masturbation, sin, the brain police and you:

[quarky]

I'd like to speak frankly about masturbation, in a non-gratuitous, philosophical fashion.

John and I were 16 year old virgins, life-guards at the same swim club, friends, and team mates. Judy was his 14 year old sister, whom he considered a pest. She was stunning, actually, lots of fun, and a budding athlete. She liked me and flirted relentlessly, while I struggled to not let on how it got to me. I never touched her, after a full year of torment.

But I did masturbate at home, thinking of her. I've never masturbated with out a story running through my mind. I don't know if all guys are like that.
Judy became a frequent film in my horny imagination.
Later in life, too, it was the sexual encounters that never quite happened that have provided the most background mastabatory mind footage.

Pretty innocent, so far. But what if I ran the Judy fantasy when I'm 35? And she's still 14? Suddenly, its pretty creepy. I can't age her appropriately in the fantasy, because I haven't seen her since she was 14.

I have stopped all masturbating thoughts that could be seen as offensive, should there ever be mind-reading police, or a god that hears our inner words.


Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by quarky

Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

That would depend on who is listening. I do have some fairly graphic violent thoughts regarding people who cut me off in traffic.

[jimtron]

Quote:

I have stopped all masturbating thoughts that could be seen as offensive, should there ever be mind-reading police, or a god that hears our inner words.

You're going to hell for the sin of Onanism. But seriously, there's a big difference between thoughts and actions. We'd all be in trouble if there were brain police. Who hasn't had random awful thoughts like when you're standing on a train platform, of pushing someone in front of a train? Just me? Uh-oh...

[quarky]

Your mom? Or god. Or the government. Would it matter who was listening, if someone was?
Wouldn't you tend to edit your inner words?

If you had to expose yourself in front of a group of people, such as, walking naked past a group of them, would you rather they were strangers, or friends?

The brain police may be coming or not. The technological possibility has become less fantastic, if not eventually do-able. If we knew our files were going to be searched by a repressive regime, for instance, what would we want to delete before they got here?

sins, for lack of better word?

[quarky]

Originally Posted by jimtron

You're going to hell for the sin of Onanism. But seriously, there's a big difference between thoughts and actions. We'd all be in trouble if there were brain police. Who hasn't had random awful thoughts like when you're standing on a train platform, of pushing someone in front of a train? Just me? Uh-oh...

Actions spring from thought, though not all thought demands action.
Is it wooishness to want to inspect one's own thoughts, and gradually edit out the ones that make us cringe?

what am i yammering about? I forget.

Damn.

I miss Judy.

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by quarky

Would it matter who was listening, if someone was?

It would to me. The things I share with my husband are quite different from what I would share with my mother which are quite different from what I would share with one of my business colleagues.

[jimtron]

Originally Posted by quarky

Actions spring from thought, though not all thought demands action.
Is it wooishness to want to inspect one's own thoughts, and gradually edit out the ones that make us cringe?

I do think it's common--maybe even universal--to have random violent thoughts every now and then, and I think those inclined to woo might sometimes get the mistaken idea that their thoughts might affect reality (like: if I think something bad's going to happen to someone, then it really will). Also, of course some religious folks probably feel guilty about sexual and other "inappropriate" thoughts.

To me it seems normal to have dark thoughts sometimes, and it shouldn't be a problem unless they drive you crazy, or act on them. You can harm another person with actions, but not with thoughts (obvious I know, but maybe not to everyone).

[UNLoVedRebel]

That was one of the most disturbing OPs I've ever read in my life.

ETA:

Originally Posted by quarky

Actions spring from thought

This is one of the most fundamentally flawed paradigms in Western Culture, but I don't want to derail the topic.

On second thought, maybe I do.

[quarky]

My dark thought is that thought does matter.

I'm becoming my own brain police because of it. Its kind of a pain in my butt. I can't masturbate anymore, for instance, unless the fantasy scenario is concerned with her feelings. I have to start out imagining that I'm cleaning out her parent's gutters, or doing charity work.

By the time I get to the x-rated part, I'm too sleepy to continue.

