Should I get vaccinated?

[Harpo]

This one could run and run...........

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

Nice argument technique, but i need clarification.

What specifically is "nonsense"

Specifically everything you posted.

Stop it. You are murdering people.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

Originally Posted by softstuff

I do wonder though if there will be some disease in the future, with a pretty risk free and readily available vaccine, that will quite simply wipe out the anti-vaxxers.

Not as long as they contain mercury, aluminum, hydrochloric acid, and formaldehyde

No fish for you, then.

ETA: oh, and as another poster was kind enough to point out, you forgot water.

Originally Posted by dhmo.org

You may not always recognize that you have been a victim of accidental DHMO overdose, so here are some signs and symptoms to look for. If you suspect Dihydrogen Monoxide overdose, or if you exhibit any of these symptoms, you should consult with your physician or medical practitioner. The data presented here is provided for informational purposes only, and should in no way be construed as medical advice of any sort.
Watch for these symptoms:

Originally Posted by dhmo.org

• Excessive sweating
• Excessive urination
• Bloated feeling
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Electrolyte imbalance
• Hyponatremia (serum hypotonicity)
• Dangerously imbalanced levels of ECF and ICF in the blood
• Degeneration of sodium homeostasis

You may not have heard about this before - that's just because it's being supressed by the authorities.

ETA2:

Originally Posted by Without Rights

Because car accidents and airborne viruses are the same.

The point went over your head, I see.

Saying that you don't need seat belts because you personally have never been in a car accident is exactly as irrational as saying that you don't need a flu shot because you personally have never gotten the flu. I have a friend of mine who once fell 9.8 metres. She survived the fall and is as fit as anyone. By your reasoning, falling 9.8 metres is perfectly safe. A single unverifiable anecdote, from a single anonymous person on an Internet forum, is utterly worthless in anything approaching a serious discussion.

[BenBurch]

BTW, I'm still not dead. And no more Autistic than I was before my flu shot.

[fls]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

No it hasn't

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreation...-factsheet.htm

Quote:

So the fact the CDC doesn't want to test effectiveness means I should trust them that it is effective? Interesting

No, the fact that the CDC wouldn't say anything so silly in the first place tells you that the reporters have got it wrong.

Quote:

Dr. Tom Jefferson, head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence. Not a non-expert reporter.

You are assuming that the reporters accurately provided the context for Dr. Jefferson's remarks - something that reporters hardly ever get right. And if they did accurately convey his remarks, then he has elected to forego reason for notoriety - not something that one wants in a reliable source of information. Details:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...uenza.php#more
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasur...the_atlant.php

Quote:

Because car accidents and airborne viruses are the same.

Nah. I have more control over car accidents, making seat belts even more useless.

Linda

[softstuff]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

BTW, I'm still not dead. And no more Autistic than I was before my flu shot.

I didn't even get a sore arm. Or mild flu like symptoms. Bit of an anticlimax really.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by softstuff

I didn't even get a sore arm. Or mild flu like symptoms. Bit of an anticlimax really.

My FEET are killing me though - from standing in line in the rain for 3 hours.

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by fls

Why? Do you think relevant information is not accessible to health care providers and other experts, or that they are not able to reason as effectively from that information as a couple of reporters?

All I said is that it raises a question in my mind. What does the information available to "health care providers and other experts" have to do with the inadequacy of my own understanding?

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

BTW, I'm still not dead. And no more Autistic than I was before my flu shot.

It's settled, then. Flu vaccine causes no injury to patients, other than a pain or soreness in the legs (N=1).

[fls]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

Not as long as they contain mercury, aluminum, hydrochloric acid, and formaldehyde

Dude...your body makes hydrochloric acid and formaldehyde. What are you gonna do to avoid that?

Linda

[fls]

Originally Posted by Brian-M

All I said is that it raises a question in my mind. What does the information available to "health care providers and other experts" have to do with the inadequacy of my own understanding?

It suggests that the recommendations from the experts which form the various vaccine committees in various countries, plus the health care workers who are familiar with the recommendations and the research, are questionable if they are coming to a different conclusion than two reporters.

Linda

[softstuff]

Originally Posted by fls

Dude...your body makes hydrochloric acid and formaldehyde. What are you gonna do to avoid that?

Linda

Maybe *that's* what the coffee enemas and salt baths were for.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

...
So the fact the CDC doesn't want to test effectiveness means I should trust them that it is effective? Interesting



Dr. Tom Jefferson, head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence. Not a non-expert reporter....

