Mac vs PC - Page 5

a_unique_person · 30th October 2009, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by dtugg

I just think that Macs are overpriced. Especially the Mac Pro, which is the only one that can really be upgraded. There is just no reason for that computer to cost $2500. For that money I could build (or just buy) a computer that is much, much better. But then again, it wouldn't have the pretty case.

Have you seen some of those PC cases out there now? Come on, Mac's got nothing on them. How many Macs have you ever seen with neon lights on them? Huh? How many?

Darat · 30th October 2009, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by jsiv

http://i38.tinypic.com/2iu4b2w.jpg

Now that's a blast of nostalgia for me... CU Amiga & Rise of the Robot... ah fond memories of ECTS and hype.

a_unique_person · 30th October 2009, 06:02 AM

Try this.

No white at all.

JoeyDonuts · 30th October 2009, 06:33 AM

I'd be worried about it sprouting feet and trying to kill me.

Darat · 30th October 2009, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Try this.

No white at all.

Please put spoiler tags around spoilers for the next series of Dr Who!

HarryKeogh · 30th October 2009, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Try this.

No white at all.

It's upside-down. The specs say it has a 0.00001" footprint.

WildCat · 30th October 2009, 08:58 AM

Digital audio I/O used to be important to me when I was attaching a DAT player to the computer, but now it's much easier to just record the audio from DAT directly onto a portable flash card digital audio recorder since I don't tie up my computer for 2 hours recording digital audio on it in real time. Just put it on the flash card and then it takes a minute or so to tranfer the data from the flash card to the PC.

At any rate, if you need it you can get a sound card with digital (both coaxial and toslink) s/pdif I/O for pretty cheap these days. A far cry from 10 years ago when I paid $500 for a digital sound card.

And most new motherboards have more USB and firewire ports than you could ever need. Hell, I even have 2 USB 2.0 ports on my monitor!

uruk · 30th October 2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Joeydonuts: I'd be worried about it sprouting feet and trying to kill me.

Uh.. then don't buy this case:

JoeyDonuts · 30th October 2009, 01:22 PM

If there is any justice in this universe, please tell me that CD loading slot in Bender's teeth is actually functional.

daSkeptic · 30th October 2009, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Not upset. More like gently mocking. Most PC user I know do not care about PC vs Mac war. But in my (albeit limited) experience , mac user take pride in their Mac, as well as a few high end PC user. Most of the rest just use it and DO NOT CARE (PC or Mac). We can see an example here with daskeptic thinking that PC user are upset to not be the target of a market artificially made expansive.

I'm not exactly sure where you think I was in error. If you re-read what I wrote, you will notice it was an observation exclusively about people I've known. It said nothing about you or anyone else here. Unless you happen to be familiar with those about whom I was writing, you are not in any position to determine whether it was upset or gentle mocking.

For the record, raised voices and harsh words generally signal that one is upset.

Ducky · 30th October 2009, 06:12 PM

uruk · 30th October 2009, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

If there is any justice in this universe, please tell me that CD loading slot in Bender's teeth is actually functional.

Yep. http://www.desktopped.com/2009/09/it...mouthed-robot/

a_unique_person · 30th October 2009, 09:08 PM

They are both just OS/s. The OS is dead. All it has to do is launch applications, something that was mastered years ago.

daSkeptic · 30th October 2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They are both just OS/s. The OS is dead. All it has to do is launch applications, something that was mastered years ago.

In what context are you making this argument? General consumer computing?

dc1971 · 31st October 2009, 02:06 AM

I want to apologize for throwing the previous thread off topic. My bad! I won't let that happen again.

Anyway, hmmmm, what's to say here? Well... I can tell you that I learned everything about computers and the use of a GUI based OS on a Mac and I didn't really see any fascination with the PC until about a few years ago. I've always found the Mac to be more user friendly than the PC and as far as multimedia props goes to the Mac specifically in the area of graphic design, music production and video production. There's only one suite of software for music production that I use on the PC and that is the Sony Production Suite (i.e. Sound Forge, Acid, Vegas Video, and CD Architect). It's particularly excellent software for Post Production and Mastering.

Then there is the sister OS, Linux! I am rather impressed with the latest stable release of Ubuntu Linux especially it's functioning on an AMD system. I find the graphics to be superb, setting up the Samba file system and the Apache web server system is a breeze and the fact that the OS is open source and you are free to tweak or totally reconstruct the code is great if you know what you're doing. However, if you're not so technically inclined it's still a great operating system for the price ($0.00)!

DC (Dick Cheney was not here)

PixyMisa · 31st October 2009, 05:40 AM

I'm seriously considering buying the new 27" iMac and using it as a monitor.

a_unique_person · 31st October 2009, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

In what context are you making this argument? General consumer computing?

Mac Vs PC is the context.

Whiplash · 31st October 2009, 07:49 AM

With all due respect Skeptichick, you are talking out of your USB port.

I've not seen so much typical PC bashing, PC nightmare myths and strawmen, and Apple talking points in ages. And some furious backpeddling and semantic games.

I've been a PC user since my first homebuilt PC which was a 286-12mhz with 1mb of ram. I've owned virtually every type of board or chip since then, over dozens of different individual systems, and I've never had anywhere near the nightmares described in this thread, even going back to the start. Not even close. It strikes me as "PEBKAC" more than anything else.

Seriously, your anecdotal experiences with PC's are far from the norm. Further than you'd clearly be willing to accept or recognize. It's one of those things where anyone who knows the reality can't help but read the things you are saying and think "oh great, another blind Mac zealot".

