FREE TAPATALK APP

Ladewig · 23rd October 2009, 06:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JM4APi4XLQ

I am having some trouble with her accusation. I am not sure how to identify the political leanings of the Puerto Rican separatists who tried to assassinate Harry Truman in 1950. Can anyone explain where these folks fall on the political spectrum?

How does J.W. Booth fit in here? Surely he fired the shot because of his political beliefs, but I see no evidence that he was left wing.

Charles J. Guiteau shot Garfield in 1881. He did so because he believed that his efforts to help elect a Republican president deserved some formal recognition. He surely cannot be counted as left wing or apolitical.

As for the claim that B.H. Obama is safer than G.W. Bush, I would love to see the statistics from the U.S. Secret Service concerning written death threats.

Lurker · 23rd October 2009, 07:09 AM

Coulter is happy to make declarations like this whether there is any truth or not in the allegation. I wouldn't take any such declaration by her as truthful at all.

KingMerv00 · 23rd October 2009, 07:15 AM

J. W. Booth was strongly in favor of state's rights and smaller federal government.

Darat · 23rd October 2009, 07:17 AM

So a typical leftie!

Puppycow · 23rd October 2009, 07:17 AM

I would call Booth on the right, although I'm not even sure if they used the terms left and right in those days. I would also call Lincoln a liberal or progressive for his time and Booth a conservative or reactionary.

Puppycow · 23rd October 2009, 07:30 AM

We have to remember that in those days the democratic party and republican party were exactly the opposite of what they are today. The democratic party was the party of the South and conservatives and the republican party was the party of the North and liberals. After the war, African-Americans overwhelmingly supported the party of Lincoln (republicans) basically up until at least the FDR administration. The end of the Southern wing of the democratic party came when Strom Thurmond and the Dixiecrats broke off from the mainstream of the democratic party. Then the republican party sensed a political opportunity and the rest is history.

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 07:39 AM

Uh, Booth was a Confederate type, and assassinated Lincoln out of revenge. Needless to say, this is not a sentiment one frequently finds on the political Left.

Once again, Coulter = full of it.

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I would call Booth on the right, although I'm not even sure if they used the terms left and right in those days. I would also call Lincoln a liberal or progressive for his time and Booth a conservative or reactionary.

Libs have been trying to claim the Republican Lincoln as one of their own since FDR hired playwrite Robert Sherwood (author of the 1938 "Abe Lincoln in Illinois") as his speechwriter. His name was appropriated by American communists for the Abraham Lincoln Brigade that fought in the Spanish Civil War. It was not enough that Booth assassinated Lincoln, the revisionists in their quest to make Lincoln a communist/socialist have to assassinate his character as well.

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 09:16 AM

I'm not sure why Squeaky Fromm, for example and a Manson follower -- would be considered a "liberal".... my recollection that while wearing the patina of the hippies, Manson was facinated by Hitler and the idea of generating a race war that would bring the blacks to power but eventually bring Manson to power where he would enslave the blacks. Anyway, big dose of crazy there, not quite sure how that kind of crazy fits into this silly left/right divide.

Also, my reaction to the point is a big "so what"? It is a little like arguing that those in the Jim Crow days that approved of lynching would probably vote republican today...I mean, it is sort of meaningless out of context. It is provocative but tells you nothing....like Glenn Beck saying that liberals would be slave owners, when so many of our founding fathers were slave owners, what does that even mean?

Praktik · 23rd October 2009, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

Also, my reaction to the point is a big "so what"? It is a little like arguing that those in the Jim Crow days that approved of lynching would probably vote republican today...I mean, it is sort of meaningless out of context. It is provocative but tells you nothing....like Glenn Beck saying that liberals would be slave owners, when so many of our founding fathers were slave owners, what does that even mean?

Hmmm... does that mean the founding fathers were liberal??

Skousen must be spinning in his grave

geni · 23rd October 2009, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

As for the claim that B.H. Obama is safer than G.W. Bush, I would love to see the statistics from the U.S. Secret Service concerning written death threats.

Up aparently:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...=550&width=980

Ziggurat · 23rd October 2009, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

We have to remember that in those days the democratic party and republican party were exactly the opposite of what they are today.

