Mac vs PC - Page 7

uruk · 2nd November 2009, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

You are quite correct that this is an area where Macs have not seen a great deal of use. SGI was the big name for a long time, but once things started becoming cheaper it shifted to Windows PCs. There's not really any technological reason to exclude Macs, the market just shifted to where the bulk of the business was.

Absolutly true. With cards like the Quadro 4800 becoming available for the Mac and highend 3D animation software like Maya, Houdini and XSI porting to the Mac, we will see more and more effects houses putting Macs into the pipeline.

Presently, effects houses render farms are usually bladeserver type PCs running Linux. Autodesk and other software producers ported thier software and renderers to Linux a long time ago.

I don't know if you will ever see Mac render farms seeing as the mantra for render farms is cheap, cheap ,cheap. Try writing the check to buy 3000 seats of OSX. Linux cost of $0. per CPU is just right.

Autodesk also owns Smoke, Flint and Luster which is used by just about every major film/video studio for editing and processing. The exception being Nuke which was developed by Digital Domain and distributed by The Foundry.

Autodesk pretty much has the video/film and effects industry by the short hairs. Which has more than a few effects houses concerned.

Darat · 2nd November 2009, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

While it in no way refutes your core argument, I did find this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product...or_mac_us.html

Interesting blurb on that page:

....With Boot Camp, users can experience the full features and accelerated performance of native Quadro 3D graphics when running professional Windows applications. ....

In other-words -use Windows!

Modified · 2nd November 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Why?

From my point of view, to make application development easier. I develop a multi-platform application for which some launchers and other "glue" are implemented using shell scripts for UNIX/Linus/OS X. On Windows, the machinery isn't there to do the same with bat files, so applications are required. Development and maintenance for those bits is much heavier on Windows. For our own use in development and testing, we use shell scripts running under Cygwin, but we can't require our users to install it.

Modified · 2nd November 2009, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

There are similar equivalents to be installed with powershell. It's only a weakness if all you know is unixy bash scripting and are stuck on a windows server.

But PowerShell wasn't standard until Windows 7 (assuming it is there).

tyr_13 · 2nd November 2009, 05:16 PM

Haven't been following this thread on the assumption that I've seen most of the arguments before. I don't hate Mac products besides the I-Pod. I hate many of the aspects of Mac as a company, but not their computers.

However what is Apple's answer to these? That would be this.

SOOOOO innovative! Cutting edge!

uruk · 2nd November 2009, 06:11 PM

Yea. Apple's condition in the PC market place is due to Steve Jobs.

GreNME · 2nd November 2009, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

You are quite correct that this is an area where Macs have not seen a great deal of use. SGI was the big name for a long time, but once things started becoming cheaper it shifted to Windows PCs. There's not really any technological reason to exclude Macs, the market just shifted to where the bulk of the business was.

Side note: the shift hasn't been solely Windows on the PC for 3D CG work. Linux has some notable movies under its belt-- the Star Wars prequels, the LOTR movies, and I believe the Shrek films if I'm not mistaken, just to name a few.

-----

Originally Posted by Modified

From my point of view, to make application development easier. I develop a multi-platform application for which some launchers and other "glue" are implemented using shell scripts for UNIX/Linus/OS X. On Windows, the machinery isn't there to do the same with bat files, so applications are required. Development and maintenance for those bits is much heavier on Windows. For our own use in development and testing, we use shell scripts running under Cygwin, but we can't require our users to install it.

From most of the rest of the developing world's point of view, application development is doing quite fine. Choosing arbitrary reasons to support your assertion makes no more sense than saying that Apple computers are stupid because they only have one mouse button. Windows has several scripting shells to choose from, they're just not command-line-based. If you want to access the hardware on Windows through scripting-- learn to utilize the Windows Script Host and stop demanding that a square peg go through a round hole.

No offense meant, but you should attempt to preach that "application development" speech to the Linux crowd first, since package management is a clustersomething depending on distribution, which is simply a microcosm of platform differences anyway. Macs have pretty tight package installation, but as I pointed out the lack of an uninstaller leaves a huge hole in its elegance factor.

daSkeptic · 2nd November 2009, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

... stop demanding that a square peg go through a round hole.

I think this right here sums things up quite well.

arthwollipot · 2nd November 2009, 07:01 PM

Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do.

jimtron · 2nd November 2009, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do.