I can no longer come up with a plausible scenario for the cheap, tawdry, and quick out-come that I desire.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Your behavior is dictated by a complex interaction between genes and environment. Your thoughts are a byproduct of this interaction. Karl Marx mentioned that thoughts do not control behavior but behavior controls thoughts in the 19th century. William James also claimed the same. The famous LaPierre study in the 1930's was the first to shed light on the phenomenon; he concluded from his study that people's attitudes were incongruent with their behavior. His study however was not scientific. Leon Fessinger was the first to provide scientific evidence that thoughts do not predict behavior. That's how he came up with the famous Cognitive Dissonance Theory, which gets thrown around these forums like the Sunday paper. At the same time, Skinner was explaining his research on Operant Conditioning which provided a description of behavior with what he called three-term contingency. He proved thoughts were not needed to control and predict behavior. Darwinian evolution isn't concerned with "thoughts" or "feelings" of the organism; it's only concerned with the behavior of the organism and how it responds to its environment. "Thoughts" are an intervening variable which you cannot know, even if you could it wouldn't predict behavior.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Originally Posted by quarky

I can no longer come up with a plausible scenario for the cheap, tawdry, and quick out-come that I desire.

Was that necessary?

[Burning Beard]

Interesting topic!

I still sometimes think back to my first "real" girlfriend and losing our virginity together.

She was VERY hot, and that's how I picture her still in my head... the thing was, to me, she pretty much was a woman at the time even though we were both quite young. Hard to explain, but I don't feel dirty or shameful for it... I think

But I've had plenty of violent thoughts about people... purely imaginary but quite sick in a Patric Bateman kind of way. If somebody could somehow read the things I've imagined I'd be put in a cage. Yet in reality I'm the nice guy that goes gaga over kittens, hahaha.

[MontagK505]

Originally Posted by quarky

I'd like to speak frankly about masturbation, in a non-gratuitous, philosophical fashion.


I have stopped all masturbating thoughts that could be seen as offensive, should there ever be mind-reading police, or a god that hears our inner words.


Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

George Orwell had some interesting things to say about this. (Thought-Crime)

Actually, I don't think you can control thoughts. Only your actions and your awareness of your thoughts can be regulated.

Constantly supressing your awareness of a specific inner state could have negative mental health problems. For the reason you can't deal with things that you refuse to became aware of.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Personally I don't care if you masturbate to documentaries about genocide in Rwanda as long as you keep it you yourself. It doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg, as Jefferson put it.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel

Your behavior is dictated by a complex interaction between genes and environment. Your thoughts are a byproduct of this interaction. Karl Marx mentioned that thoughts do not control behavior but behavior controls thoughts in the 19th century. William James also claimed the same. The famous LaPierre study in the 1930's was the first to shed light on the phenomenon; he concluded from his study that people's attitudes were incongruent with their behavior. His study however was not scientific. Leon Fessinger was the first to provide scientific evidence that thoughts do not predict behavior. That's how he came up with the famous Cognitive Dissonance Theory, which gets thrown around these forums like the Sunday paper. At the same time, Skinner was explaining his research on Operant Conditioning which provided a description of behavior with what he called three-term contingency. He proved thoughts were not needed to control and predict behavior. Darwinian evolution isn't concerned with "thoughts" or "feelings" of the organism; it's only concerned with the behavior of the organism and how it responds to its environment. "Thoughts" are an intervening variable which you cannot know, even if you could it wouldn't predict behavior.

You do know that behaviourism is pretty much discredited nowadays?

If you don't think thoughts influence behaviour, try solving a chess puzzle without thinking. Or if you find evolutionary-psychological Just So stories more convincing than a concrete demonstration you can perform for yourself, consider that we probably developed the ability to process information with our conscious minds for a reason.

Philosophical skepticism about free will is empirically defensible, but the idea that our conscious minds don't do anything is very strange.

[MontagK505]

Also I wouldn't feel guilty about masturbation over a 14 yr old that you knew when you were 16. I would imagine you would have to regress your mental state to 16 to imagine her at 14.

If you are constantly having thoughts about a 14yr old you knew at the age of 35, I would be worried.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe

Personally I don't care if you masturbate to documentaries about genocide in Rwanda as long as you keep it you yourself. It doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg, as Jefferson put it.

I think this is about the best advice you will get here. It does not matter what you have fantasies about. Ask yourself do you really want to act them out? Have you taken steps to do so? If no to both questions then no problem.