There have been some changes, but certainly not everything. The Republican party was pro-business from the start, for example, and it was also much more hawkish than the Democrats. The 1864 Democrat election slogan was "compromise with the south".

dudalb · 23rd October 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Uh, Booth was a Confederate type, and assassinated Lincoln out of revenge. Needless to say, this is not a sentiment one frequently finds on the political Left.

Once again, Coulter = full of it.

Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion.

And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right.

I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion.

And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right.

I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

We're talking about shooting Presidents...assasinating civil rights leaders, that's another matter.

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion.

Yeah, "type" as in "sort of person." "Sympathizer" didn't seem strong enough, and calling him a "soldier" would attribute more value to him than what he accomplished.

Quote:

And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right.

Or Byron de la Beckwith.

Quote:

I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

Because she knows she's right, even when she's wrong.

Snide · 23rd October 2009, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion.

And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right.

I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

She's smart enough to know where the money is.

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

Becasue, realistically, she doesn't get called on them. She throws the gernade and pays no price...indeed, throwing the grenage puts food on her table...else why would she be on any show?

What's hard for me to figure, though I suspect I know the answer, is whether these interviewers are a). just happy to let her throw the grenade 'cause it gets them publicity, b). not smart or informed enough to care about the stupidity or factual basis of some of the things she says.

I suspect it is a bit of both but mostly b.

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

Really? I mentioned the left-wing fruitcake assassins back in August. A.C. is definitely on to something.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...56#post5027356

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Really? I mentioned the left-wing fruitcake assassins back in August. A.C. is definitely on to something.

No, she isn't, unless you think John Wilkes Booth was a raving leftist. And if you do think that, then you get the laughing dog.

I swear, Coulter could say that the world is flat, and you'd still pop in to defend her.

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

No, she isn't, unless you think John Wilkes Booth was a raving leftist. And if you do think that, then you get the laughing dog.

I swear, Coulter could say that the world is flat, and you'd still pop in to defend her.

I swear. A.C. could say the world is round, and you'd still pop in to ridicule her.

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

I swear. A.C. could say the world is round, and you'd still pop in to ridicule her.

Hah! That's clever!

So...Booth. Leftist or not?

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 11:12 AM

Successful Assasins

Booth...Confederate sympathiser
Guiteau...Batsh*t crazy GOP office seeker
Czolgosz ...anarchist influenced
Oswald...Communist wannabe

So, she's really not even half right...Booth and Guiteau (sp?) don't really fall into the modern leftist/rightest divide, and Guiteau really was completely "god is one of the voices in my head" nuts. I suppose it is arguable that an Anarchist is a "leftist" -- though there is a bit of the libertarian about it all. Oswald speaks for himself...he was a wanna-be commie, but certainly he doesn't fit neatly into an organized political actor...like the rest, a loner.

Now, I know we can argue about the attempted assasinations as well, but of the successful ones, Coulter's statement that they were "all" lefties is demonstrably false -- and it is problematic even in situations like Oswald where you can put it into a marginally modern political context.

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Hah! That's clever!

So...Booth. Leftist or not?

He was an actor. But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit?

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

He was an actor. But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit?

Pretty facile don't you think?

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

He was an actor.

So is Alec Baldwin. How is that relevant?

Quote:

But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit?

That's an interesting bit of free association, but not relevant. The question is about Booth, not about Hamilton or the Federalist Party. Was Booth a leftist or not?

Ladewig · 23rd October 2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Really? I mentioned the left-wing fruitcake assassins back in August. A.C. is definitely on to something.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...56#post5027356

Originally Posted by Cicero

Left wing fruitcake assassins:

Oswald
Sirhan Sirhan
Charles Guiteau
Leon Czolgosz
Arthur Bremer
John Hinckley

Can you explain why Charles Guiteau and John Hinckley are left wing?

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

He was an actor. But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit?

BTW...you realize, of course, that presumeably, Hamilton would have been one of the non-slaveholding non-lefty founding fathers so admired by Beck in contrast to the slave-holder/lefties like Washington and Jefferson and Madision? But you argue that he would be a lefty non-slaveholder, so as predictable, Beck's pretty confused by it all.

Ladewig · 23rd October 2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

Oswald speaks for himself...he was a wanna-be commie, but certainly he doesn't fit neatly into an organized political actor...like the rest, a loner.

