Mac vs PC

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Please explain. Are you suggesting there's something wrong with being particular about who one has as a customer?

If they do it by pricing products at a highly inflated rate, yes I think they are being douches.

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by dtugg

OK:


Intel Xeon Quad-Core W3520 2.66GHz: $320.75
ASUS P6T WS PRO LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Core i7 / Xeon Intel Motherboard: $299 (I have no idea what motherboard that Mac uses-they don't say- but this one is good)
Kingston 3GB (3 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM ECC Unbuffered DDR3 1333 Server Memory Model: $79.99
EVGA 512-P3-N954-TR GeForce 9500 GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card: $59.99 (the GT 120 that the Mac Pro has is just a rebranded one of these)
Western Digital Caviar Green WD6400AACS 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive: $59.99
SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA DVD Burner: $30.99
Antec EarthWatts EA650 650W Power Supply: $79.99 (I have no idea what kind of power supply the Mac Pro has so I just picked one).

Grand Total: $930.70

Plus Windows 7 and a decent case: $1140.68

However, if I were building a computer, I would choose an i7 processor/motherboard because they are virtually identical to the Xeons and a little cheaper. Plus, I am not sure if the Xeons are overclock able.

Hate to break it to you, but the Mac Pro uses the 5500 series of Xeon, not the 3500. Try again

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by SkeptiChick

Hate to break it to you, but the Mac Pro uses the 5500 series of Xeon, not the 3500. Try again

For the dual processor they use the 5500. For the single processor they use the 3500. I am correct.

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by dtugg

Do you think that "Mac owners" and "Apple" are synonymous?

You said "to" not "about". daSkeptic is a Mac owner, and you were talking crap TO him about Apple products.

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by dtugg

If they do it by pricing products at a highly inflated rate, yes I think they are being douches.

Why? Is there something inherently wrong with the practice?

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by SkeptiChick

You said "to" not "about". daSkeptic is a Mac owner, and you were talking crap TO him about Apple products.

Please...

I am not about to get into a semantics argument with you.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Why? Is there something inherently wrong with the practice?

I just think that purposely pricing a product at an outrageous rate so some people won't buy it is a douche move for a company that is supposedly consumer friendly. They are free to do as they please, and you are free to disagree, but there isn't really much more to be said.

[jimtron]

Originally Posted by dtugg

OK:


Intel Xeon Quad-Core W3520 2.66GHz: $320.75
ASUS P6T WS PRO LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Core i7 / Xeon Intel Motherboard: $299 (I have no idea what motherboard that Mac uses-they don't say- but this one is good)
Kingston 3GB (3 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM ECC Unbuffered DDR3 1333 Server Memory Model: $79.99
EVGA 512-P3-N954-TR GeForce 9500 GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card: $59.99 (the GT 120 that the Mac Pro has is just a rebranded one of these)
Western Digital Caviar Green WD6400AACS 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive: $59.99
SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA DVD Burner: $30.99
Antec EarthWatts EA650 650W Power Supply: $79.99 (I have no idea what kind of power supply the Mac Pro has so I just picked one).

Grand Total: $930.70

Plus Windows 7 and a decent case: $1140.68

However, if I were building a computer, I would choose an i7 processor/motherboard because they are virtually identical to the Xeons and a little cheaper. Plus, I am not sure if the Xeons are overclock able.

Thanks for posting this. Which Mac Pro are you comparing this to? Here's a link to the entry level, current model. I think you forgot:

I can't find the specs of that motherboard--does it have this stuff (eta: I see the case has what looks like 1 FW 400 port and 2 USB ports, but not the following) (eta2: I see the board has 8 USB ports; but still missing the 4 FW 800 ports):

• Four FireWire 800 ports (two on front panel, two on back panel)
• Five USB 2.0 ports (two on front panel, three on back panel)
• Two USB 2.0 ports on included keyboard
• Front-panel headphone minijack and internal speaker
• Optical digital audio input and output TOSLINK ports
• Analog stereo line-level input and output minijacks
• Two independent 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) interfaces with support for jumbo frames (eta: found them on your board)
• Bluetooth 2.1 + Enhanced Data Rate (EDR)

Also, what about high quality keyboard, mouse?

Here are the MP specs: http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/...family/mac_pro

eta: I don't think your burner is double layer; the MP's is.
eta 78: I think your board has 2 PCI slots; the MP has 3:

• One PCI Express 2.0 x16 slot
• Two PCI Express 2.0 x4 slots

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by dtugg

I just think that purposely pricing a product at an outrageous rate so some people won't buy it is a douche move for a company that is supposedly consumer friendly.

Other than your personal opinion, do you have anything else to support the notion that this is not a legitimate reason for having high prices?

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by dtugg

For the dual processor they use the 5500. For the single processor they use the 3500. I am correct.

Indeed. You are correct.