I don't know of anything quite like Garageband for Windows, but here's an open source multi-track app (for Windows, OS X, and Linux):
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Cheap or free audio apps for Mac or Windows:
http://www.ncsu.edu/it/multimedia/audiotools.html

I know you said Windows, but here's a decent looking, free app for Linux (and OS X):
http://ardour.org/

eta: shareware Windows app that looks kind of GB-like:
http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/index.htm

GreNME · 2nd November 2009, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do.

Acid Music Studio. Nuff said. That's essentially the program GB emulates anyway, since the program hasn't really evolved much since ACID 4.5 back when Sonic Foundry was the company making it (Sony bought Sonic Foundry and re-branded the software). If the $50 is too rich for your blood, it seems Sony offers a limited 'ACID Express' version for a free registration.

jimtron · 2nd November 2009, 07:32 PM

Someone dedicated a Web site to their search for a Windows version of GB:

http://garagebandforwindows.wordpress.com/

GreNME · 2nd November 2009, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by jimtron

Someone dedicated a Web site to their search for a Windows version of GB:

http://garagebandforwindows.wordpress.com/

From that site on Acid:

Quote:

Bottom line for MIDI. I think it will fit the bill. If you need MIDI support, Sony Acid Music Studio 7 can be your GarageBand for Windows.

Acid predates OS X, let alone GarageBand. Sonic Foundry practically wrote the book on loop-based mixing of tracks on the computer.

ETA: for reference, I was looping MIDI, a drum machine, my keyboard, bass, guitar, and mic all together in ACID ten years ago.

tyr_13 · 2nd November 2009, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Side note: the shift hasn't been solely Windows on the PC for 3D CG work. Linux has some notable movies under its belt-- the Star Wars prequels, the LOTR movies, and I believe the Shrek films if I'm not mistaken, just to name a few.

We played the third Shrek movie at work all the time, and according to the credits, all rendering services and computers were provided by HP.

GreNME · 2nd November 2009, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

We played the third Shrek movie at work all the time, and according to the credits, all rendering services and computers were provided by HP.

HP machines, but the operating system was supposedly a Linux build. The ILM guys had custom builds for their rendering, and WETA apparently followed similar steps.

tyr_13 · 2nd November 2009, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

HP machines, but the operating system was supposedly a Linux build. The ILM guys had custom builds for their rendering, and WETA apparently followed similar steps.

That figures.

arthwollipot · 2nd November 2009, 10:23 PM

Thanks peoples, for you recommendations. I'll be looking into them.

Reeco · 3rd November 2009, 02:08 AM

Is it just me or are Mac people more anti-PC than PC people are anti-mac?

Darat · 3rd November 2009, 02:16 AM

What do you expect given the class of the people who buy Macs....

daSkeptic · 3rd November 2009, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Reeco

Is it just me or are Mac people more anti-PC than PC people are anti-mac?

I'd say it's about equal.

arthwollipot · 3rd November 2009, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

I'd say it's about equal.

Actually, I disagree. It seems to be my limited experience that Mac fanatics (and note that I don't believe that all Mac users can be described as "Mac fanatics") tend to be more critical of what they perceive as the PC's faults. PC fanatics (and ditto) tend to simply complain that Macs are too expensive and not as customisable.

YMMV.

daSkeptic · 3rd November 2009, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Actually, I disagree. It seems to be my limited experience that Mac fanatics (and note that I don't believe that all Mac users can be described as "Mac fanatics") tend to be more critical of what they perceive as the PC's faults. PC fanatics (and ditto) tend to simply complain that Macs are too expensive and not as customisable.

I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products).

arthwollipot · 3rd November 2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products).

That's a fair point.

Reeco · 3rd November 2009, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products).

Would you say that one side is more accurate in its criticisms than the other? I've always used PCs, but will admit that if were ever fortunate enough to have a dedicated music production studio it would be Mac based, purely because that's the way the majority of the pros do it, and therefore I would (probably) have a richer support community to tap into. I wouldn't really care what the anti-Mac crowd say. But I do wonder if people neck-deep in Mac culture would ever swith to PC, based on the level and breadth of the horror stories they must hear all the time.

GreNME · 3rd November 2009, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Actually, I disagree. It seems to be my limited experience that Mac fanatics (and note that I don't believe that all Mac users can be described as "Mac fanatics") tend to be more critical of what they perceive as the PC's faults. PC fanatics (and ditto) tend to simply complain that Macs are too expensive and not as customisable.

YMMV.