If you are really worried (you booked that plane flight to a war torn area and someone suggests it might be dangerous) see your GP.

[CriticalSock]

Don't fret yourself quarky! Your fantasy is something that doesn't exist. There is no 14 year old Judy any more. It's like whacking off while imagining a Unicorn foal. No biggy!

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe

You do know that behaviourism is pretty much discredited nowadays?

If you don't think thoughts influence behaviour, try solving a chess puzzle without thinking. Or if you find evolutionary-psychological Just So stories more convincing than a concrete demonstration you can perform for yourself, consider that we probably developed the ability to process information with our conscious minds for a reason.

Philosophical skepticism about free will is empirically defensible, but the idea that our conscious minds don't do anything is very strange.

Actually, I'm one of the guys prone to hyperfocus. Look that one up. It comes with the territory in ADHD and Asperger's. It's funny what you can solve without a single thought phrased into words. Chess was not my cup of tea, but I could solve physics problems 4 years ahead of my current year in school essentially without doing much more consciously than watching my hand write like controlled by something else.

And it's not even that surprising when you think of it. We solve lots of simple problems every day without phrasing them into words. We make judgments and have "gut feelings" which boil down to just that: non-conscious reasoning.

Do I have any doubt that a chess master could play a whole game without ever having conscious thoughts like "now if I move the horsey thing here, what could happen to it?" No. In fact I'd be far more surprised if they did put it into words. Studies show that those guys recognize whole _patterns_ on the board, not think individual pieces and moves. And among things that's why brute-force computer algorithms have that hard a time against humans.

So I won't say that conscious thought does _nothing_, in fact quite the opposite. But taking it to be everything or thinking that you _need_ it to solve a puzzle, is false too.

[Hux]

You just need to think of someone else when you crack one off mate. Dont philosophise over it; don't destroy a great moment. Just get out the old Light Sabre and dance.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by CriticalSock

......... It's like whacking off while imagining a Unicorn foal.

Cor!

Seriously though there are thoughts that go around my mind that I wouldn't share with anybody.

[Bikewer]

Geez....If the brain police ever looked into my cranium I'd likely be in big trouble. My fantasies are scripted, cast, and highly involved....And kinky as Hell.

I've never for a moment considered anything that goes on in my fantasy life as at all applicable to the real world. As some wag said about The Story Of O, "The poor girl would have been hospitalized after the first night..."

[Lanzy]

Censoring thoughts is way too hard, I guess the thought police will just have to get used to mine.

OTOH, I read somewhere (no cite) that whatever you are thinking of at the moment of orgasm, That is your true object of desire. If it is a 14 yo, sorry, that is what you want.

Or, I could be wrong. Since you are the only one that really knows what you are thinking, you are the only one that has to deal with it. The real problem is "why" you feel bad about your thoughts, I am certain thoughts Can lead to actions, but they don't have to.

[calebprime]

Don't worry so much.

You're allowed to be younger in your fantasies.

But, unless you're rich, attempting to act on those fantasies would be disgusting. Until you're really old. Then it's sort of plucky and funny, maybe starting around age 80.

Actually, the handyman fantasy isn't so far-fetched.

All the ladies I know really like Mr. Fixer-Upper. His big leather belt of tools.

[HansMustermann]

Also, here's one more vote for "it depends on who's listening." For example, if it were mom, I think it would be only polite to fantasize about someone else

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by quarky

I'd like to speak frankly about masturbation, in a non-gratuitous, philosophical fashion.

John and I were 16 year old virgins, life-guards at the same swim club, friends, and team mates. Judy was his 14 year old sister, whom he considered a pest. She was stunning, actually, lots of fun, and a budding athlete. She liked me and flirted relentlessly, while I struggled to not let on how it got to me. I never touched her, after a full year of torment.

But I did masturbate at home, thinking of her. I've never masturbated with out a story running through my mind. I don't know if all guys are like that.
Judy became a frequent film in my horny imagination.
Later in life, too, it was the sexual encounters that never quite happened that have provided the most background mastabatory mind footage.

Pretty innocent, so far. But what if I ran the Judy fantasy when I'm 35? And she's still 14? Suddenly, its pretty creepy. I can't age her appropriately in the fantasy, because I haven't seen her since she was 14.