From http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasur..._sur_rebut.php :

Quote:

But if you insisted, picture this. Those long lines of anxious pregnant women and families with small children lining up for blocks to get the flu vaccine arrive at the head of the line and are handed an informed consent form saying that half of them won't get a real vaccine but only a dummy shot with buffer and they won't know which ones they got. I'd nominate the authors or Dr. Jefferson to be in charge of getting the consent forms signed, but I'm not sure they could be there. Most of us live on planet earth but only someone living on a planet orbiting slightly past Pluto would think a randomized double blind trial could be done with swine flu vaccination (I know Pluto is no longer a planet; so sue me).

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide

See also http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasur...the_atlant.php
and
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasur..._sur_rebut.php

and http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2040

Thank's for the links, but for the most part, they concentrate on how the article relates to swine flu...

Quote:

Go to the KSJ Tracker site and take a look at the cover of The Atlantic: Swine flu: Does the vaccine really work? That's not about seasonal flu strategy. And that's the nub of the issue.

As I pretty much ignored the swine-flu relevant parts of The Atlantic article, I don't have much interest in reading responses to them. The Atlantic article has had pretty much no effect on my opinions on swine flu vaccination, or pandemic flu in general.

My question was about the effect of vaccinations for seasonal flu on mortality.

Quote:

For the record, what he is saying about the uncertainties about flu vaccine efficacy in the over 65 age group isn't new.

This bit of information may not be new to the medical world, but it was new to me which is what interested me about the article. Far from dismissing my questioning of how effective seasonal flu vaccinations are on reducing mortality, the articles you linked to seem to agree with the article on that point...

Quote:

In a bit of medical irony, the more likely a patient is to need protection from the vaccine, the less likely they are to get a protective antibody response from the vaccine.

Quote:

But we rarely (never, ever, never) get vaccination rates at levels for herd immunity to kick in.

If those who are most likely to die from influenza are the least protected from the vaccine, and general vaccination levels are too low for herd immunity to kick in, then seasonal flu vaccinations cannot be expected to have as large an impact on mortality as most people would expect.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by fls

Dude...your body makes hydrochloric acid and formaldehyde. What are you gonna do to avoid that?

Linda

As others have pointed out, this seems a rather poor argument without some more details. My body also produces gastric acid, but I wouldn't want that injected in my bloodstream.

"You already have hydrochloric acid in your bloodstream" would be far more convincing.

Quote:

But if you insisted, picture this. Those long lines of anxious pregnant women and families with small children lining up for blocks to get the flu vaccine arrive at the head of the line and are handed an informed consent form saying that half of them won't get a real vaccine but only a dummy shot with buffer and they won't know which ones they got. I'd nominate the authors or Dr. Jefferson to be in charge of getting the consent forms signed, but I'm not sure they could be there. Most of us live on planet earth but only someone living on a planet orbiting slightly past Pluto would think a randomized double blind trial could be done with swine flu vaccination (I know Pluto is no longer a planet; so sue me).

Wow, I never knew medicines were tested after they were released to the open market. I also never knew this was how a double-blind trial was performed.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

So being against vaccination is dangerous and kills people.

Damn Straight.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by softstuff

Maybe *that's* what the coffee enemas and salt baths were for.

Salt baths "contain" toxic chlorine gas, the same way vaccines "contain" toxic Mercury.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

So being against vaccination is dangerous and kills people. Debate over.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Phrost]

I have to say that I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that people don't just outright, blindly trust the government when it says "here, take this..." provided there's a rational, evidenced-based public debate on the subject. Especially when lately, it seems like nearly everything is a goddamn crisis or emergency.

That said, I got the vaccine this weekend.

[inquiringone]

Originally Posted by softstuff

I live in a lovely area, but it's full of woo. Everything from organic coffee shops to crystal stores and tarot readers. Still, it makes the queue at the doctors surgery pretty short and you never have to wait long for decent books at the library

I'm curious. What state do you live in?

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

That's only because not many studies have been done on strictly thimerosal. But the main ingredient, mercury, has been tested plenty. When you add mercury with other ingredients in thimerosal it doesn't magically make mercury safe.

Mercury IS NOT an "ingredient" of thimerosal any more than chlorine is an "ingredient" of salt. Thimerosal is a mercury compound. Would you say that we could derive the toxicology of salt based on the toxicology of chlorine?

Thimerosoal primarily leaves the body just as it came in: as thimerosal with a very small portion either degrading or metabolizing to ethylmercury. Again:
Mercury and ethylmercury are very different. Charcoal and diamonds are very different molecules even though they are both composed of 100% carbon.

The toxicology of Mercury is irrelevant to this discussion. The only thing that is relevant is the toxicology of thimerosal and of ethylmercury. It is misinformed and/or disingenuous to say that vaccines "contain" mercury and then go on to describe the harms of mercury. And by the way, a tuna fish sandwich will expose you to methylmercury, a substance much more toxic than ethylmercury because it bio accumulates unlike ethylmercury and because it crosses the blood brain barrier, again unlike ethylmercury.

Would you eat a tuna fish sandwich if it protected you from the flu?

