why is omnicience a requirement to be "god-like"? Look at all we can do, and compare it to the old stories. Almost all the old "miracles" attributed to gods in the past we take for granted in our daily lives.
	__________________ A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key- "is it to be or not to be?"- and I replied "oh why ask me?" Does it get tiring to be correct about everything? - Francesca R ...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp. - CFLarsen

20th October 2009, 03:42 PM	#9
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 14,373	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Computational theory shoots down a lot of the idea that there are things humans can't know in principle. We are, at least, as powerful as a Turing Machine, which, in theory, is the most powerful computational device possible that's still finite in nature. (This speaks to what its even possible to compute, in principle, and doesn't even bother to address mundane things like how long such calculations might take in practice.) And part of the argument about quantum randomness is that it's not just ignorance on our part, born out of practical, or even theoretical limits to measurements, but rather it's a fundamental feature of reality itself. That particle round about over thataway doesn't actually exist as a measurable particle at a definite location and direction. But note that, whatever does exist, humans (a few bright ones, anyway) have figured out and "characterized" the nature of reality, so far, thus revealing it. I also note that many religious concepts, like an infinitely powerful god with the ability and desire to hide from us are things that evolved from far more prosaic, limited, and interactive deity-concepts. So even those ideas don't deserve much credence given how they originated.
	__________________ Reid Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman, in *A Day Like Any Other* The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 20th October 2009 at 03:43 PM.

21st October 2009, 12:14 PM	#10
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	I wouldn't like to be around in a Universe where there were no more questions. But science will always take us close and open other interesting questions. It will keep on answering the smaller questions until we get the big picture. Its always like that.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

21st October 2009, 12:23 PM	#11
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Actually, the original Turing machine also has infinite memory. Second, being Turing-complete doesn't say anything about computing _power_, it only says anything about capabilities. As a trivial example, a Turing machine would still be just as Turing-complete if it did one operation per year, or indeed per millenium. It wouldn't be powerful enough for any actual problem that matters, but it would be a Turing machine or Turing-complete nevertheless.

21st October 2009, 12:30 PM	#12
Eddie Dane Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,245	I can't speak for others but I'm a hairless ape with pretty big brain and an iPod.

21st October 2009, 12:49 PM	#13
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by jakesteele If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Omniscience requires a whole lot more than simply figuring out the "Theory of Everything". Originally Posted by Mojo Perhaps there isn't a "why". In the sense of "why did the train crash?" (subtly different from "how did the train crash?") there clearly is a "why" that, hopefully, will one day be fully explained scientifically. In the sense of "is there a profound reason for our being here?" the answer's a resounding "no". Originally Posted by Starthinker Everything about our existance is random chance. Rubbish. Random chance might possibly have started the whole process, but thereafter it's a different story. Take evolution, for example. Far from random.
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

21st October 2009, 12:53 PM	#14
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 5,249	Ray Kurzweil talks about the "omega point" at which humans will literally know "everything". He claims it isn't that far away.....

21st October 2009, 12:56 PM	#15
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by Bikewer Ray Kurzweil talks about the "omega point" at which humans will literally know "everything". He claims it isn't that far away..... No doubt he'll let us all know when we're there, or will he not need to?!
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

21st October 2009, 01:06 PM	#16
BNRT Scholar Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 111	Would 'knowing everything' include stuff like what Alexander the Great ate three days after his twentieth birthday? Because such questions might be fundamentally unanswerable.

21st October 2009, 03:17 PM	#17
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	I was more like hoping for answers to such, I think you'll agree, important questions for humanity as, "what would it be like to have a threesome with Helen Of Troy and Cleopatra?" If you're telling me that science can't give me the answer to that, I'll feel like I've wasted my life with it

21st October 2009, 03:26 PM	#18
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,819	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? I doubt that it ever be able to explain everything with 100% certainty. We (probably) can't ever know what's outside the universe, and if there is a why, it would (probably) be outside. But, short of finding some fundamental way to be total jerks to physics, finding out the why would be like opening a locked box with the key that's inside. But there really isn't a reason to assume that there needs to be a why. As for the how, well, that's really just re-asking why. Once we know why it started, physics takes over. Quote: Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. Physics + chemistry = universe. Quote: I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? See first response. Quote: Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? In the universe? Doubtful. Outside? ~~Definitely~~Probably. Quote: If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Read.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

21st October 2009, 04:02 PM	#19
Starthinker Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,834	Originally Posted by Southwind17 Omniscience requires a whole lot more than simply figuring out the "Theory of Everything". In the sense of "why did the train crash?" (subtly different from "how did the train crash?") there clearly is a "why" that, hopefully, will one day be fully explained scientifically. In the sense of "is there a profound reason for our being here?" the answer's a resounding "no". Rubbish. Random chance might possibly have started the whole process, but thereafter it's a different story. Take evolution, for example. Far from random. Nope. Even evolution is random.
	__________________ Naked People Running on Treadmills \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ • Does the blue line only run on Saturday? He who doubts victory has already lost the battle.