I don't mean to be insulting.. but your attitude has been irritating. You speak authoritatively, but clearly speaking nonsense and talking points. And perpetuating the Mac vs PC elitist nonsense that has never been good for anyone.

You love your Mac. Great for you. Enjoy it. Don't be angry that so many more people don't. There is a good reason, despite all strawmen you Mac types like to throw up as to why. And the way Mac people bend over backwards to rationalize how great the Mac is over the PC, and how terrible the PC is, demonstrate there are some personal issues involved. Just who are you seeking to convince? Don't bother trying to convince happy and stable PC users, it'll never happen. Accept the role Apple plays. That's about all it's ever going to be.

Klimax · 31st October 2009, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by SkeptiChick

Printer was an HP, color printer, scanner, fax, all in one sort of deal.

OfficeJet K80?

Know and the drivers weren't great.

Quote:

Olympus still digital camera. Required drivers, or wouldn't be recognized. Drivers happened to be bundled with pointless and stupid photo editing software (when I had Corel, so didn't need that junk), and it was pretty impossible to separate the two. Same camera required no drivers at all on my Mac.

Quite strange.(Never owned one,so cannot comment)

Quote:

Was wireless. I wasn't privvy to the solutions for all cases, but in at least a few there was some sort of permissions problem that seemed to have been a setting that no one was even aware of existing (even the guys at microsoft who were called when the IT department came up blank). I do wish I remembered what that setting was... There was no explanation as to why it affected some computers but not all (or even the majority), and they only found the solution by giving up and randomly enabling and de-enabling each and every setting in series.

Pity no longer known...

Quote:

It was a serious pain in the behind... No fun to diagnose at all. Thinking back on it, there probably was some sort of problem with the motherboard, but that wreck is long gone now, so no way to check into it.

Understand.

Pity,this is more about emotions then anything like techincal aspect. But then price is still high enough to stop any consideration anyway. (BTW similar reasons are against consoles,but I would like to have one of each... to take it apart)

dc1971 · 31st October 2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Now that's a blast of nostalgia for me... CU Amiga & Rise of the Robot... ah fond memories of ECTS and hype.

The Amiga and the Atari 1040 STe were the bomb back in the day! Mac and PC got nothin' on them!

DC

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Mac Vs PC is the context.

I think you misunderstood my question. You argued that operating systems were essentially just application launchers, implying there is little concern given to other OS characteristics. While this may be true in some areas of computing (e.g. general consumer use), it is not true for all. Some fields are very concerned with things like process scheduling algorithms or memory management or the network stack. The fact is both Macs and PCs are used for a wide variety of purposes including simple Internet terminals, gaming, office productivity, media creation, software development, scientific analysis, industrial process control .... the list goes on.

So I ask again, in what context (i.e. area of computing) are you making your argument? Were you thinking only of general consumer uses or were you thinking of other things as well?

SkeptiChick · 31st October 2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Klimax

OfficeJet K80?

Know and the drivers weren't great.

OfficeJet 6310 actually. One part of the mystery was that the original disc for the drivers (and required software -- which wasn't required on a Mac) wouldn't read fully in the window's machine. But it could read other CD's DVD's just fine. Ended up having to rip an image of the driver disc with the Mac, and burn it onto a new CD for the windows machine to read it...

Quote:

Quite strange.(Never owned one,so cannot comment)

Yes, quite.

Quote:

Pity no longer known...

I'm sure the IT department at that office still knows. I just don't remember, as it's not my job to, and I don't use windows machines anymore.

Quote:

Pity,this is more about emotions then anything like techincal aspect. But then price is still high enough to stop any consideration anyway. (BTW similar reasons are against consoles,but I would like to have one of each... to take it apart)

I'd love to be able to have a discussion about purely the technical differences between Apple computers and other computer manufacturers, or even home-built computers. I'd love to have that conversation for purely academic purposes, as I find the subject interesting in and of itself, no matter which side of the fence I might happen to be on. The problem is (as you might have noticed from the exchange with jimtron, dtugg, and myself) there are simply so many variables, and so many differences between what Apple offers, and what the rest of the PC world offers, it's hard to find an equal footing to do the necessary comparisons on.

Oh, and we've taken apart the mini's. Man stuff is really packed into those things!

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by SkeptiChick

OfficeJet 6310 actually. One part of the mystery was that the original disc for the drivers (and required software -- which wasn't required on a Mac) wouldn't read fully in the window's machine. But it could read other CD's DVD's just fine. Ended up having to rip an image of the driver disc with the Mac, and burn it onto a new CD for the windows machine to read it...

I was present for this particular situation. It did happen how she says. Why it happened that way ... well ... there are many possibilities, not all of which are necessarily the fault of Microsoft.

One thing I did find rather interesting was how the installation instructions were dozens of pages long for Windows and only half a page for Mac. Both ultimately resulted in running the installer program on the disc -- this was in fact the entirety of the Mac instructions. But whereas the Windows version mandatorily installed a bunch of stuff, the Mac version simply popped up a dialog box instructing the user to add the printer in System Preferences like they would do for any other device. Software was present but optional. Again, there are many possibilities as to why the Windows installation was more complex.

Now it must be stated that this all occurred in the pre-Vista days. Looking at the latest version of the manual on HP's website, it seems the installation instructions have changed and Windows setup is much simpler than it used to be.

Normal Dude · 31st October 2009, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Now it must be stated that this all occurred in the pre-Vista days. Looking at the latest version of the manual on HP's website, it seems the installation instructions have changed and Windows setup is much simpler than it used to be.