But Jimtron's post does address a bunch of things that you don't seem to include in your list.

The motherboard you're using only has a single firewire 400 port (IEEE 1394a), not the 4 firewire 800 (IEEE 1394b).

I can't tell about the audio from the specs yours list.

And the case does not have

Quote:

Four 3.5-inch cable-free, direct-attach hard drive bays with built-in independent 3Gb/s Serial ATA channels; four internal hard drive carriers included

. Honestly, I'd be curious if you could even find that anywhere for retail purchase outside of Apple...

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by jimtron

Thanks for posting this. Which Mac Pro are you comparing this to? Here's a link to the entry level, current model. I think you forgot: ...

Let us not forget matters of quality. Are we comparing identical components or only similar ones? What about product grades? Manufacturers often have varying levels of quality in their product runs -- Gateway has been known to use lower-grade components in order to cut cost. And then there's quality of workmanship in the integration and assembly. Are we expecting the average consumer in their home or office to be meeting the same standards as a purpose-built factory?

[jimtron]

I think people often overlook stuff like FW800 and optical audio ports when making comparisons. I'm looking for a comparison with a PC that has all of the same features. Also keep in mind, that it's going to take a considerable amount of time to buy and assemble all of these parts. To some that would be a fun project; to others a waste of time and maybe major headache. Also, though the parts will be under warranty, there's no warranty and support for the whole system (what if the components don't all get along perfectly?).

Also; longevity and resale value of Macs; probably longer/higher.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by jimtron

Thanks for posting this. Which Mac Pro are you comparing this to? Here's a link to the entry level, current model. I think you forgot:

I can't find the specs of that motherboard--does it have this stuff:

That would be a combination of motherboard and case.

(The specifications are on an tab called specifications)

From what I can see this combo has:

• Four FireWire 800 ports (two on front panel, two on back panel) [/quote]
  
  Two. One on front, one on back.
  
  
  Quote:
• Five USB 2.0 ports (two on front panel, three on back panel)

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Let us not forget matters of quality. Are we comparing identical components or only similar ones? What about product grades? Manufacturers often have varying levels of quality in their product runs -- Gateway has been known to use lower-grade components in order to cut cost. And then there's quality of workmanship in the integration and assembly. Are we expecting the average consumer in their home or office to be meeting the same standards as a purpose-built factory?

I would compare identical ones if I could (I did where possible). That is, if Apple would make it easy to find out exactly what components they use in their computers.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by jimtron

I think people often overlook stuff like FW800 and optical audio ports when making comparisons. I'm looking for a comparison with a PC that has all of the same features. Also keep in mind, that it's going to take a considerable amount of time to buy and assemble all of these parts. To some that would be a fun project; to others a waste of time and maybe major headache. Also, though the parts will be under warranty, there's no warranty and support for the whole system (what if the components don't all get along perfectly?).

Also; longevity and resale value of Macs; probably longer/higher.

If you don't mind if I use a Core i7 (they are really pretty much exactly the same as the Xeons) I'll find one as similar as possible.

ETA: Also it would really take a long time to put together, and I already put together the list.

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by dtugg

Under S/PDIF Out, it says: 1 x Optical, 1 x Coaxial. I am not quite sure what that means.

This means one TOSLINK port and one RCA port, both for output.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Other than your personal opinion, do you have anything else to support the notion that this is not a legitimate reason for having high prices?

No.

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by jimtron

I think people often overlook stuff like FW800 and optical audio ports when making comparisons. I'm looking for a comparison with a PC that has all of the same features. Also keep in mind, that it's going to take a considerable amount of time to buy and assemble all of these parts. To some that would be a fun project; to others a waste of time and maybe major headache. Also, though the parts will be under warranty, there's no warranty and support for the whole system (what if the components don't all get along perfectly?).

Indeed. I definitely agree with what you're saying here. It echos some of what I said earlier.

Personally, I don't overlook things like FW800 (because we do actually use these things over here). I'm sure there are plenty of people that do, but those are not generally the people who would be purchasing a Mac Pro. Those people would generally be perfectly content with the base model iMac, if not a mini.

The time spent searching for the parts is, yes, considerable. Look at how much time we all, in a concerted manner, have spent just trying to figure it out. Give that task to someone less experienced, with less knowledge about computer hardware, and less knowledge about components suppliers... It becomes a gargantuan undertaking.

[jimtron]

Ah ha, now I see the specs for the motherboard.

Quote:

Four FireWire 800 ports (two on front panel, two on back panel)

Quote:

Two. One on front, one on back.