Now, I know we can argue about the attempted assasinations as well, but of the successful ones, Coulter's statement that they were "all" lefties is demonstrably false -- and it is problematic even in situations like Oswald where you can put it into a marginally modern political context.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding her position, but she seems to me to be saying that because L.H. Oswald had strong communist ties, he was a left winger.

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Perhaps I am misunderstanding her position, but she seems to me to be saying that because L.H. Oswald had strong communist ties, he was a left winger.

I think that is exactly right, and of the four successful killers, he's the only one that even begins to fit into the modern "left/right" political divide...though, again arguably, anarchist Leon Czolgosz also fits in that divide and would be "left" of today's center and certainly left of center in his own time.

But, as pointed out, that makes Anne about 50% at best.

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

Pretty facile don't you think?

Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling?

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling?

Was Booth a Leftist or not?

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Perhaps I am misunderstanding her position, but she seems to me to be saying that because L.H. Oswald had strong communist ties, he was a left winger.

Does LHO being a communist make him a conservative?

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling?

No, the evidence is that this type of political pigeon-holing doesn't have much historical basis or utility and is ultimately silly, ergo Coulter's raison d'etre (sorry about hte spelling).

headscratcher4 · 23rd October 2009, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling?

BTW...while I wouldn't apply modern lables to Booth, I would call him a "conservative" in that he was trying to "conserve/preserve" institutions that he believed were necessary for his enjoyment of the benefits of liberty, inlcuding and specifically property rights (though they were the right to own another human being) and he was angry at what he perceived as Lincoln's use of the ham-hand of government to take away both his liberties and his rights and he thought of Lincoln as not only a tyrant but also as a dangerous radical....

Madalch · 23rd October 2009, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

I'm not sure why Squeaky Fromm, for example and a Manson follower -- would be considered a "liberal".... my recollection that while wearing the patina of the hippies, Manson was facinated by Hitler and the idea of generating a race war that would bring the blacks to power but eventually bring Manson to power where he would enslave the blacks. Anyway, big dose of crazy there, not quite sure how that kind of crazy fits into this silly left/right divide.

It's the sex and drugs. Obviously a liberal.

Cicero · 23rd October 2009, 12:12 PM

In 1933, Giuseppe Zangara shot at President-elect FDR, but killed Chicago Mayor Anton Cermak instead.

"Too many people are starving to death! "I don't hate Mr. Roosevelt personally... I hate all officials and everybody who is rich."

"You give me electric chair. I no afraid of that chair! You one of capitalists. You is crook man too. Put me in electric chair. I no care!"

Are Zangara's words the ideology of a conservative?

Cleon · 23rd October 2009, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Are Zangara's words the ideology of a conservative?

What about John Wilkes Booth? Was he a leftist?

Ladewig · 23rd October 2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Does LHO being a communist make him a conservative?

Of course not. Does LHO being a communist make him a liberal?

. . . . . . . . . . .

ETA: I'd still like to know why you consider Charles Guiteau and John Hinckley leftists.

willhaven · 23rd October 2009, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling?

Fairly compelling...

Quote:

He was also a Confederate sympathizer vehement in his denunciation of the Lincoln Administration and outraged by the South's defeat in the American Civil War. He strongly opposed the abolition of slavery in the United States and Lincoln's proposal to extend voting rights to recently emancipated slaves.

Quote:

By the age of 16, Booth was interested in the theatre and in politics, becoming a delegate from Bel Air to a rally by the Know Nothing Party for Henry Winter Davis, the anti-immigrant party's candidate for Congress in the 1854 elections.

And the Know Nothing Party?

Quote:

The Know Nothing movement was a nativist American political movement of the 1840s and 1850s. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by Irish Catholic immigrants, who were often regarded as hostile to U.S. values and controlled by the Pope in Rome. Mainly active from 1854 to 1856, it strove to curb immigration and naturalization, though its efforts met with little success. There were few prominent leaders, and the largely middle-class and entirely Protestant membership fragmented over the issue of slavery. Most ended up joining the Republican Party by the time of the 1860 presidential election.

Oh, and...

RecoveringYuppy · 23rd October 2009, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

As for the claim that B.H. Obama is safer than G.W. Bush, I would love to see the statistics from the U.S. Secret Service concerning written death threats.

It was in the news recently:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/200910.../ynews_ts950_1

ETA: Oops, just noticed this was addressed.