What you're seeing is the distilled effect of brand loyalty in Mac users that's actually more assorted and diverse on the PC side. It's not that the PC side doesn't have its zealots or brand loyalists, it's that there are scores more brands to differentiate or choose from-- there's the Windows/Linux, AMD/Intel, Dell/HP/Sony/etc., nVidia/ATi, and many other "rivalries" in the PC world that simply don't come into play with Macs, because Macs aren't offered in a manner that warrants those component battles. As such, we tend to see a strong brand loyalty comparison of Macs and everything else, while in the PC world there's so many varied configuration comparisons and debates that Macs (when not being dismissed) usually just get that whole "cost too much" canard thrown at them or have the fact that they are a closed market environment segregate them from the larger group arguments in the PC crowds.

This is so because this is something Apple has cultivated in order to set them apart from other computer makers. In some ways it's worked to Apple's advantage-- they have a fairly dedicated and enthusiastic consumer base-- and in some ways it's worked to Apple's disadvantage (again, the 5-7% market share).

Darat · 3rd November 2009, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

...snip...

This is so because this is something Apple has cultivated in order to set them apart from other computer makers. In some ways it's worked to Apple's advantage-- they have a fairly dedicated and enthusiastic consumer base-- and in some ways it's worked to Apple's disadvantage (again, the 5-7% market share).

And is why Apple has reacted so strongly to the "I'm a PC" adverts from MS.

Vic Vega · 3rd November 2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do.

What are you going to be using it for? I play guitar and this is a great and very reasonably priced product:

http://www.cakewalk.com/products/guitartrackspro/

I have the previous version and it's excellent.

GreNME · 3rd November 2009, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

And is why Apple has reacted so strongly to the "I'm a PC" adverts from MS.

True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics.

Vic Vega · 3rd November 2009, 09:30 AM

I should probably share my sad story.

I've decided that I'm going to buy a Mac and dual boot next time I buy a computer.

I vowed to give up PCs earlier this year. My PC installed updates automatically, rebooted... and never came back up.

So I had to reload my OS and recover from a backup, which is about as fun as a raging case of the clap. While fuming during the long process of loading the OS and recovering my data, I decided I'd try a Mac.

I need the PC for a couple of music programs like the one I mentioned above, but other than that, I see no reason not to switch. I'll dual boot with all of our family and personal data on the Mac.

Vic Vega · 3rd November 2009, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics.

The "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads do seem to me to be a little mean-spirited, though in most cases they are on the mark.

Yoink · 3rd November 2009, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products).

But these aren't parallel criticisms. The Mac-fanatics are saying that Macs are simply better machines: more reliable, easier to use etc. etc. The people who complain that Macs cost too much aren't saying that there is anything wrong with Macs, they are just saying that they don't see any inherent superiority that justifies the extra cost. They are saying, in other words: "these are all just computers, and there's really nothing much to pick between them."

Stories about Mac conversion experiences are fairly similar. They usually involve some catastrophic failure on the part of a PC (a "this was the last straw" story), the decision to purchase a Mac (despite the higher price tag than an equivalent PC), and the amazing effortlessness and reliability of the experience ever since. (Stories of catastrophic failures of Mac machines are, of course, handwaved away as we've seen already in this thread: "they aren't supposed to do that").

There simply are no such conversion narratives in the other direction--and even the most fanatical Mac fanatic would surely have to admit that Macs do occasionally crash, and that some PC users have a trouble-free experience of their machines. The reason being that there really are no "PC fanatics" in the way that there are "Mac fanatics"--there are Linux fanatics and there are fanatics for particular programs that happen to run on PCs, and there are DIY fanatics whose only option is the PC world. But there's no strong brand identity for "PC." PCs are entirely commodified. To be a "PC fanatic" would be like being a "gasoline fanatic" as a car driver--it's an empty identity.

uruk · 3rd November 2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics.

That is true. From the very begining a great number of Apple's advertising consists of bashing Microsoft and IBM PCs. Anybody remember the infamous "1984" Mac commerical back in the 80's? This goes on to this day the "I'm a Mac" adds. And these are loaded with quite a bit of half truths and exagerations (for humorous effect, no doubt)

Only recently has Microsoft returned in kind with the "Mac is too expensive" adds.

I think Mac "zelots" are more mean spirited because Apple tends to be more mean spirited.

Yoink · 3rd November 2009, 10:15 AM

I don't find Mac zealots "mean spirited" (the ads are another issue). In my experience the zealots (as in this thread) are just people who have found the One True Religion and want to share the Good News. They don't think you're an evil poopy-head for using a PC; they think you're a poor benighted heathen who needs to be enlightened. "Accept Mac as your Personal Computer Savior," they say, "and all your burdens will be lifted from you and you shall enjoy eternal blessedness." It's annoying--like any proselytizing--but it's certainly well meant.

uruk · 3rd November 2009, 10:25 AM

I did a quick google with "Mac horror stories" as the search string and found some interesting stuff. Mac OSX installation problems, crashes, mysterious laptop shutdowns and laptop monitor problems.

