Seven Deadly Sins Question

[Eyeron]

Are the seven deadly sins accepted by protestant and orthodox Christianity? Or are they purely Catholic tradition?

[six7s]

Originally Posted by Eyeron

Are the seven deadly sins accepted by protestant and orthodox Christianity? Or are they purely Catholic tradition?

The Catholics devised the list and the Protestants perfected it

Not to be outdone, the Vatican has added another seven

www.timesonline.co.uk Seven new deadly sins: are you guilty?

Quote:

March 10, 2008

Drug pushers, the obscenely rich, environmental polluters and “manipulative” genetic scientists beware – you may be in danger of losing your mortal soul unless you repent.

After 1,500 years the Vatican has brought the seven deadly sins up to date by adding seven new ones for the age of globalisation. The list, published yesterday in L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, came as the Pope deplored the “decreasing sense of sin” in today’s “securalised world” and the falling numbers of Roman Catholics going to confession.

The Catholic Church divides sins into venial, or less serious, sins and mortal sins, which threaten the soul with eternal damnation unless absolved before death through confession and penitence.

It holds mortal sins to be “grave violations of the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes”, including murder, contraception, abortion, perjury, adultery and lust.

You gotta love the caption below the pic of Benny:

Pope Benedict XVI said that an increasing number of people in the secularised West were making do without God

Its true !!11!!

[Andrew Wiggin]

I like how pedophila is now a sin because it 'exposes the human and institutional fragility of the church'. and abortion is a sin because it 'offends the dignity and rights of women'. I wonder how long it took Darth Ratzinger to come up with that one.

The fact that I find the concept of sin irrelevant notwithstanding, I hardly think the worst part of pedophilia is that it exposes the weakness of the church, and I find a bigger insult to the dignity and rights of women in laws and customs that imply outside control of their reproductive capability.

A

[H'ethetheth]

Lovely how the pope, in his golden citadel and his bejewelled dress, lectures the world on "excessive accumulation of wealth by few" on pain of eternal damnation.

[quarky]

I had sex with the Pope, and am expecting his love child soon.

(Thought I'd mention it here before I sell the story to the tabloids.)




btw, I didn't have an orgasm. The hat was a turn-off.)

[six7s]

Originally Posted by H'ethetheth

Lovely how the pope, in his golden citadel and his bejewelled dress, lectures the world on "excessive accumulation of wealth by few" on pain of eternal damnation.

Yeah... but he's got his fingers crossed... so it doesn't count

---
<aside>

I wonder... Does teh p0pe go to confession? If so... what does he say? Bless me, me, for I have sinned...?

</aside>

[A.A.Alfie]

Just for information, I thought some might like to look at the seven deadly sins. Additionally, there are seven heavenly virtues.

Whether one believes in heaven or hell, religious or atheist, Catholic or Sikh - it matters not - they are still a good in terms of a general moral compass imo.



Sins
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Virtues
Temperance
Wisdom/Generosity
Mercy
Justice
Love
Strength
Truth/humility

[six7s]

Originally Posted by quarky

btw, I didn't have an orgasm. The hat was a turn-off.)

BTW... that ain't his hat

[six7s]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Sins
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

They're not sins... not the first four, anyhoo... they're hobbies!

Underlining... on teh whirled wide web... now that's a sin!!11!!

[H'ethetheth]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Just for information, I thought some might like to look at the seven deadly sins. Additionally, there are seven heavenly virtues.

Whether one believes in heaven or hell, religious or atheist, Catholic or Sikh - it matters not - they are still a good in terms of a general moral compass imo.

They're not bad, but they focus too much on ascetism for my taste.
Hedonism is good thing, and should be shared with as many people as possible.

[Camillus]

Pride isn't a sin it's a virtue.

[H'ethetheth]

Originally Posted by Camillus

Pride isn't a sin it's a virtue.

That depends. It's also a group of lions.

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by Eyeron

Are the seven deadly sins accepted by protestant and orthodox Christianity? Or are they purely Catholic tradition?

BTW, I think you'll find that the seven deadly sins pre date Christianity by quite a long way. Socrates or Plato perhaps.
I'm also pretty sure they don't actually appear in the bible anywhere (as a list at any rate).

Happy to be proved wrong though.

[The Fallen Serpent]

That is not a list of sins, that is a list of motivations.