Those are 400, not 800. To recap, I think you need to add:

• high quality keyboard and mouse
• four FW 800 ports (IEEE 1394-b)
• optical in AND out (don't think the motherboard has both)
• Bluetooth
• double layer optical drive
• might be missing some stuff

eta: more MP audio specs:
Built-in stereo speakers with two internal 17-watt high-efficiency amplifiers
Built-in microphone
Optical digital audio output/headphone out
Optical digital audio input/audio line in

eta: support:
Every Mac comes with complimentary telephone technical support within 90 days of your Mac purchase. In addition, a limited hardware warranty covers your Mac and all included accessories against defects for one year from the original purchase date.
Genius Bar — Available at every Apple Retail Store, it’s the place for free advice, insight, and friendly, hands-on technical support for your Mac, iPod, iPhone, or Apple TV.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by jimtron

Ah ha, now I see the specs for the motherboard.

Those are 400, not 800. To recap, I think you need to add:

• high quality keyboard and mouse
• four FW 800 ports (IEEE 1394-b)
• optical in AND out (don't think the motherboard has both)
• Bluetooth
• double layer optical drive
• might be missing some stuff

eta: more MP audio specs:
Built-in stereo speakers with two internal 17-watt high-efficiency amplifiers
Built-in microphone
Optical digital audio output/headphone out
Optical digital audio input/audio line in

You really think all that's worth $1360? I am sure that if I looked around more, I could find a case/mobo combo that has all of those but I think that I have proved my point.

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by dtugg

You really think all that's worth $1360. I am sure that if I looked around more, I could find a case/mobo combo that has all of those but I think that I have proved my point.

On the contrary, even if you found all of the exact same parts you still haven't addressed the issues of quality or time.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

On the contrary, even if you found all of the exact same parts you still haven't addressed the issues of quality or time.

Quality, probably the same, but hard to say since Apple doesn't disclose exactly what components they use. Time, wouldn't take me more than a couple hours to put the computer together.

[jimtron]

Originally Posted by dtugg

You really think all that's worth $1360? I am sure that if I looked around more, I could find a case/mobo combo that has all of those but I think that I have proved my point.

I don't know, but I keep hearing folks say that Macs are much more expensive for comparable PCs. I did some Googling and I found some articles that showed there was a wash, or that Macs were actually cheaper. Maybe you're right, but I still haven't seen a comparison where the PC had the same (or better) features for significantly less money. I honestly don't know how much it would cost to add the other stuff.

[jimtron]

Is the new Macbook expensive?
http://technologizer.com/2008/10/19/...ook-expensive/

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by jimtron

I don't know, but I keep hearing folks say that Macs are much more expensive for comparable PCs. I did some Googling and I found some articles that showed there was a wash, or that Macs were actually cheaper. Maybe you're right, but I still haven't seen a comparison where the PC had the same (or better) features for significantly less money. I honestly don't know how much it would cost to add the other stuff.

Then there are other costs, besides just the machine itself to consider.

I too have yet to see an equal comparison between a Mac and a PC where the PC was actually cheaper.

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by dtugg

Quality, probably the same, but hard to say since Apple doesn't disclose exactly what components they use.

What about quality of workmanship in the assembly and testing of the unit? Can you meet or exceed the standards of a factory?

Quote:

Time, wouldn't take me more than a couple hours to put the computer together.

What about the time spent ordering the parts and waiting for them to arrive? What if one or more parts are DOA? What if something breaks while things are being put together? How much time is that going to add? How much is that time worth?

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Most games are designed to run on PC's and I don't feel like running an operating system on an operating system.
Plus, I generally don't have the money to buy a full new computer and I do have the money to occasionally upgrade whatever happens to be the slowest/worst bit of my PC.
Hence, I use PC's.

But apart from that? To me its like the difference between McDonalds and Burgerking. Sans serif or Times new roman. Both types are perfectly functional in what they do. I've worked on Mac's that were a total disaster area with crashing programs and errors every hour. And PC's that worked like a charm. And vise versa.
The disaster computers always happened to be the ones that are shared at work where everyone can install anything. Turns out Mac's and PC's are equally incapable of handling idiots that download whatever their spam gives them.

As for cost, I guess that depends on what deals are available in your local stores at the time of purchase.
Personally I've never cared about what my computer looks like so that's never a factor for me. I look at the stuff on the screen, not the frame. But I'll admit that I am a total klutz when it comes to esthetics

[PingOfPong]

I never owned a Mac. I used a friend's Mac one time and within 1 second I was wondering where the right mouse button was. The two-button mouse has a really nice paradigm for GUI's. You left click for for the most common action (usually selection) and right click to see a menu of more available commands. Mac users claim that their system is better but I would miss the right button for a long time until I got over it.

Also, I can't remember the last time that my Vista crashed. Certain MS programs which I use still crash occasionally but they don't take down the whole OS with it. Document recovery has been working too. It's been a long time since I've screamed expletives about Bill Gates because I've lost an hour of work.