Do a search of youtube with "Macbook random shutdown" in the search string.

Also try doing a search withf "hacking a Mac".

Some really interesting eye opening stuff concerning stability of the Mac.

To see the instability of a windows PC, just turn one on. :P

uruk · 3rd November 2009, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Yoink

I don't find Mac zealots "mean spirited" (the ads are another issue). In my experience the zealots (as in this thread) are just people who have found the One True Religion and want to share the Good News. They don't think you're an evil poopy-head for using a PC; they think you're a poor benighted heathen who needs to be enlightened. "Accept Mac as your Personal Computer Savior," they say, "and all your burdens will be lifted from you and you shall enjoy eternal blessedness." It's annoying--like any proselytizing--but it's certainly well meant.

Sorry should have typed "seem mean spirited".

GreNME · 3rd November 2009, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Vic Vega

The "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads do seem to me to be a little mean-spirited, though in most cases they are on the mark.

See, and that's where I disagree. They're very rarely, if ever, on the mark. The same with the Windows one playing the "too expensive" card. But the point of marketing isn't to be honest to the consumer, and Apple has a long history of making creative use of hyperbole to cater to the "cool" image.

Just so you know: Macs update just as often as (if not more than) Windows PCs do, and you have to reboot just as often.

tyr_13 · 3rd November 2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics.

For the most part, I loath Mac ads because they tend to be, a) attack ads, and b) dreadfully misleading if not outright wrong.

My favorite most hated (can that even happen?) Mac ad was when they attacked Microsoft for spending money on advertising, in a freaking advertisement. At any point did the actors go, "wait, what?" reading their lines? How petty, mean, and hypocritical. The standard reply from Mac fans is something along the lines of, "you're defending Micro$oft?"

They most often do these with ads, "Hi, I'm a Mac," and if what they are saying is even half true about one PC maker, they run with it. Drives me nuts. Of course I tend to dislike all attack ads. You can often tell who is the best or at least most popular out there by seeing who everyone else attacks in their ads. With car ads, everyone compares with Toyota for example. Pizza places tend to compare to Pizza Hut. Burger places with McDonalds, although this has begun to change.

I've found that the most zealous and mean spirited fanboys belong to Nintendo and Apple. That says nothing about the product though.

kookbreaker · 3rd November 2009, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics.

I am more amused by the fact that the PC world had to react to the Mac ads at all. I mean c'mon: "Oh noes! The group with 5-10% of the market share is being mean in their ads! We must COUNTERATTACK!!!!!"

Far better it would have been to try and pretend they didn't exist.

dtugg · 3rd November 2009, 11:03 AM

I find the Mac ads be highly annoying. And they're on all the time! I am not going to buy a Mac, probably ever. But if I were on the fence, it would make me a little less likely to buy one.

kookbreaker · 3rd November 2009, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Reeco

Is it just me or are Mac people more anti-PC than PC people are anti-mac?

In my experience, I noticed that Mac people were more anti-Windows than PC per se.

That being said, I do notice plenty of anti-Mac attitudes way in excess of the company's marketshare. I had a IT guy back when I worked at the museum who loathed Macs with a passion and there were a number of them. He was so useless at Mac help that I had to set up the little network for our group, not him. I haven't encountered his type since then (mid-90s).

I saw lots of advocacy that attacked flaws with Windows, certainly, but I don't know how much of it was 'anti' or just trying to advocate.

On the other hand, many pundits who get published have made some virulent anti-Mac comments:

1) I forgot how many times the phrase 'The inevitable death of Apple' has been used since 1981.

2) When the iMacs first came out, there were massive predictions of it being a failure

3) Oh, it was a failure. Didn't you know that?

4) The iPod was also a sales failure. Didn't you know that?

5) In an earthquake, your iMac will actually try to kill you! (I wish I were making that up)

6) There were a couple of pundits who actually seemed to be drooling for the death of Steve Jobs when he got ill.

7) Speaking of company presidents, does anyone else remember Michael Dell's comment about Apple when Steve Jobs became CEO again?

It probably goes both ways, but from where I am standing there seems to be a streak of 'anti' from the PC advocate crowd. In fairness, they probably target Linux even harder.