[Monster Machine]

Originally Posted by Camillus

Pride isn't a sin it's a virtue.

Not when the sky daddy says you're worthless without him...

Monster

[six7s]

Originally Posted by Monster Machine

Not when the sky daddy says you're worthless without him...

Monster

If your sky daddy is the one from the OT, then note that he is a hypocritical schmuck!

The NEW New Testament: Now available on a t-shirt!

Quote:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Just for information, I thought some might like to look at the seven deadly sins. Additionally, there are seven heavenly virtues.

Whether one believes in heaven or hell, religious or atheist, Catholic or Sikh - it matters not - they are still a good in terms of a general moral compass imo.



Sins
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Virtues
Temperance
Wisdom/Generosity
Mercy
Justice
Love
Strength
Truth/humility

Actually, as I've been saying in another thread before, they're an _awful_ moral compass.

E.g., do you know that even as late as Dante, "sloth" didn't mean being "lazy", but merely being depressed and/or demoralized? Yeah, that's one sin so deadly that it destroys your very connection with God and _needs_ confession to a priest to get your ass off the hook. (That's why they're called deadly sins, see?)

And it was a sin because obviously you focus more on the material stuff that got you depressed, than on loving God and admiring God's creation.

I don't know about you, but kicking someone when he's down, and using their depression as a hook to sell them indulgences... I find that abhorrent to the extreme.

E.g., while Dante hooked a "to the extent that it becomes hate or contempt for others" to Pride to make it easier to swallow as a sin, you may want to notice that to this day the Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't make any mention of that condition. Thinking too highly of yourself, your skills, your hard work that got you where you are, are enough to make you a worthless sinner. Even other qualifiers and quantifiers that have been tacked on to it before, usually focus on your opinion of yourself in relation to God, rather than in relation to how you treat your fellow humans.

(And at various times it also included vainglory a.k.a. vanity, and you only needed to buy a coat above what was considered right for your social station, to qualify for that.)

And that just rubs me the wrong way. I genuinely think that the world would be a better place if more people started taking more pride in their work and success, and more blame in their failures.

And even the ones which aren't as blatant an EPIC FAIL as those two, are still basically thought crimes.

Also as a moral compass, well, it already failed. There were plenty of loopholes and redefinitions to justify whatever you wanted. E.g., conquering a neighbour was OK if you didn't say you do it because you want more land (greed) but that you do it for God and as a mere servant of the One True Faith (humility.) E.g., slaughtering every last soldier of an attacked fort's garrison if they didn't surrender when you last asked them to, could be presented as not an act of vengeance (hence, Wrath) but as one of justice, which is already a virtue.

[Jungle Jim]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

And that just rubs me the wrong way. I genuinely think that the world would be a better place if more people started taking more pride in their work and success, and more blame in their failures.

Agreed. There is nothing wrong in pride as long as it is for something you accomplished. George Calin addressed this issue pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmjL6z2jY

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Actually, as I've been saying in another thread before, they're an _awful_ moral compass.

E.g., do you know that even as late as Dante, "sloth" didn't mean being "lazy", but merely being depressed and/or demoralized? Yeah, that's one sin so deadly that it destroys your very connection with God and _needs_ confession to a priest to get your ass off the hook. (That's why they're called deadly sins, see?)

And it was a sin because obviously you focus more on the material stuff that got you depressed, than on loving God and admiring God's creation.

I don't know about you, but kicking someone when he's down, and using their depression as a hook to sell them indulgences... I find that abhorrent to the extreme.

E.g., while Dante hooked a "to the extent that it becomes hate or contempt for others" to Pride to make it easier to swallow as a sin, you may want to notice that to this day the Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't make any mention of that condition. Thinking too highly of yourself, your skills, your hard work that got you where you are, are enough to make you a worthless sinner. Even other qualifiers and quantifiers that have been tacked on to it before, usually focus on your opinion of yourself in relation to God, rather than in relation to how you treat your fellow humans.

(And at various times it also included vainglory a.k.a. vanity, and you only needed to buy a coat above what was considered right for your social station, to qualify for that.)

And that just rubs me the wrong way. I genuinely think that the world would be a better place if more people started taking more pride in their work and success, and more blame in their failures.

And even the ones which aren't as blatant an EPIC FAIL as those two, are still basically thought crimes.