It used to be that I put up with MS windows' instability because all the software I wanted to use required a PC. Now I wouldn't switch unless my PC broke and someone gave me a free Mac.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

The disaster computers always happened to be the ones that are shared at work where everyone can install anything. Turns out Mac's and PC's are equally incapable of handling idiots that download whatever their spam gives them.

That is so true. From my experience when people complain about a Mac it is the ones were people will install, uninstall, install, uninstall crap without performing the routine maintanence; in fact it is the same with PC's.

You don't have to defrag a Mac, but that task is replaced with verifying and repairing disk permissions. Generally a lot of Mac users don't have this problem, but power users have to repair things a lot.

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Most games are designed to run on PC's and I don't feel like running an operating system on an operating system.

Just wanted to focus on this. By using Parallels, we not only run the mac OS, but we run windows, solaris, and freeBSD all on one machine, without having to partition anything, or deal with dual boot, or anything like that. Click an icon on the screen, and boom, there's your other OS. No muss, no fuss.

While that's probably not very useful for the average consumer, for a company that deals with cross platform custom software development, it's a bit of icing on the cake.

And btw? Windows runs even smoother under Parallels on OSX than it did on a dedicated windows machine.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by PingOfPong

I never owned a Mac. I used a friend's Mac one time and within 1 second I was wondering where the right mouse button was. The two-button mouse has a really nice paradigm for GUI's. You left click for for the most common action (usually selection) and right click to see a menu of more available commands. Mac users claim that their system is better but I would miss the right button for a long time until I got over it.

You should try using one from the 21st century.

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by PingOfPong

I never owned a Mac. I used a friend's Mac one time and within 1 second I was wondering where the right mouse button was. The two-button mouse has a really nice paradigm for GUI's. You left click for for the most common action (usually selection) and right click to see a menu of more available commands. Mac users claim that their system is better but I would miss the right button for a long time until I got over it.

You... can go out and get a mouse with more than one button...

*looks at her mouse, with two normal buttons, a scroll wheel, and two side buttons*

[jimtron]

Shipping is free from the Apple store; I'm assuming that newegg is going to tag shipping onto all of those parts. Also, I just checked. You can get the MacPro from Amazon for $200/off with free shipping. This is typical discount from Amazon; I've bought a few Macs from them and this is usually the case. So we're talking $2299 and no shipping charge. There are other stores that typically discount Mac stuff a bit, including LA Computer, Club Mac, and Macmall.

[PingOfPong]

Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol

You should try using one from the 21st century.

It was early 21st century. I also saw a recent Mac the other day that had one button. I did a quick search to see what the word is on two-button mice for Mac. Apparently Mac supports it out of the box. However, is it common for Mac software to support contextual menus available through a right-click or is it generally built around a one-button paradigm?

[SkeptiChick]

Originally Posted by PingOfPong

It was early 21st century. I also saw a recent Mac the other day that had one button. I did a quick search to see what the word is on two-button mice for Mac. Apparently Mac supports it out of the box. However, is it common for Mac software to support contextual menus available through a right-click or is it generally built around a one-button paradigm?

Yes... Macs completely and totally support all right-click functionality that you're used to.

It also supports scroll wheels, and extra buttons on mice. In fact, you can, just like on a regular PC, even reprogram which mouse button does what.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by PingOfPong

It was early 21st century. I also saw a recent Mac the other day that had one button. I did a quick search to see what the word is on two-button mice for Mac. Apparently Mac supports it out of the box. However, is it common for Mac software to support contextual menus available through a right-click or is it generally built around a one-button paradigm?

I was just joking with the comment, but to answer your question right-click is used with every program I have encountered on OS X, but you can also CRTL-Click to have the same effect; which is the old way. Still a user can set the computer to either or.

What you probably saw was actually the Mighty Mouse, which looks like a single button mouse; but is actually a two button.

[jimtron]

And speaking of mice, the Mac Pro comes with a wireless, multi-touch mouse. So if anyone wants to finish the comparison, please factor that in.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

What about quality of workmanship in the assembly and testing of the unit? Can you meet or exceed the standards of a factory?

I think I can put a computer together as well as some guy in a factory in China.

Quote:

What about the time spent ordering the parts

About 15 minutes.

Quote:

and waiting for them to arrive?

Same as if I ordered a Mac.

Quote:

What if one or more parts are DOA? What if something breaks while things are being put together?

Possible but unlikely.

Quote:

How much time is that going to add? How much is that time worth?

Certainly not $1000+.

[dtugg]

Like I said earlier, I'll show a comparison of a computer built to order. But it will have a Core i7 processor instead of a Xeon. But it really doesn't matter because they are virtually identical. I just don't want to waste my time only to have someone say that they are not the same processor.

That fine, jimtron?

[jimtron]

Quote:

Certainly not $1000+

That hasn't been demonstrated yet. After you add shipping charges and the missing features, I'm pretty sure you'll be well over $1299 ($1000 less than street price of MP).