2nd November 2009, 03:12 PM	#241
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,343	Originally Posted by daSkeptic You are quite correct that this is an area where Macs have not seen a great deal of use. SGI was the big name for a long time, but once things started becoming cheaper it shifted to Windows PCs. There's not really any technological reason to exclude Macs, the market just shifted to where the bulk of the business was. Absolutly true. With cards like the Quadro 4800 becoming available for the Mac and highend 3D animation software like Maya, Houdini and XSI porting to the Mac, we will see more and more effects houses putting Macs into the pipeline. Presently, effects houses render farms are usually bladeserver type PCs running Linux. Autodesk and other software producers ported thier software and renderers to Linux a long time ago. I don't know if you will ever see Mac render farms seeing as the mantra for render farms is cheap, cheap ,cheap. Try writing the check to buy 3000 seats of OSX. Linux cost of $0. per CPU is just right. Autodesk also owns Smoke, Flint and Luster which is used by just about every major film/video studio for editing and processing. The exception being Nuke which was developed by Digital Domain and distributed by The Foundry. Autodesk pretty much has the video/film and effects industry by the short hairs. Which has more than a few effects houses concerned.
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Homer Simpson Last edited by uruk; 2nd November 2009 at 04:01 PM.

2nd November 2009, 03:29 PM	#242
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by daSkeptic While it in no way refutes your core argument, I did find this: http://www.nvidia.com/object/product...or_mac_us.html Interesting blurb on that page: ....With Boot Camp, users can experience the full features and accelerated performance of native Quadro 3D graphics when running professional Windows applications. .... In other-words -use Windows!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

2nd November 2009, 05:16 PM	#245
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	Haven't been following this thread on the assumption that I've seen most of the arguments before. I don't hate Mac products besides the I-Pod. I hate many of the aspects of Mac as a company, but not their computers. However what is Apple's answer to these? That would be this. SOOOOO innovative! Cutting edge!
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Look at the puppy...the puppy is good.

2nd November 2009, 06:11 PM	#246
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,343	Yea. Apple's condition in the PC market place is due to Steve Jobs.
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Homer Simpson

2nd November 2009, 06:17 PM	#247
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by daSkeptic You are quite correct that this is an area where Macs have not seen a great deal of use. SGI was the big name for a long time, but once things started becoming cheaper it shifted to Windows PCs. There's not really any technological reason to exclude Macs, the market just shifted to where the bulk of the business was. Side note: the shift hasn't been solely Windows on the PC for 3D CG work. Linux has some notable movies under its belt-- the Star Wars prequels, the LOTR movies, and I believe the Shrek films if I'm not mistaken, just to name a few. ----- Originally Posted by Modified From my point of view, to make application development easier. I develop a multi-platform application for which some launchers and other "glue" are implemented using shell scripts for UNIX/Linus/OS X. On Windows, the machinery isn't there to do the same with bat files, so applications are required. Development and maintenance for those bits is much heavier on Windows. For our own use in development and testing, we use shell scripts running under Cygwin, but we can't require our users to install it. From most of the rest of the developing world's point of view, application development is doing quite fine. Choosing arbitrary reasons to support your assertion makes no more sense than saying that Apple computers are stupid because they only have one mouse button. Windows has several scripting shells to choose from, they're just not command-line-based. If you want to access the hardware on Windows through scripting-- learn to utilize the Windows Script Host and stop demanding that a square peg go through a round hole. No offense meant, but you should attempt to preach that "application development" speech to the Linux crowd first, since package management is a clustersomething depending on distribution, which is simply a microcosm of platform differences anyway. Macs have pretty tight package installation, but as I pointed out the lack of an uninstaller leaves a huge hole in its elegance factor.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts} Last edited by GreNME; 2nd November 2009 at 06:20 PM.

2nd November 2009, 03:33 PM	#243
Modified Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 1,798	Originally Posted by GreNME Why? From my point of view, to make application development easier. I develop a multi-platform application for which some launchers and other "glue" are implemented using shell scripts for UNIX/Linus/OS X. On Windows, the machinery isn't there to do the same with bat files, so applications are required. Development and maintenance for those bits is much heavier on Windows. For our own use in development and testing, we use shell scripts running under Cygwin, but we can't require our users to install it.

2nd November 2009, 03:37 PM	#244
Modified Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 1,798	Originally Posted by Ducky There are similar equivalents to be installed with powershell. It's only a weakness if all you know is unixy bash scripting and are stuck on a windows server. But PowerShell wasn't standard until Windows 7 (assuming it is there).