Also as a moral compass, well, it already failed. There were plenty of loopholes and redefinitions to justify whatever you wanted. E.g., conquering a neighbour was OK if you didn't say you do it because you want more land (greed) but that you do it for God and as a mere servant of the One True Faith (humility.) E.g., slaughtering every last soldier of an attacked fort's garrison if they didn't surrender when you last asked them to, could be presented as not an act of vengeance (hence, Wrath) but as one of justice, which is already a virtue.

If you want to apply the words to Dante, the church or elsewhere on th basis of how they have used them then you raise an interesting argument based on their own historical interpretations and applications and the "loopholes and redefinitions".

How that relates to their original meaning (if they can if fact be ascribed to Plate, Socrates or someone else) is a bit beyond me to be honest.

I did say "in my opinion" they can form the basis of a good moral compass for today as they simply relect - in conjunction with the virtues a suggestion of balance, hard work and fairness. I have not suggested anywhere that the natural urges and drives of a human should be unnaturally suppressed by strict adgerence to the virtues nor avoidance through fear (of eternal damnation) of the sins.

You seem to consider my suggestion as some sort of religious argument I'm not quite sure where you get that. You also seem to have an intense dislike of anything that might have a hint of being religious based on your comments above.

IMO they form a pretty good foundation for a good life filled with honesty, love, compassion, service etc.

If you want, I would be happy to chat about how they mnight relate in today's secular society. Again, I have not put these forward in any religious context at all.

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by H'ethetheth

Originally Posted by Camillus

Pride isn't a sin it's a virtue.

That depends. It's also a group of lions.

It can also be very gay. (tada).

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Sins
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

The problem with such definition, is not that Lust or pride or greed is really amoral (so it FAILS as a moral compass), it is rather more that the EXCESS of it can be amoral. But lust in itself is pretty OK, or even pride just like very cleverly pointed out above.

Actually they are all quite normal human feeling, good and bad, which we will all live through. It was quite a good check move by the church to make them sin, because then you are pretty sure the sucker believer will have then "sinned" since they are human.

In reality, only the excess thereof lead to problem.

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

The problem with such definition, is not that Lust or pride or greed is really amoral (so it FAILS as a moral compass), it is rather more that the EXCESS of it can be amoral. But lust in itself is pretty OK, or even pride just like very cleverly pointed out above.

Actually they are all quite normal human feeling, good and bad, which we will all live through. It was quite a good check move by the church to make them sin, because then you are pretty sure the sucker believer will have then "sinned" since they are human.

In reality, only the excess thereof lead to problem.

I agree totally. It is the excesses that are the problem. And your point goes to the heart of what I was saying about not suppressing natural human urges and desires.
for example:
Pride
There is a huge difference between healthy self esteem and uncontrollable ego.

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

I agree totally. It is the excesses that are the problem. And your point goes to the heart of what I was saying about not suppressing natural human urges and desires.
for example:
Pride
There is a huge difference between healthy self esteem and uncontrollable ego.

Then you have to agree that as a moral compass the "sins"fails (as I understand it, it is not the excess which is a deadly sin, it is the feeling in *any* amount)

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Then you have to agree that as a moral compass the "sins"fails (as I understand it, it is not the excess which is a deadly sin, it is the feeling in *any* amount)

In so many words yes. That's why I put the virtues in there too. There is a balance to be found. Natural feelings, desires and impulses are important/essential for human and individual survival and fullfilment, the excesses need to be tempered lest we have total anarchy and every man for himself type scenario. Society is sociable, excesses can be antisocial.

[six7s]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

IMO they form a pretty good foundation for a good life filled with honesty, love, compassion, service etc.

Alas, the christian church was built on Peter, with the aim of a good after-life filled with honesty, love, compassion, service(?) etc.

The good life, as I conceive it, is a happy life.

I do not mean that if you are good you will be happy.

I mean that if you are happy you will be good.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by six7s

Alas, the christian church was built on Peter, with the aim of a good after-life filled with honesty, love, compassion, service(?) etc.

The good life, as I conceive it, is a happy life.

I do not mean that if you are good you will be happy.

I mean that if you are happy you will be good.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

I don't get you.

Sure, the church has adopted them but that's not where I'm coming from.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by quarky

I had sex with the Pope, and am expecting his love child soon.

