Nick Griffin, BNP leader on BBC's Question Time

[Lothian]

So the obnoxious, convicted racist, Nick Griffin gets to broadcasts his grubby ideas to the nation tonight.

I am fully in favour and hope he that he gets exposed for the loathsome hatemonger that he is.





Note to mods: Please merge if there is already a thread

[Skeptic]

When David Irving was interviewed, people complained that it just gives him a platform. The BBC replied -- quite correctly -- that it asked him tough questions. The problem, as the author of "Lying About Hitler" (Prof. Richard Evans) noted, is that they asked tough questions but didn't expose the lies in the following answers. Let's hope the BBC learned something.

[brodski]

Question Time has a very specific format, griffin is not going to be interviwed by the BBC at all (he will comment on questions posed by the audence) and is unlikely to face a grilling. Given the level of electrol support for the BNP baring them from QT would be worse than inviting them.

[Lothian]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

When David Irving was interviewed, people complained that it just gives him a platform. The BBC replied -- quite correctly -- that it asked him tough questions. The problem, as the author of "Lying About Hitler" (Prof. Richard Evans) noted, is that they asked tough questions but didn't expose the lies in the following answers. Let's hope the BBC learned something.

Question time is a panel show. 5 guests and an audience who take turns to give their opinion on the questions of the day. The host manages the event and reads out the questions provided by the audience on the way in.

The host rarely quizzes the guests leaving that to the other panellists and the audience but he will occasionally “but in” to point out that the question is not being answered and the guest is drifting off topic.

Tonight the guests along with Griffin are Jack Straw, Labour. Baroness Warsi, Conservative. Chris Huhne, Lib Dem. & Bonnie Greer playwright.

[3point14]

Surely you have to let the idiots speak, otherwise how do you know that they're idiots?

[fagin]

Heard interview with someone from BBC this morning (driving to work so only partly concentrating).
BNP is a legitimate political party, BBC mandate does not allow them to decide which views can or cannot be aired. The government can do this by legislation.
Seems simple to me - they are entitled to have their say.
The audience and guests on QT can be pretty bloody minded sometimes - hopefully they will ask the right/difficult questions to show him up for what (I believe) he is.
I will be watching anyway.

[Uzzy]

Having seen the grilling some members of the public have given politicians who appear on Question Time, I'm confident that Griffin will get some pretty tough questions. Should be rather enjoyable to see him suffer.

[Arcade22]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8321157.stm

"Anti-fascists" acting like blackshirts...why am i not surprised?

[Policenaut]

This quote is pretty amazing: "'Yes, Adolf went a bit too far." Reminds me of Kryten responding to the corrupt future Rimmer: "Herman Goering is a bit dodgy?"

[Perfume V]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8321157.stm

"Anti-fascists" acting like blackshirts...why am i not surprised?

Yeah, I'm sure we all remember those chilling scenes of Oswald Moseley's supporters standing placidly carrying signs. My God, it's a wonder British democracy survived such an onslaught.

Seriously, to pretend a few people jumping a barricade then being led back to the rest of the crowd is anything like the violence that the blackshirts perpetrated shows a hilarious lack of perspective. But I'm sure all of tomorrow's papers will pretend the protesters were all violent lunatics, because that's how our brave principled media work.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Perfume V

Yeah, I'm sure we all remember those chilling scenes of Oswald Moseley's supporters standing placidly carrying signs. My God, it's a wonder British democracy survived such an onslaught.

Seriously, to pretend a few people jumping a barricade then being led back to the rest of the crowd is anything like the violence that the blackshirts perpetrated shows a hilarious lack of perspective. But I'm sure all of tomorrow's papers will pretend the protesters were all violent lunatics, because that's how our brave principled media work.

This isn't the first time a "few people" aka. far-left extremist have attacked and tried to disturb the BNP and it's supporters, but you know this very well, don't you?

These kinds of attacks are a violation of free speech and democracy it self.

[dudalb]

Arcade 22, I am getting sort of concerned about the way you seem to sympathize with the likes of the BNP.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Perfume V

Yeah, I'm sure we all remember those chilling scenes of Oswald Moseley's supporters standing placidly carrying signs. My God, it's a wonder British democracy survived such an onslaught.

Seriously, to pretend a few people jumping a barricade then being led back to the rest of the crowd is anything like the violence that the blackshirts perpetrated shows a hilarious lack of perspective. But I'm sure all of tomorrow's papers will pretend the protesters were all violent lunatics, because that's how our brave principled media work.

On the other hand, these kind of over the top protests give the BNP a chance to play the "we are matyrs for free speech" card and I don't think it is particularly smart to give them that opportunity.