2nd November 2009, 06:54 PM	#248
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by GreNME ... stop demanding that a square peg go through a round hole. I think this right here sums things up quite well.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

2nd November 2009, 07:01 PM	#249
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 25,287	Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Features the LHC and multi-dimensional portals, The wonder herb Tribulus, the Catholic church and homosexuals, John Edward visits, some information on Wilhelm Reich and Orgone, we get to know Dave the Happy Singer plus more! What's an "arthwollipot"?

2nd November 2009, 07:12 PM	#250
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,266	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do. I don't know of anything quite like Garageband for Windows, but here's an open source multi-track app (for Windows, OS X, and Linux): http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ Cheap or free audio apps for Mac or Windows: http://www.ncsu.edu/it/multimedia/audiotools.html I know you said Windows, but here's a decent looking, free app for Linux (and OS X): http://ardour.org/ eta: shareware Windows app that looks kind of GB-like: http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/index.htm
	__________________ Last edited by jimtron; 2nd November 2009 at 07:15 PM.

2nd November 2009, 07:26 PM	#251
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do. Acid Music Studio. Nuff said. That's essentially the program GB emulates anyway, since the program hasn't really evolved much since ACID 4.5 back when Sonic Foundry was the company making it (Sony bought Sonic Foundry and re-branded the software). If the $50 is too rich for your blood, it seems Sony offers a limited 'ACID Express' version for a free registration.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

2nd November 2009, 07:32 PM	#252
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,266	Someone dedicated a Web site to their search for a Windows version of GB: http://garagebandforwindows.wordpress.com/
	__________________

2nd November 2009, 07:37 PM	#253
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by jimtron Someone dedicated a Web site to their search for a Windows version of GB: http://garagebandforwindows.wordpress.com/ From that site on Acid: Quote: Bottom line for MIDI. I think it will fit the bill. If you need MIDI support, Sony Acid Music Studio 7 can be your GarageBand for Windows. Acid predates OS X, let alone GarageBand. Sonic Foundry practically wrote the book on loop-based mixing of tracks on the computer. ETA: for reference, I was looping MIDI, a drum machine, my keyboard, bass, guitar, and mic all together in ACID ten years ago.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts} Last edited by GreNME; 2nd November 2009 at 07:38 PM.

2nd November 2009, 07:56 PM	#254
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	Originally Posted by GreNME Side note: the shift hasn't been solely Windows on the PC for 3D CG work. Linux has some notable movies under its belt-- the Star Wars prequels, the LOTR movies, and I believe the Shrek films if I'm not mistaken, just to name a few. We played the third Shrek movie at work all the time, and according to the credits, all rendering services and computers were provided by HP.
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Look at the puppy...the puppy is good.

2nd November 2009, 08:20 PM	#255
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by tyr_13 We played the third Shrek movie at work all the time, and according to the credits, all rendering services and computers were provided by HP. HP machines, but the operating system was supposedly a Linux build. The ILM guys had custom builds for their rendering, and WETA apparently followed similar steps.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

2nd November 2009, 08:37 PM	#256
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	Originally Posted by GreNME HP machines, but the operating system was supposedly a Linux build. The ILM guys had custom builds for their rendering, and WETA apparently followed similar steps. That figures.
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Look at the puppy...the puppy is good.

2nd November 2009, 10:23 PM	#257
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 25,287	Thanks peoples, for you recommendations. I'll be looking into them.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Features the LHC and multi-dimensional portals, The wonder herb Tribulus, the Catholic church and homosexuals, John Edward visits, some information on Wilhelm Reich and Orgone, we get to know Dave the Happy Singer plus more! What's an "arthwollipot"?

3rd November 2009, 02:08 AM	#258
Reeco Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	Is it just me or are Mac people more anti-PC than PC people are anti-mac?
Reeco Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136

3rd November 2009, 02:16 AM	#259
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	What do you expect given the class of the people who buy Macs....
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

3rd November 2009, 02:25 AM	#260
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by Reeco Is it just me or are Mac people more anti-PC than PC people are anti-mac? I'd say it's about equal.
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC.

3rd November 2009, 04:23 AM	#261
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 25,287	Originally Posted by daSkeptic I'd say it's about equal. Actually, I disagree. It seems to be my limited experience that Mac fanatics (and note that I don't believe that all Mac users can be described as "Mac fanatics") tend to be more critical of what they perceive as the PC's faults. PC fanatics (and ditto) tend to simply complain that Macs are too expensive and not as customisable. YMMV.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Features the LHC and multi-dimensional portals, The wonder herb Tribulus, the Catholic church and homosexuals, John Edward visits, some information on Wilhelm Reich and Orgone, we get to know Dave the Happy Singer plus more! What's an "arthwollipot"?