(Thought I'd mention it here before I sell the story to the tabloids.)




btw, I didn't have an orgasm. The hat was a turn-off.)

You should go for the hat trick and get an abortion.

[six7s]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

I don't get you.

Sure, the church has adopted them but that's not where I'm coming from.

I take exception to the terms 'the church' and 'adopted'

The list of seven deadly sins was devised (not adopted) by the top dogs of the church - the pope, various cardinals, bishops, etc - and imposed on the masses ('scuse teh pun).

I can only guess why they chose to do so... but my hunch is that it was a aimed at 'crowd control' using the catholic church's 'stock in trade'; guilt

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by six7s

I take exception to the terms 'the church' and 'adopted'

The list of seven deadly sins was devised (not adopted) by the top dogs of the church - the pope, various cardinals, bishops, etc - and imposed on the masses ('scuse teh pun).

I can only guess why they chose to do so... but my hunch is that it was a aimed at 'crowd control' using the catholic church's 'stock in trade'; guilt

Why would you take exception? Hardly seems relevant - no offence but sheesh.
Anyway, it's still not where I'm coming from.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

In so many words yes. That's why I put the virtues in there too. There is a balance to be found. Natural feelings, desires and impulses are important/essential for human and individual survival and fullfilment, the excesses need to be tempered lest we have total anarchy and every man for himself type scenario. Society is sociable, excesses can be antisocial.

Except the rationalization for that list wasn't about being social or asocial at all. It was a power grab by the Church, plain and simple.

1. Just about each of them was defined in relation with God instead of with your fellow humans. E.g., Lust wasn't bad because of adultery or rape or whatever, but because spending more time lusting for that hot piece of ass leaves you with less time for God. E.g., Gluttony wasn't argued as bad because you'll get fat and clog the healthcare system (nonexistent at the time), but because supposedly you let yourself be driven by your natural biological instincts instead of by the love of God.

I find that a piss-poor start for any kind of moral or legal system.

2. As a trivial consequence of that warped definition in relationship to God, none of them required any actual damage done to anyone else, or even to act upon them, to be a deadly sin. They're thought crimes, pure and simple. (And at least one, depression a.k.a. sloth, isn't even something you can control.)

E.g., you can get less time left to spend thinking of God if you obsess about your cute neighbour, even if you don't ever do anything about it. In fact, if you just boned her and moved on, you'd probably have more time left for God, right?

3. And I find it warped that thoughts are deadlier sins than actual actions which harm others.

E.g., theft isn't a _deadly_ sin, but greed or envy are. E.g., rape isn't a deadly sin, but lusting over a classmate is. E.g., murder isn't a deadly sin, but wrath is. Etc. In all of those, if you manage to do the former without being motivated by the latter, you're a lot easier off the hook, than the latter without the former.

4. And it's a system warped enough to create plenty of disconnects between actions and the forbidden thoughts.

E.g., yes it's possible to do theft without being motivated by greed or envy, e.g., if you're a kleptomaniac and just do it for the thrill. It slips right through the cracks of that list.

E.g., if you do the atrocity known as "corrective rape" (short story: raping a lesbian to show her how much better a man is at that, and hopefully turn her heterosexual) you're not motivated by either lust or wrath. It's not (mainly) driven either by sexual gratification (lust) nor by revenge (wrath), so again it slips right through the cracks in that deadly sin list.

5. And is it right to blame a generic list of thoughts, anyway? Some of those, even in excess, are actually powerful motivators.

E.g., greed is pretty much what makes capitalism work. We'll legislate against actual harmful actions a person might do for greed, or just to be a prick. But why forbid a motivation which really is why that guy bothered investing in a company instead of shoving the money under a mattress?

E.g., envy not only is why a consumer society works, but even with Dante's addition that it's only bad when you want to deprive someone of something, it doesn't only motivate bad stuff. E.g., if what I seek to deprive someone of is the first place in some competition, I'd say that's actually a good thing.

[A.A.Alfie]

[quote=HansMustermann;5258200]Except the rationalization for that list wasn't about being social or asocial at all. It was a power grab by the Church, plain and simple.

QUOTE]

But again, not even close to where I'm coming from.
I am not Catholic, I'm not defending them as 'just' reasons for any dogma, tenets or behavioural control.