Windows setup for practically any common device:

1. Chuck out manual (Most of it is warning you not to kill yourself with it anyways).
2. Install software.
3. Click off optional software when prompted.
4. Install device.

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Normal Dude

Windows setup for practically any common device:

1. Chuck out manual (Most of it is warning you not to kill yourself with it anyways).
2. Install software.
3. Click off optional software when prompted.
4. Install device.

All of the hardware I've ever installed on a Mac involved only step 4, but YMMV.

GreNME · 31st October 2009, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

I was present for this particular situation. It did happen how she says. Why it happened that way ... well ... there are many possibilities, not all of which are necessarily the fault of Microsoft.

One thing I did find rather interesting was how the installation instructions were dozens of pages long for Windows and only half a page for Mac. Both ultimately resulted in running the installer program on the disc -- this was in fact the entirety of the Mac instructions. But whereas the Windows version mandatorily installed a bunch of stuff, the Mac version simply popped up a dialog box instructing the user to add the printer in System Preferences like they would do for any other device. Software was present but optional. Again, there are many possibilities as to why the Windows installation was more complex.

Now it must be stated that this all occurred in the pre-Vista days. Looking at the latest version of the manual on HP's website, it seems the installation instructions have changed and Windows setup is much simpler than it used to be.

You can thank HP for this scenario, by the way. They are downright adamant about shipping with their printers this huge, bloated installer that also puts on the computer a "control panel" for the printer than runs constantly (and slows down performance), sits in the system tray, and is persistent as far as getting it removed easily. Now, technically, you can download and install just the driver if you want, so HP can argue it's not forcing their customers to use their ridiculous software in order to use their printers.

It isn't much different on the Mac, by the way-- their stupid installers for the Mac drivers install a process that you can see by checking your running system processes (by habit, I use top from the terminal) that also persistently runs, which on my MBP is a huge no-no as far as runaway processes and battery consumption.

Which brings me to a question that maybe you more long-time Mac people can answer: why doesn't Apple provide a program uninstaller with its operating system? While I understand the complaints about the Windows uninstaller (which often fails to remove persistent files/registry settings), at least on Windows there is an uninstaller. Sometimes I'm half inclined to put together a project to write a "universal uninstaller" that has a version for each major platform and that does about the same thing. Unfortunately, the other half that is disinclined and lazy continues to win out and suggests using third-party tools already available.

a_unique_person · 31st October 2009, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

I think you misunderstood my question. You argued that operating systems were essentially just application launchers, implying there is little concern given to other OS characteristics. While this may be true in some areas of computing (e.g. general consumer use), it is not true for all. Some fields are very concerned with things like process scheduling algorithms or memory management or the network stack. The fact is both Macs and PCs are used for a wide variety of purposes including simple Internet terminals, gaming, office productivity, media creation, software development, scientific analysis, industrial process control .... the list goes on.

So I ask again, in what context (i.e. area of computing) are you making your argument? Were you thinking only of general consumer uses or were you thinking of other things as well?

They are mostly used for very basic purposes, that is, launching applications. That they are also used for other purposes is immaterial for the basic argument.

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

It isn't much different on the Mac, by the way-- their stupid installers for the Mac drivers install a process that you can see by checking your running system processes (by habit, I use top from the terminal) that also persistently runs, which on my MBP is a huge no-no as far as runaway processes and battery consumption.

As I alluded to above, my experience with adding hardware to a Mac (the OfficeJet included) involved no driver installation, at least nothing as overt as I'm accustomed to on Windows. No unusual processes appeared either. Plug it in, maybe tweak a couple of things in System Preferences, done.

Quote:

Which brings me to a question that maybe you more long-time Mac people can answer: why doesn't Apple provide a program uninstaller with its operating system?

Excellent question!

From what I can tell, this is the result of yet another culture clash. As you mentioned earlier, the standard Apple approach to organizing software is the bundle (a folder with all binaries and dependencies packaged together). As such, the usual method of "uninstalling" is to simply drag the bundle to the trash. Some vendors, however, do not follow this method and instead use a scripted installer as is common on Windows. This often results in stuff being installed all over the place rather than in one nice, neat folder.

Why isn't there an uninstaller? My guess is that Apple simply doesn't expect most user applications to be installed this way, and in my opinion there's no reason they should be. Think about it ... does Yahoo Messenger really need anything other than a place to put the executable and associated resources? Does it really need to modify anything outside of the specified target folder? Some applications may have a legitimate need to effect wider system changes, but in my experience they are few and far between.

dtugg · 31st October 2009, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Normal Dude

Windows setup for practically any common device:

1. Chuck out manual (Most of it is warning you not to kill yourself with it anyways).
2. Install software.
3. Click off optional software when prompted.
4. Install device.

Nowadays it's:

1) Plug in device. (If necessary, Windows will automatically search Internet for drivers and install.)

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They are mostly used for very basic purposes, that is, launching applications. That they are also used for other purposes is immaterial for the basic argument.

It sounds like what you're trying to say is that there is a part of the computer-using world for which application launching is the primary value of an operating system, and that this group of people constitutes the majority. Is that right?

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

Nowadays it's:

1) Plug in device. (If necessary, Windows will automatically search Internet for drivers and install.)

In my experience the driver part is unnecessary on a Mac, and I gather that for modern Windows systems it is less necessary than it used to be. Both platforms have benefitted from hardware vendors adopting standard interfaces for which support is part of the standard OS package.