23rd October 2009, 06:57 AM	#1
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,939	Coulter: all presidential assasssins and thwarted ass'ns were left wing or apolitical http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JM4APi4XLQ I am having some trouble with her accusation. I am not sure how to identify the political leanings of the Puerto Rican separatists who tried to assassinate Harry Truman in 1950. Can anyone explain where these folks fall on the political spectrum? How does J.W. Booth fit in here? Surely he fired the shot because of his political beliefs, but I see no evidence that he was left wing. Charles J. Guiteau shot Garfield in 1881. He did so because he believed that his efforts to help elect a Republican president deserved some formal recognition. He surely cannot be counted as left wing or apolitical. As for the claim that B.H. Obama is safer than G.W. Bush, I would love to see the statistics from the U.S. Secret Service concerning written death threats.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board. Last edited by Ladewig; 23rd October 2009 at 06:58 AM.

23rd October 2009, 07:09 AM	#2
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187	Coulter is happy to make declarations like this whether there is any truth or not in the allegation. I wouldn't take any such declaration by her as truthful at all.
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187

23rd October 2009, 07:15 AM	#3
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	J. W. Booth was strongly in favor of state's rights and smaller federal government.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

23rd October 2009, 07:17 AM	#4
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,988	So a typical leftie!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

23rd October 2009, 07:17 AM	#5
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 16,025	I would call Booth on the right, although I'm not even sure if they used the terms left and right in those days. I would also call Lincoln a liberal or progressive for his time and Booth a conservative or reactionary.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

23rd October 2009, 07:30 AM	#6
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 16,025	We have to remember that in those days the democratic party and republican party were exactly the opposite of what they are today. The democratic party was the party of the South and conservatives and the republican party was the party of the North and liberals. After the war, African-Americans overwhelmingly supported the party of Lincoln (republicans) basically up until at least the FDR administration. The end of the Southern wing of the democratic party came when Strom Thurmond and the Dixiecrats broke off from the mainstream of the democratic party. Then the republican party sensed a political opportunity and the rest is history.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

23rd October 2009, 07:39 AM	#7
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,610	Uh, Booth was a Confederate type, and assassinated Lincoln out of revenge. Needless to say, this is not a sentiment one frequently finds on the political Left. Once again, Coulter = full of it.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

23rd October 2009, 09:10 AM	#8
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Puppycow I would call Booth on the right, although I'm not even sure if they used the terms left and right in those days. I would also call Lincoln a liberal or progressive for his time and Booth a conservative or reactionary. Libs have been trying to claim the Republican Lincoln as one of their own since FDR hired playwrite Robert Sherwood (author of the 1938 "Abe Lincoln in Illinois") as his speechwriter. His name was appropriated by American communists for the Abraham Lincoln Brigade that fought in the Spanish Civil War. It was not enough that Booth assassinated Lincoln, the revisionists in their quest to make Lincoln a communist/socialist have to assassinate his character as well.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Last edited by Cicero; 23rd October 2009 at 09:31 AM.

23rd October 2009, 09:16 AM	#9
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	I'm not sure why Squeaky Fromm, for example and a Manson follower -- would be considered a "liberal".... my recollection that while wearing the patina of the hippies, Manson was facinated by Hitler and the idea of generating a race war that would bring the blacks to power but eventually bring Manson to power where he would enslave the blacks. Anyway, big dose of crazy there, not quite sure how that kind of crazy fits into this silly left/right divide. Also, my reaction to the point is a big "so what"? It is a little like arguing that those in the Jim Crow days that approved of lynching would probably vote republican today...I mean, it is sort of meaningless out of context. It is provocative but tells you nothing....like Glenn Beck saying that liberals would be slave owners, when so many of our founding fathers were slave owners, what does that even mean?
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 09:18 AM	#10
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,275	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 Also, my reaction to the point is a big "so what"? It is a little like arguing that those in the Jim Crow days that approved of lynching would probably vote republican today...I mean, it is sort of meaningless out of context. It is provocative but tells you nothing....like Glenn Beck saying that liberals would be slave owners, when so many of our founding fathers were slave owners, what does that even mean? Hmmm... does that mean the founding fathers were liberal?? Skousen must be spinning in his grave
	__________________ “ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief" -Iain Banks

23rd October 2009, 09:24 AM	#11
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	Originally Posted by Ladewig As for the claim that B.H. Obama is safer than G.W. Bush, I would love to see the statistics from the U.S. Secret Service concerning written death threats. Up aparently: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...=550&width=980