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally Posted by Brian-M

Thank's for the links, but for the most part, they concentrate on how the article relates to swine flu...

.....

Read this one again:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2040 ... did it even mention the Atlantic article?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

That definitely is a "NO BRAIN-er"

H1N1 vaccine contains thimerosal which is well documented has being toxic and hazardous, especially to children.

El-wrong-a-rino.

Originally Posted by CDC (part of the gubmit conspiracy)

Will the 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine contain thimerosal?
The 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines that FDA is licensing (approving) will be manufactured in several formulations. Some will come in multi-dose vials and will contain thimerosal as a preservative. Multi-dose vials of seasonal influenza vaccine also contain thimerosal to prevent potential contamination after the vial is opened.

Some vaccine manufacturers will be producing 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine in single-dose units, which will not require the use of thimerosal as a preservative. In addition, the live-attenuated version of the vaccine, which is administered intranasally (through the nose), is produced in single-units and will not contain thimerosal.

Originally Posted by Without Rights

Dr. Lawrence B. Palevsky, a pediatrician with the Northport (N.Y.) Wellness Center and president and co-founder of the Holistic Pediatric Association

As you know, the use of the word "holistic" automatically indicates the source is not valid.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Phrost

I have to say that I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that people don't just outright, blindly trust the government when it says "here, take this..." provided there's a rational, evidenced-based public debate on the subject. Especially when lately, it seems like nearly everything is a goddamn crisis or emergency.

That said, I got the vaccine this weekend.

And when people begin dying because of blind mistrust of government?
Thanks for reminding me why I am not a Libertarian.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by dudalb

And when people begin dying because of blind mistrust of government?
Thanks for reminding me why I am not a Libertarian.

They aren't ALL like that. Just most of them.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

El-wrong-a-rino.





As you know, the use of the word "holistic" automatically indicates the source is not valid.

90% of the time, yeah, it's a dead giveaway of quackery.

I wish I COULD get a H1N1 shot. Kaiser is strictly following the California State guidelines for the vaccine, and I am not in one of the lucky categories.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I wish I COULD get a H1N1 shot. Kaiser is strictly following the California State guidelines for the vaccine, and I am not in one of the lucky categories.

Yeah, I don't think I qualify either.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by dudalb

90% of the time, yeah, it's a dead giveaway of quackery.

I wish I COULD get a H1N1 shot. Kaiser is strictly following the California State guidelines for the vaccine, and I am not in one of the lucky categories.

They say they will loosen it up when more in the risk groups have gotten their vaccine. (My risk is asthma and frequent bronchitis, BTW.)

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

They aren't ALL like that. Just most of them.

I like the way so many of them are brave,heroic, John Galt type Libertarians who hate government...until they need help from the Government.
Look, I am not saying Government should blindly be believed.Statments from the Government should be regarded with some skepticism, just like you would statments from any organization. But to automatically put a higher mistrust level for a government statement then you would for any other organization is wrong.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

They say they will loosen it up when more in the risk groups have gotten their vaccine. (My risk is asthma and frequent bronchitis, BTW.)

I admit I am a little nervous because one of the ladies in my department has been out for two weeks with Swine Flu and just came back to work yesterday. Granted, it is proof that it is not some "Captain Trips" type killer virus, but still two weeks of misery is something I would rather avoid.

[Phrost]

Originally Posted by dudalb

And when people begin dying because of blind mistrust of government?

The phrase "Blind mistrust" is hilarious, especially on a skepticism forum.

Quote:

Thanks for reminding me why I am not a Libertarian.

Thanks for completely misreading what I wrote in an effort to rage against the evil libertarian machine.

Should I bother to clarify it for you?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Originally Posted by Without Rights

So the fact the CDC doesn't want to test effectiveness means I should trust them that it is effective? Interesting

Are you suggesting that the H1N1 vaccine hasn't been tested for efficacy?

An institution just down the street from me did some of that testing.

Originally Posted by Without Rights

So being against vaccination is dangerous and kills people.

Yes.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Are you suggesting that the H1N1 vaccine hasn't been tested for efficacy?

An institution just down the street from me did some of that testing.

Don't you realize that SLU is part of the cover up? It's a Catholic institution. Which means it is tied to the Vatican. Which is tied to Opus Dei, the Knights Templar and the Illuminati.

Geez, how gullible are you?

[ServiceSoon]

I'll pass like I always have.

Disclaimer: When everybody turns into zombies because of this influenza vaccine (evidence), don't try coming to eat my brain.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I like the way so many of them are brave,heroic, John Galt type Libertarians who hate government...until they need help from the Government.
Look, I am not saying Government should blindly be believed.Statments from the Government should be regarded with some skepticism, just like you would statments from any organization. But to automatically put a higher mistrust level for a government statement then you would for any other organization is wrong.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. Why do you think I am no longer a Libertarian?