Terry · 31st October 2009, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They are mostly used for very basic purposes, that is, launching applications. That they are also used for other purposes is immaterial for the basic argument.

umm... I would have thought that the most fundamental and necessary purpose of an operating system is to virtualize the hardware, so that your applications can just go "open me a file" and not care what brand of hard drive you have, or how big it is, or if it's SCSI or SATA or USB or FireWire or...

GreNME · 31st October 2009, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

As I alluded to above, my experience with adding hardware to a Mac (the OfficeJet included) involved no driver installation, at least nothing as overt as I'm accustomed to on Windows. No unusual processes appeared either. Plug it in, maybe tweak a couple of things in System Preferences, done.

No, I understand what you're saying, and that's fine as long as a driver is already present on the OS. As soon as a model your computer is unfamiliar with is plugged in, you'll need to install a driver as well. This was an early challenge to XP as well as Vista, since hardware driver pre-packaging support was scarce (though, on the other hand, greater in number than prior releases).

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Originally Posted by GreNME

Which brings me to a question that maybe you more long-time Mac people can answer: why doesn't Apple provide a program uninstaller with its operating system?

Excellent question!

From what I can tell, this is the result of yet another culture clash. As you mentioned earlier, the standard Apple approach to organizing software is the bundle (a folder with all binaries and dependencies packaged together). As such, the usual method of "uninstalling" is to simply drag the bundle to the trash. Some vendors, however, do not follow this method and instead use a scripted installer as is common on Windows. This often results in stuff being installed all over the place rather than in one nice, neat folder.

Why isn't there an uninstaller? My guess is that Apple simply doesn't expect most user applications to be installed this way, and in my opinion there's no reason they should be. Think about it ... does Yahoo Messenger really need anything other than a place to put the executable and associated resources? Does it really need to modify anything outside of the specified target folder? Some applications may have a legitimate need to effect wider system changes, but in my experience they are few and far between.

This is a problem Apple users are going to face increasing amounts of problems as their numbers increase and the number of applications that can be run on them increases. Removing an app from your Application folder doesn't uninstall the user-specific application information & settings. Programs installed in Windows rarely make system-wide settings changes either, but parts that remain in those systems are in the registry and user folders. In essence, the problem of persistency of installed settings exists in both MacOS and Windows, and it's only more evident in Windows due to that whole "90+% market share" thing I mentioned earlier. I will say that OS X is smart about where those settings are stored, and that Windows has gotten far better since Vista of keeping those settings sequestered to user-land, but it's a problem on both systems anyway.

There are 3rd-party offerings out there to handle the junk on both systems, but it would be nice if both provided this capability in the operating system itself.

a_unique_person · 31st October 2009, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Terry

umm... I would have thought that the most fundamental and necessary purpose of an operating system is to virtualize the hardware, so that your applications can just go "open me a file" and not care what brand of hard drive you have, or how big it is, or if it's SCSI or SATA or USB or FireWire or...

That is what it has to be able to do to run applications, but if that was all they did they wouldn't be very useful to most people.

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

... but if that was all they did they wouldn't be very useful to most people.

You may have a point with this, but it is not what you originally said. Just because operating systems are irrelevant to a certain portion of users (the majority even) does not mean they are irrelevant to all, which is what you originally argued.

daSkeptic · 31st October 2009, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Removing an app from your Application folder doesn't uninstall the user-specific application information & settings.

Good point. Such data is generally so small and insignificant (as well as being neatly packed away, which you pointed out) that I generally ignore it.

Terry · 31st October 2009, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

That is what it has to be able to do to run applications, but if that was all they did they wouldn't be very useful to most people.

Except... you wouldn't be able to run your applications without it. Making it more than a bit useful in my mind.

GreNME · 31st October 2009, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

Good point. Such data is generally so small and insignificant (as well as being neatly packed away, which you pointed out) that I generally ignore it.

This is so on Windows as well-- normally as text-readable files or registry entries, as opposed to config and .plist files on a Mac-- but such things can tend to build up. That is actually one of the big complaints by Windows users. The other location of note is temp directories, and both systems require manual input to clean them out (or to set them to auto-clean, as by default the setting is off).

Even though both handle the specifics somewhat differently, the principle of the flaw is the same on both.

KingofMadCows · 1st November 2009, 01:20 AM

What I don't like about Macs is that there's just too little customization.

If I build a PC, I can choose between an AMD build and an Intel build. I can get a 500 watt Antec PSU or an OCZ 80 plus gold certified 1,000 watt psu. I can get a GTS 250 or a Radeon 5870.

Plus I'm not sure about the quality of some of the Apple parts. I know for sure that the quality of the Gigabyte motherboard I have is excellent. I don't know how good the Mac mobo is. I don't even know the efficiency of Apple psu's.

Dr. Lao · 1st November 2009, 01:27 AM

OK, here is the deal, I have a PC quad core Intel 9400 with 8 gig of memory, a nice video card and Windows 7. I built it all by my self, with parts easily obtained. I got the operating system via a $30 Microsoft offer for students (used my niece's account).

For what I paid for the parts, I would have been able to buy half a Mac. It does everything I need graphically, for games (no flight sim for mac), for connectivity and productivity. Its not a slick looking machine, but it works very very well and its quite fast. And when I want to upgrade it, its a matter of taking out the screw driver and plugging stuff in.

I have zero desire to spend more money than necessary to buy a machine that does the same thing, but makes me look trendy.