21st October 2009, 04:15 PM	#20
Last of the Fraggles Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 471	I would think that provided we last long enough eventually we will explain everything that is explainable. That doesn't necessarily mean we will have answers to all the questions that people ask as some of the questions, like why are we here, might simply have no answer - as others have pointed out, there might not be a why. Of course, at some point the human race will likely die out so maybe we won't have explained everything by then, but by then it will largely be irrelevant anyway.

21st October 2009, 11:14 PM	#21
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by HansMustermann I was more like hoping for answers to such, I think you'll agree, important questions for humanity as, "what would it be like to have a threesome with Helen Of Troy and Cleopatra?" If you're telling me that science can't give me the answer to that, I'll feel like I've wasted my life with it What makes you think science should answer that question for you? I suggest your best bet is to frequent some fancy dress parties, turn on your charm and find out for yourself. Oh, just make sure Theseus and Julius are chewing much fat on the balcony whilst you're at it! Originally Posted by Starthinker Nope. Even evolution is random. Mutation might well be, but evolution per se most certainly is not.
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

21st October 2009, 11:46 PM	#22
DevilsAdvocate Muse Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Science has taken us pretty far. We have evolution and the big bang. That pretty much covers what we “need” to know. When people start asking about “How, When, Why” they are usually actually looking for the answer to “What” should I do. Religions and stories provide answers to “How, When, Why” that also provide answers to “What should I do”. But religions and stories are not acurate on their ansers to “How, When, Why”. The scientific method provides acurate answers to “How, When, Why”, but the answers don’t answer “What should I do”. As far as pre-big bang and other unanswered questions, I think there will always be unanswered questions. Much of the universe is beyond the capibillty of light ever reaching us. I don’t think the answer to the question “What caused there to be something before there was nothing” will every be answered, or more likely, there is no answer to such a question.
DevilsAdvocate Muse Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 979	__________________ I slept with Faith and found a corpse in my arms on awakening; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning. -Aleister Crowley

22nd October 2009, 12:09 AM	#23
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate I don’t think the answer to the question “What caused there to be something before there was nothing” will every be answered, or more likely, there is no answer to such a question. I think the first option is much more likely (assuming there was once a "nothing"!). I'm sure there's an answer.
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17) Last edited by Southwind17; 22nd October 2009 at 12:10 AM.

22nd October 2009, 12:16 AM	#24
aviolet4u Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 240	Some spiritualists believe there was a "source" and it wanted to explore itself- so it created the universe and its still creating nonstop. So practically we are living its dream and will keep participating in it being the eternal souls that we are since the beginning of time. Doesn't that sound beautiful? Now let me put this pipe down for a sec.
aviolet4u Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 240

22nd October 2009, 01:25 AM	#25
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by aviolet4u Some spiritualists believe there was a "source" and it wanted to explore itself- so it created the universe and its still creating nonstop. So practically we are living its dream and will keep participating in it being the eternal souls that we are since the beginning of time. Doesn't that sound beautiful? Sure does, if you're prepared to ignore that we've only been around for 4 million years or so!
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

22nd October 2009, 02:24 AM	#26
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 23,209	Originally Posted by Starthinker Nope. Even evolution is random. Originally Posted by Southwind17 Mutation might well be, but evolution per se most certainly is not. Yeah. Mutations are random. The selection process, especially the environment is not.
	__________________ "The permanence of the stars was questioned, the justice of slavery was not" - Carl Sagan in Cosmos discussing the content of the Library of Alexandria. a post by Alan Smithee explained. Blutoski's taxonomy of woo Join my The Not Cool Kids Club

22nd October 2009, 05:34 AM	#27
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Hi, this is a case of : 1. There will always be things that we probably can't model accurately at some level of fineness. A model of 10⁷⁰ particles would require something more than 10⁷⁰ particles most likely. 2. It seems that at this time, we can not know anything about what was prior to the BBE. It is likely that even if we do get some understanding that it will be rather uncomplete. So the answer in general will be no.
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