I have stopped all masturbating thoughts that could be seen as offensive, should there ever be mind-reading police, or a god that hears our inner words.


Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

your thoughts are very common
you have nothing to worry about
you can run the Judy fantasy until youre 80 and it would still be ok, its an immature fantasy which youve had since you were immature yourself, its when you decide that a fantasy about doing 14 year olds needs real time fullfillment or when you start getting turned on by other children generally that you need to go hang yourself/hand yourself in to the police/get righteously beaten up by a mob (delete where applicable)
if sexual thoughts were prosecutable then the vast majority of men would be up on rape charges for not gaining prior consent from their sex brain bunnies

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by quarky

Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

No, but if I knew someone was reading my thoughts I'd have a few extra-cruel fantasies just for them...

[Information Analyst]

Originally Posted by MontagK505

Also I wouldn't feel guilty about masturbation over a 14 yr old that you knew when you were 16. I would imagine you would have to regress your mental state to 16 to imagine her at 14.

If you are constantly having thoughts about a 14yr old you knew at the age of 35, I would be worried.

I would hazard a guess that re-running or even re-inventing sexual episodes from our past is a by no means uncommon phenomenon, even of it involves taking certain situations to a conclusion that they never got to, regardless of how old we are now compared to the age of the other party or parties at the time. It's like I can still look at the class photograph from the last year at my middle school, and I can still see why I was attracted to my on-off girlfriend who is also in it, as well as the other girls who were deemed to be "fit" at the time, but of course anyone else looking at it would just see a bunch of 12/13 year old kids. I don't think the occasional "what might have been" fantasy is anything to worry about.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by jimtron

You're going to hell for the sin of Onanism. But seriously, there's a big difference between thoughts and actions. We'd all be in trouble if there were brain police. Who hasn't had random awful thoughts like when you're standing on a train platform, of pushing someone in front of a train? Just me? Uh-oh...

Onanism is coitus interuptus,not masturbation.

[Information Analyst]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Geez....If the brain police ever looked into my cranium I'd likely be in big trouble.

I suspect that if the brain police ever become a reality, pretty much everyone will get locked up very quickly.... including the brain police themselves!

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Marduk

your thoughts are very common
you have nothing to worry about
you can run the Judy fantasy until youre 80 and it would still be ok, its an immature fantasy which youve had since you were immature yourself, its when you decide that a fantasy about doing 14 year olds needs real time fullfillment or when you start getting turned on by other children generally that you need to go hang yourself/hand yourself in to the police/get righteously beaten up by a mob (delete where applicable)
if sexual thoughts were prosecutable then the vast majority of men would be up on rape charges for not gaining prior consent from their sex brain bunnies

With all due respect, at least some of mine did say "baaah" in a way that was clearly consent

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by quarky

I'd like to speak frankly about masturbation, in a non-gratuitous, philosophical fashion.

John and I were 16 year old virgins, life-guards at the same swim club, friends, and team mates. Judy was his 14 year old sister, whom he considered a pest. She was stunning, actually, lots of fun, and a budding athlete. She liked me and flirted relentlessly, while I struggled to not let on how it got to me. I never touched her, after a full year of torment.

But I did masturbate at home, thinking of her. I've never masturbated with out a story running through my mind. I don't know if all guys are like that.
Judy became a frequent film in my horny imagination.
Later in life, too, it was the sexual encounters that never quite happened that have provided the most background mastabatory mind footage.

Pretty innocent, so far. But what if I ran the Judy fantasy when I'm 35? And she's still 14? Suddenly, its pretty creepy. I can't age her appropriately in the fantasy, because I haven't seen her since she was 14.

I have stopped all masturbating thoughts that could be seen as offensive, should there ever be mind-reading police, or a god that hears our inner words.


Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

Go ahead with the fantasy. fantasys hurt no one. Just don't allow the fantasy to become reality. Hopefully you have a partner by now.

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by Marduk

your thoughts are very common
you have nothing to worry about
you can run the Judy fantasy until youre 80 and it would still be ok, its an immature fantasy which youve had since you were immature yourself, its when you decide that a fantasy about doing 14 year olds needs real time fullfillment or when you start getting turned on by other children generally that you need to go hang yourself/hand yourself in to the police/get righteously beaten up by a mob (delete where applicable)
if sexual thoughts were prosecutable then the vast majority of men would be up on rape charges for not gaining prior consent from their sex brain bunnies

I read in a medical journal way back in the late 70's that said most pedophiles never act on their fantasys. Psychiatric advice in those days for this illness was to get an adult partner and to stay away from children. In this day and time where you read about horrible things happening to kids one has to wonder how much things have changed and why?