30th October 2009, 04:51 AM	#161
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,949	Originally Posted by dtugg I just think that Macs are overpriced. Especially the Mac Pro, which is the only one that can really be upgraded. There is just no reason for that computer to cost $2500. For that money I could build (or just buy) a computer that is much, much better. But then again, it wouldn't have the pretty case. Have you seen some of those PC cases out there now? Come on, Mac's got nothing on them. How many Macs have you ever seen with neon lights on them? Huh? How many?
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

30th October 2009, 05:48 AM	#162
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by jsiv http://i38.tinypic.com/2iu4b2w.jpg Now that's a blast of nostalgia for me... CU Amiga & Rise of the Robot... ah fond memories of ECTS and hype.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

30th October 2009, 06:02 AM	#163
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,949	Try this. No white at all.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

30th October 2009, 06:33 AM	#164
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,110	I'd be worried about it sprouting feet and trying to kill me.
	__________________ "You are nothing ( dont forget that)" - LONGTABBER PE "Sit down, Joseph." - UnsecuredCoins "What an obsessed nerd." - Morrigan

30th October 2009, 06:37 AM	#165
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Try this. No white at all. Please put spoiler tags around spoilers for the next series of Dr Who!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

30th October 2009, 06:38 AM	#166
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 10,245	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Try this. No white at all. It's upside-down. The specs say it has a 0.00001" footprint.

30th October 2009, 08:58 AM	#167
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 23,599	Digital audio I/O used to be important to me when I was attaching a DAT player to the computer, but now it's much easier to just record the audio from DAT directly onto a portable flash card digital audio recorder since I don't tie up my computer for 2 hours recording digital audio on it in real time. Just put it on the flash card and then it takes a minute or so to tranfer the data from the flash card to the PC. At any rate, if you need it you can get a sound card with digital (both coaxial and toslink) s/pdif I/O for pretty cheap these days. A far cry from 10 years ago when I paid $500 for a digital sound card. And most new motherboards have more USB and firewire ports than you could ever need. Hell, I even have 2 USB 2.0 ports on my monitor!
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

30th October 2009, 01:22 PM	#169
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,110	If there is any justice in this universe, please tell me that CD loading slot in Bender's teeth is actually functional.
	__________________ "You are nothing ( dont forget that)" - LONGTABBER PE "Sit down, Joseph." - UnsecuredCoins "What an obsessed nerd." - Morrigan

30th October 2009, 04:13 PM	#170
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by Aepervius Not upset. More like gently mocking. Most PC user I know do not care about PC vs Mac war. But in my (albeit limited) experience , mac user take pride in their Mac, as well as a few high end PC user. Most of the rest just use it and DO NOT CARE (PC or Mac). We can see an example here with daskeptic thinking that PC user are upset to not be the target of a market artificially made expansive. I'm not exactly sure where you think I was in error. If you re-read what I wrote, you will notice it was an observation exclusively about people I've known. It said nothing about you or anyone else here. Unless you happen to be familiar with those about whom I was writing, you are not in any position to determine whether it was upset or gentle mocking. For the record, raised voices and harsh words generally signal that one is upset.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

30th October 2009, 06:12 PM	#171
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,342

30th October 2009, 07:58 PM	#172
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,343	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts If there is any justice in this universe, please tell me that CD loading slot in Bender's teeth is actually functional. Yep. http://www.desktopped.com/2009/09/it...mouthed-robot/
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Homer Simpson

30th October 2009, 09:08 PM	#173
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,949	They are both just OS/s. The OS is dead. All it has to do is launch applications, something that was mastered years ago.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

30th October 2009, 09:32 PM	#174
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by a_unique_person They are both just OS/s. The OS is dead. All it has to do is launch applications, something that was mastered years ago. In what context are you making this argument? General consumer computing?
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

31st October 2009, 02:06 AM	#175
dc1971 Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 110	I want to apologize for throwing the previous thread off topic. My bad! I won't let that happen again. Anyway, hmmmm, what's to say here? Well... I can tell you that I learned everything about computers and the use of a GUI based OS on a Mac and I didn't really see any fascination with the PC until about a few years ago. I've always found the Mac to be more user friendly than the PC and as far as multimedia props goes to the Mac specifically in the area of graphic design, music production and video production. There's only one suite of software for music production that I use on the PC and that is the Sony Production Suite (i.e. Sound Forge, Acid, Vegas Video, and CD Architect). It's particularly excellent software for Post Production and Mastering. Then there is the sister OS, Linux! I am rather impressed with the latest stable release of Ubuntu Linux especially it's functioning on an AMD system. I find the graphics to be superb, setting up the Samba file system and the Apache web server system is a breeze and the fact that the OS is open source and you are free to tweak or totally reconstruct the code is great if you know what you're doing. However, if you're not so technically inclined it's still a great operating system for the price ($0.00)! DC (Dick Cheney was not here)
dc1971 Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 110

31st October 2009, 05:40 AM	#176
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7,228	I'm seriously considering buying the new 27" iMac and using it as a monitor.
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

31st October 2009, 07:02 AM	#177
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,949	Originally Posted by daSkeptic In what context are you making this argument? General consumer computing? Mac Vs PC is the context.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