Although I must say your colourful examples above do make me wonder exactly how your moral compass and mind works.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

But again, not even close to where I'm coming from.
I am not Catholic, I'm not defending them as 'just' reasons for any dogma, tenets or behavioural control.

But nevertheless you seem to find them a good moral compass, when the same problems have been treated better and without as many loopholes from purely secular humanist angles.

Plus, you'll notice that none of my objections hinge on their being a Catholic power grab. Blaming a depression victim for their condition is wrong by itself, regardless of who does it.

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Although I must say your colourful examples above do make me wonder exactly how your moral compass and mind works.

Hmm? Did I call something evil that is good on everyone else's moral compass? Lemme guess, it was the rape, right?

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

But nevertheless you seem to find them a good moral compass, when the same problems have been treated better and without as many loopholes from purely secular humanist angles.

Plus, you'll notice that none of my objections hinge on their being a Catholic power grab. Blaming a depression victim for their condition is wrong by itself, regardless of who does it.



Hmm? Did I call something evil that is good on everyone else's moral compass? Lemme guess, it was the rape, right?

Lighten up dude.
But I am sorry about your depression.

[HansMustermann]

I don't have a depression. I just find it wrong to tell someone who's clinically depressed that he'll burn in hell for eternity if he doesn't snap out of it. Just like I wasn't raped either, but I still can find that wrong.

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I don't have a depression. I just find it wrong to tell someone who's clinically depressed that he'll burn in hell for eternity if he doesn't snap out of it. Just like I wasn't raped either, but I still can find that wrong.

Counselling might help.
They have good medicaton for mental health issues these days too.

[six7s]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

...that's not where I'm coming from.

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

...it's still not where I'm coming from.

So?

Where are you coming from?

I'm coming from a position that acknowledges the catholic church is one of the biggest and most profitable businesses in history. This is, obviously, NOT an example of a belief system

I'm NOT coming from a position that accepts the catholic church as being a divine conduit to eternal salvation. That would, obviously, BE an example of a belief system

[A.A.Alfie]

Originally Posted by six7s

So?

Where are you coming from?

I'm coming from a position that acknowledges the catholic church is one of the biggest and most profitable businesses in history. This is, obviously, NOT an example of a belief system

I'm NOT coming from a position that accepts the catholic church as being a divine conduit to eternal salvation. That would, obviously, BE an example of a belief system

Obviously. Your hatred of the Catholic Church comes through loud and clear along with their doctrines and beliefs - even going back hundreds of years. Just how that is relevant to anything I said is lost on me

All I said was that the seven deadly sins, in conjunction with the seven heavenly virtues were a good guide in terms of a moral compass.

Nothing more, nothing less.

If you have other guides fine, I couldn't care less. But dont' attack what I say just because everything about any church is some sort of an abomination in your eyes.

I am not talking about a church, religion or spirituality. Mine was a simple - almost offhand reference - to moral values.

Where do you get yours from?

[six7s]

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Obviously.

Yeah... riiiiiiiiiight....

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Your hatred of the Catholic Church comes through loud and clear

Please, don't try to second-guess how I feel about the catholic church

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

All I said was that the seven deadly sins, in conjunction with the seven heavenly virtues were a good guide in terms of a moral compass.

Indeed. And doinfg so is worthless, without stating why your opinion is worthy of consideration - especially in light of replies that question your opinion

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

If you have other guides fine, I couldn't care less.

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Where do you get your [moral values] from?

Make up your mind...

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

... dont' attack what I say just because everything about any church is some sort of an abomination in your eyes.

Don't try to tell me what I can and cannot do

[A.A.Alfie]

Sorry, I actually mixed Hans' comments with yours.

I want to reiterate a couple of things here too:
-that I am not catholic and I am not defending the catholic church (or any other) at all.
-I am talking about the use of the words in todays society not some 00s of years ago.
-I tossed up the sins and the virtues to assist the discussion and offhandedly said they were imo a good guide.
- It is the excesses of the seven deadly sins -when not moderated -in general terms, make for antisocial behaviour.


I ask again.

What would/do you use? Or does anything go?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Eyeron

Are the seven deadly sins accepted by protestant and orthodox Christianity? Or are they purely Catholic tradition?

Sins?? I thought they were a bucket list.