[Stout]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Thimerosoal primarily leaves the body just as it came in: as thimerosal with a very small portion either degrading or metabolizing to ethylmercury. Again:
Mercury and ethylmercury are very different. Charcoal and diamonds are very different molecules even though they are both composed of 100% carbon.

The toxicology of Mercury is irrelevant to this discussion. The only thing that is relevant is the toxicology of thimerosal and of ethylmercury. It is misinformed and/or disingenuous to say that vaccines "contain" mercury and then go on to describe the harms of mercury. And by the way, a tuna fish sandwich will expose you to methylmercury, a substance much more toxic than ethylmercury because it bio accumulates unlike ethylmercury and because it crosses the blood brain barrier, again unlike ethylmercury.

Would you eat a tuna fish sandwich if it protected you from the flu?

Cheers for that. I did a little research ( OK a lot ) and came to the same conclusions with the ethyl/methyl thing and having to acknowledge that if I was going to "get worked up" over Hg, then I'm going to have to avoid seafood.

I'm unable to find anything on specifically injecting aluminium into the bloodstream though.

I'm well aware of just how much Al I can consume in a day, heck, i worked in a restaurant and in the five years that I worked there i saw Al pots go from something robust enough to use as a sledgehammer, to something just a little thicker than tinfoil. Not to mention that it's present in food additives.

The "problem" here seems to be in actually injecting Al into your bloodstream, like the good/bad squalene argument ( Mercola, IIRC ). Does it get eliminated the same way ingested Al does ?

[BenBurch]

The amount is so very tiny in any case that it will never harm you.

Aluminum reacts almost instantly with oxygen when it is free and becomes aluminum dioxide which is a solid and which will get filtered out of your blood pretty quick.

Aluminum is about the most reactive metal there is, and so it does not stay free long and its compounds are very hard for the body to break into anything else.

[BenBurch]

Remember folks, we are talking one ml of mostly water. (Less for children.) The total amount of anything dissolved in there, including viral particles, is very small; The fluid is still clear!

[Stout]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The amount is so very tiny in any case that it will never harm you.

Aluminum reacts almost instantly with oxygen when it is free and becomes aluminum dioxide which is a solid and which will get filtered out of your blood pretty quick.

Aluminum is about the most reactive metal there is, and so it does not stay free long and its compounds are very hard for the body to break into anything else.

Thanks, so it's the same sort of thing as the ethylmercury then, your body simply gets rid of it.

One a certain level, I can understand the fear of mercury and given the popular aluminium/alzheimer's discourse, I can follow the fear based reactions here to but one thing I've noticed conspicuously absent is any mention of fear of dietary minerals ( minerals ) prevalent in so many vitamin pills. You think this territory would be ripe for the same sort of, dare i say it ? CT thinking.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

I'm sure this came up before, but couldn't find the relevant thread.

Aside from all the conspiracies and scaremongering, I wonder about this question.

Swine flu seems no different than any other kind of flu, it just gets more airplay.
I am not impressed with the number of people killed by this virus.

From what I hear, there are some legitimate concerns about the quality of the vaccine. Some in the medical profession seem to think that it was rushed to market and can do damage in small minority of people.

I have two small children, so my question is actually if I should vaccinate them.

No. There's too many people on this planet, and vaccines are just making the population grow by making them thwart natural causes of death. Plus, I want the vaccine for my family, and they keep running out around here, so if you don't get them for your family, then maybe I'll finally get them for MINE!

The vaccine is also not rushed, it's the same as it is every year, just with the pandemic strain instead. It was tested, as usual too! They took no shortcuts.

The kind of damage it usually does is give people a sore arm, and the immune response can give you tummy ache. People who get the flu are far more likely to get GBS, but since the vaccine can cause it too, then that is all we hear about, but in far far less number of cases. People at risk of GBS are better off getting the vaccine instead of risking a higher chance of getting it from the flu, or even surgery.

Here are some links debunking your main concerns. I don't care if people get vaccinated or not, I just hate the lies about them.

Plus, less people in line means I don't have to wait as long, so no vaccine for YOU!!!

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=851

Pandemic flu is also killing more young and pregnant people since it infects further into lung tissue among other reasons:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0910083915.htm


There is an H1N1 strain in the vaccine every year, so the vaccine is very very tested:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs211/en/

Quote:

There are three types of seasonal influenza – A, B and C. Type A influenza viruses are further typed into subtypes according to different kinds and combinations of virus surface proteins. Among many subtypes of influenza A viruses, currently influenza A(H1N1) and A(H3N2) subtypes are circulating among humans. Influenza viruses circulate in every part of the world. Type C influenza cases occur much less frequently than A and B. That is why only influenza A and B viruses are included in seasonal influenza vaccines.