31st October 2009, 07:49 AM	#178
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 3,014	With all due respect Skeptichick, you are talking out of your USB port. I've not seen so much typical PC bashing, PC nightmare myths and strawmen, and Apple talking points in ages. And some furious backpeddling and semantic games. I've been a PC user since my first homebuilt PC which was a 286-12mhz with 1mb of ram. I've owned virtually every type of board or chip since then, over dozens of different individual systems, and I've never had anywhere near the nightmares described in this thread, even going back to the start. Not even close. It strikes me as "PEBKAC" more than anything else. Seriously, your anecdotal experiences with PC's are far from the norm. Further than you'd clearly be willing to accept or recognize. It's one of those things where anyone who knows the reality can't help but read the things you are saying and think "oh great, another blind Mac zealot". I don't mean to be insulting.. but your attitude has been irritating. You speak authoritatively, but clearly speaking nonsense and talking points. And perpetuating the Mac vs PC elitist nonsense that has never been good for anyone. You love your Mac. Great for you. Enjoy it. Don't be angry that so many more people don't. There is a good reason, despite all strawmen you Mac types like to throw up as to why. And the way Mac people bend over backwards to rationalize how great the Mac is over the PC, and how terrible the PC is, demonstrate there are some personal issues involved. Just who are you seeking to convince? Don't bother trying to convince happy and stable PC users, it'll never happen. Accept the role Apple plays. That's about all it's ever going to be.
	__________________ "Look, I'm a tenth generation A.I. hologramic computer.. I'm not your Mum" "Ken Buddah... a smile, two bangs, and a religion" "A little hard work never killed anyone... but I'm not taking any chances" -Jim Last edited by Whiplash; 31st October 2009 at 07:56 AM.

31st October 2009, 10:33 AM	#179
Klimax NWO cyborg Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 3,587	Originally Posted by SkeptiChick Printer was an HP, color printer, scanner, fax, all in one sort of deal. OfficeJet K80? Know and the drivers weren't great. Quote: Olympus still digital camera. Required drivers, or wouldn't be recognized. Drivers happened to be bundled with pointless and stupid photo editing software (when I had Corel, so didn't need that junk), and it was pretty impossible to separate the two. Same camera required no drivers at all on my Mac. Quite strange.(Never owned one,so cannot comment) Quote: Was wireless. I wasn't privvy to the solutions for all cases, but in at least a few there was some sort of permissions problem that seemed to have been a setting that no one was even aware of existing (even the guys at microsoft who were called when the IT department came up blank). I do wish I remembered what that setting was... There was no explanation as to why it affected some computers but not all (or even the majority), and they only found the solution by giving up and randomly enabling and de-enabling each and every setting in series. Pity no longer known... Quote: It was a serious pain in the behind... No fun to diagnose at all. Thinking back on it, there probably was some sort of problem with the motherboard, but that wreck is long gone now, so no way to check into it. Understand. Pity,this is more about emotions then anything like techincal aspect. But then price is still high enough to stop any consideration anyway. (BTW similar reasons are against consoles,but I would like to have one of each... to take it apart)
	__________________ ModBorg NWO cyborg:I am destructive force of unspeakable might.

31st October 2009, 10:53 AM	#180
dc1971 Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 110	Originally Posted by Darat Now that's a blast of nostalgia for me... CU Amiga & Rise of the Robot... ah fond memories of ECTS and hype. The Amiga and the Atari 1040 STe were the bomb back in the day! Mac and PC got nothin' on them! DC
dc1971 Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 110

31st October 2009, 03:56 PM	#181
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Mac Vs PC is the context. I think you misunderstood my question. You argued that operating systems were essentially just application launchers, implying there is little concern given to other OS characteristics. While this may be true in some areas of computing (e.g. general consumer use), it is not true for all. Some fields are very concerned with things like process scheduling algorithms or memory management or the network stack. The fact is both Macs and PCs are used for a wide variety of purposes including simple Internet terminals, gaming, office productivity, media creation, software development, scientific analysis, industrial process control .... the list goes on. So I ask again, in what context (i.e. area of computing) are you making your argument? Were you thinking only of general consumer uses or were you thinking of other things as well?
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

31st October 2009, 04:14 PM	#182
SkeptiChick Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 1,546	Originally Posted by Klimax OfficeJet K80? Know and the drivers weren't great. OfficeJet 6310 actually. One part of the mystery was that the original disc for the drivers (and required software -- which wasn't required on a Mac) wouldn't read fully in the window's machine. But it could read other CD's DVD's just fine. Ended up having to rip an image of the driver disc with the Mac, and burn it onto a new CD for the windows machine to read it... Quote: Quite strange.(Never owned one,so cannot comment) Yes, quite. Quote: Pity no longer known... I'm sure the IT department at that office still knows. I just don't remember, as it's not my job to, and I don't use windows machines anymore. Quote: Pity,this is more about emotions then anything like techincal aspect. But then price is still high enough to stop any consideration anyway. (BTW similar reasons are against consoles,but I would like to have one of each... to take it apart) I'd love to be able to have a discussion about purely the technical differences between Apple computers and other computer manufacturers, or even home-built computers. I'd love to have that conversation for purely academic purposes, as I find the subject interesting in and of itself, no matter which side of the fence I might happen to be on. The problem is (as you might have noticed from the exchange with jimtron, dtugg, and myself) there are simply so many variables, and so many differences between what Apple offers, and what the rest of the PC world offers, it's hard to find an equal footing to do the necessary comparisons on. Oh, and we've taken apart the mini's. Man stuff is really packed into those things!
	__________________ Nimari (80), Guild Leader of <Empirical>, Horde, Madoran(US) Happily welcoming skeptic recruits