22nd October 2009, 05:39 AM	#28
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	Originally Posted by Southwind17 Omniscience requires a whole lot more than simply figuring out the "Theory of Everything". In the sense of "why did the train crash?" (subtly different from "how did the train crash?") there clearly is a "why" that, hopefully, will one day be fully explained scientifically. In the sense of "is there a profound reason for our being here?" the answer's a resounding "no". Rubbish. Random chance might possibly have started the whole process, but thereafter it's a different story. Take evolution, for example. Far from random. Originally Posted by Starthinker Nope. Even evolution is random. Originally Posted by Southwind17 What makes you think science should answer that question for you? I suggest your best bet is to frequent some fancy dress parties, turn on your charm and find out for yourself. Oh, just make sure Theseus and Julius are chewing much fat on the balcony whilst you're at it! Mutation might well be, but evolution per se most certainly is not. Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner Yeah. Mutations are random. The selection process, especially the environment is not. OH NOES! No, not the random thing again!
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

22nd October 2009, 05:50 AM	#29
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Who are we? A conglomeration of atomic particles that resembles (well most of us do) what we nominate 'human'. What are we? Same thing. Why are we? Not really a decent question. 'How' are we, will yield better, far more interesting results. It's my understanding that the random mutation component of evolution occurs at the level of DNA only?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

22nd October 2009, 06:05 AM	#30
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by Hux Not really a decent question. 'How' are we, will yield better, far more interesting results. Slightly disingenuous, I'd say. It's a perfectly valid philosophical question, but good luck with that!
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

22nd October 2009, 06:13 AM	#31
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Well for me, why implies a lot more things than how. Im sorry if that's not philosophical enough for you. How are there humans can be answered by the history of evolution. Why there are humans, implies (to me) there was a reason. Therefore a reasoner.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

22nd October 2009, 06:22 AM	#32
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 3,260	Originally Posted by Hux Well for me, why implies a lot more things than how. Im sorry if that's not philosophical enough for you. It's plenty philosophical enough for me - which is exactly why I commented the way I did.
	__________________ *How very dare you!* "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." - George Bernard Shaw (seconded by Southwind17)

22nd October 2009, 06:26 AM	#33
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Im sure you feel it is. But no likely to yield any answer for it. Far more important and relevant is that a biologist can determine eventually, how life came to be. I'll leave the why to you philosophers.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

22nd October 2009, 06:40 AM	#34
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	Originally Posted by jakesteele Can science explain everything (soon or later)? Can it explain the why and the how of existence? Why are we and how are we, regarding how existence came into being. I’m not talking the Big Bang, because we don’t know the full, exact nature of it because we haven’t gotten to the precise instant, yet. I’m talking about the how and why of the Big Bang. What happened before the BB, if that term even applies? If the multi-verse question ever gets answered, how and why did the MV come about and so on? Will there always be some questions will, now and always, be beyond the ability for humans to comprehend? Is it a case of: All this is, will eventually be known. or: Are there stranger things in all of existence than can ever be known? If we figure out the Theory of Everything, will we be God-like in that we now would have achieved omniscient? Not deliberately trying to be glib here, but... We are the product of evolution. We have no purpose other than to engender progeny, a task which - due to our state of evolved intelligence - is now optional. IF we figure out a TOE, then we will simply know more about the universe than we do today. It doesn't mean that we will be able to manipulate the universe as we desire - that requires a whole lot more than just understanding. I think that it is theoretically possible to know how everything in the universe works. That does not necessarily mean that I believe that we will someday know how everything in the universe works. It simply means that I think that every process that occurs in the universe has a rational, natural explanation that we can in principle understand and quantify.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

22nd October 2009, 06:46 AM	#35
AdinDraco Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 284	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Not deliberately trying to be glib here, but... We are the product of evolution. We have no purpose other than to engender progeny, a task which - due to our state of evolved intelligence - is now optional. IF we figure out a TOE, then we will simply know more about the universe than we do today. It doesn't mean that we will be able to manipulate the universe as we desire - that requires a whole lot more than just understanding. I think that it is theoretically possible to know how everything in the universe works. That does not necessarily mean that I believe that we will someday know how everything in the universe works. It simply means that I think that every process that occurs in the universe has a rational, natural explanation that we can in principle understand and quantify. Well said. Quote: Perhaps there isn't a "why" Agreed, although even is there is I'm comfortable enough with "I don't know" (or "we don't know yet") that I don't need made up answers to fill the gaps. If we make up stuff to fill the gaps, we won't seek what's really in them.