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Old 21st October 2009, 03:02 AM   #1
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UK Parliament "Evidence Check: Homeopathy"

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamenta...n05_091020.cfm

The new Science and Technology Committee has been asked by the government to consider the evidence for homoeopathy, and is asking for "short submissions":

Quote:
In preparation for the establishment of the Science and Technology Committee on 1 October, the former IUSS Committee commissioned work to assess the Government's use of evidence in policy-making. The Committee wrote to the Government on a number of topics and asked two questions: (1) What is the policy? (2) On what evidence is the policy based? The Government has now replied and having considered the responses the Committee has selected Homeopathy for its second Evidence Check. (The Government's response will be made available soon.)

The Committee invites short submissions by Friday 6 November on the following issues:

- Government policy on licensing of homeopathic products

- Government policy on the funding of homeopathy through the NHS

- the evidence base on homeopathic products and services.

Contact details and guidelines for submissions are available via the link.
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Old 21st October 2009, 03:15 AM   #2
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Well if they're looking for evidence of the effectiveness of Homoeopathy it'll be a mighty short submission
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Old 21st October 2009, 04:09 AM   #3
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Hopefully yes, but note that we're already in the unfortunate circumstance of NHS funding of homeopathy so time invested preparing a blank sheet of paper could in this case be time well spent.
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Old 21st October 2009, 05:54 AM   #4
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It's an awfully short deadline....

Rolfe.
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Old 21st October 2009, 06:02 AM   #5
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What about submitting the evidence that has already been published in medical journals, i.e. negative evidence?
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Old 21st October 2009, 07:10 AM   #6
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I'm confused...

Quote:
Please also note that:

— Material already published elsewhere should not form the basis of a submission, but may be referred to within a proposed memorandum, in which case a hard copy of the published work should be included.
- from the announcement linked to above.

If material already published cannot form the basis of a submission then that stops someone who has published research on the subject from making a submission based on their research... or have I mis-understood this?
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Old 21st October 2009, 08:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by M.ister W View Post
I'm confused...

- from the announcement linked to above.

If material already published cannot form the basis of a submission then that stops someone who has published research on the subject from making a submission based on their research... or have I mis-understood this?
I think you've misunderstood. I think they mean "don't just send us a copy of your pre-print from the _Lancet_; put it in context 'cause we're bureaucrats."

So you write a memo that says "As I showed in the _Lancet_ (see attached), there is no evidentiary basis for homeopathy whatsoever and therefore it should neither be funded nor supported through the NHS. Hugs and kisses, Lord Marmalade, MA (Cantab), DPhil (Oxon), FRS, FRCS, FRSPCA, OM, PC, DH, XYZ-PDQ"
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Old 21st October 2009, 09:37 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's an awfully short deadline....

Rolfe.
snap.
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Old 21st October 2009, 01:45 PM   #9
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The Guardian's Science Blog has covered this: Homeopathy licences based on "no scientific evidence".

It includes a link to the governments responses to the committee's earlier questions: Memorandum from Government on the Innovation, Universities, Science & Skills Select Committee Evidence Check

Quote:
The first few pages of the report cover homeopathy, in particular the scientific evidence used by the government to decide which homeopathic medicines to licence. It begins by explaining:
"Because homeopathic products have a long and established traditional use in the UK, the licensing regime functions primarily to ensure that they are both safe and of suitable quality. It also functions to provide improved and consistent product information for consumers."
Except how it is supposed to work.

The response, from the Department of Health, lists three elements that make up the UK's licensing regime, including the National Rules Scheme, which our Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency brought in three years ago. On this, the department is clear:
"No scientific evidence was examined in drawing up the National Rules Scheme..."

See also the comments about university courses in pseudoscience (p. 10 of the government responses document).

***Eagerly awaits the next posting on DC's Improbable Science***

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Old 21st October 2009, 03:47 PM   #10
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In case anyone was curious about the first parliamentary Evidence Check, it concerns literacy interventions in the education system.

I wonder what, if anything, will come of these evidence checks. It's not as if anyone who cares to find out doesn't already know that homeopathy is garbage.
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Old 23rd October 2009, 01:03 AM   #11
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***Bump***

Is anyone submitting anything to them?
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Old 23rd October 2009, 03:54 AM   #12
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What sort of thing will the committee look at on its own account?

For example, are they likely to ask Edzard Ernst for an opinion or call him as a witness?
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Old 23rd October 2009, 07:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
***Bump***

Is anyone submitting anything to them?
I'm intending to, but I won't have time to work on it until next week, which means I'll be working to an even shorter deadline.
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Old 24th October 2009, 03:06 AM   #14
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I think this consultation may be a bit different from the usual government gerrymandering. For a start the committee chairman Phil Willis MP is a good sceptic and he has good scientists as researchers (I know one of them). I suspect the aim is not to learn anything new about homeopathy, but to challenge the government's support of it.

Yes, I do know that highly authoritative people have been called to give oral evidence, so it could be interesting. I am preparing my submission, and I know others have done so, but they can't be published so you won't see them blogged.
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Old 20th November 2009, 10:21 AM   #15
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HAHAHAHAHAHA.
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Old 20th November 2009, 10:57 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Now, that is just *too* funny. C'mon, it has to be a hoax, right?
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Old 20th November 2009, 12:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
I'm intending to, but I won't have time to work on it until next week, which means I'll be working to an even shorter deadline.
Rather uselessly, I failed to make a submission.

I am ashamed.
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Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 20th November 2009, 02:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Rather uselessly, I failed to make a submission.

I am ashamed.
Oh don't feel bad. Here, have some homeopathic beer..