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel

Was that necessary?

No, but it was damn funny.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by calebprime

Actually, the handyman fantasy isn't so far-fetched.

All the ladies I know really like Mr. Fixer-Upper. His big leather belt of tools.

Back when I delivered pizza for a living, I was very disappointed that no female customers ever propositioned me. After talking to other pizza guys, it's just as well - apparently there's usually a boyfriend or husband watching from a closet.

[Darth Rotor]

If the brain police were trying to look into my brain, I suspect most of what I'd be thinking would be "Eff you you effin' bunch of effheaded brain police" or words/thoughts to that effect. Now, if they'd offer a washing up service, I'd appreciate them cleaning out my memory of the one time I was damned fool enough to click on tubgirl. Might even pay for that cleaning service.

DR

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I read in a medical journal way back in the late 70's that said most pedophiles never act on their fantasys. Psychiatric advice in those days for this illness was to get an adult partner and to stay away from children. In this day and time where you read about horrible things happening to kids one has to wonder how much things have changed and why?

thats no longer sound psychiatric advice, thesedays the fact that someone is focusing on children is the dividing line, the OP isn't fantasizing on a child, hes just fantasizing about a personality he once knew, and even thats giving him pause for thought, a paedophile doesnt think theres anything wrong with their thought process, thats the danger

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by jimtron

You're going to hell for the sin of Onanism. But seriously, there's a big difference between thoughts and actions. We'd all be in trouble if there were brain police. Who hasn't had random awful thoughts like when you're standing on a train platform, of pushing someone in front of a train? Just me? Uh-oh...

Actually, regardless of years (centuries) of misuse, Onan's sin was not masturbation but was coitus interruptus - he pulled out so he wouldn't make the wife of his dead brother (who, under Jewish law, had to become his wife)
pregnant. Apparently, god was having a bad day so he smote Onan a swift one across his head, exterminating the nice lady's second husband and making furthur marriages for her unlikely.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If the brain police were trying to look into my brain, I suspect most of what I'd be thinking would be "Eff you you effin' bunch of effheaded brain police" or words/thoughts to that effect. Now, if they'd offer a washing up service, I'd appreciate them cleaning out my memory of the one time I was damned fool enough to click on tubgirl. Might even pay for that cleaning service.

DR

That have anything to do with small fish or eels?

[Sceptic Realist]

Originally Posted by quarky

I'd like to speak frankly about masturbation, in a non-gratuitous, philosophical fashion.

John and I were 16 year old virgins, life-guards at the same swim club, friends, and team mates. Judy was his 14 year old sister, whom he considered a pest. She was stunning, actually, lots of fun, and a budding athlete. She liked me and flirted relentlessly, while I struggled to not let on how it got to me. I never touched her, after a full year of torment.

But I did masturbate at home, thinking of her. I've never masturbated with out a story running through my mind. I don't know if all guys are like that.
Judy became a frequent film in my horny imagination.
Later in life, too, it was the sexual encounters that never quite happened that have provided the most background mastabatory mind footage.

Pretty innocent, so far. But what if I ran the Judy fantasy when I'm 35? And she's still 14? Suddenly, its pretty creepy. I can't age her appropriately in the fantasy, because I haven't seen her since she was 14.

I have stopped all masturbating thoughts that could be seen as offensive, should there ever be mind-reading police, or a god that hears our inner words.


Are there things you would consciously quit thinking about if you knew that they were being listened to?

Honestly, no. Whatever sick, twisted stuff goes on in my head every now and then, what matters is that I can control my ACTIONS. I'm no psychiatrist, but I think it's even healthy to have evil thoughts from time to time. Gives you a chance to explore and ultimately realize the consequences of certain actions. I personally don't give a flying ape if one of my friends fantasizes about banging my mom, for example. That's his business. As long as he doesn't do it, whatever. And if there is anyone monitoring thoughts, what right have they to do that? They would be in the wrong, not I.