[Uzzy]

Exactly. He should be allowed to speak, given that we have free speech in this country. That way, his views get heard, and everyone can realise that his views are disgusting.

The whole current anti-fascism movement is going about things very wrong. Show fascism as the intellectually bankrupt movement that it is, and let the political discussion move on.

[Perfume V]

A protest is not an "attack", nor is it anti-democracy or anti-freedom of speech. On the contrary, it is freedom of speech in action. If you want the Holocaust denier and his party full of weapons-stockpiling nutters to have their say, you have to accept that the overwhelmingly peaceful protesters should have their say too. Indeed, I would say that being offended by the latter and not the former represents a pretty skewed perspective.

[chaggle]

I'm watching it now - let him speak - he's hanging himself.

[Uzzy]

Peaceful protest is perfectly fine. Storming the BBC TV Centre in an attempt to stop the filming (apparently) does allow the BNP to play the martyrs for free speech card.

And nice, David Dimbleby just pwned Griffin. Showed up the BNP's façade of hiding its extreme plans in favour of showing its moderate plans for now in order to get into power.

[chaggle]

Dimbleby (the host) is getting involved - he's really having a go and not letting Griffin get away with anything.

[Delscottio]

I love it that Dimbleby is actually bringing up his old quotes. Fantastic stuff. The little **** is all over the place.

[chaggle]

All the panellists and the entire audience seem to be against him

[chaggle]

Dimbleby has had another go about holocaust denial. Griffin is struggling badly now.

[Perfume V]

Originally Posted by dudalb

On the other hand, these kind of over the top protests give the BNP a chance to play the "we are matyrs for free speech" card and I don't think it is particularly smart to give them that opportunity.

I see your concern and it's something I've wondered myself a few times. On the other hand, this is someone who says that the amount of repression he had faced is comparable to anti-Communist activists in the old Eastern Bloc. He's going to be whining whether anyone does something against him or not.

The real villains in all of this, in my opinion, are the media who've consistently failed to challenge the BNP in the way they deserve. The BBC is so terrified of being seen as biased it can't even tell a Nazi to get stuffed, Sky News today was full of uncritically-repeated statements from the BNP press department and the Times had a practically glowing front-cover interview which highlighted the BBC's role in this mess in a most distasteful manner; it made me wonder whether the Murdoch press will now just give favourable coverage to anyone who they deem sufficiently anti-BBC, no matter what a slimeball they are.

EDIT: Though according to the posters above me the BBC is belatedly doing its job!

[Uzzy]

Still on for another half hour!

[chaggle]

Jack Straw is talking well.

[Harpo]

Jack Straw (Justice Minister) saying (and I'm paraphrasing here)

"If you want to explain your views on the holocaust I promise you you won't be prosecuted."

Griffin replied "Er..er..er what about France and Germany where it is against the law?"

Straw comes back with "I'll sort that out too."

It's a laugh riot. Griffin is getting beasted!!

It brings to mind the phrase "Give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves."

Destined to be a Youtube classic!! hahahahaha

[Undesired Walrus]

Is it actually unquestionably going badly for him? Are they intellectually destroying his statements about the mythical ethnic Briton? I can't watch until it comes on Iplayer.

People like Peter Hain don't seem to realise that it is their loud and very public condemnations of the BBC's decision to have Griffin on the BNP that elevate him to a equal level as the mainstream politicians. Such protests seem to give the false impression that Griffin is a man of grave importance, wheras he is simply an empty shell stinking of vile reactionary hatred.

If it is so easy to destroy his arguments, why not have him on? His arguments aren't an intellectual threat to our civilised consensus. His people maybe, but not his arguments.

Sticking our fingers in our ears and not developing a robust defense of our values will never provide society with the tools to defeat these people in public. I hate to say it, but at too many of these 'Hate Racism, Love Music' festivals, the average joe will not be able to give a scathing refutation of the BNP's views, as it hasn't been developed as it would be in debate. It's the same when people deny the Moon landing. If we give them a platform, it forces us to think: 'How can I prove the Moon walk happened'. Without that, we would simply accept the Landing occured without anything to back it up.

Glad to see the public overwhelmingly support the BBC's decision.

[Uzzy]

Well, the Conservative Party Representative just explained why you don't need to be an extreme, racist party to have a realistic immigration problem that addresses peoples concerns. Regardless of the merits of the Tory proposal, I think it was important to say that, given that much of the rise in BNP support is due to perceived flaws in government immigration policy, and the lack of government response to peoples concerns in that regard.

[Perfume V]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Is it actually going badly for him? Are they intellectually destroying his statements about the mythical ethnic Briton? I can't watch until it comes on Iplayer.