23rd October 2009, 09:46 AM	#12
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,285	Originally Posted by Puppycow We have to remember that in those days the democratic party and republican party were exactly the opposite of what they are today. There have been some changes, but certainly not everything. The Republican party was pro-business from the start, for example, and it was also much more hawkish than the Democrats. The 1864 Democrat election slogan was "compromise with the south".
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd October 2009, 10:39 AM	#13
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by Cleon Uh, Booth was a Confederate type, and assassinated Lincoln out of revenge. Needless to say, this is not a sentiment one frequently finds on the political Left. Once again, Coulter = full of it. Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion. And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right. I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on.

23rd October 2009, 10:42 AM	#14
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by dudalb Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion. And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right. I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on. We're talking about shooting Presidents...assasinating civil rights leaders, that's another matter.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 10:44 AM	#15
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,610	Originally Posted by dudalb Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion. Yeah, "type" as in "sort of person." "Sympathizer" didn't seem strong enough, and calling him a "soldier" would attribute more value to him than what he accomplished. Quote: And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right. Or Byron de la Beckwith. Quote: I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on. Because she knows she's right, even when she's wrong.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

23rd October 2009, 10:51 AM	#16
Snide Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 3,187	Originally Posted by dudalb Type??? Hell, Booth was running a espionage ring for the South before the assination. He was very,very, inept at it and did not produce much in the way of useful information, but it shows he was foot stomping confederate a long time before the Assisantion. And I think James Earl Ray would qualify as on the political right. I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on. She's smart enough to know where the money is.

23rd October 2009, 10:53 AM	#17
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by dudalb I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on. Becasue, realistically, she doesn't get called on them. She throws the gernade and pays no price...indeed, throwing the grenage puts food on her table...else why would she be on any show? What's hard for me to figure, though I suspect I know the answer, is whether these interviewers are a). just happy to let her throw the grenade 'cause it gets them publicity, b). not smart or informed enough to care about the stupidity or factual basis of some of the things she says. I suspect it is a bit of both but mostly b.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:00 AM	#18
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by dudalb I don't get why Coulter makes such stupid statements that are so freaking easy to be called on. Really? I mentioned the left-wing fruitcake assassins back in August. A.C. is definitely on to something. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...56#post5027356
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

23rd October 2009, 11:02 AM	#19
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,610	Originally Posted by Cicero Really? I mentioned the left-wing fruitcake assassins back in August. A.C. is definitely on to something. No, she isn't, unless you think John Wilkes Booth was a raving leftist. And if you do think that, then you get the laughing dog. I swear, Coulter could say that the world is flat, and you'd still pop in to defend her.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

23rd October 2009, 11:03 AM	#20
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Cleon No, she isn't, unless you think John Wilkes Booth was a raving leftist. And if you do think that, then you get the laughing dog. I swear, Coulter could say that the world is flat, and you'd still pop in to defend her. I swear. A.C. could say the world is round, and you'd still pop in to ridicule her.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

23rd October 2009, 11:04 AM	#21
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,610	Originally Posted by Cicero I swear. A.C. could say the world is round, and you'd still pop in to ridicule her. Hah! That's clever! So...Booth. Leftist or not?
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

23rd October 2009, 11:12 AM	#22
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Successful Assasins Booth...Confederate sympathiser Guiteau...Batsh*t crazy GOP office seeker Czolgosz ...anarchist influenced Oswald...Communist wannabe So, she's really not even half right...Booth and Guiteau (sp?) don't really fall into the modern leftist/rightest divide, and Guiteau really was completely "god is one of the voices in my head" nuts. I suppose it is arguable that an Anarchist is a "leftist" -- though there is a bit of the libertarian about it all. Oswald speaks for himself...he was a wanna-be commie, but certainly he doesn't fit neatly into an organized political actor...like the rest, a loner. Now, I know we can argue about the attempted assasinations as well, but of the successful ones, Coulter's statement that they were "all" lefties is demonstrably false -- and it is problematic even in situations like Oswald where you can put it into a marginally modern political context.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:17 AM	#23
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Cleon Hah! That's clever! So...Booth. Leftist or not? He was an actor. But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit?
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