3rd November 2009, 04:30 AM	#262
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 578	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Actually, I disagree. It seems to be my limited experience that Mac fanatics (and note that I don't believe that all Mac users can be described as "Mac fanatics") tend to be more critical of what they perceive as the PC's faults. PC fanatics (and ditto) tend to simply complain that Macs are too expensive and not as customisable. I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products).
	__________________ If you want an expensive toy to mod out and screw around with, Apple would prefer you bought a PC. Last edited by daSkeptic; 3rd November 2009 at 04:31 AM.

3rd November 2009, 04:32 AM	#263
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 25,287	Originally Posted by daSkeptic I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products). That's a fair point.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Features the LHC and multi-dimensional portals, The wonder herb Tribulus, the Catholic church and homosexuals, John Edward visits, some information on Wilhelm Reich and Orgone, we get to know Dave the Happy Singer plus more! What's an "arthwollipot"?

3rd November 2009, 05:31 AM	#264
Reeco Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	Originally Posted by daSkeptic I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products). Would you say that one side is more accurate in its criticisms than the other? I've always used PCs, but will admit that if were ever fortunate enough to have a dedicated music production studio it would be Mac based, purely because that's the way the majority of the pros do it, and therefore I would (probably) have a richer support community to tap into. I wouldn't really care what the anti-Mac crowd say. But I do wonder if people neck-deep in Mac culture would ever swith to PC, based on the level and breadth of the horror stories they must hear all the time.
Reeco Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 136	Last edited by Reeco; 3rd November 2009 at 05:44 AM.

3rd November 2009, 07:59 AM	#265
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Actually, I disagree. It seems to be my limited experience that Mac fanatics (and note that I don't believe that all Mac users can be described as "Mac fanatics") tend to be more critical of what they perceive as the PC's faults. PC fanatics (and ditto) tend to simply complain that Macs are too expensive and not as customisable. YMMV. What you're seeing is the distilled effect of brand loyalty in Mac users that's actually more assorted and diverse on the PC side. It's not that the PC side doesn't have its zealots or brand loyalists, it's that there are scores more brands to differentiate or choose from-- there's the Windows/Linux, AMD/Intel, Dell/HP/Sony/etc., nVidia/ATi, and many other "rivalries" in the PC world that simply don't come into play with Macs, because Macs aren't offered in a manner that warrants those component battles. As such, we tend to see a strong brand loyalty comparison of Macs and everything else, while in the PC world there's so many varied configuration comparisons and debates that Macs (when not being dismissed) usually just get that whole "cost too much" canard thrown at them or have the fact that they are a closed market environment segregate them from the larger group arguments in the PC crowds. This is so because this is something Apple has cultivated in order to set them apart from other computer makers. In some ways it's worked to Apple's advantage-- they have a fairly dedicated and enthusiastic consumer base-- and in some ways it's worked to Apple's disadvantage (again, the 5-7% market share).
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

3rd November 2009, 08:08 AM	#266
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by GreNME ...snip... This is so because this is something Apple has cultivated in order to set them apart from other computer makers. In some ways it's worked to Apple's advantage-- they have a fairly dedicated and enthusiastic consumer base-- and in some ways it's worked to Apple's disadvantage (again, the 5-7% market share). And is why Apple has reacted so strongly to the "I'm a PC" adverts from MS.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

3rd November 2009, 09:22 AM	#267
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Here's a good question. I'm looking for a decent, inexpensive, multi-track recording and sound editing application for Windows. Like Garage Band. Does anyone know of such a thing? The research I've done suggests that I'm going to need to pay rather a lot of money for something, which I really don't want to do. What are you going to be using it for? I play guitar and this is a great and very reasonably priced product: http://www.cakewalk.com/products/guitartrackspro/ I have the previous version and it's excellent.
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth Last edited by Vic Vega; 3rd November 2009 at 09:33 AM.