31st October 2009, 05:01 PM	#183
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by SkeptiChick OfficeJet 6310 actually. One part of the mystery was that the original disc for the drivers (and required software -- which wasn't required on a Mac) wouldn't read fully in the window's machine. But it could read other CD's DVD's just fine. Ended up having to rip an image of the driver disc with the Mac, and burn it onto a new CD for the windows machine to read it... I was present for this particular situation. It did happen how she says. Why it happened that way ... well ... there are many possibilities, not all of which are necessarily the fault of Microsoft. One thing I did find rather interesting was how the installation instructions were dozens of pages long for Windows and only half a page for Mac. Both ultimately resulted in running the installer program on the disc -- this was in fact the entirety of the Mac instructions. But whereas the Windows version mandatorily installed a bunch of stuff, the Mac version simply popped up a dialog box instructing the user to add the printer in System Preferences like they would do for any other device. Software was present but optional. Again, there are many possibilities as to why the Windows installation was more complex. Now it must be stated that this all occurred in the pre-Vista days. Looking at the latest version of the manual on HP's website, it seems the installation instructions have changed and Windows setup is much simpler than it used to be.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC. Last edited by daSkeptic; 31st October 2009 at 05:05 PM.

31st October 2009, 05:23 PM	#184
Normal Dude Space Shuttle Door Gunner Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: W/ The Evil Council Posts: 2,488	Originally Posted by daSkeptic Now it must be stated that this all occurred in the pre-Vista days. Looking at the latest version of the manual on HP's website, it seems the installation instructions have changed and Windows setup is much simpler than it used to be. Windows setup for practically any common device: 1. Chuck out manual (Most of it is warning you not to kill yourself with it anyways). 2. Install software. 3. Click off optional software when prompted. 4. Install device.
	__________________ Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics. "At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity

31st October 2009, 06:01 PM	#185
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by Normal Dude Windows setup for practically any common device: 1. Chuck out manual (Most of it is warning you not to kill yourself with it anyways). 2. Install software. 3. Click off optional software when prompted. 4. Install device. All of the hardware I've ever installed on a Mac involved only step 4, but YMMV.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

31st October 2009, 06:58 PM	#186
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by daSkeptic I was present for this particular situation. It did happen how she says. Why it happened that way ... well ... there are many possibilities, not all of which are necessarily the fault of Microsoft. One thing I did find rather interesting was how the installation instructions were dozens of pages long for Windows and only half a page for Mac. Both ultimately resulted in running the installer program on the disc -- this was in fact the entirety of the Mac instructions. But whereas the Windows version mandatorily installed a bunch of stuff, the Mac version simply popped up a dialog box instructing the user to add the printer in System Preferences like they would do for any other device. Software was present but optional. Again, there are many possibilities as to why the Windows installation was more complex. Now it must be stated that this all occurred in the pre-Vista days. Looking at the latest version of the manual on HP's website, it seems the installation instructions have changed and Windows setup is much simpler than it used to be. You can thank HP for this scenario, by the way. They are downright adamant about shipping with their printers this huge, bloated installer that also puts on the computer a "control panel" for the printer than runs constantly (and slows down performance), sits in the system tray, and is persistent as far as getting it removed easily. Now, technically, you can download and install just the driver if you want, so HP can argue it's not forcing their customers to use their ridiculous software in order to use their printers. It isn't much different on the Mac, by the way-- their stupid installers for the Mac drivers install a process that you can see by checking your running system processes (by habit, I use top from the terminal) that also persistently runs, which on my MBP is a huge no-no as far as runaway processes and battery consumption. Which brings me to a question that maybe you more long-time Mac people can answer: why doesn't Apple provide a program uninstaller with its operating system? While I understand the complaints about the Windows uninstaller (which often fails to remove persistent files/registry settings), at least on Windows there is an uninstaller. Sometimes I'm half inclined to put together a project to write a "universal uninstaller" that has a version for each major platform and that does about the same thing. Unfortunately, the other half that is disinclined and lazy continues to win out and suggests using third-party tools already available.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

31st October 2009, 08:24 PM	#187
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,949	Originally Posted by daSkeptic I think you misunderstood my question. You argued that operating systems were essentially just application launchers, implying there is little concern given to other OS characteristics. While this may be true in some areas of computing (e.g. general consumer use), it is not true for all. Some fields are very concerned with things like process scheduling algorithms or memory management or the network stack. The fact is both Macs and PCs are used for a wide variety of purposes including simple Internet terminals, gaming, office productivity, media creation, software development, scientific analysis, industrial process control .... the list goes on. So I ask again, in what context (i.e. area of computing) are you making your argument? Were you thinking only of general consumer uses or were you thinking of other things as well? They are mostly used for very basic purposes, that is, launching applications. That they are also used for other purposes is immaterial for the basic argument.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

31st October 2009, 08:30 PM	#188
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by GreNME It isn't much different on the Mac, by the way-- their stupid installers for the Mac drivers install a process that you can see by checking your running system processes (by habit, I use top from the terminal) that also persistently runs, which on my MBP is a huge no-no as far as runaway processes and battery consumption. As I alluded to above, my experience with adding hardware to a Mac (the OfficeJet included) involved no driver installation, at least nothing as overt as I'm accustomed to on Windows. No unusual processes appeared either. Plug it in, maybe tweak a couple of things in System Preferences, done. Quote: Which brings me to a question that maybe you more long-time Mac people can answer: why doesn't Apple provide a program uninstaller with its operating system? Excellent question! From what I can tell, this is the result of yet another culture clash. As you mentioned earlier, the standard Apple approach to organizing software is the bundle (a folder with all binaries and dependencies packaged together). As such, the usual method of "uninstalling" is to simply drag the bundle to the trash. Some vendors, however, do not follow this method and instead use a scripted installer as is common on Windows. This often results in stuff being installed all over the place rather than in one nice, neat folder. Why isn't there an uninstaller? My guess is that Apple simply doesn't expect most user applications to be installed this way, and in my opinion there's no reason they should be. Think about it ... does Yahoo Messenger really need anything other than a place to put the executable and associated resources? Does it really need to modify anything outside of the specified target folder? Some applications may have a legitimate need to effect wider system changes, but in my experience they are few and far between.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