23rd October 2009, 11:19 AM	#24
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Cicero He was an actor. But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit? Pretty facile don't you think?
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:20 AM	#25
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,610	Originally Posted by Cicero He was an actor. So is Alec Baldwin. How is that relevant? Quote: But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit? That's an interesting bit of free association, but not relevant. The question is about Booth, not about Hamilton or the Federalist Party. Was Booth a leftist or not?
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

23rd October 2009, 11:21 AM	#26
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,939	Originally Posted by Cicero Really? I mentioned the left-wing fruitcake assassins back in August. A.C. is definitely on to something. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...56#post5027356 Originally Posted by Cicero Left wing fruitcake assassins: Oswald Sirhan Sirhan Charles Guiteau Leon Czolgosz Arthur Bremer John Hinckley Can you explain why Charles Guiteau and John Hinckley are left wing?
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board. Last edited by Ladewig; 23rd October 2009 at 11:23 AM.

23rd October 2009, 11:22 AM	#27
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Cicero He was an actor. But beyond that, he shouted "Sic semper tyrannis" after he shot Lincoln. This is the state motto of Virginia as designed by Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton formed the Federalist Party that advocated a strong nationalistic government. Is that a left or right pursuit? BTW...you realize, of course, that presumeably, Hamilton would have been one of the non-slaveholding non-lefty founding fathers so admired by Beck in contrast to the slave-holder/lefties like Washington and Jefferson and Madision? But you argue that he would be a lefty non-slaveholder, so as predictable, Beck's pretty confused by it all.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:27 AM	#28
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,939	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 Oswald speaks for himself...he was a wanna-be commie, but certainly he doesn't fit neatly into an organized political actor...like the rest, a loner. Now, I know we can argue about the attempted assasinations as well, but of the successful ones, Coulter's statement that they were "all" lefties is demonstrably false -- and it is problematic even in situations like Oswald where you can put it into a marginally modern political context. Perhaps I am misunderstanding her position, but she seems to me to be saying that because L.H. Oswald had strong communist ties, he was a left winger.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

23rd October 2009, 11:33 AM	#29
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Ladewig Perhaps I am misunderstanding her position, but she seems to me to be saying that because L.H. Oswald had strong communist ties, he was a left winger. I think that is exactly right, and of the four successful killers, he's the only one that even begins to fit into the modern "left/right" political divide...though, again arguably, anarchist Leon Czolgosz also fits in that divide and would be "left" of today's center and certainly left of center in his own time. But, as pointed out, that makes Anne about 50% at best.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:40 AM	#30
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 Pretty facile don't you think? Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling?
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

23rd October 2009, 11:41 AM	#31
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,610	Originally Posted by Cicero Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling? Was Booth a Leftist or not?
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

23rd October 2009, 11:45 AM	#33
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Cicero Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling? No, the evidence is that this type of political pigeon-holing doesn't have much historical basis or utility and is ultimately silly, ergo Coulter's raison d'etre (sorry about hte spelling).
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:50 AM	#34
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Cicero Is the "evidence" that Booth was a conservative any more compelling? BTW...while I wouldn't apply modern lables to Booth, I would call him a "conservative" in that he was trying to "conserve/preserve" institutions that he believed were necessary for his enjoyment of the benefits of liberty, inlcuding and specifically property rights (though they were the right to own another human being) and he was angry at what he perceived as Lincoln's use of the ham-hand of government to take away both his liberties and his rights and he thought of Lincoln as not only a tyrant but also as a dangerous radical....
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

23rd October 2009, 11:54 AM	#35
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,746	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 I'm not sure why Squeaky Fromm, for example and a Manson follower -- would be considered a "liberal".... my recollection that while wearing the patina of the hippies, Manson was facinated by Hitler and the idea of generating a race war that would bring the blacks to power but eventually bring Manson to power where he would enslave the blacks. Anyway, big dose of crazy there, not quite sure how that kind of crazy fits into this silly left/right divide. It's the sex and drugs. Obviously a liberal.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

23rd October 2009, 12:12 PM	#36
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	In 1933, Giuseppe Zangara shot at President-elect FDR, but killed Chicago Mayor Anton Cermak instead. "Too many people are starving to death! "I don't hate Mr. Roosevelt personally... I hate all officials and everybody who is rich." "You give me electric chair. I no afraid of that chair! You one of capitalists. You is crook man too. Put me in electric chair. I no care!" Are Zangara's words the ideology of a conservative?
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861