*turns on tap*

Careful now...
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Old 20th November 2009, 02:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Rather uselessly, I failed to make a submission.

I am ashamed.

Just think vaguely negative things about homoeopathy at about 9 each night, and everything will be fine.
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Old 20th November 2009, 03:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by uk_dave View Post
Oh don't feel bad. Here, have some homeopathic beer..

*turns on tap*

Careful now...
Steady on, I wasn't having a drink at all until you did that, which means my beer was even stronger, and now you've spilled my non-pint.
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"i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath.
"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park)
Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 24th November 2009, 11:30 AM   #21
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Heads up.

Homeopathy session on BBC Parliament tomorrow 9.30am or watch online at http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Pl...meetingId=5221

Quote:
Thatcher Room
Meeting starts on Wednesday 25 November at 9.30am

Evidence Check: Homeopathy
Witnesses

i. Professor Jayne Lawrence, Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, Robert Wilson, British Association of Homeopathic Manufacturers, Paul Bennett, Boots, Tracey Brown, Sense About Science, and Dr Ben Goldacre, The Guardian

ii. Dr Peter Fisher, Royal London Homeopathic Hospital, Professor Edzard Ernst, Complementary Medicine Group, Peninsula Medical School, Dr James Thallon, NHS West Kent, and Dr Robert Mathie, British Homeopathic Association
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Old 25th November 2009, 02:16 AM   #22
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Bump. Less than 15 minutes to go.
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Old 25th November 2009, 02:40 AM   #23
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Who's the chair? He's brilliant.
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Old 25th November 2009, 02:45 AM   #24
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Phil Willis?
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Old 25th November 2009, 02:48 AM   #25
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Homeopathic manufacturers bloke complaining that the evidence that says homeopathy is rubbish is based on small trials! Not letting him get away with it though.
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Old 25th November 2009, 02:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Phil Willis?
Yes, it is: http://www.philwillis.org.uk


This is serious stuff. The homeopaths must be squirming.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Pl...meetingId=5221
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Old 25th November 2009, 03:01 AM   #27
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Live commentary from the Guardian here
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Old 25th November 2009, 03:08 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by dogjones View Post
Live commentary from the Guardian here

Coming up...

10.30am
Dr Peter Fisher, director of research, Royal London Homeopathic Hospital
Professor Edzard Ernst, director, Complementary Medicine Group, Peninsula Medical School
Dr James Thallon, medical director, NHS West Kent
Dr Robert Mathie, research development adviser, British Homeopathic
Association

(A transcript of the proceedings will be available at the end of the week.)
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Old 25th November 2009, 03:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dogjones View Post
Live commentary from the Guardian here
There goes my morning. Great start!
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Old 25th November 2009, 03:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Who's the chair? He's brilliant.

It's not the chair that I think is brilliant, it's the large guy with the glasses and the mauve shirt. Anyone know who he is?
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Old 25th November 2009, 03:26 AM   #31
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Professor David Colquhoun has just started tweeting on the proceedings:
http://twitter.com/david_Colquhoun

(Keep refreshing his page.)
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Old 25th November 2009, 03:52 AM   #32
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"Mathie: "Efficacy is judged in placebo-controlled trials...it's specific, in terms of drug, dose and schedule. Efficacy is almost a laboratory experiment to see if a drug can have an effect."

Peter Fisher (London homeopathic hospital) - yes, treatments should be offered on the basis of efficacy and effectiveness"

That pretty much kills off homeopathy then

<editted typo>
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Old 25th November 2009, 04:10 AM   #33
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Kumar will be pleased - one of them has just mentioned "silica"!
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Old 25th November 2009, 04:38 AM   #34
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In a nutshell...

Quote:
11.22am: And there we have it.
Boots sells homeopathy despite having no evidence that it works, the homeopaths want more research and think Nobel prizes await because it overturns accepted science, and the scientists themselves think there's no evidence of it working whatsoever. A £1.5bn industry none the less. Extraordinary.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/bl...logy-committee
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Old 25th November 2009, 06:02 AM   #35
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Anyone know what this trial is that Robert Wilson used as his new rabbit out of a hat evidence that arnica works?
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Old 25th November 2009, 06:16 AM   #36
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For anyone who missed it, the session can still be viewed here (1hr 51mins):
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Pl...meetingId=5221

NB. Next session:
Quote:
Monday 30 November 2009
4.15pm:

Mike O'Brien QC MP, Minister for Health Services, Department of Health;
Professor David Harper, Director General, Health Improvement and Protection, and Chief Scientist, Department of Health;
Professor Kent Woods, Chief Executive, Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency

See foot of page here:
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamenta...hy_inquiry.cfm
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Old 25th November 2009, 06:25 AM   #37
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How extraordinarily frustrating it's been to listen to this debate, especially Peter Fisher's session.

Grrrnngggghhh!
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Old 25th November 2009, 06:37 AM   #38
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- Homoeopathy is old, and very popular in France.
- So is prostitution.



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Old 25th November 2009, 06:38 AM   #39
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Is Robert Wilson wearing a copper bracelet on his right wrist?

Does homeopathy not work for him?
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"i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath.
"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park)
Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 25th November 2009, 06:47 AM   #40
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My favourite bit (quoted from the grauniad commentary)

Quote:
Wilson's comment: "If they didn't work beyond the placebo effect, why do people keep buying them?"
Willis: "That wasn't a serious comment was it?!"

Willis quizzing Wilson - if you have evidence that it works, why don't you give it to Boots. Boots just admitted they have no evidence that the stuff works.
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