31st October 2009, 08:42 PM	#189
dtugg Pseudoskeptic Government Loyalist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 3,160	Originally Posted by Normal Dude Windows setup for practically any common device: 1. Chuck out manual (Most of it is warning you not to kill yourself with it anyways). 2. Install software. 3. Click off optional software when prompted. 4. Install device. Nowadays it's: 1) Plug in device. (If necessary, Windows will automatically search Internet for drivers and install.)

31st October 2009, 08:55 PM	#190
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by a_unique_person They are mostly used for very basic purposes, that is, launching applications. That they are also used for other purposes is immaterial for the basic argument. It sounds like what you're trying to say is that there is a part of the computer-using world for which application launching is the primary value of an operating system, and that this group of people constitutes the majority. Is that right?
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC. Last edited by daSkeptic; 31st October 2009 at 09:00 PM.

31st October 2009, 09:00 PM	#191
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by dtugg Nowadays it's: 1) Plug in device. (If necessary, Windows will automatically search Internet for drivers and install.) In my experience the driver part is unnecessary on a Mac, and I gather that for modern Windows systems it is less necessary than it used to be. Both platforms have benefitted from hardware vendors adopting standard interfaces for which support is part of the standard OS package.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC. Last edited by daSkeptic; 31st October 2009 at 09:02 PM.

31st October 2009, 09:00 PM	#192
Terry Zeitgeist-impaired Technical Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: logged in to the server Posts: 6,310	Originally Posted by a_unique_person They are mostly used for very basic purposes, that is, launching applications. That they are also used for other purposes is immaterial for the basic argument. umm... I would have thought that the most fundamental and necessary purpose of an operating system is to virtualize the hardware, so that your applications can just go "open me a file" and not care what brand of hard drive you have, or how big it is, or if it's SCSI or SATA or USB or FireWire or...

31st October 2009, 09:27 PM	#193
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by daSkeptic As I alluded to above, my experience with adding hardware to a Mac (the OfficeJet included) involved no driver installation, at least nothing as overt as I'm accustomed to on Windows. No unusual processes appeared either. Plug it in, maybe tweak a couple of things in System Preferences, done. No, I understand what you're saying, and that's fine as long as a driver is already present on the OS. As soon as a model your computer is unfamiliar with is plugged in, you'll need to install a driver as well. This was an early challenge to XP as well as Vista, since hardware driver pre-packaging support was scarce (though, on the other hand, greater in number than prior releases). Originally Posted by daSkeptic Originally Posted by GreNME Which brings me to a question that maybe you more long-time Mac people can answer: why doesn't Apple provide a program uninstaller with its operating system? Excellent question! From what I can tell, this is the result of yet another culture clash. As you mentioned earlier, the standard Apple approach to organizing software is the bundle (a folder with all binaries and dependencies packaged together). As such, the usual method of "uninstalling" is to simply drag the bundle to the trash. Some vendors, however, do not follow this method and instead use a scripted installer as is common on Windows. This often results in stuff being installed all over the place rather than in one nice, neat folder. Why isn't there an uninstaller? My guess is that Apple simply doesn't expect most user applications to be installed this way, and in my opinion there's no reason they should be. Think about it ... does Yahoo Messenger really need anything other than a place to put the executable and associated resources? Does it really need to modify anything outside of the specified target folder? Some applications may have a legitimate need to effect wider system changes, but in my experience they are few and far between. This is a problem Apple users are going to face increasing amounts of problems as their numbers increase and the number of applications that can be run on them increases. Removing an app from your Application folder doesn't uninstall the user-specific application information & settings. Programs installed in Windows rarely make system-wide settings changes either, but parts that remain in those systems are in the registry and user folders. In essence, the problem of persistency of installed settings exists in both MacOS and Windows, and it's only more evident in Windows due to that whole "90+% market share" thing I mentioned earlier. I will say that OS X is smart about where those settings are stored, and that Windows has gotten far better since Vista of keeping those settings sequestered to user-land, but it's a problem on both systems anyway. There are 3rd-party offerings out there to handle the junk on both systems, but it would be nice if both provided this capability in the operating system itself.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

31st October 2009, 09:30 PM	#194
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,949	Originally Posted by Terry umm... I would have thought that the most fundamental and necessary purpose of an operating system is to virtualize the hardware, so that your applications can just go "open me a file" and not care what brand of hard drive you have, or how big it is, or if it's SCSI or SATA or USB or FireWire or... That is what it has to be able to do to run applications, but if that was all they did they wouldn't be very useful to most people.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

31st October 2009, 10:52 PM	#195
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by a_unique_person ... but if that was all they did they wouldn't be very useful to most people. You may have a point with this, but it is not what you originally said. Just because operating systems are irrelevant to a certain portion of users (the majority even) does not mean they are irrelevant to all, which is what you originally argued.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

31st October 2009, 11:01 PM	#196
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by GreNME Removing an app from your Application folder doesn't uninstall the user-specific application information & settings. Good point. Such data is generally so small and insignificant (as well as being neatly packed away, which you pointed out) that I generally ignore it.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.