Yes - I just tuned in and Bonnie Greer was talking about the actual racial make-up of ancient Britons. He looked staggeringly out of his depth, and has since been reduced to hopelessly nodding, shaking his head, furrowing his brow etc while a crowd of people repeatedly hammer home the links between the BNP and continental neo-Nazism. My only wish is that Labour had fielded someone fiercer than Jack Straw (who has been hopeless tonight), and that QT might have indulged its usual love for celeb panellists on this one night where it might have been appropriate. Reginald D Hunter might have been interesting, no?

[Delscottio]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Well, the Conservative Party Representative just explained why you don't need to be an extreme, racist party to have a realistic immigration problem that addresses peoples concerns. Regardless of the merits of the Tory proposal, I think it was important to say that, given that much of the rise in BNP support is due to perceived flaws in government immigration policy, and the lack of government response to peoples concerns in that regard.

The problem is we are in the EU and can't limit people from other EU countries. An empty promise by the looks of things.

[chaggle]

Griffin is going on about "indigenous" Brits again. It's bad for him - the entire panel is shouting at him.

[Undesired Walrus]

Indigenous Britons? I'm puzzled as to why Griffin believes ethnic Britishness began with the Anglo-Saxon invasions of the 5th/6th century. The story of the Windrush is almost identical to that of the early Anglo-Saxons, with one notable exception: the travellers on the Windrush were invited over.

This is good, the BBC's decision. It seems to be waking up our previously apathetic British pride.

[chaggle]

A gay woman has just said that Britain is not generally homophobic and that Griffin is in a small minority. That's good to hear.

[chaggle]

Summing up: Everybody agrees that the BNP hasn't done very well out of this programme. (except for Griffin)

[Lothian]

I don't think he did well at all, however I am not his target audience. I just hope those thinking of supporting his party are having second thoughts.

[chaggle]

Originally Posted by chaggle

Summing up: Everybody agrees that the BNP hasn't done very well out of this programme. (except for Griffin)

Just to correct the above:

Summing up: Everybody agrees (except for Griffin) that the BNP hasn't done very well out of this programme.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Indigenous Britons? I'm puzzled as to why Griffin believes ethnic Britishness began with the Anglo-Saxon invasions of the 5th/6th century. The story of the Windrush is almost identical to that of the early Anglo-Saxons, with one notable exception: the travellers on the Windrush were invited over.

This is good, the BBC's decision. It seems to be waking up our previously apathetic British pride.

To be honest I didn't quite understand either side when it came to the indigenous debate. Yes, all populations that moved into Britain originally came from Africa, but all populations who moved anywhere originally traveled there from Africa. That would include Native Americans, Aborigines etc. So would it be fair to describe these people as indigenous peoples or not?

[Perfume V]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Indigenous Britons? I'm puzzled as to why Griffin believes ethnic Britishness began with the Anglo-Saxon invasions of the 5th/6th century. The story of the Windrush is almost identical to that of the early Anglo-Saxons, with one notable exception: the travellers on the Windrush were invited over.

One of the truly baffling things about white supremacists is that they seem to believe the Anglo-Saxons were the gold standard of racial purity. Because when a race has a hyphen in its name... that's just a sign that they've got too much super-duper racial purity for one word, right?

[Par]

Dimbleby mentioned Twitter.
It led to many a titter.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by Trojan_Jockey

To be honest I didn't quite understand either side when it came to the indigenous debate. Yes, all populations that moved into Britain originally came from Africa, but all populations who moved anywhere originally traveled there from Africa. That would include Native Americans, Aborigines etc. So would it be fair to describe these people as indigenous peoples or not?

Well, Nick Griffin said we wouldn't dare tell Native Americans, Aborigines, etc. that they're not indigenous. Now we must wait for him to tell white Americans and Australians that they're not indigenous because they're not the oldest racial group on the continent. And then, no doubt he'll invite the Native Americans and Aborigines to send them back. To Britain and Europe. What was your immigration policy again, Nick?

[Trojan_Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Well, Nick Griffin said we wouldn't dare tell Native Americans, Aborigines, etc. that they're not indigenous. Now we must wait for him to tell white Americans and Australians that they're not indigenous because they're not the oldest racial group on the continent. And then, no doubt he'll invite the Native Americans and Aborigines to send them back. What was your immigration policy again, Nick?

I agree absolutely, and that was the way his claim should have been challenged which would have absolutely destroyed his argument. But the argument made against him wasn't that. The panelists and the audience were so obsessed with Griffin's own obsession about racial purity they were intent on suggesting that just because a population had moved into Britain from Africa sometime after the Ice Age that meant Britain couldn't have an indigenous population. This denies anyone the justification to claim they are indigenous, and surely the panel members wouldn't deny that right to other people who claim it, such as Native Americans? It was a shame that hyperbole took over from reasoning tonight.