3rd November 2009, 09:27 AM	#268
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 5,955	Originally Posted by Darat And is why Apple has reacted so strongly to the "I'm a PC" adverts from MS. True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

3rd November 2009, 09:30 AM	#269
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	I should probably share my sad story. I've decided that I'm going to buy a Mac and dual boot next time I buy a computer. I vowed to give up PCs earlier this year. My PC installed updates automatically, rebooted... and never came back up. So I had to reload my OS and recover from a backup, which is about as fun as a raging case of the clap. While fuming during the long process of loading the OS and recovering my data, I decided I'd try a Mac. I need the PC for a couple of music programs like the one I mentioned above, but other than that, I see no reason not to switch. I'll dual boot with all of our family and personal data on the Mac.
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

3rd November 2009, 09:32 AM	#270
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	Originally Posted by GreNME True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics. The "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads do seem to me to be a little mean-spirited, though in most cases they are on the mark.
Vic Vega Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

3rd November 2009, 09:53 AM	#271
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508	Originally Posted by daSkeptic I think the difference is not so much how critical each side is of one another, but rather lies in what each side is criticizing. The Mac-side tends to attack technical issues (e.g. excessive crashes, proliferation of viruses, hardware/driver hell), whereas the PC-side tends to attack business issues (e.g. cost, OS on Apple hardware only, refusal to produce certain types of products). But these aren't parallel criticisms. The Mac-fanatics are saying that Macs are simply better machines: more reliable, easier to use etc. etc. The people who complain that Macs cost too much aren't saying that there is anything wrong with Macs, they are just saying that they don't see any inherent superiority that justifies the extra cost. They are saying, in other words: "these are all just computers, and there's really nothing much to pick between them." Stories about Mac conversion experiences are fairly similar. They usually involve some catastrophic failure on the part of a PC (a "this was the last straw" story), the decision to purchase a Mac (despite the higher price tag than an equivalent PC), and the amazing effortlessness and reliability of the experience ever since. (Stories of catastrophic failures of Mac machines are, of course, handwaved away as we've seen already in this thread: "they aren't supposed to do that"). There simply are no such conversion narratives in the other direction--and even the most fanatical Mac fanatic would surely have to admit that Macs do occasionally crash, and that some PC users have a trouble-free experience of their machines. The reason being that there really are no "PC fanatics" in the way that there are "Mac fanatics"--there are Linux fanatics and there are fanatics for particular programs that happen to run on PCs, and there are DIY fanatics whose only option is the PC world. But there's no strong brand identity for "PC." PCs are entirely commodified. To be a "PC fanatic" would be like being a "gasoline fanatic" as a car driver--it's an empty identity.
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508

3rd November 2009, 09:59 AM	#272
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,343	Originally Posted by GreNME True, but Apple started that fight. Apple seems to dislike reactions in kind to their own nasty marketing tactics. That is true. From the very begining a great number of Apple's advertising consists of bashing Microsoft and IBM PCs. Anybody remember the infamous "1984" Mac commerical back in the 80's? This goes on to this day the "I'm a Mac" adds. And these are loaded with quite a bit of half truths and exagerations (for humorous effect, no doubt) Only recently has Microsoft returned in kind with the "Mac is too expensive" adds. I think Mac "zelots" are more mean spirited because Apple tends to be more mean spirited.
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Homer Simpson Last edited by uruk; 3rd November 2009 at 10:05 AM.

3rd November 2009, 10:15 AM	#273
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508	I don't find Mac zealots "mean spirited" (the ads are another issue). In my experience the zealots (as in this thread) are just people who have found the One True Religion and want to share the Good News. They don't think you're an evil poopy-head for using a PC; they think you're a poor benighted heathen who needs to be enlightened. "Accept Mac as your Personal Computer Savior," they say, "and all your burdens will be lifted from you and you shall enjoy eternal blessedness." It's annoying--like any proselytizing--but it's certainly well meant.
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508

3rd November 2009, 10:25 AM	#274
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,343	I did a quick google with "Mac horror stories" as the search string and found some interesting stuff. Mac OSX installation problems, crashes, mysterious laptop shutdowns and laptop monitor problems. Do a search of youtube with "Macbook random shutdown" in the search string. Also try doing a search withf "hacking a Mac". Some really interesting eye opening stuff concerning stability of the Mac. To see the instability of a windows PC, just turn one on. :P
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Homer Simpson

3rd November 2009, 10:29 AM	#275
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,343	Originally Posted by Yoink I don't find Mac zealots "mean spirited" (the ads are another issue). In my experience the zealots (as in this thread) are just people who have found the One True Religion and want to share the Good News. They don't think you're an evil poopy-head for using a PC; they think you're a poor benighted heathen who needs to be enlightened. "Accept Mac as your Personal Computer Savior," they say, "and all your burdens will be lifted from you and you shall enjoy eternal blessedness." It's annoying--like any proselytizing--but it's certainly well meant. Sorry should have typed "seem mean spirited".
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Homer Simpson